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- yeezevee
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Reply #2550 - July 27, 2018, 12:52 PM

My goodness you are driving nails in to the published history dear Altara
Quote from: Altara on July 27, 2018, 12:14 PM
1).The readers of the rasm in the 8th c. have no idea of what it is all about.

2). They have no link to the producers of the Quranic texts.

3). Whereas they claim it in the 9th c. : Kaba, Zem Zem, Companion, "prophet", "Mecca", "Medina", Badr, Uhud, etc.

They are very important points to explore .. So in this 9th century Islamic manuals .. looking through history of Islam ..by the time Islam was already in Spain.... let me list that time line.. LOOK AT THESE FREAKING MURDERS, KILLING, REVOLTS, SACKINGS, POISONINGS.....in islam in that 9th century

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763: Foundation of Baghdad. Defeat of the Abbasids in Spain.
767: Khariji state set up by Ibn Madrar at Sijilmasa. Ustad Sees revolt in Khurasan.
772: Battle of Janbi in North Africa. Rustamid. state set up in Morocco.
775: Death or the Abbasid Caliph Mansur, Accession of Mahdi,
777: Battle of Saragossa in Spain.
785: Death of the Caliph Mahdi. Accession of Hadi.
786: Death of Hadi. Accession of Harun ur Rashid.
788: Idrisid state set up in the Maghrib. Death of Abdul Rahman of Spain, and accession of Hisham.
792: Invasion of South France.
796: Death of Hisham in Spain; accession of al Hakam.
799: Suppression of the revolt of the Khazars..
800: The Aghlabid rule is established in North Africa.
803: Downfall of the Barmakids. Execution of Jafar Barmki.
805: Campaigns against the Byzantines. Capture of the islands of Rhodes and Cypress.
809: Death of Harun ur Rashid. Accession of Amin.
814: Civil war between Amin and Mamun. Amin killed and Mamun becomes the Caliph.
815: Shia revolt under Ibn Tuba Tabs.
816: Shia revolt in Makkah; Harsama quells the revolt. In Spain the Umayyads capture the island of Corsica.
817: Harsama killed.
818: The Umayyads of Spain capture the islands of Izira, Majorica, and Sardinia.
819: Mamun comes to Baghdad.
820: Tahir establishes the rule of the Tahirids in Khurasan.
822: Death of AI Hakam in Spain; accession of Abdul Rahman. II.
823: Death of Tahir in Khurasan. Accession of Talha and his deposition. Accession of Abdullah b Tahir.
827: Mamun declares the Mutazila creed as the state religion.
833: Death of Mamun. Accession of Mutasim.
836: Mutasim shifts the capital to Samarra. 837 Revolt of the Jats.
838: Revolt of Babek in Azarbaijan suppressed.
839: Revolt of Maziar in Tabaristan. The Muslims occupy South Italy. Capture of the city of Messina in Sicily.
842: Death of Mutasim, accession of Wasiq.
843: Revolts of the Arabs.
847: Death of Wasiq, accession of Mutawakkil.
850: Mutawakkil restores orthodoxy.
849: Death of the Tahirid ruler Abdullah b Tahir; accession of Tahir II.
852: Death of Abdur Rahman II of Spain;. accession of Muhammad I.
856: Umar b Abdul Aziz founds the Habbarid rule in Sind.
858: Mutawakkil founds the town of Jafariya.
860: Ahmad founds the Samanid rule in Transoxiana.
861: Murder of the Abbasid Caliph Mutawakkil; accession of Muntasir.
862: Muntasir poisoned to death; accession of Mutasin.
864: Zaidi state established in Tabaristan by Hasan b Zaid.
866: Mutasim flies from Samarra, his depostion and accession of Mutaaz.
867: Yaqub b Layth founds the Saffarid rule in Sistan.
868: Ahmad b Tulun founds the Tulunid rule in Egypt.
869: The Abbasid Caliph Mutaaz forced to abdicate, his death and accession of Muhtadi.
870: Turks revolt against Muhtadi, his death and accession of Mutamid.
873: Tahirid rule extinguished.
874: Zanj revolt in South Iraq. Death of the Samanid ruler Ahmad, accession of Nasr.
877: Death of Yaqubb Layth in Sistan, accession of Amr b Layth.
885: Death of Ahmad b Tulun in Egypt, accession of Khamar- wiyiah.
866: Death of Muhammad I the Umayyad ruler of Spain, accession of Munzir. Death of Abdullah b Umar the Habbari ruler of Sind.
888: Death of Munzir the Umayyad ruler of Spain, accession of Abbullah.
891: The Qarmatian state established at Bahrain.
892: Death of the Samanid ruler Nasr, accession of Ismail.
894: The Rustamids become the vassals of Spain.
896: Death of the Tulunid ruler Khamarwiyiah; accession of Abul Asakir Jaish.
897: Assassination of Abul Asakir Jaish; accession of Abu Musa Harun.
898: Qarmatians sack Basra,
902: Death of the Abbasid Caliph Muktafi; death of the Saffarid ruler Amr.
903: Assassination of the Qarmatian ruler Abu Said; accession of Abu Tahir.
905: Abdullah b Hamdan founds the Hamdanid rule in Mosul and Jazira. End of the Tulunid rule in Egypt.
907: Death of the Abbasid Caliph Muktafi; accession of Muqtadir,

