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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4440 - October 01, 2018, 07:45 PM
    Stephen J. Shoemaker
     Books in Progress :
     The Capture of Jerusalem by the Persians in 614  (parallel critical translations of the Georgian and Arabic versions). With Sean Anthony (Ohio State University). In progress.

    A Prophet Has Appeared, Coming with the Saracens: The Rise of Islam through Christian and Jewish Eyes
    . A reader of contemporary non-Islamic sources vital for understanding the rise of Islam. Translations with critical introductions from Greek, Latin, Coptic, Syriac, Georgian, Armenian, Ethiopic, Arabic, and Hebrew. In progress (under contract with University of California Press).


    https://uoregon.academia.edu/StephenShoemaker/CurriculumVitae
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4441 - October 01, 2018, 07:47 PM
    Very interesting forthcoming books by Shoemaker (and Anthony). Looking forward to reading them, especially the latter one. This will be the third book dealing with the earliest reference to Islam. My hope is that Shoemaker deals with the latest issues raised about the sources in his latest book.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4442 - October 01, 2018, 08:01 PM
    Mahgraye,

    Zellentin: I know he argues that the Quranic laws were generally accepted ways of life in the whole of ME (Jews and Christians alike) and he refers to the Didascalia. But as long as I haven't read an understandable text that proves his point I just don't believe it.

    Concubines: I don't know exactly which verses you refer to but if I remember well, several scholars argue that references to sexual slavery like in 23:6 are later interpolations. Apart from when these ideas came to be written into the Quran, they seem to have have been adopted by the proto-muslims.

    Circumcision: not in Quran but clearly adopted by proto-muslims. Why? If they had a Christian background, would they have reïnstated it?

    Polygamy: I can understand that this would be a point of attraction for  new male converts.

    Consanguinity laws: I dont know how strict the practice was globally  in late antiquity ME, but it is known that Romans had very strict laws prohibiting it. Quran (and probably adapted by proto-muslim) is very liberal.

    Many of these sociological issues are not easily adapted if not the custom. Surely it gives indications on the provenance of the proto-muslims or on who influenced them.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4443 - October 01, 2018, 08:47 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on October 01, 2018, 07:47 PM
    Very interesting forthcoming books by Shoemaker (and Anthony). Looking forward to reading them, especially the latter one. This will be the third book dealing with the earliest reference to Islam.


    Both are indeed interesting. I think that I shall have to refute the thesis about the Doctrina Jacobi (A Prophet Has Appeared, Coming with the Saracens... announcing the Messiah, etc ) that I feel Shoemaker will connect to his broader thesis of "Apocalyptic" origin of the Quran. As I already said, Shoemaker is not an historian and his speciality is the Virgin Mary (cf. his PhD...) he is surely competent about her, but to me, was nor trained in History (mandatory for me) nor specifically in History from Qumran to Quran, he is not therefore competent in the history of Islam. I know it could seems harsh but ...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4444 - October 01, 2018, 08:52 PM
    History training:

    Don't you exaggerate the quality of an average history training? Doubt that it is a make or break for good scholarship... I have seen modern history training from the side line, not that impressed.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4445 - October 01, 2018, 09:03 PM
    I would say your assessment of Shoemaker is harsh and unfair. I would even say it is simply false. Scholars who have read his work - and a great deal of them are historians - do not share your assessment. One can just read his writings and see that he is very competent.  It seems that you are being all too technocratic here. Many scholars are not necessarily historians per se but have still contributed to the field and are very competent it as well. As a result, many scholars would be disqualified if one were to follow your standard. But this is not really important, so let's not get stuck, haha. To give an example, Manfred Kropp - certainly an authority - is not trained in Quranic Studies and only came to the field very late. Does that imply that he is not competent to discuss matters pertaining to the Quran? Of course not, and I doubt that any would say otherwise. Shoemaker is also very respected by scholars. I would say Dye is such as scholar. We should interact with his actual arguments instead of nitpicking his credentials.

    As for the Didisacaly, I guess I also look forward to your rebuttal (let's not say refutation just yet, haha). Ironically, it was the Didisacaly I was thinking of when I said that I hoped that he deals with the recent issues raised on the sources. Sean Anthony, for instance, has dated it later than usual, assigning it to the late seventh century, which is, in my opinion, very significant. Since you brought up the Didiscaly, could you please provide some source as to why you do not take its testimony as history? I remember you citing something.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4446 - October 01, 2018, 09:57 PM
    Quote
    Since you brought up the Didiscaly, could you please provide some source as to why you do not take its testimony as history? I remember you citing something.


