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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4800 - October 13, 2018, 01:42 PM
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156892669058469&set=a.10153976884813469&type=3&theater&comment_id=10156894994068469&notif_t=feedback_reaction_generic&notif_id=1539435048740654
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4801 - October 13, 2018, 03:28 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on October 13, 2018, 01:42 PM
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156892669058469&set=a.10153976884813469&type=3&theater&comment_id=10156894994068469&notif_t=feedback_reaction_generic&notif_id=1539435048740654

    Thank you...  

    So what is your view on that face  book   inference and  speculation.,   assuming   having absolutely no record,  Mecca still could have been  trading civilization  of Arabian Pagans??  and and
    Quote
    does that negate the Muslim historical claim that it was?

    What is your answer to that question??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4802 - October 13, 2018, 05:45 PM
    Here is a tweet thread that corrects Tom Holland who apparently has claimed that Mecca is not mentioned before 741. What do you think of Sean Anthony's references? Has Tom Holland misunderstood?

    https://twitter.com/shahanSean/status/936339388975501312?s=19
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4803 - October 13, 2018, 05:49 PM
    I reckon that you all are familiar with Sean Anthony's Twitter thread about the Kaba:

    https://twitter.com/shahanSean/status/936259614676570112?s=19
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4804 - October 13, 2018, 06:03 PM
    Yeah. That is correct. I also noticed that Ananias mentions Mecca. We can then be sure that the city existed prior to 690 CE.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4805 - October 13, 2018, 07:17 PM
    Quote
    Yeah. That is correct. I also noticed that Ananias mentions Mecca. We can then be sure that the city existed prior to 690 CE.


    There is no mention of "Mecca". "House of prayer" is not "Mecca". First word starts with "H" second with "M".
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4806 - October 13, 2018, 07:27 PM
    Ananaias mentions it by name.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4807 - October 13, 2018, 07:30 PM
    So does the Syriac Edessene Apocalypse (ca. 690s)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4808 - October 13, 2018, 08:01 PM
    Ananias:

    The name Mecca is there but the location is in Arabia Petraea
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4809 - October 13, 2018, 08:12 PM
    So does Ptolemy.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4810 - October 13, 2018, 08:13 PM
    But one source mentions Abrahams' house in rocky arabia?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4811 - October 13, 2018, 08:24 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on October 13, 2018, 07:27 PM
    Ananaias mentions it by name.


    Thanks to quote both texts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4812 - October 13, 2018, 08:33 PM
    Ananias: https://archive.org/stream/TheGeographyOfAnaniasOfSirak/The%20Geography%20of%20Ananias%20of%20Sirak#page/n54/mode/1up

    If you do a search on Mecca, you find the full quote (p71). Ananias equals Mecca to Pharan.


    1/What seems probable from these early sources is that quite early in Islam (maybe a pre-Islamic tradition?), the arabs had a certain praying focus. The question is where was it? Was it different places?

    2/ Where does this name "Mecca" come from? Was it the name of an existing (little) settlement? Or is it an older name stuck on the site that was decided to be a pilgrimage site having another meaning or coming from outside?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4813 - October 13, 2018, 08:47 PM
    I wonder where this Sean Anthony got his degreee as an historian.

    In everything he quotes, there is no Mecca, apart from the Syriac Edesse Apocalypse). However a quotation that is found in 2 manuscripts dating from the 17 th and 18th century doesn't give much confidence to its early dating nor the fact it is genuine.

    Other multiple sources do tell us, and should tell Sean Anthony if he were acting like a scholar and not like a muslim believer that :

    - the Ka'ba was originally not in Mecca Saudi Arabia,
    - arabs used to have a sacred place of worship in the Sinai/Neguev region, that place could not have been Petra as nobody quote its name while Petra was very well known

    Honestly this is ridiculous to behave like this.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4814 - October 13, 2018, 08:50 PM
    Proof of Mecca.

    1/If we did not have the Islamic tradition, I think there would have been consensus, based on the sources, that there was a Holy place for the 7C Arabs in Arabia Petraea

    2/ S.  Anthony certainly is not a sceptic.

    3/ Love his comment about King and Gibson. Just chooses authority above a new theory. Doesn't need to look into the arguments of either.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4815 - October 13, 2018, 08:51 PM
    Quote from: mundi on October 13, 2018, 08:33 PM

    If you do a search on Mecca, you find the full quote (p71). Ananias equals Mecca to Pharan.


    Have you read Tomas Artsruni ?

    Quote
    1/What seems probable from these early sources is that quite early in Islam (maybe a pre-Islamic tradition?), the arabs had a certain praying focus. The question is where was it? Was it different places?


    6th century chronicles will give you the answer.

    Quote
    2/ Where does this name "Mecca" come from? Was it the name of an existing (little) settlement? Or is it an older name stuck on the site that was decided to be a pilgrimage site having another meaning or coming from outside?


    Read the Bible for that name.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4816 - October 13, 2018, 08:54 PM
    Marc,

    1/ You are starting to sound like Altara and it doesnt move the discussion forward imo. If you know the answer or have additional info, just spell it out. If you think I am not worth it, just ignore my post.

    2/ Tomas Artsruni: https://books.google.be/books?id=N_JOnwEACAAJ&pg=PP7&hl=nl&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false  The Mecca quote is on p 89. But this source is later, rather 8 C, no?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4817 - October 13, 2018, 09:06 PM
    Maggraye,

    Quote from: Mahgraye on October 13, 2018, 08:13 PM
    But one source mentions Abrahams' house in rocky arabia?