so dear Altara question is

In the above list of Islamic rulers who/which regime created those Islamic stories on Kaba, Zem Zem, Companion, "prophet", "Mecca", "Medina", Badr, Uhud, etc..etc..??

with best regards
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #2551 - July 27, 2018, 02:44 PM

Dear yeezevee,

What I remark about what DO the early readers of the Quranic texts as attested by van Putten is not NORMAL if they are the people described by the 9th c. historiographers. Therefore either van Putten has a mental sick because ALL the world knows the story recounted by the 9th c. historiographers, and (Hahaha) this van Putten should be locked in an asylum (Hahaha), either there is another explication.
1).The readers of the rasm in the 7/8th c. have no idea of what it is all about. They show it, because they prefer the readings to the rasm as shows van Putten.
2) They can do it because they have no link to the producers of the Quranic texts as they supposed to have dixit the 9th c. historiographers.
3) Then,the story recounted by the 9th c. historiographers, is inexact, not reliable, or false : you can choose the word you want.

What is responsible of that : it is perfectly traceable. I did it. From the moment where I have understand that there is no "prophet", Mecca, Zem Zem, etc. As proven by the silence of the external sources which corroborate nothing of the core of this story.
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Reply #2552 - July 27, 2018, 03:55 PM

Altara, thanks for an interesting answer.
What did really happened in the "Muslim world" from the time of Muhammad and the next 200 years? Why are there not any written material kept from this time? Why wasn't there made a detailed manual for understanding the "last revelation from the Almighty"? Why isn't Muhammad named in Arabic sources before around 690 if he was the last Messenger from God?
So many questions about the origins of Islam, but hardly anybody have heard about it, both in the ummah and other people. That's strange!!
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Reply #2553 - July 27, 2018, 04:23 PM

Quote from: Altara on July 26, 2018, 11:05 PM
He could even sometimes be active as a theologian or to influence the theology of christianism.
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Reply #2554 - July 27, 2018, 04:45 PM

Quote from: Altara on July 27, 2018, 02:44 PM

What is responsible of that : it is perfectly traceable.

Any book/author you would suggest in order to do this ?
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Reply #2555 - July 27, 2018, 05:29 PM

Quote
The readers of the rasm in the 8th c. have no idea of what it is all about.

Weren't the first Quran exegetes from the israelites movement who were later purged out? Probably the 7 and 8C readers/ exegetes (Christian/Jewish converts) had a much better understanding of what the Quran meant than the 9th C ones, the period when the umbilical cord of Quran and its original cultural milieu was cut.

Or am I missing something?
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Reply #2556 - July 27, 2018, 06:06 PM

Quote from: Marc S on July 27, 2018, 04:45 PM
Any book/author you would suggest in order to do this ?

