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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5730 - March 04, 2019, 01:08 PM
    The Quran proclaims Jesus to be “the Messiah, son of Mary,”
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5731 - March 04, 2019, 01:12 PM
    “the Messiah” (al-masīḥ); “the Messiah son of Mary” (al-masīḥ b. Maryam); “the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary” (al-masīḥ ʿĪsā b. Maryam).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5732 - March 04, 2019, 01:54 PM
    The issue here is that Gallez (not the Quran, not YOU, but Gallez) read/understand the word  "Messiah" used  in the Quran as signifying the same thing as in Christianity : a  theological "title" of Jesus. Where, in the Quran, is validated this meaning that "Messiah"  is a  theological "title" of Jesus ? Nowhere. Only Christian people say "Jesus the Messiah". Muslims are Christians then? I do not think so. Then why the  Quran use the expression “the Messiah, Jesus"  Is there an explication to that?
    Of course there is an explication about the use of "Messiah" about Jesus (hahaha!) but it is not the place... (hahaha!) But trust me I have one. How did I find one then?
    Putting aside the Mecca/Medina/Kaba frame as the explication of the origin of the Quran.

    If you cannot understand what I say, I do not see how to say it differently.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5733 - March 04, 2019, 02:29 PM
    Quote from: Altara on March 04, 2019, 12:58 PM

    Therefore yes "Muhammad" meaning  can be sufficiently ambiguous to qualify the Quranic Jesus in the Dome inscription since "Messiah" qualifier in the Quran has none meaning.



    Gallez does agree with the ambiguity but the point he raise is different, unless someone believes that not all the Dome of the Rock writings were done at the same time. I myself sometimes like to think they were done much more lather than the construction of the building but I haven't seriously looked into it yet.

    And there is another major difficulty, relative to the Dome of the Rock itself, which Alfred-Louis de Prémare († 2006) actually addresses and lays open in his own contribution to the book. On page 191, without appearing to do so and with his usual kindness and erudition, he calls attention to another inscription of the Dome along the outward side by the northern door:
    “We believe in God and in what has come down upon muhammad, and in that which the prophets have received from their Lord; we make no distinction, and to Him, we are indebted.”
    In this text (which appears today as a compound of verses 136 and 185 in sura 2, AlBaqarah), the term « muhammad » can only be made sense of as a proper name. Henceforth, we
    can reasonably wonder about the actual credibility of a different meaning attributed to the same term (« muhammad ») as found in the other inscription on the inward face of the same Dome! Are there any credible reasons to think that the inscriptions found along the outward face of the same Dome may have been altered (except for the name of ‘Abd al-Malik, which really was replaced with that of a successor, Al-Mamun)?

    Quote
    Of course there is an explication about the use of "Messiah" about Jesus (hahaha!) but it is not the place... (hahaha!) But trust me I have one. How did I find one then?
    Putting aside the Mecca/Medina/Kaba frame as the explication of the origin of the Quran.


    Not sure what the Mecca/Medina/Kaba frame has to do with the Messiah title of Jesus.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5734 - March 04, 2019, 02:55 PM
    Quote
    Gallez does agree with the ambiguity


    It is then necessary ambiguous, Gallez or not. “Muhammad[un] ‘abdu Llahi warasuluhu”=“Praised be the Servant of God [= Jesus] and [= he also is] His messenger” is perfectly grammatically acceptable (cf. Kropp). And as there is none other figure known at that time apart Jesus who has in the Quran the same attributes ‘abdu Llahi warasuluhu, as an unknown prophet (at that time) which will be described 100 years later  as a figure who once existed, the fact that the Dome inscription relates to the Quranic Jesus  (and not to Mecca/Kaba prophet) is possible. I say "possible", no more, no less.

    Quote
    Not sure what the Mecca/Medina/Kaba frame has to do with the Messiah title of Jesus.

