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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5910 - March 10, 2019, 04:43 PM

    Do you claim that there were no Jews in the Ḥijāz? Are there no sources documenting their presence? What about Medina?

    The present Saudi Arabia  geographic area "Hijaz "  is different from  "Mecca.. Madina.. Muhammad..Zam zam.. story"

    Different way of putting that question is.,    Were there any Jewish folks at that time in the present Saudi Arabia physical boundaries.?

    Answer is    biiig Yesssss...

    Quote
    Haggai Mazuz wrote (The Religious and Spiritual Life of Jews in Medina, 1):
     

    And what about the this statement, also from Mazuz:




    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5911 - March 10, 2019, 05:25 PM

    I have not mentionned Anastasius here. 


    Be more precise of what you're talking about then.

    Quote
    Nope. My assumption is very different.


    As one does not know it, one makes conjectures.

    Quote
    Unfortunately, you didn't read what I wrote.


    Be more precise of what you're talking about then.

    Quote
    Nope, I had always said so but you didn't read me.


    Be more precise of what you're talking about then.

    Quote
    Koren/Nevo disapprove your conjecture, as well as the dialog between John and the Amir, :

    "Textual evidence that such a creed exist has been given above. There is also a body of epigraphical evidence from the Negue, in the form of a highly unusual frequency occurrence of the name Abraham (Abraamos, Abraamios,etc,etc...)in the 6th century Negev Greek texts, both inscriptions and papyri.......The adherents to the religion of Abraham, it seems, showed ap reference for living in the region to which Hagar fled and where Ismael dwelt - traditionnally considered to be the west-southwest corner of the northern Negev, the Gaza-Elusa-Nessana area"   Crossroads to Islam


    1/ Nevo is an archaeologist.
    2/Page? (yawn...)

    Quote
    By the way the Chronicle of Khuzistan, mentionning the Dome of Abraham, and Anastasius, mentionning the sacred place of the Arabs though in that case of Anastasius it might have been a pagan center, do tie up with this Abrahamism.


    For me (as always...) One does not have enough information to tie up both.



    Quote
    Could you do us a favor and specifically tell us :

    - what are those exact C14 results you refer to so namely manuscripts and dating ?


    Déroche detail the C14 in one of his numerous courses . I do not remember a what date : the first year I think but...I'm not sure.
    https://www.college-de-france.fr/site/francois-deroche/course-2015-04-07-14h30.htm

    Quote
    - a link to the exact quotation from Deroche

    All these instances point in the same direction : the Codex Parisino-petropolitanus was transcribed from an older exemplar written in a more defective orthography that the five scribes were trying to improve while they were copying
    F. Déroche, Qurʾans of the Umayyads, a first overview, Léon Buskens & Petra M. Sijpesteijn (eds.) Leiden Studies in Islam and Society, volume 1, Brill : Leiden, 2013, p.32.

    Quote
    I don't have any opinion on this topic but, like I told you, any skeptic could well raise that assumption and then it is a matter of opinion rather than facts.


    It is fact : 643 : muhajirun and you say at that time there is no Quranic texts, right?  It seems to me improbable that this appellation was invented by a military scribe in Egypt to be taken later by Quranic scribe and put  later in the Quran like you say/said/ will say/would say, etc.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5912 - March 10, 2019, 06:01 PM

    Quote
    Gallez is more conservative that de Prémare was.


    Socio-politically? That is good. Another thing I like about it. Conservatism did arise in France, after all.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5913 - March 10, 2019, 06:07 PM

    Qu'arans of the Umayyads - A preliminary Overview
    François Deroche

    http://data.nur.nu/Kutub/English/Qurans-of-the-Umayyads-A-First-Overview_by-Deroche_Brill.pdf

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5914 - March 10, 2019, 06:29 PM

    1/ Nevo is an archaeologist.


    Deroche doesn't perform C14 analysis Smiley


    Quote
    2/Page? (yawn...)


    p 186 the section called Abrahamism

    Quote
    Déroche detail the C14 in one of his numerous courses . I do not remember a what date : the first year I think but...I'm not sure.


