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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3240 - August 18, 2018, 11:03 AM

    Quote
    Something to do with a group displaced for one reason or another in the conflict between Romans and Persians?


    You're still in the traditional account. Get rid of it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3241 - August 18, 2018, 12:10 PM

    It can be a political event. R. Kerr has noted that it could be the starting of the counter attack of Heraclius in April  622. An interesting option.
    But I think to another option, which is only known by Muslim sources. Not interpreted in the way they interpreted it. An event before 632, of course.
    As you read French (?) Cf. Les fondations de l'islam...



    Yeah I know R. Kerr assumption. Issue is the date doesn't really tie up as the Hijra calendar doesn't start in April. At some stage, also because the Hegira does last 3 months or so meaning the time it took for Muhammad to get from Mecca to Medina, I thought at some stage that it might had been related to the time spent after he left Constantinople when he trained his army before engaging the persians. But Heraclius ' biography on the precise timeline of events there is not so precise and , once again, it doesn't seem to tie up with the muslim timeline.

    I know De Premarre's book  ; I will read it again as I am not sure of what you are referring to. Charter of Medina maybe ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3242 - August 18, 2018, 12:33 PM


    Quote
    I know De Premarre's book  ; I will read it again as I am not sure of what you are referring to. Charter of Medina maybe ?




    I am referring to an event which is only known by Muslim sources but outside of "Mecca/Medina" (then  It is not Charter of Medina.) . Not interpreted in the way they interpreted it.
    De Prémare notices it as he notices many events. Reread it. You have to found yourself.






  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3243 - August 18, 2018, 01:11 PM

    Heraclius was dealing with how to save the Empire from the Persians. "Prophet  of Islam " did not exist in "Mecca" or elsewhere, as we know it.


    well just for time being., let us forget  Islam/Mecca/Prophet of Islam Muhammad etc..etc....  but focus on Heraclius and Heraclius elder(his father)  and their empire and their subordinate rulers around Arabian peninsula .

    Let me start this with wiki links

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclius
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclius_the_Elder

    Quote
    Heraclius (Latin: Flavius Heracles Augustus; Greek: Φλάβιος Ἡράκλειος, translit. Flavios Iraklios; c. 575 – February 11, 641) was the Emperor of the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire from 610 to 641.[A 1]

    He was responsible for introducing Greek as the Eastern Roman Empire's official language. His rise to power began in 608, when he and his father, Heraclius the Elder, the exarch of Africa, led a revolt against the unpopular usurper Phocas.

    Heraclius's reign was marked by several military campaigns. The year Heraclius came to power, the empire was threatened on multiple frontiers. Heraclius immediately took charge of the Byzantine–Sasanian War of 602–628. The first battles of the campaign ended in defeat for the Byzantines; the Persian army fought their way to the Bosphorus but Constantinople was protected by impenetrable walls and a strong navy, and Heraclius was able to avoid total defeat. Soon after, he initiated reforms to rebuild and strengthen the military. Heraclius drove the Persians out of Asia Minor and pushed deep into their territory, defeating them decisively in 627 at the Battle of Nineveh. The Persian king Khosrau II was overthrown and executed by his son Kavadh II, who soon sued for a peace treaty, agreeing to withdraw from all occupied territory. This way peaceful relations were restored to the two deeply strained empires.

    Quote
    Heraclius soon experienced a new event, the Muslim conquests. Emerging from the Arabian Peninsula, the Muslims quickly conquered the Sasanian Empire. In 634 the Muslims marched into Roman Syria, defeating Heraclius's brother Theodore. Within a short period of time, the Arabs conquered Mesopotamia, Armenia and Egypt.

    Heraclius entered diplomatic relations with the Croats and Serbs in the Balkans. He tried to repair the schism in the Christian church in regard to the Monophysites, by promoting a compromise doctrine called Monothelitism. The Church of the East (commonly called Nestorian) was also involved in the process.[4] Eventually this project of unity was rejected by all sides of the dispute.


    so question is on that highlighted paragraph..   do you consider it as story and error of history propagated  by Islamic propaganda stories??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3244 - August 18, 2018, 01:27 PM

    2015? Here is what Reynolds wrote in 2018:

    Quote
    In fact the verse does not deny that Jesus was crucified or that he died—it only denies that the Jews killed him.


    Quote
    Maybe we could ask to our friend here whose the name is "muhajirun" but in Syriac. I mean our dear friend "Mahgraye"


    You writing this really warms my heart.