    The Messiah appellation (it is a title for the Christian) of Jesus present in the Quran. Quran supposed coming from the Mecca/Medina/Kaba frame.
    Putting aside the Mecca/Medina/Kaba frame as the explication of the origin of the Quran allows to find an explication to that curious use of the theological Christian title "Messiah" to Jesus in the Quran.
    What explication? I won't tell it here (haha!) But trust me, I have a very good one.

     

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5735 - March 04, 2019, 03:12 PM
    Quote
    And there is another major difficulty, relative to the Dome of the Rock itself, which Alfred-Louis de Prémare († 2006) actually addresses and lays open in his own contribution to the book. On page 191, without appearing to do so and with his usual kindness and erudition, he calls attention to another inscription of the Dome along the outward side by the northern door:


    Carlos A. Segovia addresses this very point in his latest monograph.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5736 - March 04, 2019, 03:23 PM
    Quote
    And as there is none other figure known at that time apart Jesus who has in the Quran the same attributes ‘abdu Llahi warasuluhu, as an unknown prophet (at that time) which will be described 100 years later  as a figure who once existed, the fact that the Dome inscription relates to the Quranic Jesus  (and not to Mecca/Kaba prophet) is possible.


    The way this sentence was phrased is a bit confusing. Are you saying that only Jesus was described by that phrase or that another, unknown prophet also had that description who later became historicized? 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5737 - March 04, 2019, 04:06 PM
    Quote
    The way this sentence was phrased is a bit confusing. Are you saying that only Jesus was described by that phrase or that another, unknown prophet also had that description who later became historicized? 


    And as there is none other figure known at that time apart Jesus who has in the Quran the same attributes ‘abdu Llahi warasuluhu,  and that the Dome inscription has extracts of Quranic texts (cf. Kropp)  one can think that  the Dome inscription deals only with the Quranic Jesus.

    But as, later, a figure "Praised be the Servant of God" i.e. the "possible" and grammatically acceptable qualifier of Jesus in the Dome can become "Muhammad the prophet of Islam".
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5738 - March 04, 2019, 04:21 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on March 04, 2019, 02:29 PM


    And there is another major difficulty, relative to the Dome of the Rock itself, which Alfred-Louis de Prémare († 2006) actually addresses and lays open in his own contribution to the book. On page 191, without appearing to do so and with his usual kindness and erudition, he calls attention to another inscription

    Another inscription therefore not related to the interior one.

    Quote from: Marc S on March 04, 2019, 02:29 PM
    of the Dome along the outward side by the northern door:
    “We believe in God and in what has come down upon muhammad, and in that which the prophets have received from their Lord; we make no distinction, and to Him, we are indebted.”
    In this text (which appears today as a compound of verses 136 and 185 in sura 2, AlBaqarah), the term « muhammad » can only be made sense of as a proper name. Henceforth, we
    can reasonably wonder about the actual credibility of a different meaning attributed to the same term (« muhammad ») as found in the other inscription on the inward face of the same Dome!


    Idem. I speak (like Kropp, etc) of the interior one.



    Quote
    Are there any credible reasons to think that the inscriptions found along the outward face of the same Dome may have been altered (except for the name of ‘Abd al-Malik, which really was replaced with that of a successor, Al-Mamun)?[/i]


    de Prémare did not get it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5739 - March 04, 2019, 04:34 PM
    Quote from: Altara on March 04, 2019, 02:55 PM
    The Messiah appellation (it is a title for the Christian) of Jesus present in the Quran. Quran supposed coming from the Mecca/Medina/Kaba frame.
    Putting aside the Mecca/Medina/Kaba frame as the explication of the origin of the Quran allows to find an explication to that curious use of the theological Christian title "Messiah" to Jesus in the Quran.
    What explication? I won't tell it here (haha!) But trust me, I have a very good one.