    As you are writing a book and this C14 data is one of your main assumption to backup your theory that the Arab invaders had some part of the Quranic text,with them in the 630's,  I was expecting something more precise.

    Quote
    https://www.college-de-france.fr/site/francois-deroche/course-2015-04-07-14h30.htm
    All these instances point in the same direction : the Codex Parisino-petropolitanus was transcribed from an older exemplar written in a more defective orthography that the five scribes were trying to improve while they were copying
    F. Déroche, Qurʾans of the Umayyads, a first overview, Léon Buskens & Petra M. Sijpesteijn (eds.) Leiden Studies in Islam and Society, volume 1, Brill : Leiden, 2013, p.32.


    Interesting but there are many things to bear in mind :

    - Quranic texts come from texts that have been circulating for centuries for most of them, in arabic or in other languages,
    - On this Codex, Deroche used to ascribe it a later date (early 8th century) ; he now revised it down to the end of the 7th ; this shows that it is a real issue to date any Quranic manuscript and one should not try & make assumptions based on this,
    - C14 dating of manuscripts isn't an exact science and is often coupled with paleography (e.g. the famous Birmingham folio)


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5915 - March 10, 2019, 06:43 PM

    Do you claim that there were no Jews in the Ḥijāz? Are there no sources documenting their presence? What about Medina?

    1/ Probably.
    2/ Nope as Mazuz say :
    There are no—and perhaps never were any—Jews or Christian sources documenting the history of the Ḥijāzī Jews. The Mishna along with the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds lack any detailed information on the lives of Arabian Jews, and provide little assistance in building a comprehensive profile of these communities.
    3/ There is no"Medina" my friend as described by the Sira. There is a Yatrib, of course, But no "prophet" in it , a normal oasis with few people.


    And what about the this statement, also from Mazuz:


    Quote
    Before discussing the meaning of Arabia (ערביא) in Rabbinic sources, one must address oneself to Roman Arabia, since it is likely that the Jews under Roman rule in the Land of Israel in Talmudic times were familiar with that term and, more or less, with the borders of the area that it denoted.

     

    Yes the peninsula as such does not exist in Late Antiquity. Nor the "Hijaz".
    Quote
    The term “Arabia” was originally used by Greek and Roman geographers; thus, it was probably borrowed by Jews, given that the Bible calls the land of the Arabs ʿArav (e.g., Is. 21:13; Jer. 25:23–24). The Biblical references to Arabia plainly refer to northern Arabia because they mention Dedan and Teima.


    Yes, northern. Not Mecca/Medina. But what that mean "northern"? Transjordan? Iraq?

    Quote
    In the early twentieth century, after Jaussen and Savignac’s Mission archéologique en Arabie, scholars assumed that the Ḥijāz was not part of Roman Arabia.

     

    Of course as they believe that the Muslim narratives was historical. It was not. (no plot here, bona fide, the  9th c. Muslims thought it was historical as they had no other explication about the existence of the Quran...)

    Quote
    Three decades later, this premise was challenged by Seyrig on the basis of his discoveries of Roman outposts on the road to Medina. Consequently, scholars almost completely abandoned Jaussen and Savignac’s view—with one exception—and research after Seyrig reinforced his stance.


    Nope, there is no Yatrib in Roman area, not even in the "road". Roman road? Surely not...
    Quote
    In view of this broad consensus, it would not be unreasonable to claim that Arabia in Rabbinic sources refers, inter alia, to the Ḥijāz as well.


    Lol. Ḥijāz was an unknown word until the end of the 7th c.

    Quote
    The consensus regarding the territory of Roman Arabia is crucial to the discussion about the information on the Jews of northern Arabia, mainly regarding those in Ḥegger/Ḥagrā, that emerges several times from Rabbinic sources.

     

    Hegra is in the Roman side until the 4th c. They goes at that time. And the city is abandoned before Islam.
    Quote
    Now that this matter has been clarified among scholars,

     

    Lol... nothing is really clarified...
    Quote
    the Rabbinic literature can teach us more about the Jews of northern Arabia than is known today.