    Two notions involved in the word ‘Mahgraye’:

    1. Descendants of Abraham by Hagar.

    2. Those who partake in an exodus.

    The first point is self evident and requires no further elucidation. Only the second point is shrouded in some mystery. What is this exodus that one speaks of? Is it the one preserved in the Islamic tradition: Mecca to Medina? Maybe, but there are reasons to the reject the traditional picture of the this event. There is, however, an alternative scenario: the emigration of the Ishmaelites from Arabia to the Promised Land.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3245 - August 18, 2018, 01:28 PM

    Quote
    Heraclius soon experienced a new event, te Muslim conquests. Emerging from the Arabian Peninsula, the Muslims quickly conquered the Sasanian Empire. In 634 the Muslims marched into Roman Syria, defeating Heraclius's brother Theodore. Within a short period of time, the Arabs conquered Mesopotamia, Armenia and Egypt.


    The only "big" battle is the Yarmuk 636 with a few Romans there to help those attacked there. The victory opens : Palestine and Egypt.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3246 - August 18, 2018, 01:44 PM

    Quote
    In fact the verse does not deny that Jesus was crucified or that he died—it only denies that the Jews killed him.


    Then God  by his verse says clearly that they not killed him by crucifying him.
    Then the "Quran" (which is God speaking) says that Jesus was not crucified by the Jews or others.
    Quote
    I asked him whether he had retracted his earlier views on the matter. He answered in the negative.


    I thought that this view was : not crucified. But in fact, I think he is totally lost. Whereas it is perfectly clear : Jesus is not died on the cross, the Jews lies. Haha!

    Quote
    You writing this really warms my heart.


    I hope!

    Quote
    the emigration of the Ishmaelites from Arabia to the Promised Land.


    But they did not need to emigrate : Palestine/Syria was already heavily populated with Arabs, sons of Ishmael, Hagarenes, Saracens, whatever you call them! Hahaha!  Afro
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3247 - August 18, 2018, 01:46 PM

    Was I even close to the correct answer? ha ha ha
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3248 - August 18, 2018, 01:50 PM

    Yes. Kerr mentions that Syro-Palestine was already populated by Arabs and thus the Arab expansion would have been invisible.

    So, what is the exodus, then?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3249 - August 18, 2018, 01:51 PM

    Wait! From somewhere in Syro-Palestine to Medina (Midian?) or Petra?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3250 - August 18, 2018, 02:07 PM

    I am referring to an event which is only known by Muslim sources but outside of "Mecca/Medina" (then  It is not Charter of Medina.) . Not interpreted in the way they interpreted it.
    De Prémare notices it as he notices many events. Reread it. You have to found yourself.



    The pledge of al -Aqaba ?







  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3251 - August 18, 2018, 02:47 PM

    Yes. Kerr mentions that Syro-Palestine was already populated by Arabs and thus the Arab expansion would have been invisible.

    So, what is the exodus, then?


    Haha, that is the good question. Reflect. What is an exodus?  Afro
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3252 - August 18, 2018, 02:49 PM


    The pledge of al -Aqaba ?


    Nope.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3253 - August 18, 2018, 02:50 PM

    Wait! From somewhere in Syro-Palestine to Medina (Midian?) or Petra?


    Reflect. What is an exodus?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3254 - August 18, 2018, 02:51 PM

    Deportation of Jews?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3255 - August 18, 2018, 02:52 PM

    No. Flight from Egypt?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3256 - August 18, 2018, 02:53 PM

    Persecution?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3257 - August 18, 2018, 03:00 PM

    They were not only Arabs anymore.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3258 - August 18, 2018, 03:13 PM

    Reflect. What is an exodus?  Afro
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3259 - August 18, 2018, 03:14 PM

    Flight to Etchiopia ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3260 - August 18, 2018, 03:24 PM

    Is your book in French, Altara?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3261 - August 18, 2018, 03:37 PM

    Exodus:

    According to Gallez the Arabs were joined by the Nazarenes with focus on Jerusalem. The year of the Arabs must have something to do with Jerusalem then.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3262 - August 18, 2018, 03:47 PM

    A link to Kerr's article on the subject : https://www.academia.edu/2629114/Islam_Arabs_and_the_Hijra

    Dont know if it already popped up in the thread...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3263 - August 18, 2018, 04:01 PM

    Dear Altara - On the topic of Jesus' crucifixion and death in the Quran, I recommend you reading the studies by the following scholars: Gabriel Said Reynolds, Suleiman A. Mourad, Christoph Luxenberg, and Florence Mraizika. There are probably others who adhere to their views on this matter as well, but these are the ones coming to mind at the moment.