    I am still not sure about the issue you want to raise as I see no one. In English, we say Jesus Christ and this means Jesus the Messiah so I see nothing odd in the way the Quran portrays it, not to mention that the Mecca/Medina/Kaba frame doesn't deny his Messiah role. One reason the Quran might be insisting on this title is just to argue against the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah they are still expecting. Christians make the same claim.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5740 - March 04, 2019, 04:37 PM
    let me rephrase  this post of Mahgraye  as points..  
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 04, 2019, 01:04 PM

     This does not make sense. Where does the Quran proclaim that Jesus was born of a virgin? Only Christians believe that Jesus was born of a virgin. This is a theological doctrine . Are Muslims Christian because they believe that Jesus was born of a virgin? Can you please explain your ideas in more detail? The meaning of Messiah in the Quran, that is.

      So  let me re-read that  as points

    Quote
    point_1  ..  Where does the Quran proclaim that Jesus was born of a virgin?

    point_2...  This is a theological doctrine . Are Muslims Christian because they believe that Jesus was born of a virgin?

    point_3 ...  Can you please explain your ideas in more detail? The meaning of Messiah in the Quran, that is.

    So going backward  from point_3 ...,  well Altara  will never explain anything in detail...  so there is no help there dear Mahgraye  ..  Cheesy

     But much what  Mahgraye says there is about Quran.  And when it comes Quran., IT IS BETTER TO READ QURAN THAN READING SO-CALLED SCHOLARS OF QURAN.,   after all it is a open book accessible to all., And  as usual  i love reading Quran .. So let me read  Messiah verbatim from Quran   ..

    Quote
    Surah Aal-i-Imraan,  Verse #45 :    When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him  whose name is the '. messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near

    An-Nisaa,   Verse #157 : And their saying: Surely we have killed the messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

    An-Nisaa,  Verse #171: O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector

    An-Nisaa, Verse #172: The messiah does by no means disdain that he should be a servant of Allah, nor do the angels who are near to Him, and whoever disdains His service and is proud, He will gather them all together to Himself.

    Al-Maaida , Verse #17: Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely, Allah-- He is the messiah, son of Marium. Say: Who then could control anything as against Allah when He wished to destroy the messiah son of Marium and his mother and all those on the earth? And Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them; He creates what He pleases; and Allah has power over all things,

    Al-Maaida,  Verse #72:  Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the messiah, son of Marium; and the messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.

    Al-Maaida=, Verse #75: The messiah, son of Marium is but an apostle; apostles before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman; they both used to eat food. See how We make the communications clear to them, then behold, how they are turned away.

    At-Tawba, Verse #30: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

    At-Tawba , Verse #31: They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the messiah son of Marium and they were enjoined that they should serve one Allah only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him).


     on point_2...  This is a theological doctrine . Are Muslims Christian because they believe that Jesus was born of a virgin?

    Are Muslims Christian because they believe that Jesus was born of a virgin?... Why not ?  Muslims those who follow in Christ and Christ preachings/stories( real or unreal) specailly in the initial formative  early stages of Islam could be Christians..  Can be called as Christians/ Christian sect...


    on point_1...   Where does the Quran proclaim that Jesus was born of a virgin?

    well that is simple.   read Quran.. let us read someQuran...

    Quote
    Al-Anbiyaa,  Verse #91:  And she who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our inspiration and made her and her son a sign for the nations.

    At-Tahrim, Verse #12: And Marium, the daughter of Imran, who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our inspiration and she accepted the truth of the words of her Lord and His books, and she was of, the obedient ones.


    Well who is that "We" in that   We breathed into her??  Allah  breaths  in to a lady...  kid  comes out of her.....  that is word of Allah.. god.. whatever... off course in literal sense it is nonsense....
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5741 - March 04, 2019, 06:34 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on March 04, 2019, 04:34 PM
    I am still not sure about the issue you want to raise as I see no one. In English, we say Jesus Christ and this means Jesus the Messiah so I see nothing odd in the way the Quran portrays it, not to mention that the Mecca/Medina/Kaba frame doesn't deny his Messiah role. One reason the Quran might be insisting on this title is just to argue against the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah they are still expecting. Christians make the same claim.