Mine when it will be published. Because this path is totally genuine.
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Reply #2557 - July 27, 2018, 06:13 PM

Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on July 27, 2018, 03:55 PM
Altara, thanks for an interesting answer.
What did really happened in the "Muslim world" from the time of Muhammad and the next 200 years?

There is no Muhammed. No need of a "prophet" to have the Quran.

Quote
Why are there not any written material kept from this time?

Because there is no need : all the "conquered people" knows very well where come from the Arabs who are taking over their land in the 630's.

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Why wasn't there made a detailed manual for understanding the "last revelation from the Almighty"?

I have a response. Logical, grounded.

Quote
Why isn't Muhammad named in Arabic sources before around 690 if he was the last Messenger from God?

Because it never existed.
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Reply #2558 - July 27, 2018, 06:26 PM

Quote from: mundi on July 27, 2018, 05:29 PM
Weren't the first Quran exegetes from the israelites movement who were later purged out?

The Gallez thesis is interesting. Because what scholars (I think here to "real" scholars, not S.Anthony, Shaddel, et al.) say is always interesting. But Ido not agree with the Gallez thesis : the Ebionites are not at all "messianists" in all of the attestation we have, especially Epiphanius.
The nasara of the Quran are Christians, etc.

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Probably the 7 and 8C readers/ exegetes (Christian/Jewish converts) had a much better understanding of what the Quran meant than the 9th C ones, the period when the umbilical cord of Quran and its original cultural milieu was cut.

Or am I missing something?

You miss. But you have said something interesting. Reread yourself.
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Reply #2559 - July 27, 2018, 07:08 PM

Altara,

No, this has nothing to do with Gallez' theory. This was happening when Arabs have already installed themselves in the ex- Byzantine world.

The earliest extant tafsir is from Muqatil b. Sulayman (dies mid 8th C). He has a very different style and explicitly refers to biblical background to explain dense Quranic passages. (and he is assumed not to have been the only one having done that). It's the Islamic Isrā’īliyyāt tradition.

Seen the biblical context of the Quran and the cultural background of the people living in the centre of power (Palestine/Syria), the interpretation must have been much more in line with that Biblical background (Jewish and Christian) than the later material.

Later on, when culturally more dominant and moving geograpically away from these areas, as I said, the umbilical cord seems to have been cut and a "pure"new doctrine was formed. A doctrine that provided the necessary tools for the new rulers. Forgetting more ancient explanations of the Quran. Because who cares? Something doesnt need to be true to be believed.
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Reply #2560 - July 27, 2018, 07:08 PM

Forthcoming book

Stephen Shoemaker - The Apocalypse of Empire: Imperial Eschatology in Late Antiquity and Early Islam

http://www.upenn.edu/pennpress/book/15883.html
Quote
In The Apocalypse of Empire, Stephen J. Shoemaker argues that earliest Islam was a movement driven by urgent eschatological belief that focused on the conquest, or liberation, of the biblical Holy Land and situates this belief within a broader cultural environment of apocalyptic anticipation. Shoemaker looks to the Qur'an's fervent representation of the imminent end of the world and the importance Muhammad and his earliest followers placed on imperial expansion. Offering important contemporary context for the imperial eschatology that seems to have fueled the rise of Islam, he surveys the political eschatologies of early Byzantine Christianity, Judaism, and Sasanian Zoroastrianism at the advent of Islam and argues that they often relate imperial ambition to beliefs about the end of the world. Moreover, he contends, formative Islam's embrace of this broader religious trend of Mediterranean late antiquity provides invaluable evidence for understanding the beginnings of the religion at a time when sources are generally scarce and often highly problematic.

Scholarship on apocalyptic literature in early Judaism and Christianity frequently maintains that the genre is decidedly anti-imperial in its very nature. While it may be that early Jewish apocalyptic literature frequently displays this tendency, Shoemaker demonstrates that this quality is not characteristic of apocalypticism at all times and in all places. In the late antique Mediterranean as in the European Middle Ages, apocalypticism was regularly associated with ideas of imperial expansion and triumph, which expected the culmination of history to arrive through the universal dominion of a divinely chosen world empire. This imperial apocalypticism not only affords an invaluable backdrop for understanding the rise of Islam but also reveals an important transition within the history of Western doctrine during late antiquity.