    Out of interest, have you read any of them?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3264 - August 18, 2018, 04:21 PM

    Luxenberg's forthcoming contextual and philological study might be the final nail in the coffin, demonstrating that the Quran does not really deny the historical reality of the crucifixion. Like Reynolds, he argues that the Quran only denies the Jewish claim that they - the Jews - managed to kill the Messiah.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3265 - August 18, 2018, 04:21 PM

    Flight to Etchiopia ?


    Nope. Reflect.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3266 - August 18, 2018, 04:21 PM

    Flight to Europe?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3267 - August 18, 2018, 06:09 PM

    Dear Altara - On the topic of Jesus' crucifixion and death in the Quran, I recommend you reading the studies by the following scholars: Gabriel Said Reynolds, Suleiman A. Mourad, Christoph Luxenberg, and Florence Mraizika. There are probably others who adhere to their views on this matter as well, but these are the ones coming to mind at the moment.

    Out of interest, have you read any of them?



    I read the Reynolds one.  Not convincing at all  (for me...)

    Quote
    "In the present paper I contend that the Quran rather accepts that Jesus died"

    Yes, but not on the cross!  The Jesus of the Gospels is died on the cross. End of story. Reynolds can say whatever he wants.

    Quote
    Meanwhile, most Western scholars of Islam agree that the Quran denies the death of Jesus. Not infrequently they assume that this denial reflects the influence of Christian docetism.

    1/On the CROSS, not the normal death.
    2/Nor docetismNothing to see with the theological reason why gnostics of the 2nd c. have invented that.

    Quote
    On the other hand, the Quran itself never denies the death of Jesus but rather
    alludes to it in several passages. In one passage the Quran has Jesus himself
    declare, “Peace upon me on the day I was born, on the day I die, and on the
    day I will be sent forth alive” (Q 19.33).


    Of course lol!
    Quote
    Here the Quran implies that the death of Jesus – like all deaths – was the
    act of God  “I was a witness to them as long as I remained among them.
    You became the watcher of them when you made me die.

     

    Yes but NOT on the CROSS!

    Quote
    In verse 158(a) the Quran insists that instead rafaʿahu Allāhu ilayhi, “God raised
    him to Himself”.


    Yes but NOT on the CROSS!
    Quote
    Exegetical debates...


    They know nothing of the text.

    Quote
    “Those who dispute over it are covered in  doubt”.


    Of course!  (Hahaha!)

    Quote
    If tafsīr indeed provides an accurate explanation of the Quran’s original, intended meaning, then nowhere should the explanation be clearer than in the case of the Crucifixion. If the Prophet Muhammad announced to his companions that Jesus never died, but rather someone who was made miraculously to look like him died in his place, i.e.if he gave a historical account of the crucifixion which fundamentally contradicts that which Jews and Christians had been reporting for hundreds of
    years, then certainly such a revolutionary account – if any – would be well
    remembered and well preserved.

    1/It is not the "Prophet Muhammad "who announce that Jesus never died,, it is the Quran and he speaks only about  the ...  death on the CROSS.
    Therefore there is no " he gave a historical account of the crucifixion which fundamentally contradicts that which Jews and Christians had been reporting for hundreds of years," etc.

    Quote
    This strikes me as reason enough for critical scholars to read this quranic passage in light of earlier (i.e. Jewish and Christian) and not later (i.e. Islamic exegesis)
    literature.When the Quran is read in this light, it quickly becomes apparent
    that the passage on the crucifixion is fully in line with Christian anti-Jewish
    rhetoric.


    Yes but Christians never said that there was no crucifixion and that the Jews were lying when they claim they crucified him! Hahaha!

    Quote
    When the Quran then alludes to the crucifixion just two verses later, it means to give the cardinal example of just such a murder.


    Yes, but the Quran says that it NEVER happened.

    Reynolds is lost on this one. I think the reason is that he thinks (at that time...) that the Quran is Christian (layered text, Segovia, Dye, etc). And, of course, a "Christian text" cannot deny that Jesus is not died on the cross.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3268 - August 18, 2018, 06:12 PM

    If he did not die on the Cross, then how did he die, since you seem to think that the Quran affirms his death?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3269 - August 18, 2018, 06:14 PM

    Your last remark tells me that you do not think the Quran is layered Christian text. Am I right in assuming that?
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