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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3210 - August 16, 2018, 11:52 PM
    Your assessment of the verse is identical to that of the later Muslim mufassirūn, reading the verse all too literally, without reading between the line and disregarding the Quranic milieu and its rhetoric. Imagine if someone were to say that Q 5:116 says “my mother”, ergo per the Quran, the Virgin Mary is Divine and part of the Trinity, and thus end of story. Hardly convincing.

    As always, I am writing this with all due respect. This was not written with an ill intent or a condescending tone.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3211 - August 17, 2018, 02:30 AM
    Going back to Q 9:31 and Matteo's alternative reading thereof, there is an interesting observation made by Shawkat Toorawa that might be of importance to the matter. According to Toorawa, the majority reading, wa-l-masīḥa (accusative), is used here in a unusual sense, compared to wa-l-masīḥi (genitive), which is the minority reading (apparently, some read it in genitive). This seems to back up Matteo's proposal that the verse is more tangible if al-masīḥ is not read in the accusative, but in the genitive, regardless if his interpretation of the verse as supporting the divinity of Jesus is true or not. What is your take on this, guys?



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3212 - August 17, 2018, 06:49 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 16, 2018, 11:49 PM
    For Reynolds, see: Gabriel Said Reynolds, “The Muslim Jesus: Dead or Alive?”, Bulletin of SOAS, 72, 2 (2009), 237–258.


    2009
    The first episode : 2015
    End of story for Reynolds. (yawn)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3213 - August 17, 2018, 07:40 AM
    2015?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3214 - August 17, 2018, 07:41 AM
    There is really no yawn here, Altara. Have you read the article by Reynolds that I referenced?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3215 - August 17, 2018, 08:51 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 16, 2018, 11:52 PM
    Your assessment of the verse is identical to that of the later Muslim mufassirūn,


    Sometimes they read the Quran correctly LOL! John of Damascus (720) says that the muhajirun thinks that it is the shadow of Jesus who have been crucified, (cited by Dye in the episode...) It is interesting, Something has replaced him. The episode takes this direction : someone has replaced Jesus. Jesus is not dead on the cross.

    Quote
    reading the verse all too literally, without reading between the line and disregarding the Quranic milieu and its rhetoric.


     It's a trick of God to the Jews,  in the episode, Toorawa says it explicitly.

    Quote
    Imagine if someone were to say that Q 5:116 says “my mother”, ergo per the Quran, the Virgin Mary is Divine and part of the Trinity, and thus end of story. Hardly convincing.


     Christians venerate Mary as mother of God. Like God. The Quran considers that the Christians considers Mary like God.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3216 - August 17, 2018, 08:53 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 17, 2018, 07:40 AM
    2015?


    Sometimes you have (with all due respect) a big problem of comprehension.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3217 - August 17, 2018, 08:57 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 16, 2018, 11:49 PM
    For Reynolds, see: Gabriel Said Reynolds, “The Muslim Jesus: Dead or Alive?”, Bulletin of SOAS, 72, 2 (2009), 237–258.

    https://www.academia.edu/24493806/_The_Muslim_Jesus_Dead_or_Alive_Bulletin_of_the_School_of_Oriental_and_African_Studies_72_2009_237-58
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3218 - August 17, 2018, 09:02 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 17, 2018, 02:30 AM
    Going back to Q 9:31 and Matteo's alternative reading thereof, there is an interesting observation made by Shawkat Toorawa that might be of importance to the matter. According to Toorawa, the majority reading, wa-l-masīḥa (accusative), is used here in a unusual sense, compared to wa-l-masīḥi (genitive), which is the minority reading (apparently, some read it in genitive). This seems to back up Matteo's proposal that the verse is more tangible if al-masīḥ is not read in the accusative, but in the genitive, regardless if his interpretation of the verse as supporting the divinity of Jesus is true or not. What is your take on this, guys?


    As Kropp has demonstrated, there is no declension effective in the Quran : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declension
    The declension in this text is ineffective as the words are placed like in all analytic languages which have no declension like English, Spanish, French, etc. The declension in Quranic Arabic is artificial and were the work of the grammarians. Kropp is a scientific and he is perfectly right about that. A language is determined by the place words have in a phrase. I practised Latin and Greek : the word can be placed anywhere, the phrase is understandable because of declension. It is not possible in  English, Spanish, French because they have no declension. The rasm of Quranic Arabic is like English, Spanish, French regarding the place of the words and it needs none declension. The fact that grammarians added declension whereas there is no need to understand the phrase is an artificial feature added by them (because there was use of declension in "poetry", etc). This has complicated the understanding of the text which was more simple to understand.
    In conclusion, genitive, accusative, etc in the Quranic text are nonsense and cannot be the ground to understand it. Matteo (et al.) makes a mistake in considering that declension gives an indication about the meaning of the text.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3219 - August 17, 2018, 09:03 AM
    Quote from: zeca on August 17, 2018, 08:57 AM
    https://www.academia.edu/24493806/_The_Muslim_Jesus_Dead_or_Alive_Bulletin_of_the_School_of_Oriental_and_African_Studies_72_2009_237-58


