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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3480 - August 27, 2018, 08:38 AM

    AH 300 means year 912/913.,  and second century of what dear Mahgraye  ??  you mean 812/813??  that is 50 years  of error bar...

    So when do you guys think  that  Quran  became   the present book?  what year?


    As regards to Ferrin, there is no complete codex prior AH 300. Or the second century.


    I'm not sure that the  "Quran as layer text" theory of Ferrin, Dye, Segovia, Sinai, etc is what happened. There is additions, of course but not to the point of what they say. For example I do not think that Q 19,34-40 is an addition like Dye affirms.He "found" it. The trend now is to say that all passage which poses problem is more or less an addition, interpolation, whatever. In fact it is because (like the Muslim for other reasons) they have no responses about the text as we have it. "Layering text" it is the last possible response to present to the public ; it will win more and more scholars who will not "believe" in the  Muslim narrative.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3481 - August 27, 2018, 08:59 AM

    Islamic awareness site:

    Thanks Yeez helping me out on the choice of words! I "mentioned"before the table ...

    I know Islamic awareness is a muslim apologist site. But they do have good overviews and no other site matches that.

    So if even their table shows this skewed frequency of extant finds of early Quranic manuscripts, there really is some material to dig into.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3482 - August 27, 2018, 01:44 PM

    Islamic awareness site:

    Thanks Yeez helping me out on the choice of words! I "mentioned"before the table ...

      I hope  i didn't use wrong words dear mundi., Cheesy Cheesy      So you didn't write but just picked up the link to use the info., ?  In fact I am going through it carefully and indeed they have done a good job.,     off course it is not unquestionable and many questions  can be framed on their methods and  on their conclusions .

    Quote
    I know Islamic awareness is a muslim apologist site. But they do have good overviews and no other site matches that.

    Dear mundi  I LIKE MUSLIM APOLOGISTS...  I am related to many ., they may not like you and they may not like what you say but they will not beat you up.,    many folks in fact protect me and my identity

    Quote
    So if even their table shows this skewed frequency of extant finds of early Quranic manuscripts, there really is some material to dig into.

    No..noooooo..  skewed  or un-skewed., they have done good job to start with ., In fact I will take their data.,  and you know we must realize one way or other way we are all skewed with reference to many things ...  As long as they allow me to question and I allow others to question me .. It is fair  game dear mundi..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3483 - August 27, 2018, 01:46 PM

    Segovia after 10 years of studies, seems to leave definitely (?) the field of Quranic studies :

     " Carlos A. SEGOVIA (1) 2018–
    My current research focusses predominantly on the ANTHROPOLOGICAL THEORY AT THE CROSSROADS OF POSTCOLONIAL STUDIES."

    Segovia : "(2) 2007–2017
    Yet my main research field from 2007 to 2017 was the HISTORY OF RELIGION and, in particular, the study of RELIGIOUS IDENTITY FORMATION IN LATE ANTIQUITY, with special emphasis on the complex relations between group-identity markers, sectarian boundaries, discursive strategies, and religious concepts.
    More concretely, my research in the field of Quranic and early Islamic studies has focussed on the reconstruction of the sectarian milieu of emergent Islam against the cultural dynamics of the 7th-century Near East through the examination of a number of symptomatic textual indices combining group-identity markers and (meta)religious concepts in the Qur’an and the chronology and intertextuality
    of the writings gathered into the latter – as I am basically interested in the Qur’ān’s
    Grundschriften and hence in its pre-canonical redactional history."

    Does not really surprise me as I've already said that : "The trend now (Ferrin, Dye, Segovia, Sinai, etc)  is to say that all passage which poses problem is more or less an addition, interpolation, suppression,  whatever... In fact it is because (like the Muslim for other reasons, they therefore say, it's a "miracle"...) they have no responses about the text as we have it. "Layering text", it is therefore the last possible response to present to the public. It is an interesting way out. It will win more and more scholars who do not (will not in the future) "believe" in the  Muslim narrative. And,  view that it is more and more difficult to "believe" in it (Judaism/Christianity in Yemen, Christianity in the East coast, Iraq where Arabs reign in Al Hira, etc) "Layering text" will become the mainstream opinion of "sceptics".
    https://www.academia.edu/37297643/Summary_of_Previous_and_Current_Research
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3484 - August 27, 2018, 01:55 PM

    I'm not sure that the  "Quran as layer text" theory of Ferrin, Dye, Segovia, Sinai, etc is what happened. There is additions, of course but not to the point of what they say. For example I do not think that Q 19,34-40 is an addition like Dye affirms.He "found" it. The trend now is to say that all passage which poses problem is more or less an addition, interpolation, whatever. In fact it is because (like the Muslim for other reasons) they have no responses about the text as we have it. "Layering text" it is the last possible response to present to the public ; it will win more and more scholars who will not "believe" in the  Muslim narrative.