    "northern"? Transjordan? Dumt al Jandal ? Iraq?
    But not of the Hijaz...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5916 - March 10, 2019, 06:59 PM

    Does īsh ḥamudōt mean “he who has come”?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5917 - March 10, 2019, 07:18 PM

    Quote
    There is no"Medina" my friend as described by the Sira. There is a Yatrib, of course, But no "prophet" in it , a normal oasis with few people.


    Of course. That is what I meant: Yathrib.

    Quote
    But what that mean "northern"? Transjordan? Iraq?


    Presumably so. Arabia Petraea, that is, which would encompass Transjordan and Iraq.

    Quote
    Of course as they believe that the Muslim narratives was historical. It was not. (no plot here, bona fide, the  9th c. Muslims thought it was historical as they had no other explication about the existence of the Quran...)


    The scholar in questions--Jaussen and Savignac--thought that Roman Arabia did not include Western Arabia. It seems that they were not bound by the narrative.

    Quote
    Nope, there is no Yatrib in Roman area, not even in the "road". Roman road? Surely not...


    I don't know.  Mazuz cites the research of Seyrig, which, according to him, discovered Roman outposts on the road to Yathrib or Madinah. Here is the reference: Henri Seyrig, “Antiquités syriennes”. In: Syria 22/3–4, pp. 218–270. Available: https://bit.ly/2SVz8AE. Please check it out.

    Quote
    Lol. Ḥijāz was an unknown word until the end of the 7th c.


    I am not challenging your position, but I think you are missing Mazuz's point here. When he concludes--based on the research he cited (see above and the actual paper)--that Arabia in Rabbinic sources refers to Ḥijāz as well, he is referring to the geographical area known as the Ḥijāz. The point is not the pre-Islamic attention of the word "Ḥijāz", but rather, the geographical that it represents, which existed before the word.

    Thanks, as always. Any references on Yathrib and its Jewish population or lack thereof?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5918 - March 10, 2019, 08:27 PM

    Does īsh ḥamudōt mean “he who has come”?


    Nope. The man praised : the one who is praised : muhammad.

    muhammad is therefore directly taken from Daniel.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5919 - March 10, 2019, 08:40 PM

    Gallez seems to think so, yes. But according to Lawson, Gallez thinks that Muhammad means “he who has come.”
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5920 - March 10, 2019, 09:02 PM

     Did Lawson read French and read carefully Gallez?
    For me Gallez is perfectly right here. The authors of the Quran are great readers of Daniel.
    As you speak/read Arabic, there is another thing that you (still) did not see in īsh ḥamudōt. Nobody has seen it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5921 - March 10, 2019, 09:09 PM

    So, as an Arabic speaker, I should be able to see it? Not sure. Can you give a clue?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5922 - March 10, 2019, 09:10 PM

    al-Maḥmūd?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5923 - March 10, 2019, 09:14 PM

    Of course. That is what I meant: Yathrib.

    Presumably so. Arabia Petraea, that is, which would encompass Transjordan and Iraq.

    The scholar in questions--Jaussen and Savignac--thought that Roman Arabia did not include Western Arabia. It seems that they were not bound by the narrative.


    At that time scholars considered the narrative as historical ; the narrative then bound them naturally.

    Quote
    I don't know.  Mazuz cites the research of Seyrig, which, according to him, discovered Roman outposts on the road to Yathrib or Madinah. Here is the reference: Henri Seyrig, “Antiquités syriennes”. In: Syria 22/3–4, pp. 218–270. Available: https://bit.ly/2SVz8AE. Please check it out.


    Cependant une petite série d'inscriptions atteste qu'une aile de méharistes, où servaient aussi des cavaliers, surveillait au II siècle la route de Médine.

    Yes.  Does not surprise me in the 2th c.

    I have outlined the word which have one way or another their equivalent English words which come from French words.
    serie of inscriptions attests that an aisle (French meaning)  where served also cavaliers suveyed the route of Medine.