    You raised issue, not me :

    Quote from: Marc S
    Not sure what the Mecca/Medina/Kaba frame has to do with the Messiah title of Jesus.


    And I responded to this  :

    The Messiah appellation (it is a title for the Christian) of Jesus present in the Quran. Quran supposed coming from the Mecca/Medina/Kaba frame.
    Putting aside the Mecca/Medina/Kaba frame as the explication of the origin of the Quran allows to find an explication to that curious use of the theological Christian title "Messiah" to Jesus in the Quran.
    What explication? I won't tell it here (haha!) But trust me, I have a very good one.

    Quote
    In English, we say Jesus Christ and this means Jesus the Messiah so I see nothing odd in the way the Quran portrays it,


    Get quickly to your Christian theology about "Messiah", and tell us if it agrees with the Quranic Jesus (I insist Quranic Jesus...)

     
    Quote
    not to mention that the Mecca/Medina/Kaba frame doesn't deny his Messiah role.


    Of course it is. You seems to not knowing basic Christian theology.

    Quote
    One reason the Quran might be insisting on this title is just to argue against the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah they are still expecting. Christians make the same claim.


    Get to Christian theology.





  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5742 - March 04, 2019, 10:30 PM
    Quote
    Get to Christian theology.


    No I don't need that. You need to explain your issue by comparing the 2 definitions side by side.

    I am not even sure when you say the Quranic Jesus if you are talking about the Quran or about Islam ; it is not the same thing for an obvious reason. A lot of scholars want to explain the Quranic Jesus by talking about the islamic Jesus.
    I never understood that. In fact, I understand but that is ridiculous.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5743 - March 04, 2019, 11:38 PM
    Quranic Jesus is the guy described in the Quran. I'm not cognizant of an "islamic Jesus" I do not know what that is...


    Since you do not see any difference between the Messiah concept according to Christianity and personified by Jesus of Nazareth and the Quranic Jesus qualified as Messiah such as he is described (in detail) by the Quran, there seems have a clear problem (for you) to understand what I say because you lack Christian theological knowledge, evidenced in this phrase : " [About the Quranic Jesus] not to mention that the Mecca/Medina/Kaba frame doesn't deny his Messiah role. " to which I've responded : Of course it is (deny his Messiah role).
     "the Mecca/Medina/Kaba frame" for me is the Quran supposed coming from there as recounted by the Muslim narrative
    It seems clear to me that you have no idea of what is the Messiah role of Jesus according to Christianity. Therefore I invite you to read stuff on this and to come back later.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5744 - March 05, 2019, 12:09 AM
    Quote
    Quranic Jesus is the guy described in the Quran. I'm not cognizant of an "islamic Jesus" I do not know what that is...


    Because they are one and only for you otherwise you will notice the difference


    I am the one who caused some of your confusion so let me clarify :

    - The Islamic Jesus is the Jesus described with your Mecca/Medina/Kaba frame,

    - The Quranic Jesus is the one the Quran talk about and who is a mix of different christian beliefs,

    - however the Messiah title of Jesus in the Quran has nothing to do with the Mecca/Median/Kaba frame


    By the way, how do you read this quranic verse  (Surah 21, verse 107) And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], except as a mercy to the worlds.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5745 - March 05, 2019, 12:10 AM
    Quote
    By the way, how do you read this quranic verse  (Surah 21, verse 107) And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], except as a mercy to the worlds.


    Just realized this, does this not sound Jesus-esk?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5746 - March 05, 2019, 12:19 AM
    I don't know  Wink

    surah 21, verse 91, And [mention] the one who guarded her chastity, so We blew into her [garment] through Our angel [Gabriel], and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5747 - March 05, 2019, 12:25 AM
    Quote
    I don't know Wink


    Haha. I'll take this as a yes.