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"A work of vast scholarship, original insights, and with a masterful linguistic grasp of primary sources, some of which are being noted by Stephen J. Shoemaker for the first time. The Apocalypse of Empire successfully spans the conceptually and linguistically problematic divide between late antiquity and early Islam."—David Cook, Rice University

"Stephen J. Shoemaker cogently argues that late antique Christianity, Judaism, and Zoroastrianism, as well as early Islam, are all deeply imprinted by a kind of apocalypticism that ascribes a crucial role to imperial conquest and triumph."—Nicolai Sinai, University of Oxford

Which side are you on?
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Reply #2561 - July 27, 2018, 07:14 PM

An article on the same theme:

Stephen Shoemaker - “The Reign of God Has Come”: Eschatology and Empire in Late Antiquity and Early Islam

http://www.academia.edu/7800509/_The_Reign_of_God_Has_Come_Eschatology_and_Empire_in_Late_Antiquity_and_Early_Islam

Which side are you on?
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Reply #2562 - July 27, 2018, 07:21 PM

Quote
In The Apocalypse of Empire, Stephen J. Shoemaker argues that earliest Islam was a movement driven by urgent eschatological belief that focused on the conquest, or liberation, of the biblical Holy Land and situates this belief within a broader cultural environment of apocalyptic anticipation.

One word : lulz. Shoemaker is not an historian, I do no know what it is. A translator, like Shaddel?
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Reply #2563 - July 27, 2018, 07:28 PM

Quote from: mundi on July 27, 2018, 07:08 PM
Altara,

No, this has nothing to do with Gallez' theory.

It is the same. But later.

Quote
This was happening when Arabs have already installed themselves in the ex- Byzantine world.

Yes, same as Gallez, but later (yawn).

Quote
The earliest extant tafsir is from Muqatil b. Sulayman (dies mid 8th C). He has a very different style and explicitly refers to biblical background to explain dense Quranic passages. (and he is assumed not to have been the only one having done that). It's the Islamic Isrā’īliyyāt tradition.

Yes. To comment the Quran, what can we use, the Upanishad, The Illiad?

Quote
Seen the biblical context of the Quran and the cultural background of the people living in the centre of power (Palestine/Syria), the interpretation must have been much more in line with that Biblical background (Jewish and Christian) than the later material.

But the later tafsir are obliged more or less to refer to "biblical" thingies, they cannot do otherwise. Of course this is not as visible as Muqatil but...

Quote
Later on, when culturally more dominant and moving geograpically away from these areas, as I said, the umbilical cord seems to have been cut and a "pure"new doctrine was formed.

See my precedent point.
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Reply #2564 - July 27, 2018, 09:33 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on July 27, 2018, 12:52 PM

so dear Altara question is

In the above list of Islamic rulers who/which regime created those Islamic stories on Kaba, Zem Zem, Companion, "prophet", "Mecca", "Medina", Badr, Uhud, etc..etc..??

with best regards
yeezevee

You need only to ask yourself 2 questions :

- when was the first sira written ?
- when does Mecca show up on non muslim sources ?
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Reply #2565 - July 27, 2018, 10:50 PM

Quote
When does Mecca pop up

In the Armenian sources apparently in 7th and 9th C sources:

Ananias of Sirak (Maybe 7th C unless it's a later interpolation) Morris refers to this.

Thomas Ardsruni: Mecca on page 89: https://books.google.be/books?id=N_JOnwEACAAJ&pg=PP7&hl=nl&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false Gibson has this reference in his work.

The fun part is that both these sources point to Arabia Petraea...
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Reply #2566 - July 28, 2018, 03:25 AM

Shoemaker is a respectable scholar of the Quran and Early Islam. Hardly someone one should laugh at.

Question for Altara: Do you think the Quran is a Christian book? I am still not entirely sure of the scholarly paradigm you follow. Do you see a Christian influence on the Quran; or do you see a Jewish-Christian one? Are you saying that the Nazoreans mentioned in the Quran are Christians, as in Trinitarian Christians?
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Reply #2567 - July 28, 2018, 06:48 AM

Quote from: mundi on July 27, 2018, 10:50 PM
In the Armenian sources apparently in 7th and 9th C sources:

Ananias of Sirak (Maybe 7th C unless it's a later interpolation) Morris refers to this.