    I wonder about that layered theory of Quran ., what actually do we/they/you mean by that??

    to figure  out what kind of layered structure it has.,   first we must know clearly  what is missing and what is added and when  

    Is it whole surah missing and it has been added at later times?

    is the present sequence of surahs in the book same as those that they see in those  old Hijazi  and/or Kufic manuscripts??

    there are many questions that need to be answered w.r.t those manuscripts that are missing verses/surahs because either goat ate them or termites ate them..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3485 - August 27, 2018, 02:00 PM

    Not sure I get any of this. When do ypu guys Think the Quran was completed? Altara said around 715, if I rememever correctly.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3486 - August 27, 2018, 02:23 PM

    Not sure I get any of this.

     what..what.. what don't you get dear Mahgraye?? you mean to say you are not getting  my questions and doubts on the present book?? 

    Quote
    When do ypu guys Think the Quran was completed? Altara said around 715, if I rememever correctly.

     present book or some book/manual??  that indeed is the question we are all involved in answering/understanding

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3487 - August 27, 2018, 02:42 PM

    I wonder about that layered theory of Quran ., what actually do we/they/you mean by that??

    to figure  out what kind of layered structure it has.,   first we must know clearly  what is missing and what is added and when  

    Is it whole surah missing and it has been added at later times?

    is the present sequence of surahs in the book same as those that they see in those  old Hijazi  and/or Kufic manuscripts??

    there are many questions that need to be answered w.r.t those manuscripts that are missing verses/surahs because either goat ate them or termites ate them..


    You can read this : https://www.academia.edu/33138609/Mapping_the_Sources_of_the_Quranic_Jesus
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3488 - August 27, 2018, 02:43 PM

    Maybe Corpus Coranica will help answer some of those questions.

    I myself think the Quranic text was finalised BEFORE the islamic history was totally wrtitten (1) . I also think you have different layers of text within this book as additions were made along the way to include stories that people thought necessary to have in that book (2). There were some alterations to the text but there were few I think though their impact might have been important (3).

    (1) This is the only solution I can find to explain why, when you read the Quran without the islamic exegisis, verses that islam tell you are related to Muhammad are in fact biblical writings. For me, the Quran nevcer spoke about Muhammad, Mecca, and the rest. Tafseer writers just corrupted the meaning of the text.

    (2) The fact that the text mixes midrash writings and christians apocrypha writings is for me the proof of such textual layering. Those texts come from different period and therefore, except if you believe in the Quran as God revelation to mankind, they could only have been collected together but at different dates. There are many other clues to this layering (the Lord vs Allah in many suras is another example).

    (3) The reason why we know some of the texts went through alterations comes from the islamic tradition itself that tell us about this guy who meets another guy and hear him reciting a surah and is puzzled because he never heard this sura recited that way. He then takes him to see Muhammad and explain his issue. Then Muhammad ask both men to recite that sura and tell both of them that they are right in their reciting. This is what later islamic tradition will call ahruf in an attempt to hide the fact that the text that had been circulating was not 100% the same depending on the copies you could  put your hands on and also to explain away the slight alterations that were being made.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3489 - August 27, 2018, 02:47 PM

    Of course the Quran was already finished before the advent of the grammarians, commentators, traditionists, and biographers.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3490 - August 27, 2018, 02:53 PM



    Altara  gives a 2017 draft paper  link  of   Guillaume Dye  which says  "Draft only - Please do not quote without permission"   Cheesy Cheesy

    I don't think I am going to use that paper dear Altara  .. but why that link? I will read through it but it seems to deal with "Quranic Jesus"

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3491 - August 27, 2018, 03:16 PM

    Maybe Corpus Coranica will help answer some of those questions.

    I myself think the Quranic text was finalised BEFORE the islamic history was totally wrtitten (1) . I also think you have different layers of text within this book as additions were made along the way to include stories that people thought necessary to have in that book (2). There were some alterations to the text but there were few I think though their impact might have been important.


