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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8730 - January 01, 2020, 07:57 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on January 01, 2020, 01:59 PM
    So dear zeca do you believe in  Ahmad Al-Jallad's Archaeological story of Arabic language from those rocks /rock inscriptions??


    I’ve no reason to think that Al-Jallad is wrong.
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8731 - January 01, 2020, 08:10 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on January 01, 2020, 02:29 PM
    I am thinking in terms of similar to that "Ancient Greek literature, Syriac literature, Latin literature, Indian literature, Ancient Hebrew writings, or that Avesta"., what I mean to say is., I question All folks and every Academic of Arabic literature  who thinks  "that  QURAN MANUSCRIPTS were the first Arabic scripts that were in written form and NOTHING WAS THERE BEFORE THAT..."


    Is anyone suggesting that there was nothing before quranic manuscripts? Going off other written languages of late antiquity you might expect that there would have been some translations of Christian texts, but in the absence of surviving evidence I don’t think there can be certainty one way or the other. I don’t see any reason to assume the existence of lost literary masterpieces though.
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8732 - January 01, 2020, 09:05 PM
    Quote
    I don’t see any reason to assume the existence of lost literary masterpieces though.


    Zeca,

    I agree here for the pre-Quranic time frame. But what is more mysterious to me is why there are no known (extant) literary Arabic works from 7th C , ? The conquerors were running an empire and the rulers seemed to be doing it in Arabic (see the Egyptian papyri). Why was the Arabic literary tradition so slow to pick up steam?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8733 - January 01, 2020, 10:00 PM
    Van Putten doesn't think there is any compelling evidence for a written ur-Quran, but he thinks it may have been an oral ur-text:


    "As a written text? I don't see any compelling evidence for that, no. There may have been an oral Ur-text, but I don't think that that is what we should be reconstructing in a critical edition of the text"

    https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1212490643366391808
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8734 - January 01, 2020, 10:11 PM
    MVP:

    "For the Hebrew Bible there is an assumption that these different traditions ultimately go back to a single written ur-text of some kind. I'm not sure we can assume that for the Quran. Sanaa 1 and the companion codices do not look like different branches of a written ur-Quran."

    https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1212489676587700224
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8735 - January 01, 2020, 11:17 PM
    Quote from: mundi on January 01, 2020, 07:33 PM
    Yes Altara, seems probable. But what was there? There must have been something. I suggest commercial notes at minimum. Do you have other ideas?


    The important is to not confound literature and commercial notes. So yes there have had commercial notes in the 512/568 proto Quranic script. But not literature.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8736 - January 01, 2020, 11:19 PM
    Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on January 01, 2020, 10:00 PM
    Van Putten doesn't think there is any compelling evidence for a written ur-Quran, but he thinks it may have been an oral ur-text:


    "As a written text? I don't see any compelling evidence for that, no. There may have been an oral Ur-text, but I don't think that that is what we should be reconstructing in a critical edition of the text"

    https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1212490643366391808


    Well, It could be interesting to ask him if an oral tradition is mandatory to complete the Quranic rasm with dots and vowels.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8737 - January 02, 2020, 12:00 PM
    Quote from: mundi on January 01, 2020, 09:05 PM
    Zeca,

    I agree here for the pre-Quranic time frame. But what is more mysterious to me is why there are no known (extant) literary Arabic works from 7th C , ? The conquerors were running an empire and the rulers seemed to be doing it in Arabic (see the Egyptian papyri). Why was the Arabic literary tradition so slow to pick up steam?


    Maybe it’s an indication that the conquerors were still a very small part of the populations that they controlled, That they were still more of an occupying army with hangers on than the start of a new civilisation. They were still ruling through officials using languages other than Arabic. Intellectual literary culture existed but probably most of it wasn’t going on in Arabic.
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8738 - January 02, 2020, 09:33 PM
    Interesting comment from Zeca.
    Just some thoughts:
    The occupants from the desert were probably very few, compared to all the people they conquered. They didn't try to convert people because they were more occupied with being in control and defeat the Romans and Persians. They had to cooperate with the local population and had to accept Christians and Jews as a part of their movement, to be in control. Few of them could read and write and they were  more interested in obtaining wealth and goods, than developing religion.
    Maybe the Quran was just known by a few clergy in the beginning (for instance, according to MVP the ones that wrote the inscriptions on the walls in The Dome of the Rock didn't have a Quran). Later, at the end of the 7th century, the need for a new religion increased, to function as a glue to keep the empire together and the Believers were so strong military, that they were able to throw Jews and Christians out of their community and introduce Arabic as the main language.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8739 - January 03, 2020, 12:25 AM
    Quote
    Maybe the Quran was just known by a few clergy in the beginning


    Not "clergy". Literati.