    I have already write (at length) in this forum about the Doctrina Jacobi. I invite you to go back in this thread to reread it. I did not know that Anthony had "dated it later than usual, assigning it to the late seventh century." I still did not read his paper about it. I had right, since Shoemaker will write one. I'll read them all when it will be published to have the state of the art about it.
    This text is a key text for many reasons and for two granted opinions about the Islamic core : Muhammad has existed,  he announce the Messiah  and therefore the  "Apocalyptic" origin of the Quran  the new fashion of Quranic studies (yet as none "Messiah" is announced in it, there is many eschatological aspects...) aspects which explains themselves without the need of link them to an contemporary "apocalyptic" stuff which would have been the reason of the composition of the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4447 - October 01, 2018, 10:05 PM
    You are correct about the important nature of the Dididascly and the several implications it carries. There are, however, at least two additional sources that are considered just as important as Dididascly in terms of proving Muhammad's historicity. Scholars the believe that the early community was Messianic justify it in terms of the Quran and prophetic traditions as well. It is not only restricted to the Dididascly.

    Could you please provide the relevant pages on the forum where you discuss the Dididascly? Anyways, I will try to find them myself.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4448 - October 01, 2018, 10:32 PM
    Quote from: mundi on October 01, 2018, 06:44 PM
    Sociological aspects of the Quran and its milieu:

    What does the sociological aspect of the Quran tell us about who wrote it or who instructed the literati to write it?

    1/ strict dietary laws
    2/ circumcision
    3/ explicit ok for polygamy

    I think it points to a strong Jewish influence, no?



    Off course Jewish scriptures, laws and rituals  have strong,, very strong influence on Quran.. in fact Quran accepts that fact dear  mundi., Let me ask slightly different question/s .

    1). What verses of Quran that affects social, political-economical,   family structural rules., rules of rituals  ARE NOT THERE IN JEWISH SCRIPTURES ?

    In other words,  
    2). what does Quran has that is not there in Jewish scriptures/culture  of that time?

    Extending that Question   a bit

    What is new in Quran that was not there before its birth from the   culture/scriptures/rituals/stories  of people of that time who were Pagans, Christians and Jewish folks ??

    Hope  one of you guys could take a shot at those questions the only condition is  ANSWERS MUST COME FROM QURAN VERSES..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4449 - October 01, 2018, 10:53 PM
    Quote from: Altara on October 01, 2018, 09:57 PM
    I have already write (at length) in this forum about the Doctrina Jacobi. I invite you to go back in this thread to reread it. I did not know that Anthony had "dated it later than usual, assigning it to the late seventh century." I still did not read his paper about it. I had right, since Shoemaker will write one. I'll read them all when it will be published to have the state of the art about it.
    This text is a key text for many reasons and for two granted opinions about the Islamic core : Muhammad has existed,  he announce the Messiah  and therefore the  "Apocalyptic" origin of the Quran  the new fashion of Quranic studies (yet as none "Messiah" is announced in it, there is many eschatological aspects...) aspects which explains themselves without the need of link them to an contemporary "apocalyptic" stuff which would have been the reason of the composition of the Quran.

    Nope .. one will NOT be able to come to that conclusion after reading that "Doctrina Jacobi." .. In fact  "Doctrina Jacobi." proves nothing except "Some one said something about some Prophet "....

    Quote
    ..................."When the candidatus was killed by the Saracens, I was at Caesarea and I set off by boat to Sykamina. People were saying “the candidatus has been killed,” and we Jews were overjoyed. And they were saying that the prophet had appeared, coming with the Saracens, and that he was proclaiming the advent of the anointed one, the Christ who was to come.

    I, having arrived at Sykamina, stopped by a certain old man well-versed in scriptures, and I said to him: “What can you tell me about the prophet who has appeared with the Saracens?” He replied, groaning deeply:
    Quote
    “He is false, for the prophets do not come armed with a sword. Truly they are works of anarchy being committed today and I fear that the first Christ to come, whom the Christians worship, was the one sent by God and we instead are preparing to receive the Antichrist.

    ..............Indeed, Isaiah said that the Jews would retain a perverted and hardened heart until all the earth should be devastated. But you go, master Abraham, and find out about the prophet who has appeared.” So I, Abraham, inquired and heard from those who had met him that there was no truth to be found in the so-called prophet, only the shedding of men’s blood. He says also that he has the keys of paradise, which is incredible.".............[/i]


    1, Sean W. Anthony Story of "Doctrina Jacobi."

    2, Disdacalie de Jacob - Patristique.org

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4450 - October 01, 2018, 11:43 PM
    One can and people have. Read Shoemaker, among others. This does not mean he is correct, tho.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4451 - October 02, 2018, 03:21 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on October 01, 2018, 11:43 PM
    One can and people have. Read Shoemaker, among others.