    Quote
    surah 21, verse 91, And [mention] the one who guarded her chastity, so We blew into her [garment] through Our angel [Gabriel], and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds.


    Not sure I follow what you are getting at, but this verse seems to connect with the previous one, especially the terminology of "worlds" and that it also speaks about Jesus.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5748 - March 05, 2019, 12:57 AM
    Quote from: Marc S on March 05, 2019, 12:09 AM
    Because they are one and only for you otherwise you will notice the difference

     


    Quote
    - The Islamic Jesus is the Jesus described with your Mecca/Medina/Kaba frame,


    Therefore the Quran one.

    Quote
    - The Quranic Jesus is the one the Quran talk about and who is a mix of different christian beliefs,


    Idem.
    Quote
    - however the Messiah title of Jesus in the Quran has nothing to do with the Mecca/Median/Kaba frame


    He has to to with what?


    Quote
    By the way, how do you read this quranic verse  (Surah 21, verse 107) And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], except as a mercy to the worlds.


    Strange formulation... beyond that, seems related to eschatology (previous and next verses) .Sent as a warner of the end of times, etc.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5749 - March 05, 2019, 07:49 AM
    Quote
    It seems clear to me that you have no idea of what is the Messiah role of Jesus according to Christianity.


    Question is here did the Quranic author(s) have an idea what the Messiah role of Jesus in Christianity was? That will tell us a lot about the author.

    Ask an average christian today who has been sitting in a church every week what the role of the Messiah is, and probably you will NOT get a correct theological answer.

    Does the Quran show in depth knowledge of the subject or not? Important is indeed what 7th C concept of Messiah was. Altara, you seem very well versed in Christian theology, why dont you give your view without telling us to find out ourselves?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5750 - March 05, 2019, 10:39 AM
    Quote
    Question is here did the Quranic author(s) have an idea what the Messiah role of Jesus in Christianity was? That will tell us a lot about the author.


    What you think?
    Quote
    Does the Quran show in depth knowledge of the subject or not? Important is indeed what 7th C concept of Messiah was. Altara, you seem very well versed in Christian theology, why dont you give your view without telling us to find out ourselves?


    I'm just versed to things useful to have some responses about the Quranic author(s).


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5751 - March 05, 2019, 11:31 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 05, 2019, 12:25 AM
    Haha. I'll take this as a yes.

    Not sure I follow what you are getting at, but this verse seems to connect with the previous one, especially the terminology of "worlds" and that it also speaks about Jesus.


    This is just one of the tricks how the muslims did change the meaning of the Quranic text and lowered the role of Jesus vs what the Quran actually said on the topic.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5752 - March 05, 2019, 11:53 AM
    Quote
    This is just one of the tricks how the muslims did change the meaning of the Quranic text and lowered the role of Jesus vs what the Quran actually said on the topic.


    To convince of your Luling conjecture  (one first Christian Quran and "muslims" rewriters on it)
    You will need to respond to many questions : - who are the first Christian Quran writers, then the "muslims" rewriters, where does they come from, etc.
    If not, it is your own conjecture in a restaurant discussion, it has no scholarship value...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5753 - March 05, 2019, 12:07 PM
    Scholars largely agree that the earliest layers were more "Christian".
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5754 - March 05, 2019, 12:43 PM
    It is not what Marc (exactly) says :
    Quote
    This is just one of the tricks how the muslims did change the meaning of the Quranic text and lowered the role of Jesus vs what the Quran actually said on the topic.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5755 - March 05, 2019, 01:23 PM
    Quote from: Marc S asks  on March 05, 2019, 12:09 AM
    ...........By the way, how do you read this quranic verse  (Surah 21, verse 107) And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], except as a mercy to the worlds.


    Hi Marc  ...  what is the big deal about reading that verse??   well let me read it...

    Quote
    Yusuf Ali 107:    We sent thee not, but as a Mercy for all creatures.

    Shakir 107:    And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds.

    Pickthal 107:    We sent thee not save as a mercy for the peoples.