    Listen to what he says in 2015.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3220 - August 17, 2018, 10:46 AM
    https://www.arte.tv/fr/videos/RC-012163/jesus-et-l-islam/

    Jesus and Islam (2015), episode 2, 8min,45 s : Patricia Crone : "Jesus does not die on the cross in the Quran." (yawn)...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3221 - August 17, 2018, 04:21 PM
    Quote from: Altara on August 17, 2018, 08:51 AM
    Sometimes they read the Quran correctly LOL! John of Damascus (720) says that the muhajirun thinks that it is the shadow of Jesus who have been crucified, (cited by Dye in the episode...) It is interesting, Something has replaced him. The episode takes this direction : someone has replaced Jesus. Jesus is not dead on the cross.

     It's a trick of God to the Jews,  in the episode, Toorawa says it explicitly.



    This quranic verse looks like docetism. Maybe this is a clue to the original milieu where the Quran was made up.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docetism
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3222 - August 17, 2018, 04:25 PM
    On a different topic, what do you think of this egyptian papyrus that mention a calendar called "the year according to the jurisdiction of the believers" that tie up with the hijri calendar. What do you think this jurisdiction of believers relates to ?

    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/papyri/plouvre
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3223 - August 17, 2018, 05:21 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on August 17, 2018, 04:21 PM
    This quranic verse looks like docetism. Maybe this is a clue to the original milieu where the Quran was made up.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docetism


    It look like ; same idea (Jesus is not died on the cross) but not at all for same specific reason that gnostics of the 2nd c. had this idea. So it is not docetism.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3224 - August 17, 2018, 05:59 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on August 17, 2018, 04:25 PM
    On a different topic, what do you think of this egyptian papyrus that mention a calendar called "the year according to the jurisdiction of the believers" that tie up with the hijri calendar. What do you think this jurisdiction of believers relates to ?

    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/papyri/plouvre

    The paper of Ragib about it : http://www.ifao.egnet.net/anisl/41/10/ (French)
    It is an interesting appellation which proves, if it was necessary, that there is no "hijra" (therefore Mecca/Kaba/Zem-Zem, et al.) or anything like that, these people did not know the story of a "prophet", it comes later.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3225 - August 17, 2018, 08:26 PM
    Quote from: Altara on August 17, 2018, 05:21 PM
    The paper of Ragib about it : http://www.ifao.egnet.net/anisl/41/10/ (French)


    Thanks for the link.

    Quote
    It is an interesting appellation which proves, if it was necessary, that there is no "hijra" (therefore Mecca/Kaba/Zem-Zem, et al.) or anything like that, these people did not know the story of a "prophet", it comes later.


    It does indeed but it still bears a religious tone while I would have expected that calendar to highlight the beginning of an era that would be  more around "political events".
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3226 - August 17, 2018, 08:47 PM
    Ragib article - calendar

    This hijra thing does seem to be a later fantasy. But what event marked the year zero of the Arabs? Probably a victory of some kind?

    Religious tone: Indeed, apparently the Arabs did motivate their conquests religiously from the beginning. Their ideological inspiration must have been quite strong since they were not absorbed in the existing  "leitkultur" of Byzantines, Syriacs, Zaroastrians or Jews.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3227 - August 17, 2018, 08:52 PM
    Ragib article:

    An explanation is given on the Lunar calendar of the Arabs. Which group of peoples also  used the lunar calendar in Palestine and Arabia? The Arabs kept on using this lunar calendar in a milieu where the solar calendar was in use and obviously was more practical. This means that the lunar calendar was deeply entrenched in Arab culture.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3228 - August 17, 2018, 09:35 PM
    Quote from: mundi on August 17, 2018, 08:47 PM
    Ragib article - calendar

    This hijra thing does seem to be a later fantasy. But what event marked the year zero of the Arabs? Probably a victory of some kind?


    Reflect. As you read French (?) Cf. Les fondations de l'islam...

    Quote
    Religious tone: Indeed, apparently the Arabs did motivate their conquests religiously from the beginning. Their ideological inspiration must have been quite strong since they were not absorbed in the existing  "leitkultur" of Byzantines, Syriacs, Zaroastrians or Jews.


    I do not see any "global religious" tone in sanat qaḍā’ al-mu’minīn I see a specific Quranic one via "al-mu’minīn".
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3229 - August 17, 2018, 09:47 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on August 17, 2018, 08:26 PM
    Thanks for the link.