    Too much reading clutters your mind and confuses your thoughts dear Mahgraye
    Quote
    This does not mean he is correct, tho.

    you are absolutely correct in saying that but you seem to trust These Guys

    anyways  did you by chance read this book Josephi Jacobi Plenk, ... Doctrina de morbis dentium ac gingivarvm/.........1778
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4452 - October 02, 2018, 07:15 AM
    Yeez,

    Of course it is clear that Jewish scriptures had an influence on the Quran just as the Christian scriptures did. But as the consensus is these days that Christian influence is stronger than the Jewish one in the writing of the book, it stands in opposition that the "way of life"directives of the Quran lean much more towards the Jewish community.

    Even more, some practices that are not mentioned in the Quran (circumcision), are seen as core muslim values. This means that proto-muslims and muslims later on, didn't need the Quran to tell them to do it. It was so embedded in their way of life, that no tenet was needed for the practice to be imposed on all who wanted to join their community.

    So if we are trying to imagine who these proto-muslims were, I think their sociological practices (in and outside the Quran) is an important factor.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4453 - October 02, 2018, 08:49 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on October 01, 2018, 10:53 PM
    Nope .. one will NOT be able to come to that conclusion after reading that "Doctrina Jacobi." .. In fact  "Doctrina Jacobi." proves nothing except "Some one said something about some Prophet "....


    Of course. That is why this text  is used as evidence of the existence of the "prophet" :
    Crone (Hagarism) :

    Quote
    If we choose to start again [to remake the history of Islam], we begin with the Doctrina Jacobi, a Greek [...]  but it does suggest that we have in the Doctrina a
    stratum of belief older than the Islamic tradition itself. Of greater historical
    significance is the fact that the Prophet is represented as alive at the time of the conquest of Palestine. [...] But the really startling thing about the Doctrina is its report that the Prophet was preaching the advent of 'the anointed one who is to come'.That is to say the core of the Prophet's message, in the earliest testimony available to us outside the Islamic tradition, appears as Judaic messianism.


    Crone "start again" nothing, as she takes for granted the existence of the "prophet" because of the Doctrina. She does not quote (first) other text. And she does it at the very commencement of Hagarism (p.3)
    How to "start again" the history of Islam in taking for granted the existence of the producer of the Quranic text? It seems (to me...) not possible, or it is an imposture. Because it means that  it need a "prophet" to write it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4454 - October 02, 2018, 12:16 PM
    Quote
    How to "start again" the history of Islam in taking for granted the existence of the producer of the Quranic text?


    "The prophet"can be the commander of the invading troops. Why would he have anything to do with the writing of the Quran? That could have come later, no?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4455 - October 02, 2018, 12:55 PM
    Quote
    "The prophet"can be the commander of the invading troops. Why would he have anything to do with the writing of the Quran?


    The Prophet Muhammad then has nothing to see with the Quran?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4456 - October 02, 2018, 01:11 PM
    Mohammed and the Quran:

    Why would he be linked? How do we know the prophet was called Mohammed? Might be a later choice of name... Mohammed only mentioned 4 times in Quran, could be a later addition after a first edition.

    We don't even know when was the start of the Quranic redaction. Could be after that prophet (whatever his name was) was already dead.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4457 - October 02, 2018, 02:58 PM
    Quran has nothing to do with Muhammad nor Islam. That is why you have ahadith and the sira.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4458 - October 02, 2018, 03:07 PM
    And yet he is identified with " "The prophet"can be the commander of the invading troops." as Mundi says. Therefore he believes that he has existed.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4459 - October 02, 2018, 03:20 PM
    "Prophet"

    I think it is probable that the invading troops were led by a high ego individual and seen the zeitgeist, it was probably "a prophet". Just as Joseph Smith was a prophet and led and army more than a millennium later.

    Because an army lead by a prophet was so acceptable in Late Antiquity, writing the islamic history later on including "a prophet", now given a name Muhammed was in the logic of things, not far fetched.

    Look at our recent war heroes, national history has not yet beatified them, but if we were living in a more religious era, it surely would have happened.

    Jeanne D'Arc is another nice example. We know she existed but we surely don't know as much as the movie made about her depicts. When the time is right, the story flows easily, and the story is easily believed.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4460 - October 02, 2018, 03:24 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on October 02, 2018, 02:58 PM
    Quran has nothing to do with Muhammad nor Islam. That is why you have ahadith and the sira.

     That hadith Junk and Sira gibberish should be trashed((ALL OF IT ..THE GOOD & BAD & UGLY STUFF)., In fact I suggest/talk/suggested to some of my folks who follow Islam to burn that junk on the steps of Mosques and burn that out of their brains..