    Quote
    I am not challenging your position, but I think you are missing Mazuz's point here. When he concludes--based on the research he cited (see above and the actual paper)--that Arabia in Rabbinic sources refers to Ḥijāz as well, he is referring to the geographical area known as the Ḥijāz. The point is not the pre-Islamic attention of the word "Ḥijāz", but rather, the geographical that it represents, which existed before the word.


    Yes. before the 4th c.

    Quote
    Thanks, as always. Any references on Yathrib and its Jewish population or lack thereof?



    The narratives to my knowledge ; you have Hoyland article. Like with Sebeos  he does not take side.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5924 - March 10, 2019, 09:18 PM

    al-Maḥmūd?


    Not related with ḥamudōt but with  īsh  :  first and last clue. Nobody has seen it, I think it is very hard to find. It was by chance for me, suddenly it appeared in my brain. I check in an article : I was right.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5925 - March 10, 2019, 09:33 PM

    Deroche doesn't perform C14 analysis Smiley


    Nothing to see with that, he just reports scientific work.


    Quote
    p 186 the section called Abrahamism


    Ok.

    Quote
    As you are writing a book and this C14 data is one of your main assumption to backup your theory that the Arab invaders had some part of the Quranic text,with them in the 630's,  I was expecting something more precise.


    It is not ; muhajirun is, the building in the Mount is. I think the some Quranic text could be earlier that the 7 th c. Grounded by the text itself which give hints to those who read it very carefully. Of course I can be wrong.

    Quote
    Interesting but there are many things to bear in mind :

    - Quranic texts come from texts that have been circulating for centuries for most of them, in arabic or in other languages,


    Texts that have been rearranged by the authors.

    Quote
    - On this Codex, Deroche used to ascribe it a later date (early 8th century) ; he now revised it down to the end of the 7th ; this shows that it is a real issue to date any Quranic manuscript and one should not try & make assumptions based on this,


    Yes. but the C14 give always more or less the same trend : 600/700

    Quote
    - C14 dating of manuscripts isn't an exact science and is often coupled with palaeography (e.g. the famous Birmingham folio)


    Quranic Palaeography is an issue itself, as one have nothing to compare in the longue durée with no date.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5926 - March 11, 2019, 08:32 AM

    C14:

    Why does Deroche cling to these later dates for the manuscripts? What argument is against a 630 date of the oldest manuscripts? If we take the C14 as it is, we could easily even argue for 600. But let's be conservative and make the argument AGAINST  630.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5927 - March 11, 2019, 08:36 AM

    Because (1) you could just as easily date the MS to the early eighth century - that is, later; and (2) more than half of the C14 datings are wrong.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5928 - March 11, 2019, 09:00 AM

    Quote
    more than half of the C14 datings are wrong


    Who says?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5929 - March 11, 2019, 09:02 AM

    Can't say. The paper will be publish soon, I think.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5930 - March 11, 2019, 09:17 AM

    Paper by whom?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5931 - March 11, 2019, 09:38 AM

    p 186 the section called Abrahamism


    Well... I understand now (?) from where you take your ideas.
    p 186 :
    Jubilees.
    Sozomen.
    Sebeos.
    John and the emir : p.223.
    They're all here : you (still) did not mention :  hanif.
    Nevo gather these and make his own stuff whereas it seems (to me...) much more complicated than that. Moreover to ground this he announces that Sebeos will ground his recipe next chapter (n.37)
    Like you, he takes texts as face value.
    Nevo is an archaeologist, not an historian. With these texts he does not know what is talking about. Moreover the Quran as such is not really studied in his book (who/when, etc)
    Islam is then build on this Abrahamism. (p.190)
    He constantly forget to mention (and one understands why...) that Abraham is a Christian figure as well; nothing surprising to see him in Nessana and Elusa.
    As you read only Nevo, it is clear that you will not see numerous informations which shows that he is wrong (at least that it is much more complicated) and you will continue to struggle until the end.
    Why? Because he is wrong.
    Get the Nessana thesis by Rachel Stroumsa (I already mention it here numerous times), I'm sure you did not read it. Why? Because you're afraid, it'd risk to take you away from you dear Nevo.
    Conclusion:
    Sebeos is taken at face value, John and the emir idem.
    Not a piece of critical source work here about those texts supposedly of 640. Lol.
    I will stop here the demolition (yawn)...
    Nevo is useful for many things not this.