    Quote
    according to MVP the ones that wrote the inscriptions on the walls in The Dome of the Rock didn't have a Quran)


    What he means by "Quran"?

    Quote
    Later, at the end of the 7th century, the need for a new religion increased,Later, at the end of the 7th century, the need for a new religion increased, to function as a glue to keep the empire together and the Believers were so strong military, that they were able to throw Jews and Christians out of their community and introduce Arabic as the main language.


    Is it still MVP?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8740 - January 03, 2020, 06:46 AM
    Altara:
    [What he means by "Quran"?]

    I don't exactly know, but this is the twitter thread, where I found this:
    Orbi:

    "Dome of the Rock (685) is the first datable quranic verse (not completely verbatim) outside of Quran, no?

    Marijn van Putten:·
    Most of it is verbatim. One verse is a consolation of two very similar verses.

    Other later inscriptions have more significant deviations from the standard text.

    orbi:·

    The builders of dome of the Rock must have had a copy of Quran available. Apparently conflating 2 verses was no problem at the time.

    Marijn van Putten:
    There is really no reason to assume the people who made the inscription had access to a copy of the Quran.

    No evidence to the contrary either. We just don't know.

    Orbi:
    Would assume that bc dome of the Rock was such a high profile project. If Dome builders didnt have a copy, who did at the time? Jerusalem was the Mecca ( ) of religious life at the time...

    https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1143625780985024518
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8741 - January 03, 2020, 06:49 AM

    Is it still MVP?

    No this is not MVP.  Tom Holland, Jay Smith or something like that, maybe.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8742 - January 03, 2020, 09:12 AM
    Thanks Asbjoern.

    Quote
    There is really no reason to assume the people who made the inscription had access to a copy of the Quran. No evidence to the contrary either. We just don't know.


    That is the important point.

    Quote
    orbi:·

     Apparently conflating 2 verses was no problem at the time.


    Yes, they were not really aware of what was exactly those texts. All of this will be determined later and conflation of verses will disappeared.

    Quote
    No this is not MVP.  Tom Holland, Jay Smith or something like that, maybe.


    Ok. I think Holland does not still believe to the narrative or narratives declined of it (Believers, etc...). He is prudent, he has a career, he needs the support of the media.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8743 - January 03, 2020, 02:57 PM
    Quote from: Altara on January 03, 2020, 12:25 AM
    Not "clergy". Literati.


    that is an interesting point dear Altara ., I am not sure I will agree with that without any proof., well we are talking about 1st to 7th century. during those times.,

    How do you define a person as "Clergy" or a person as  Literati specially during those times?
    would it not possible that   "Clergy" could be also be a  Literati?
    or a Literati could also preach and acts like clergy?
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8744 - January 05, 2020, 01:23 AM
    One can be literati without being a clergyman. In that case, it means some who can read. But you have to remember that, at that time, religious stuff, stories etc., are a big part of the general ambiance in which people live, including educated people."clergyman" means man of the Church. I do not think that Arabs who started to build a House in the Temple mount in 637 were advised by men of the Church as for the Church this place was the sign that God has ending the alliance with the Jews and have started a new one with the all humanity with the coming of Jesus viewed as his Son, the Messiah, the Incarnation of God.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8745 - January 05, 2020, 12:14 PM
    Altara - do you think it’s possible or likely that these literati would have got their education through the church, or included former monks or clergy?
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8746 - January 05, 2020, 03:15 PM
    All education at that time was hold by the Church.But it was not necessary to be a "clergyman" to be educated. All educated people were educated by the Church by the means of Biblical stories, etc.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8747 - January 05, 2020, 03:25 PM
    Altara - you don’t see any alternative to these literati being church educated then?
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8748 - January 05, 2020, 04:01 PM
    I do not see, at that time, who could told to the military who controls Jerusalem to build something, apart what I call literati who follows Quranic texts, namely, Q 2:125-127.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8749 - January 05, 2020, 04:09 PM
    My question was more whether the literati being educated by the church is the only possibility (I don’t have any alternative suggestions though).
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8750 - January 05, 2020, 04:23 PM
    There is no education other than that of the Church at that time. Learn to read (even the proto Quranic script one sees in 512 and 568 which are placed in a Christian environment.) is the Church work. But write graffiti is not necessarily.
    The fact to build something in this place is also an indication of the knowledge of the Biblical world. Therefore the Church.They build there.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8751 - January 05, 2020, 04:29 PM
    Quote
    There is no education other than that of the Church at that time