    1/ I think only the rasm.

    2/ I do not think so. The stories (Q 12, Q 18, etc) are in the rasm and were not added. Here or not, moreover, these stories bring nothing to the theology of the text.

    Quote
    (1) This is the only solution I can find to explain why, when you read the Quran without the islamic exegisis, verses that islam tell you are related to Muhammad are in fact biblical writings. For me, the Quran nevcer spoke about Muhammad, Mecca, and the rest. Tafseer writers just corrupted the meaning of the text.


    1/ Nope, there's other solutions. I never read the Quran with Islamic exegesis, since this one knows nothing about the text.

    Quote
    (2) The fact that the text mixes midrash writings and christians apocrypha writings is for me the proof of such textual layering. Those texts come from different period and therefore, except if you believe in the Quran as God revelation to mankind, they could only have been collected together but at different dates. There are many other clues to this layering (the Lord vs Allah in many suras is another example).


    1/ Nope it proves nothing.
    2/ Then any writer which draw today (2018) from 15th c. writing or 18th c. prove that his writing comes from the 15th c. or the 18th ? How's that?
    3/ Use of different word proves nothing I'm afraid.

    Quote
    (3) The reason why we know some of the texts went through alterations comes from the islamic tradition itself that tell us about this guy who meets another guy and hear him reciting a surah and is puzzled because he never heard this sura recited that way. He then takes him to see Muhammad and explain his issue. Then Muhammad ask both men to recite that sura and tell both of them that they are right in their reciting. This is what later islamic tradition will call ahruf in an attempt to hide the fact that the text that had been circulating was not 100% the same depending on the copies you could  put your hands on and also to explain away the slight alterations that were being made.



    1/ the problem you describe is the "readings"problem  it only proves that there was no oral tradition to read the rasm, as many people read it therefore recite it differently.
    It was the same rasm, but perforce, as the narrative affirms the unity of the hearing of the "prophet" proclaiming,  the narrative affirms an oral tradition. But the reality is exactly inverse hence the fact of what you describe: "the islamic tradition itself that tell us about this guy who meets another guy and hear him reciting a surah and is puzzled because he never heard this sura recited that way. "  It's perfectly normal, as the oral tradition is a myth, there was therefore different "reading" as never those who had the text were together in Mecca/Medina/Zem Zem and hearing the "prophet".
    2/ It is the same rasm.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3492 - August 27, 2018, 03:53 PM

    Of course the Quran was already finished before the advent of the grammarians, commentators, traditionists, and biographers.


    What I mean here is that, for me, Quran and Muhammad "life" were not linked. Islam history bridged the gap but the Quran could not be altered that much.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3493 - August 27, 2018, 03:59 PM

    Altara - Do you agree with Cuypers instead of the layered text?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3494 - August 27, 2018, 03:59 PM

    Yeez,

    On the skewed frequency table of Islamic awareness:

    I mean statistically skewed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skewness

    Not that the results of islamic awareness are biased. The frequency for the first surahs is higher than for the latter.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3495 - August 27, 2018, 04:00 PM

    Marc S - I think I might also agree that the Quran was not altered that much.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3496 - August 27, 2018, 04:12 PM


    1/ the problem you describe is the "readings"problem  it only proves that there was no oral tradition to read the rasm, as many people read it therefore recite it differently.
    It was the same rasm, but perforce, as the narrative affirms the unity of the hearing of the "prophet" proclaiming,  the narrative affirms an oral tradition. But the reality is exactly inverse hence the fact of what you describe: "the islamic tradition itself that tell us about this guy who meets another guy and hear him reciting a surah and is puzzled because he never heard this sura recited that way. "  It's perfectly normal, as the oral tradition is a myth, there was therefore different "reading" as never those who had the text were together in Mecca/Medina/Zem Zem and hearing the "prophet".


    Yes that could also be one explanation. I guess it depends how soon the "islamic" state was able to standardize the Quran ; we unfortunately don't know that as the Othman tradition is a myth or a projection in the past of events that happened later.

    Quote
    2/ It is the same rasm.


    If you think the rasm was the same then how do you explain this ? Unless you ascribe a time period from which the rasm didn't change anymore.

    https://fr.scribd.com/document/159627228/Qur-an-Textual-Variants-2

    Also have a look at the link I left on Florence Mraizika interview in that thread. She seems to show alteration to the text.