    About C14: there are plenty of work in academia which reports the C14 results of the different manuscripts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5932 - March 11, 2019, 10:01 AM

    Everyone - What is your opinion of this assessment and summary:

    CULTURE : Les musulmans arabes sont-ils vraiment les descendants d’Ismaël ?
    ð La Bible (Genèse 25:12-18 ; Judith 2:23) nous dit que les descendants d’Ismaël se trouvaient en Assyrie (donc très loin de la Péninsule arabique). Et dans le Nouveau Testament (Ga 4:22-25), Ismaël représente spirituellement les Juifs qui ne veulent pas entrer dans la Nouvelle Alliance. Or, l’onomastique (l’étude des noms de personnes et de lieux) prouve que, pas plus que les Gaulois ou les Chinois, les Arabes avant le Coran ne se disaient « fils d’Abraham » ou « descendants d’Ismaël ». Mais comme le Coran (Sourate 33:4-5) ordonne que les fils adoptifs ne soient pas considérés comme de vrais fils et comme il fallait bien expliquer qu’Allah ait choisi, pour la première fois et contre la Bible, un « prophète » non-juif (Mahomet), il fallait nécessairement inventer ce lien du sang.

    ð Recension du livre de René Dagorn (École pratique des Hautes Études), « La Geste d’Ismaël d’après l’onomastique et la tradition arabes », Genève, Librairie Droz, 1981 – Préface de Maxime Rodinson. http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/rhr_0035-1423_1983_num_200_4_4440

    Le chapitre I, « Recherche d’une dimension historique », pose le problème. La tradition arabe veut que Muḥammad descende d’Ismaël, par 'Adnān et son fils Ma'aad. Mais elle n’affirme un lien de sang entre 'Adnān et Ismaël que depuis l’existence du Coran. Le chapitre II, « Les généalogistes arabes », est le plus important. Il est fondé sur trois ouvrages : Ibn al-Kalbī, « Jamharat al-nasab » ; al-Zubayrī, « Nasab Quraysh » ; Ibn Ḥazm, « Jamharat ansāb al-'Arab ». Après le dépouillement systématique et minutieux de ces recueils onomastiques totalisant quelque 100 000 noms propres, l’auteur aboutit, sur les patriarches bibliques et notamment sur Ismaël, à la constatation suivante : « Il n’existe aucune trace de l’utilisation de ces noms bibliques avant l’Islam dans l’onomastique. Par voie de conséquence, on peut en déduire que la société arabe n’avait, avant la prédication islamique, aucune conscience d’un rattachement quelconque à Abraham par Ismaël » (p. 44 ; cf. p. 49). En revanche, ce dernier nom est bien attesté dans l’épigraphie de la péninsule arabique. Pour résoudre la difficulté, les p. 100-104 déploient une argumentation qui pourrait être plus clairement présentée, mais n’en demeure pas moins convaincante. La voici. À supposer que le mot d’Ismaël, dans les inscriptions, renvoie consciemment au patriarche biblique, son emploi serait simplement dû à des juifs ou à des chrétiens (p. 103, cf. p. 45). Mais l’ensemble des Arabes continuaient à regarder ces deux groupes comme des éléments allogènes, et les noms bibliques sont absents de l’ancienne onomastique des Arabes parce que étrangers à leur conscience collective. Ce point est illustré par une citation d’Ibn al-Kalbī tout à fait révélatrice (p. 44). L’ensemble du chapitre est fermement étayé par les tableaux statistiques des p. 50 à 99. Le chapitre III confirme par un biais original les conclusions précédentes, réaffirmées avec force aux p. 123 et suivantes. Les Arabes étaient si peu enclins à s’attribuer Ismaël et Abraham pour ancêtres que la kunya « Abū Ismā'il »  [surnom « Père d’Ismaël » joint au nom], inconnue avant l’islam a été, même aux siècles musulmans, rarement jointe au nom « Ibrāhīm ».