    Ananias does mention "Pharanitis which is foolishly called the home of Abraham"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4818 - October 13, 2018, 09:11 PM
    Quote
    You are starting to sound like Altara


    LOL. I haven't stated "this is not the time, the place,etc,etc......" Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


    Quote
    Tomas Artsruni: https://books.google.be/books?id=N_JOnwEACAAJ&pg=PP7&hl=nl&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false  The Mecca quote is on p 89. But this source is later, rather 8 C, no?


    2 things are interesting here, and sorry to sound mysterious but I don't have the answers :

    -  This historian place also Mecca in Arabia Petra,
    - what is weird is that it is a late source but it stands quite apart from the muslim narrative ; is this the real story or an early muslim tradition (Ibn Ishaq original Sira) ?  


    I have lost where the word mecca is mentionned in the Bible (no not Bacca), hence why I am not giving the reference.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4819 - October 13, 2018, 09:17 PM
    Marc ,

    Thank you for responding with a laugh and most important , RESPONDING (means I'm worth it  Smiley )

    The early sources (Ptolomy with Mokka, Ananias and Thomas A.) all place something sounding like Mecca in A. Petraea. The historians we know will say that Ptolomy is the original source, the later ones all copy him. Who knows?

    Bible: I dont think the word Mecca is mentioned, first time I hear this..

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4820 - October 13, 2018, 09:27 PM
    Procopius, Nonnosus also speak about arab place of worship or patriarchal place of their race ; they are all situated in the Sinai/Neguev region so :

    -  there cannot be any Ka'ba/Mecca in Saudi Arabia as the craddle of islam,

    - the real question is why that place Mecca was chosen in Saudi Arabia and, when I say why I don't mean the purpose behind it as that is quite clear (a lost place was needed to build the narrative of the islam prophet) but why that specific place.

    There is a place called mecca in the Bible ; I saw it but this might have nothing to do with the Quranic Mecca.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4821 - October 13, 2018, 09:29 PM
    You are probably referring to Bakkah which is indeed mentioned in the Old Testament.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4822 - October 13, 2018, 09:40 PM
    Quote
    You are probably referring to Bakkah which is indeed mentioned in the Old Testament.


    No. This is a different place than Bacca mentionned in Psalms 84.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4823 - October 13, 2018, 09:47 PM
    Hmm. Interesting. Please provide the reference(s), if you have them.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4824 - October 14, 2018, 06:48 AM
    Quote
    Quote from: Marc S on October 13, 2018, 09:40 PM
    No. This is a different place than Bacca mentionned in Psalms 84.

    Quote from: Mahgraye on October 13, 2018, 09:47 PM
    Hmm. Interesting. Please provide the reference(s), if you have them.


     Cheesy    Marc S   is reading his bible but you  are neither reading Quran nor reading bible dear Mahgraye   Cheesy
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4825 - October 14, 2018, 07:01 AM
    Quote
    Procopius, Nonnosus also speak about arab place of worship or patriarchal place of their race ; they are all situated in the Sinai/Neguev


    1/So from this view, an early mosque pointing to Petra or another place in the area would be in the logic of pre-islamic sources

    2/Petra might not have been mentioned as such in the early sources, but neither is another place. So it is not an argument for or against it.

    3/We have the archaeological ruins of an enormous necropole in Petra. The carved grottos were not for habitation but for ancestry devotion. That corresponds with pre-islamic sources of ancestral worship

    4/Maybe there are other places too in Negev/Sinai that culd be a fit?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4826 - October 14, 2018, 07:14 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on October 13, 2018, 08:12 PM
    So does Ptolemy.


    Nope. He mentions "Macoraba" and Moka. It is interesting to note that this topic "Mecca before Islam" is less and less mentioned by scholars since "Meccan trade". They do not speak of it anymore. No paper, etc.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4827 - October 14, 2018, 07:31 AM
    Ptolomy mentions Moka in the Sinai. Let's forget about Macoroba.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4828 - October 14, 2018, 08:01 AM
    Quote from: Altara on October 14, 2018, 07:14 AM
    Nope. He mentions "Macoraba" and Moka. It is interesting to note that this topic "Mecca before Islam" is less and less mentioned by scholars since "Meccan trade". They do not speak of it anymore. No paper, etc.

    well  that took almost 20 years ..  She published it in 1987...

    So Question to you Altara.,  How many years do you think it will take for Academic Scholars of Islam  to start singing your song "Mecca, Muhammad, Zamzam , kabba"   Cheesy and start looking in to the origin of   PRESENT Quran and origin of Islam at different places  out of Arabian desert?
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4829 - October 14, 2018, 08:19 AM
    There is no "Mecca" in the Hijaz before Islam as recounted by Ibn Ishaq. Because it is in this frame that the story of Muhammad  supposed producer of the Quran and starting point of armies to conquest because of the Quran  is recounted and not another one.

    To Mundi
    Petra is not as well  "Mecca";  simply because it is very improbable that in a Christian scribal city a man talking to God during 20 years this story was not known by anyone. End of story. Petra  as the "real" Mecca is an impasse of this simple fact and this hypothesis has to be put aside definitively.  Gibson can say what he wants he is not  graduated nor an historian. If it was, he would have note only the two following points :
    As I already said the two things which is interesting about Petra is that 1/ the first mosques tend to be pointed to it and 2/ to describe "Mecca" in the Hijaz, the 9th c. narratives take example of the Petra map, because they think that "Mecca" in the Hijaz at  the time of the "prophet" as recounted by Ibn Ishaq (big city of commerce etc,.), the city must have looked like Petra which had been really a big city of commerce.  The explication is as simple as that.
    Petra is not "Mecca" but it could have been taken as "Mecca" by the first builders of mosques, and was taken as an example of what was the city of the "prophet" by the narratives of the 9th c.
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