Thomas Ardsruni: Mecca on page 89: https://books.google.be/books?id=N_JOnwEACAAJ&pg=PP7&hl=nl&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false Gibson has this reference in his work.

The fun part is that both these sources point to Arabia Petraea...

This guy know the story of the "prophet" better than Arabs of the 7th c. One wonder if his text has been completed later when the story has been written by Ibn Ishaq et al. At this later time, (750/800 ?)it is interesting to note that the completer still think that it is in Arabia Petraea... He does not yet know the "Hijaz".
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Reply #2568 - July 28, 2018, 07:25 AM

Quote from: Mahgraye on July 28, 2018, 03:25 AM
Shoemaker is a respectable scholar of the Quran and Early Islam. Hardly someone one should laugh at.

He's not a scholar of the Quran and Early Islam. See his cursus.
"Stephen Shoemaker (Ph.D. ’97, Duke University) is a specialist on the history of Christianity and the beginnings of Islam. His primary interests lie in the ancient and early medieval Christian traditions, and more specifically in early Byzantine and Near Eastern Christianity. His research focuses on early devotion to the Virgin Mary, Christian apocryphal literature, and Islamic origins."
For me it is a specialist on the history of Mary traditions in Christianity which is interested in beginnings of Islam. His dissertation : The Ancient Traditions of the Virgin Mary’s Dormition and Assumption. Nothing to see with Islam. Sorry but, for me he's an amateur, same level as Shaddel but it is a "professor". That's all.

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Question for Altara: Do you think the Quran is a Christian book? I am still not entirely sure of the scholarly paradigm you follow. Do you see a Christian influence on the Quran; or do you see a Jewish-Christian one? Are you saying that the Nazoreans mentioned in the Quran are Christians, as in Trinitarian Christians?

1/ Do you think it could be?
2/Very interesting statement which says many things on you dear Mahgraye. According to you, I would follow a scholarly paradigm. Meaning that it is normal somehow that I follow one. But you have a problem : you have not perceived yet which one. It is maybe because I have none known and therefore I do not follow any scholarly paradigm?
3/ What do you mean by influence?
4/ Nasara is an Arabic transcript of syriac "Nasrayé", used by Persians to named "Christians"in a pejorative way. (Simon Brelaud & FBC academia, in French : « Quelques réflexions sur la désignation des chrétiens dans l'inscription du mage Kirdīr et dans l’empire sassanide », Parole de l’Orient 43, 2017, 113-136..)
Simon Brelaud :PhD subject (2014-): “Christian presences in Mesopotamia during the Sasanian era (3rd to 7th century)”, under the supervision of Prof. Françoise Briquel-Chatonnet (National Center for Scientific Research, Paris)
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Reply #2569 - July 28, 2018, 09:09 AM

Quote from: Altara on July 28, 2018, 07:25 AM
He's not a scholar of the Quran and Early Islam. See his cursus.
"Stephen Shoemaker (Ph.D. ’97, Duke University) is a specialist on the history of Christianity and the beginnings of Islam...................

I bet Shoemaker did not read that whole book " Quran"

Quote
https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg877082#msg877082

https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg877081#msg877081

So dear Altara in one of those above posts Mahgraye mentioned list of Islamic scholars that I should read to get to the bottom of Early Islamic history and origins of Prophet of Islam and the book Quran...

and I was terrified to read through the works of all those guys, I wonder whether you could add or subtract the names of scholars of early Islam from that list .. whom you consider as true early Islamic scholars..

with best regards
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #2570 - July 28, 2018, 09:25 AM

Quote from: Marc S on July 27, 2018, 09:33 PM
You need only to ask yourself 2 questions :

- when was the first sira written ?
- when does Mecca show up on non muslim sources ?

well Marc on that 2nd question
Quote
- when was the first sira written ?

is it not that Juicy Christian Muḥammad ibn Isḥāq ibn Yasār ibn Khiyār aka ibn Isḥāq through his book Sirat Rasoul Allah

and on that 1st question..
Quote
when does Mecca show up on non muslim sources ?

i am not sure when but say ... we assume mundi.s post reference is close to the truth and THE WORD "Mecca ......Bakkah ...... " whatever... was mentioned in some 7th century
Quote from: mundi on July 27, 2018, 10:50 PM
In the Armenian sources apparently in 7th and 9th C sources:

Ananias of Sirak (Maybe 7th C unless it's a later interpolation) Morris refers to this.

