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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 1502899 times)
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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5670 - March 02, 2019, 06:42 PM
    Reading that lunatic Popp is better than wasting your valuable time on Abu Layth. Standard liberal talking points.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5671 - March 02, 2019, 06:59 PM
    M,

    Bad day? What's wrong with a liberal imam?

    He does seem to have some "minority and fringe Islamic opinions"as shown towards the end of this article:

    https://5pillarsuk.com/2017/06/08/controversial-mufti-who-was-jailed-for-illegal-plot-shunned-by-prominent-moroccan-cleric/

     Huh?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5672 - March 02, 2019, 07:05 PM
    Nah. Thanks for asking, haha. I just think it is a waste of time.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5673 - March 02, 2019, 07:17 PM
    Lunatic Popp:

    Do you have an article refuting his finds? He weaves his alternative history around these numismatic finds. I am sure alternatives have been voiced.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5674 - March 02, 2019, 07:18 PM
    Sure. You can read Jonathan Brockopp, among others. You also have Stefan Heidemann.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5675 - March 02, 2019, 09:03 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 02, 2019, 06:25 PM
    Haha. So true. And he does not share anything.


    Because you have to find it yourself, because if you find it yourself you will accept it. From me, you will not.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5676 - March 03, 2019, 09:19 AM
    Thanks for all the replies on my comment. Here is an interesting thread on van Putten´s Twitter page. Before I have asked "nuts" questions on twitter and once May Shaddel became so irritated. So instead I ask you. What is "Sabʿat ʾAḥruf hadith...". that van Putten here refer to?
    There are obviously 10 canonical readings. I guess that means readings which have been accepted by the Muslim scholars as "authentic". But how can then a student of van Putten find a canonical reading?

    On this twitter thread a person named Orbi (he was the one that told me about this forum) ask some interesting questions.

    "What is the Quran for you? The rasm? or the 10 readings fixed a few centuries after revelation? Can you be more precise?"

    Question is how much of these variations were propagated into modern times ( before Cairo 1924). Apparently only Jay Smith is counting :-)"

    https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1100854067692294149
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5677 - March 03, 2019, 09:44 AM
    I mixed it up a bit here. The students of van Putten found a vocalisation that was canonical.
     "Svar til @kwo_vadis @minkdev
    Probably not all (student of mine found a clearly canonical one!), but yes surprisingly many (probably the majority) of manuscripts before the canonization of the reading traditions deviate markedly from what the literary traditions tell us."
    https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1101485600732000258
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5678 - March 03, 2019, 12:04 PM
    The seven aḥruf is not the same as the seven readings. The aḥruf are but variants that Muḥammad allowed his Companions to recite. Uthman then eliminated the remaining six and only collected one in his official recension. Today's consonantal skeleton is thus is only one of the seven aḥruf.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5679 - March 03, 2019, 02:14 PM
    Quote
    The seven aḥruf is not the same as the seven readings.


    It is what is affirmed by the narratives. One can think that aḥruf is the word by which different reading were recorded as it was impossible to putting them aside Later it was "qiraat " which was used  to describe exactly the same thing : each scribe belonging to different groups who own the consonantal text deciphered their own way the rasm. Logically their reading were different (yawn...)as there is no oral tradition (bis).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5680 - March 03, 2019, 02:23 PM
    Quote from: mundi on March 02, 2019, 06:40 PM
    What has he done? Heretic, apostate? ( I just listened 30 min to him, maybe I should do the full hour... I thought reading Popp was a better use of my time, I might be wrong)


    No you were right. Popp got some things wrong but he brings some insight no other scholar does but, to paraphrase Altara, you need to find it yourself  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5681 - March 03, 2019, 02:26 PM
    The aḥruf are not the same as the readings. Had that been the case, the readings would be known to us by the names of Companions, not by the names of second-century scholars. And if these second-century scholars were attempting to reconstruct the ahruf, then they would have disagreed with each other systematically. They did not.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5682 - March 03, 2019, 02:30 PM
    Marc,

    Quote
    No you were right. Popp got some things wrong but he brings some insight no other scholar does but, to paraphrase Altara, you need to find it yourself


    Oh no!!!!!! Altara's attitude is getting to be contagious. We can only handle 1 Altara. Pleas remain yourself. Cry
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5683 - March 03, 2019, 02:33 PM
    Ahruf:

    If that was decided on in the time of Uthman (which rasm was the correct one), we don't know if it is true. All sources claiming that are much later.

    So is it correct to say that the tradition claims that one ahruf was selected by Uthman?

    I think there are arguments to counter that. The early C14's point to an earlier stabilisation of the rasm.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5684 - March 03, 2019, 02:34 PM
    Even "normal" muslims struggle to explain what are harf /ahruf and qira'at.