    Mohsin Khan: 107:    And We have sent you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): not but as a mercy for the 'Alamin (mankind, jinn and all that exists).

    Saheeh: 107:    And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], except as a mercy to the worlds.


    well  anyone who can read English can read that statement?  I deleted that word "Muhammad"  because it is NOT there in original Arabic Āyah   ...but otherwise it is a simple statement .. Do you think there is SOME HIDDEN MESSAGE IN IT??

    with best
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5756 - March 05, 2019, 01:23 PM
    Quote from: Altara on March 05, 2019, 11:53 AM
    To convince of your Luling conjecture  


    I didn't mention Luling and my comment has nothing to do with his assumptions.

    Quote
    (one first Christian Quran and "muslims" rewriters on it)


    Most of the time, you try and rephrase what I wrote and get it wrong. You make the same mistake as the today average muslim who claim the Quran says Jews and Christian did rewrite their books while the Quran only say Jews and Christians did change the meaning of the texts (interpretation is not rewriting but these muslims reading of the texts is distorted by themselves.)

    Quote
    You will need to respond to many questions : - who are the first Christian Quran writers,


    I don't know who took existing texts and re-arranged them the way they are. However, you can still know where some of those texts come from ; for example, Jesus molding glaze into living birds comes from the Gospel of the Infancy whose authors is not known for example.

    Quote
    then the "muslims" rewriters, where does they come from, etc.


    All the tafseers writers, all the people who translate the Quranic texts and add words in brackets in their translation of the texts in arabic that don't have those words. The list is long.

    Quote
    If not, it is your own conjecture in a restaurant discussion, it has no scholarship value...


    Tafseers minored Jesus role as per Quranic texts ; this is a fact, not conjecture except if you buy the Mecca/Medina/Kaba frame Smiley


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5757 - March 05, 2019, 01:26 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on March 05, 2019, 01:23 PM
    Hi Marc  ...  what is the big deal about reading that verse??   well let me read it...

    with best
    yeezevee


    Well, this verse is a common quote from muslims to state that Muhammad was sent for mankind ; but this verse is about Jesus, not Muhammad. This is how you change the meaning of the text wxithout changing the words. Jesus is much bigger in the Quran than people usually think.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5758 - March 05, 2019, 01:31 PM
    Quote
    Quote from: yeezevee  says on March 05, 2019, 01:23 PM
    Hi Marc  ...  what is the big deal about reading that verse??   well let me read it...
     

    Quote from: Marc S  responds on March 05, 2019, 01:26 PM
    Well, this verse is a common quote from muslims to state that Muhammad was sent for mankind ; but this verse is about Jesus, not Muhammad. This is how you change the meaning of the text wxithout changing the words. Jesus is much bigger in the Quran than people usually think.



    oh my goodness .. you threw lot on plate..    let me dissect it...
     
    Quote
    Well, this verse is a common quote from muslims to state that Muhammad was sent for mankind ; 

     
    rubbish .. ONLY FOOLS QUOTE SINGLE VERSE and try to assert its meaning ..  that is nonsense..

    Quote
    but this verse is about Jesus, not Muhammad.

    who said that??  how did you get to that conclusion?  why it could not be another prophet of Islam .. say.. "Moses"
    Quote
    This is how you change the meaning of the text wxithout changing the words.

    well  that is your opinion., and you have the right to air it and I havethe right to Question your conclusion on that verse

    Quote
    Jesus is much bigger in the Quran than people usually think.

    Oh I agree with that..   there is no question about it and In fact  ALL PROPHETS MENTIONED IN QURAN ARE BIGGER THAN  "MUHAMMAD"
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5759 - March 05, 2019, 01:44 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 05, 2019, 12:07 PM
    Scholars largely agree that the earliest layers were more "Christian".

    Hi   Mahgraye  how do we or scholars......figure that out   what  Surahs and verses of Quran constitute earlier layers in that book??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
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