Thomas Ardsruni: Mecca on page 89: https://books.google.be/books?id=N_JOnwEACAAJ&pg=PP7&hl=nl&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false Gibson has this reference in his work.

The fun part is that both these sources point to Arabia Petraea...

but that Mecca/Bakkah could be nothing to do with present Mecca and the alleged birth place of Prophet of Islam..

correct me if you consider that my assumptions are wrong..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #2571 - July 28, 2018, 12:19 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on July 28, 2018, 09:09 AM

So dear Altara in one of those above posts Mahgraye mentioned list of Islamic scholars that I should read to get to the bottom of Early Islamic history and origins of Prophet of Islam and the book Quran...

and I was terrified to read through the works of all those guys, I wonder whether you could add or subtract the names of scholars of early Islam from that list .. whom you consider as true early Islamic scholars..

with best regards
yeezevee

Berg/Crone/Wansbrough/Kerr/Dye/de Prémare/Hawting/Reynold/Cuypers/Segovia/Amir-Moezzi/Borrut/Gilliot/Boisliveau/Hoffman/Zellentin/Sinai/

Outside this precise field, there's more : history of Christianity, Judaism,etc.
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Reply #2572 - July 28, 2018, 01:13 PM

As per Yeezevee's request, I can add the following names to Altara's list of scholars worth reading in Quranic Studies: Mehdi Azaiez, Emran El-Badawi, Marcin Grodzki, Nejmeddine Khalfallah, Manfred Kropp, Daniel Madigan, Michael Pregill, Andrew Rippin, Mun’im Sirry, Emmanuelle Stefanidis, Devin Stewart, Esma Hind Tengour, Tommaso Tesei, Shawkat M. Toorawa, Munther Younes, Abraham Winitzer, Stephen Shoemaker, Édouard-Marie Gallez, Asma Hilali, Angelika Neuwirth, Frédéric Imbert.
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Reply #2573 - July 28, 2018, 02:10 PM

Azaiez ,Kropp, Stefanidis, Devin Stewart, Gallez (!),Imbert. Do not need the others except for specific thematic articles. In keeping in mind many things (faith, etc).

My Gallez they are worn out... I have to buy them back. I'll keep the ancients, I have an autograph of him. Heard that he was sick...
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Reply #2574 - July 28, 2018, 02:56 PM

On Mecca, Ananias of Sirak, p71

https://archive.org/stream/TheGeographyOfAnaniasOfSirak/The%20Geography%20of%20Ananias%20of%20Sirak#page/n55/mode/2up/search/Mecca

This is a geography book without maps (probably maps got lost) and it is apparently 7th C. Mecca is assumed to be a later interpolation "because it cannot be that it is an Arabia Petraea"".
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Reply #2575 - July 28, 2018, 07:22 PM

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Do not need the others except for specific thematic articles. In keeping in mind many things (faith, etc).

Can't say that I am familiar with all of the scholars I named, but most of them are not Muslim, if that is what you mean. I recommend reading Munther Younes. Great scholar. His articles are on the linguistic aspect of the Quran are brilliant. Soon his book on what he thinks was the original Quran is going to be published.

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My Gallez they are worn out... I have to buy them back. Roll Eyes I'll keep the ancients, I have an autograph of him. Heard that he was sick...

Did not understand. What about Gallez? You also put a (!) after his name. Please rephrase the sentence again.
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Reply #2576 - July 28, 2018, 07:34 PM

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1/ Do you think it could be?