    In the end, the Quranic text was not transmitted unchanged throughout the years so, in face of those differences, the muslim scholars came up with these "explanations". You only need to read the harf hadith with 'Umar al-Khattab and Hishâm b. Hakîm to understand this. On top of that, old manuscripts show ahruf that differ from the tradition.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5685 - March 03, 2019, 02:37 PM
    Marc,

    The rasms show some variation but very little. That shows how strict and important that it was from the onset, to preserve that. That alone is very interesting.

    The contrary can be said of the vocalisation (readings). Apparently some centuries later (10C?) a big sweep of all variants was made and were all canonised. Simple solution to a big problem.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5686 - March 03, 2019, 02:45 PM
    An interesting paper from a very controversial muslim and muslim website (quaranist I think) on the different readings of the Quran.

    http://www.free-minds.org/sites/default/files/WhichQuran.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5687 - March 03, 2019, 02:47 PM
    Quote from: mundi on March 03, 2019, 02:30 PM
    Marc,

    Oh no!!!!!! Altara's attitude is getting to be contagious. We can only handle 1 Altara. Pleas remain yourself. Cry


    Ah ha ha Popp's readings of the dating system on coins is very interesting and differs here from most scholars who try and reconcile them with the muslim narrative. It however does raise some questions on which I think he doesn't get the right answers.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5688 - March 03, 2019, 02:54 PM
    Marc,

    On Popp:
    Interesting to see how one can build a complete different narrative based on these coins. His emphasis on the Eastern part of the new Arabian empire is interesting. In our discussion we often concentrate on the Western part bc the correction with Quran seems obvious.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5689 - March 03, 2019, 03:01 PM
    Altara will tell you he told you many times to look east  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5690 - March 03, 2019, 03:03 PM
    Marc,

    True, but strangely it's Popp that convinced me and not Altara. Why would that be? Huh?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5691 - March 03, 2019, 03:05 PM
    Quote
    So is it correct to say that the tradition claims that one ahruf was selected by Uthman?


    Yes. The tradition differentiates between the ahruf and the readings. No early Muslim conflated the two.

    Quote
    The early C14's point to an earlier stabilization of the rasm.


    Half these datings are wrong.

    Quote
    An interesting paper from a very controversial muslim and muslim website (quaranist I think) on the different readings of the Quran.


    What is the gist? He seems to conflate the ahruf and the readings.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5692 - March 03, 2019, 03:09 PM
    Quote from: mundi on March 03, 2019, 03:03 PM
    Marc,

    True, but strangely it's Popp that convinced me and not Altara. Why would that be? Huh?


    The Darajbird coins maybe  ?  Wink Wink Wink

    You don't need Popp nor Altara to look east ; a look at the muslim narrative is enough, the fact that they were never in Mecca after the "death" of Muhammad and the fact the Abassids rose from the east is enough to understand something is wrong.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5693 - March 03, 2019, 03:20 PM
    Rather the fact that the West did not managed really well Iraq.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5694 - March 03, 2019, 03:21 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 03, 2019, 03:05 PM

    What is the gist? He seems to conflate the ahruf and the readings.


    Yep but his Hafs/Warsh study is interesting.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5695 - March 03, 2019, 03:22 PM
    Then he is wrong. Anything you want to highlight from his comparison?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5696 - March 03, 2019, 03:25 PM
    Just read that he considers differences in vocalization to be significant differences. Sigh. He, too, appears to be ignorant of the Muslims tradition and what it actually proclaims. I guess I have to get back to finishing my own essay on the matter, not that scholars have not already addressed all of this.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5697 - March 03, 2019, 03:29 PM
    I guess the matter of "significant" or "non significant" difference is a matter of opinion. If you adhere to the muslim narrative, only one difference is enough to kill the myth ; if you look at this by putting aside the muslim mystique then you don't really have significant difference.

    He is not a scholar by the way.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5698 - March 03, 2019, 03:33 PM
    Quote
    only one difference is enough to kill the myth


    This is incorrect. This is precisely what the problem is: unfamiliarity with the actual Muslim claim. I discuss this in my essay.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5699 - March 03, 2019, 03:42 PM
    Lecture by Fred M. Donner (2019) - “Islam's Origins: Myth and Material Evidence”

    Quote
    The traditional narrative of Islam’s origins centers on the career of the prophet Muhammad (d. 632 CE) in Arabia and the rapid spread of his movement throughout the Near East immediately after his death. Over the past half-century, however, scholars have come to realize that this picture is the product of the Islamic community of the eighth, ninth, and later centuries and that its goal of providing a satisfying narrative may not accurately reflect how Islam actually began and grew into the major world religion we know today. In this lecture, Fred M. Donner argues that a more historically accurate view of Islam’s origins has been hindered by the scarcity of documentary evidence from the seventh century and considers some of the key sources that may help us understand these momentous events in Islamic history.


    https://vimeo.com/315189668
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