    It does indeed but it still bears a religious tone while I would have expected that calendar to highlight the beginning of an era that would be  more around "political events".


    It can be a political event. R. Kerr has noted that it could be the starting of the counter attack of Heraclius in April  622. An interesting option.
    But I think to another option, which is only known by Muslim sources. Not interpreted in the way they interpreted it. An event before 632, of course.
    As you read French (?) Cf. Les fondations de l'islam...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3230 - August 18, 2018, 01:00 AM
    YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClHRDqUAnf5lJpHJ7LAlOeA/videos

    Quote
    قناة علمانية  علمية وأكاديمية متخصصة في تاريخ الاديان والافكار. خصوصا تاريخ الاسلام المبكر. وتاريخ القران هذه القناة تساند السلم و الديمقراطية والحرية والمساواة  والتعايش بين كل الاديان و المذاهب ملاحظة هامة :القناة محجوبة لبضعة أسابيع ثم ستعود بفيديوهات جديدة من آخر أبحاث المؤرخين  الألمانيين (منها: المسلمون لم يغزو ابدا الأندلس.. براهين التاريخ منها :العرب غزوا المغرب الكبير كمسيحيين اريوسيين وليس مسلمين

    This Channel is dedicated to production of high education documentaries about history of religions and of scientific ideas...


    A YouTube channel by K Tenessy is a great resource for Quranic Studies that is largely built on French research on the Quran, and a host of others: Gallez, Bonnet-Eymard, de Prémare, Luxenberg, etc. especially that of Gallez. French speakers such as Altara would be delighted for this channel.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3231 - August 18, 2018, 08:05 AM
    Quote from: mundi on August 17, 2018, 08:52 PM
    Ragib article:

    An explanation is given on the Lunar calendar of the Arabs. Which group of peoples also  used the lunar calendar in Palestine and Arabia? The Arabs kept on using this lunar calendar in a milieu where the solar calendar was in use and obviously was more practical. This means that the lunar calendar was deeply entrenched in Arab culture.


    Lunar calendar is adopted by the muhajirun because of the Quran which uses it (Q 18). In my view that is the reason.

    Quote
    This means that the lunar calendar was deeply entrenched in Arab culture.


    I'm not really sure of that. In my view before they used locals calendar of the Empires : Roman and Persian.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3232 - August 18, 2018, 08:30 AM
    Quote from: mundi on August 17, 2018, 08:52 PM
    Ragib article:  
    Quote
    An explanation is given on the Lunar calendar of the Arabs. Which group of peoples also  used the lunar calendar in Palestine and Arabia? The Arabs kept on using this lunar calendar in a milieu where the solar calendar was in use and obviously was more practical. This means that the lunar calendar was deeply entrenched in Arab culture

    .

      THAT COULD ALSO MEAN THERE WERE NO ARABS BEFORE ISLAM

    If that paper was published before internet times there is an excuse to write such silly statement but in 2017 it is nonsense dear mundi. I guess on Islam., apart having bias for Islam or against Islam., it appears French authors  do not read English publications/books  and English authors  do not read French books and publications.,  and Mullahs and Imams that preach Islam READ NOTHING except hadith and selective quran verses

    Quote
    Lunar calendar is any dating system based on a year consisting of synodic months((—i.e., complete cycles of phases of the Moon. In every solar year (or year of the seasons), there are about 12.37 synodic months. ))) Therefore, if a lunar-year calendar is to be kept in step with the seasonal year, a periodic intercalation (addition) of days is necessary.

    The Sumerians were probably the first to develop a calendar based entirely on the recurrence of lunar phases. Each Sumero-Babylonian month began on the first day of visibility of the new Moon. Although an intercalary month was used periodically, intercalations were haphazard, inserted when the royal astrologers realized that the calendar had fallen severely out of step with the seasons. Starting about 380 BC, however, fixed rules regarding intercalations were established, providing for the distribution of seven intercalary months at designated intervals over 19-year periods. Greek astronomers also devised rules for intercalations to coordinate the lunar and solar years. It is likely that the Roman republican calendar was based on the lunar calendar of the Greeks.

    Quote
    Lunar calendars remain in use among certain religious groups today. The Jewish calendar, which supposedly dates from 3,760 years and three months before the Christian Era (BCE) is one example. The Jewish religious year begins in autumn and consists of 12 months alternating between 30 and 29 days. It allows for a periodic leap year and an intercalary month.

    Quote
    Another lunar calendar, the Muslim, dates from the Hegira—July 15, AD 622, the day on which the prophet Muḥammad began his migration from Mecca to Medina. It makes no effort to keep calendric and seasonal years together.


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3233 - August 18, 2018, 08:40 AM
    Quote from: Altara on August 18, 2018, 08:05 AM
    ....................... muhajirun because of the Quran which uses it (Q 18). ..................