Yeah. Certainly possible. One cannot deny the Christian influence of the Quran. It is, as Devin Stewart put it, “irrefutable”. What about you? Do you think it could be Christian?

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2/Very interesting statement which says many things on you dear Mahgraye. According to you, I would follow a scholarly paradigm. Meaning that it is normal somehow that I follow one. But you have a problem : you have not perceived yet which one. It is maybe because I have none known and therefore I do not follow any scholarly paradigm?

Haha. True. Maybe you have paradigm of your own. But I did notice that you emphasized Christianity on several occasions. You also seem to be a fan of Dye, who also sees Christians traces in the Quran. Luxenberg is another scholar that you agree with on major point: Muhammad was Jesus. Fits nicely with the idea that early Islam was a Christian sect. But who knows. Looking forward to reading your book? Could I take a look at draft or something? A brief preview, if you like?

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3/ What do you mean by influence?

Not sure how to put it, but I think the above clarifies my usage of the word.

Quote
4/ Nasara is an Arabic transcript of syriac "Nasrayé", used by Persians to named "Christians"in a pejorative way. (Simon Brelaud & FBC academia, in French : « Quelques réflexions sur la désignation des chrétiens dans l'inscription du mage Kirdīr et dans l’empire sassanide », Parole de l’Orient 43, 2017, 113-136..)
Simon Brelaud :PhD subject (2014-): “Christian presences in Mesopotamia during the Sasanian era (3rd to 7th century)”, under the supervision of Prof. Françoise Briquel-Chatonnet (National Center for Scientific Research, Paris)

So, Nasara is just another word for ordinary Christians (albeit a pejorative one)? So, it has nothing to do with the Jewish-Christian sect the Nazoreans?

Since this somewhat ties into Gallez's thesis, why do you not think that the Nazoreans wrote the Quran?
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Reply #2577 - July 28, 2018, 08:55 PM

Quote from: Mahgraye on July 28, 2018, 07:22 PM
Can't say that I am familiar with all of the scholars I named, but most of them are not Muslim, if that is what you mean. I recommend reading Munther Younes. Great scholar. His articles are on the linguistic aspect of the Quran are brilliant. Soon his book on what he thinks was the original Quran is going to be published.

I did not really think about Muslim faith. I'm prudent even with Gallez !

Quote
Did not understand. What about Gallez? You also put a (!) after his name. Please rephrase the sentence again.

Because I've forgetten him in my first list!
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Reply #2578 - July 28, 2018, 09:06 PM

Quote
I did not really think about Muslim faith. I'm prudent even with Gallez !

How so?
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Reply #2579 - July 28, 2018, 09:20 PM

Quote from: Mahgraye on July 28, 2018, 07:34 PM
Yeah. Certainly possible. One cannot deny the Christian influence of the Quran. It is, as Devin Stewart put it, “irrefutable”. What about you? Do you think it could be Christian?

Influenced by Christianity, certainly. I'm afraid that we cannot say more about it.

Quote
Haha. True. Maybe you have paradigm of your own. But I did notice that you emphasized Christianity on several occasions. You also seem to be a fan of Dye, who also sees Christians traces in the Quran. Luxenberg is another scholar that you agree with on major point: Muhammad was Jesus. Fits nicely with the idea that early Islam was a Christian sect. But who knows. Looking forward to reading your book? Could I take a look at draft or something? A brief preview, if you like?

1/ I appreciate Dye (and others) not because of what they say, but because of their attitude : asking questions.
2/ I do not say that Muhammad was Jesus. I say that in the Dome of the Rock, the only "prophet" in question in the inscription is Jesus and he is qualified as "muhammad". This is not at all the same thing.

Quote
So, Nasara is just another word for ordinary Christians (albeit a pejorative one)? So, it has nothing to do with the Jewish-Christian sect the Nazoreans?

Yes.

Quote
Since this somewhat ties into Gallez's thesis, why do you not think that the Nazoreans wrote the Quran?

There's many reason but... just one : unlike the Manicheans, there is no traces of the Nazoreans after the 4th c. Nor in Palestine, Iraq or Yemen. It seems bizarre that they reappears in the 6 or 7th c. nor in Greek or Syriac.
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