    Thanks. It’s an important point and one which proponents of the traditional narrative seem to skip over. (As in ‘OK the Quran comes from Western Arabia but there was no organised Christianity there, so how did education and literacy in Arabic actually work then?’)
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8752 - January 05, 2020, 04:39 PM
    Quote
    It’s an important point and one which proponents of the traditional narrative seem to skip over.


    They have no answers ( about education in general and about the building in 637 in particular) giving by the narrative.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8753 - January 05, 2020, 04:55 PM
    Quote from: zeca on January 05, 2020, 04:29 PM
    Thanks. It’s an important point and one which proponents of the traditional narrative seem to skip over. (As in ‘OK the Quran comes from Western Arabia but there was no organised Christianity there, so how did education and literacy in Arabic actually work then?’)

    where in  western Arabia?  IS THAT NOT BIGGEST ASSUMPTION  OF ALL on Islam ?
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8754 - January 05, 2020, 05:04 PM
    Quote from: Altara on January 05, 2020, 04:23 PM
    There is no education other than that of the Church at that time. Learn to read (even the proto Quranic script one sees in 512 and 568 which are placed in a Christian environment.) is the Church work. But write graffiti is not necessarily.
    The fact to build something in this place is also an indication of the knowledge of the Biblical world. Therefore the Church.They build there.

    That is NOT necessarily true dear Altara ., these mini kings of that time ..



    forexample.....that  neo-syrian empire .... the education system being closely coupled to house of kings .. they could also act as centers of education. may be you call it as Private education ....

    Quote
    Ashurbanipal (685 – c. 627 BC), a king of the Neo-Assyrian Empire, was proud of his scribal education. His youthful scholarly pursuits included oil divination, mathematics, reading and writing as well as the usual horsemanship, hunting, chariotry, soldierliness, craftsmanship, and royal decorum. During his reign he collected cuneiform texts from all over Mesopotamia, and especially Babylonia, in the library in Nineveh, the first systematically organized library in the ancient Middle East,  which survives in part today.


    it is true for general public Church of that time was only the way..,,, Now could anyone get this high level  writing skills and able to  develop  Arabic script to write Quran .. A drama discussion between god and a preacher is debatable...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8755 - January 05, 2020, 09:31 PM
    Education and Chrurch

    We shouldn't forget the Jewish component of the Quran. How did the Jews organize their education? And the Sassanians?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8756 - January 05, 2020, 09:42 PM
    Presumably Jewish education would be connected to their own religious institutions. I’ve never seen anything about Zoroastrian education but I guess something similar would apply. Literacy would have been transmitted in the script and languages associated with the religion, though one question might be whether there was Jewish use of the Arabic script pre-Islam.
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8757 - January 05, 2020, 09:53 PM
    Quote from: mundi on January 05, 2020, 09:31 PM
    Education and Chrurch

    We shouldn't forget the Jewish component of the Quran. How did the Jews organize their education? And the Sassanians?

    well if there is any JEWISH COMPONENT in Quran., then it must be related to OT., which Church of that time and even now  accepts it as revelations of Christianity..

    but questions to you dear mundi

    what   Jewish component did you read in Quran that is NOT there in OT? can you give some examples??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8758 - January 05, 2020, 10:11 PM
    The best known example of the jewish late Antique influence is the famous 5:32 verse I guess. We find its parallel in the Talmud.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8759 - January 06, 2020, 11:49 AM
    Quote
    Presumably Jewish education would be connected to their own religious institutions. I’ve never seen anything about Zoroastrian education but I guess something similar would apply.


    Yes like Christianity.

    Quote
    though one question might be whether there was Jewish use of the Arabic script pre-Islam.


    Both Syriac Christians and Jews were acquainted of the Arabic script pre-Islam (512-568 inscriptions).There's no objective reason they shouldn't be.
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