    I am just curious to know your views on that word .. who were these guys ? who were the first group of muhajirun?

    Quote
    Muhajirun (Arabic: المهاجرون‎ The Emigrants) were the first converts to Islam and the Islamic Prophet Muhammad's advisors and relatives, who emigrated with him from Mecca to Medina, the event known in Islam as The Hijra. The early Muslims from Medina are called the Ansar ("helpers"

    when we are questioning the existence of Prophet of Islam Muhammad .. that word looses its ((ISLAMIC)) meaning ..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3234 - August 18, 2018, 09:19 AM
    Quote
    when we are questioning the existence of Prophet of Islam Muhammad .. that word looses its ((ISLAMIC)) meaning ..


    This meaning only  : "Muhajirun (Arabic: المهاجرون‎ The Emigrants) were the first converts to Islam " bla bla bla...
    Not all the meanings  Wink

    Quote
    I am just curious to know your views on that word .. who were these guys ? who were the first group of muhajirun?


    The question is (for me...) first what means "muhajirun". Of course I have a response, but as I have already explained why, I cannot give it here. But I have one! Logical, coherent, relating to history. To understand, you have to put aside all the narratives of the 8th and 9th c. (If we trust that Ibn Ishaq has really composed the sira before his (supposed) death in 767.) We have his work only after 800... by Ibn Hisham...

    Maybe we could ask to our friend here whose the name is "muhajirun" but in Syriac. I mean our dear friend "Mahgraye"  Wink

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3235 - August 18, 2018, 09:40 AM
    Quote from: Altara on August 18, 2018, 09:19 AM
    .................  Wink ....I cannot give it here......   Wink

     Cheesy Cheesy  well  you don't need to write all that stuff for me  but those words and winks would have been enough.....

    but i am very glad those who are publishing papers on Islam through academic departments are reading this forum....

    with  best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3236 - August 18, 2018, 09:42 AM
    Quote
    it appears French authors  do not read English publications/books  and English authors  do not read French books and publications.,  and Mullahs and Imams that preach Islam READ NOTHING except hadith and selective quran verses


    Interesting point. Yūsuf RĀĠIB to my knowledge is not a scholar of Early Islam, Quran, etc. I even do not know who he is. Therefore, it seems logic that he can write some nonsense.

    But the French authors scholar of Early Islam, Quran, etc., reads English publications/book. As French  is a difficult language, the contrary is not true. But the bizarre thing is that translation exists ; how can it be that de Prémare, Gallez, Gobillot, are not translated in English? Whereas a guy like Amir-Moezzi is? I have some ideas but it would be outside the topic of this thread. But it is related, more or less (I think...) to a bizarre fact that I noted in academia.
    How can it be possible that a guy like Shaddel, translator, who is not graduated, can get 500+ followers on academia, whereas a guy like Reynolds has only 770?  Wink


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3237 - August 18, 2018, 09:55 AM
    Quote from: Altara on August 18, 2018, 09:42 AM
    ........... bizarre fact that I noted in academia..............

    How can it be possible that a guy like Shaddel, translator, who is not graduated, can get 500+ followers on academia, whereas a guy like Reynolds has only 770?  Wink


    well  it has very simple answer and i know the answer for that but  but
    Quote from: Altara on August 18, 2018, 09:19 AM
    . Wink...................... I cannot give it here..........

     Cheesy  any ways.,  the other important subject that is hiding behind niqab and  need to be explored in very details  is this Roman Emperor Heraclius  and Prophet  of Islam chit-chat that deals with the true history in those critical times between the year 620 and 650.  they write/publish only silly stories not real history..

    any work from your side on that?

    Quote
    Heraclius was the Emperor of the Byzantine Empire from 610 to 641. He was responsible for introducing Greek as the Eastern Roman Empire's official language. Wikipedia

    Born: Cappadocia
    Died: February 11, 641 AD, Constantinople
    Nationality: Byzantine
    Parents: Heraclius the Elder, Epiphania
    Siblings: Theodore
    Children: Constantine III, Heraklonas, Eudoxia Epiphania, John Athalarichos, Martina, Marino, Davi, Augustina

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3238 - August 18, 2018, 10:16 AM
    Heraclius was dealing with how to save the Empire from the Persians. "Prophet  of Islam " did not exist in "Mecca" or elsewhere, as we know it.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3239 - August 18, 2018, 10:58 AM
    Quote from: Altara on August 18, 2018, 09:19 AM
    The question is (for me...) first what means "muhajirun". Of course I have a response, but as I have already explained why, I cannot give it here. But I have one! Logical, coherent, relating to history. To understand, you have to put aside all the narratives of the 8th and 9th c.

    Something to do with a group displaced for one reason or another in the conflict between Romans and Persians?
    Which side are you on?
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