    Quote
    2/ Then any writer which draw today (2018) from 15th c. writing or 18th c. prove that his writing comes from the 15th c. or the 18th ? How's that?



    Then you will have different layers in your text.

    Quote
    3/ Use of different word proves nothing I'm afraid.



    This is how, for the Bible, scholars identified 2 authors in the Genesis text, one Yahve source, and one Elohim source.

    But you also have the same event told in a different way, that different way not being the fact of providing additionnal details but a slightly different story in its sequencing (see for example the story about ibliss revolting against Allah and refusing to bow down in front of Adam).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3497 - August 27, 2018, 04:18 PM

    Keith Small showed that the rasm is the same and that it was established by a centralized political authority.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3498 - August 27, 2018, 04:19 PM

    Note: Christian apologists are simply ignorant of textual criticism.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3499 - August 27, 2018, 04:22 PM

    Mraizika's argument concerning the addition of "of Mary" is completely gratuitous and not convincing in the slightest.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3500 - August 27, 2018, 04:22 PM

    Many people do not even know the difference between genuine textual variants and insignificant orthographic differences.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3501 - August 27, 2018, 04:39 PM

    The Quran was standardized in the seventh century. Scholars now agree on thia point.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3502 - August 27, 2018, 04:39 PM

    Keith Small showed that the rasm is the same and that it was established by a centralized political authority.


    How do you reconcile your above comments with this ?

    Quote
    Small concludes that though a significantly early edited form of the consonantal text of the Qur'an can be recovered, its original forms of text cannot be obtained.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3503 - August 27, 2018, 04:45 PM

    Correction: the Quran was compiled by at least the late seventh century.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3504 - August 27, 2018, 04:47 PM

    There is no contradiction. Two different and irrelevant points. And there are other opinions on the matter.

    That is the rasm is the same is, dare I say (most), by all manuscripts experts. Even Wansbrough acknowledged that.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3505 - August 27, 2018, 06:01 PM

    Rasm fixation:

    Scribal mistakes are not propagated to the next edition. They are corrected and not repeated.

    That is only possible if from the start enough copies were present to preserve the standard. You need a critical mass of standardized copies to obtain that. Otherwise mistakes/changes go unnoticed, no-one can check against "the original".
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3506 - August 27, 2018, 06:07 PM

    That is why it was a centralized political authority that standardized the rasm
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3507 - August 27, 2018, 06:20 PM



    Altara - Do you agree with Cuypers instead of the layered text?


    Hahaha! I was waiting this question dear Mahgraye! I was wondering when it will be raised!

    1/ I've posted here the Sinai review of Cuypers. He contests the tool (Semitic Rhetoric) Cuypers uses. It is a must read.
    2/As Cuypers live in Cairo, he cannot draw the consequences of what he says, that's my principal issue with him.
    3/ There is therefore two sides : Cuypers one and the"layered text" one.
    For me, the Quran is not conceptually a "layered text" as seems to think Segovia et al. Dye has made a paper in the Ferrin reunion this summer in Seville,  'The Qur'an as a layered text'. He did not posted it in academia (Ferrin has post his). This paper I think will precise his thought about that.
    4/ As I already said the text is both ; there's additions, but there's a core text.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3508 - August 27, 2018, 06:48 PM

    Yes that could also be one explanation. I guess it depends how soon the "islamic" state was able to standardize the Quran ; we unfortunately don't know that as the Othman tradition is a myth or a projection in the past of events that happened later.

    It is the logic and rational explication.


    Quote
    If you think the rasm was the same then how do you explain this ? Unless you ascribe a time period from which the rasm didn't change anymore.

    https://fr.scribd.com/document/159627228/Qur-an-Textual-Variants-2


    I think that p. 3. scribd :  "Here, the word for  “hell” (jahannamu) is replaced with a synonym, “the fire”  (an-naaru)" exists for one logical reason. that explained easily when you know that there is not oral tradition : you can find it.

    Quote
    Also have a look at the link I left on Florence Mraizika interview in that thread. She seems to show alteration to the text.


    Florence Mraizika is interesting in this interview but convincing is another thing.




    Quote
    But you also have the same event told in a different way, that different way not being the fact of providing additionnal details but a slightly different story in its sequencing (see for example the story about ibliss revolting against Allah and refusing to bow down in front of Adam).


    Interesting (and logic) argument for the "layers".
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3509 - August 27, 2018, 07:00 PM

    Is that book of yours in French, Altara?
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