    But people who hate Islam, Muslims and their Prophet would love to keep that ahadith and sira so they can insult, enrage  and have fun at the cost of Muslim folks..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4461 - October 02, 2018, 03:36 PM
    Quote from: Altara on October 02, 2018, 03:07 PM
    And yet he is identified with " "The prophet"can be the commander of the invading troops." as Mundi says. Therefore he believes that he has existed.


    No source call him a prophet.

    - Doctrina Jaccobi doesn't give any name about this so-called prophet and this is a 670-690 text targeted at the Jews to convince them that  Christianity is the right religion. Here the Prophet they mention is likely a Jew, not an Arab (Sebeos is mentionning Jews allying with the Arabs) and therefore cannot be Muhammad nor an Arab "prophet", provided this is describing historical facts 
     
    - In sources like Jacob of Edessa, he is called a king,

    - Sebeos call him a preacher
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4462 - October 02, 2018, 03:36 PM
    Quote from: mundi on October 02, 2018, 03:20 PM
    "Prophet"

    I think it is probable that the invading troops were led by a high ego individual and seen the zeitgeist, it was probably "a prophet". Just as Joseph Smith was a prophet and led and army more than a millennium later.

    what? Led an army??  where did you get that from dear mundi ., keeping aside his religious junk, In Fact that guy was persecuted   by the American government of that time and was killed by mob..

    Quote
    Because an army lead by a prophet was so acceptable in Late Antiquity, writing the Islamic history later on including "a prophet", now given a name Muhammed was in the logic of things, not far fetched.

      Now means ... when? what year would you consider as now??

    Again I say in early Islam from the year 650  to all the way to 800 or so there were  many such religious war fares  whose leaders PROPER name could have been   "Muhammad"
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4463 - October 02, 2018, 03:54 PM
    1/Mormons: Ok, it wasn't Smith who led the army (dead already) but Brigham Young

    2/ I think the Quran must have been written by mid 630's (at least first edition). C14 dating of the old manuscript can give us an indication of from what time we can be sure that "Mohammed"was included in the text.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4464 - October 02, 2018, 04:26 PM
    Quote from: mundi on October 02, 2018, 03:54 PM
    .....................
    2/ I think the Quran must have been written by mid 630's (at least first edition). C14 dating .................

    I am not sure about that but I would love to see  some one  filtering the present book and print out that 1st edition of Quran which may be missing many critical verses/sayings in it..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4465 - October 02, 2018, 04:31 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on October 02, 2018, 03:36 PM
    No source call him a prophet.

    Doctrina Jacobi does it.


    Quote
    - Doctrina Jaccobi doesn't give any name about this so-called prophet.


    It calls a guy coming with the Saracen "prophet".

    Quote
    and this is a 670-690 text targeted at the Jews to convince them that  Christianity is the right religion.


    Why not.

    Quote
    Here the Prophet they mention is likely a Jew, not an Arab


     And you say that : "this is a 670-690 text targeted at the Jews to convince them that  Christianity is the right religion."
    Really?


    Quote
    (Sebeos is mentionning Jews allying with the Arabs) and therefore cannot be Muhammad nor an Arab "prophet", provided this is describing historical facts  


    How you link that with : "a 670-690 text targeted at the Jews to convince them that  Christianity is the right religion"?


     





  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4466 - October 02, 2018, 05:08 PM
    Jews and Arabs,

    Can't you have Jewish Arabs? Yusuf Asar was an Arab Jew who committed the Najran massacre...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4467 - October 02, 2018, 07:41 PM
    Quote from: Altara on October 02, 2018, 04:31 PM
    Doctrina Jacobi does it.


    No name is mentionned.


    Quote
    It calls a guy coming with the Saracen "prophet".


    The text doesn't tell us nothing about the link between this so-called prophet and the Saracen. Therefore, because of islamic tradition, people do think it talks about Muhammad but we don't know.



    Quote
    And you say that : "this is a 670-690 text targeted at the Jews to convince them that  Christianity is the right religion."
    Really? 



    Yes the purpose of this text is to convince Jews to convert to christianity. The hero is a jew converted to christianity by force, thrown in prison, who then ask God for help, receive a revelation that tells him his conversion was for the best and who afterwards tries to convince other jews.


    Quote
    How you link that with : "a 670-690 text targeted at the Jews to convince them that  Christianity is the right religion"?


    What bothers you here ?


     





  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4468 - October 02, 2018, 08:18 PM
    Quote
    The text doesn't tell us nothing about the link between this so-called prophet and the Saracen. Therefore, because of islamic tradition, people do think it talks about Muhammad but we don't know.


    How do you explain that for Crone it is the Prophet Muhammad?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4469 - October 02, 2018, 08:54 PM
    Like I said, because of the islamic tradition, people do think it talks about Muhammad but we don't know.
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