    La deuxième partie essaie d’analyser, en quatre chapitres, l’émergence et l’évolution d’Ismaël dans la geste musulmane. Du pénétrant chapitre IV sur la révélation d’Ismaël dans le Coran, voir notamment les p. 132 et suivantes et 146 et suivantes. La suite de l’histoire n’est pas facile à reconstituer. Relevons une intéressante hypothèse. Il semble à l’auteur que les milieux shī'ites ont joué un très grand rôle dans le développement de la figure et de la légende d’Ismaël (p. 237-245 ; cf. p. 121 et 379-381).

    The full review can be read here: http://www.persee.fr/doc/rhr_0035-1423_1983_num_200_4_4440
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5933 - March 11, 2019, 10:32 AM

    Pre-Islamic Arab-Ismael link,

    Maghraye,

    Your author says that the Arab-Ismael link was invented to fit the Quran. But we read about 5th C Arabs and there is plenty of attestation that the link was alive and kicking at the time. Doesnt seem to be a very interesting work...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5934 - March 11, 2019, 10:32 AM

    Marc,

    Do you have a link to Nevo's work?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5935 - March 11, 2019, 10:49 AM

    Quote
    Your author says that the Arab-Ismael link was invented to fit the Quran. But we read about 5th C Arabs and there is plenty of attestation that the link was alive and kicking at the time. Doesnt seem to be a very interesting work...


    That is what puzzles me. Are they not aware of this or does not impact their explanation? Or are they saying that Arabs themselves were not aware of the link?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5936 - March 11, 2019, 10:52 AM

    Everyone - What is your opinion of this assessment and summary:


    My opinion is that it is an interesting work. Did you translate this paper? Deep L is your friend : https://www.deepl.com/translator

    "We must therefore renounce the idea that the Arabs believed themselves, before Islam, to be descendants of Ishmael, son of Abraham. If we base ourselves on the normal methods of history, we must also give up believing that they really came from it."

    1/It is true and it is inexact, depends of what Arabs (and from where) he is talking about : common Arabs surely not. Elites Arabs from Palestine and Iraq surely yes. Why? Because it was the discourse of Jews and Christians about them since ages, to link them with Abraham via Ishmael.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5937 - March 11, 2019, 10:56 AM

    Mag,

    The work you site is from 1983, pre- internet. Is it possible it was just more difficult to get a hand on different sources. The research has been done on the basis onomastics. And maybe there remains thus a point of interest here, why are there not more Arab pre-islamic references to Abraham/Ismael?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5938 - March 11, 2019, 11:00 AM

    My opinion is that it is an interesting work. Did you translate this paper? Deep L is your friend : https://www.deepl.com/translator


    I did translate it. Wanted your take on it because you had mentioned the issue before. You finding it interesting is interesting. I thought you would dismiss it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5939 - March 11, 2019, 11:07 AM

    "We must therefore renounce the idea that the Arabs believed themselves, before Islam, to be descendants of Ishmael, son of Abraham. If we base ourselves on the normal methods of history, we must also give up believing that they really came from it."
    Academia has some stuff on this, grab them.
    1/It is true and it is inexact, depends of what Arabs (and from where) he is talking about : common Arabs surely not. Elites Arabs from Palestine and Iraq surely yes. Why? Because it was the discourse of Jews and Christians about them since ages, to link them with Abraham via Ishmael.

    2/The authors of the Quran use this very known topos (Ishmael, presented more or less as the bringer in "Arabia" of the faith of his father and building the House with him) not by chance (hahaha!) Because the authors know well that Arabs to whom he addresses know very well the topos.
    Reflect now.

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