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 Topic: What is an Agnostic Muslim?

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  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #120 - May 15, 2015, 09:58 PM
    Quote from: serpentofeden on May 15, 2015, 01:52 PM
    see you still have your skills set from your time as an islamic preacher in how you evade questions.


    And one more thing... ^WTF?? I was an "Islamic Preacher"?? Really?

    I always thought I was a school teacher at Islamia Primary School in London.

    But hey - you clearly know more about me than I do  grin12

    Oh and yes of course, I still have my "skills" - Taqiiya, lying, slippery evasion of questions... or let me see, Oh yes - I never evaded any question.

    It's also hilarious that you seem to think I am evasive or prevaricate since I hide nothing and answer any question and my story is painfully plastered all over this forum and blogs and internet in general - plus anyone can turn up at my door and talk to me face to face as I make no secret of where I live or anything about me.

    You on the other hand, well I can only glean from this forum. Let's see:

    1. You falsely accuse me of distracting from your question - which I didn't, because you didn't ask a question!! So that makes you a liar!

    2. You said: "I see you still have your skills set from your time as an islamic preacher in how you evade questions." which puts you in the paranoid delusional bigoted Geller, Spencer, Wilders category.

    3. I still remember you whinging about the poster who posted fascist racist & misogynistic crap getting banned.

    4. Most of your posts seem to be negative sneering, whinging and ad hominem at anyone - even secular liberal Muslims (and even Agnostic Muslims    - I guess unless we're all foaming at the mouth Ali Sina type haters then we're secretly Taqiyya Tacticians. Wink )

    So basically you are a lying, paranoid delusional, far-right sympathising, bigot who turns up here now and again to take pot shots and anyone you don't like - which seems to be most people here.

    Carry on  Afro
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #121 - May 16, 2015, 04:59 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on May 15, 2015, 07:33 PM
    btw if you thought I was suggesting you use the label Agnostic Muslim - nothing was further from my mind.


    Hey, no i wasn't thinking that  : )  I was just curious in finding my own label, if there ever was one after shedding my religious identity,  i'd never really given it much thought beyond "i'm a free thinker" which basically covers almost all labels anyway lol.  "Spiritual Humanist" sounds about right so far but i haven't yet looked into Qtians suggestions.   

    (sorry ignore my ramblings lol)
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #122 - May 16, 2015, 06:50 AM
    I just got this from the Church of Spiritual Humanism.

    Quote
    Thank you for coming to the Spiritual Humanism Church. All religions believe in God. Spiritual Humanism accepts the possible existence of God, but we reject being controlled by Lords and Kings. We are a civilized democratic religion. There is no room for barbaric pagan royalty in our religion. If you want to be worshiped, submit your paperwork, and we will vote on it at our next scheduled meeting.

     Cheesy

    http://www.spiritualhumanismchurch.com/
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #123 - May 16, 2015, 06:56 AM
    What?
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #124 - May 16, 2015, 07:04 AM
    There's another one that ends with .org. I guess there's a few. The above quote link (that ends in .com) seems to be some sort of christian humanism. Following on from the above quote:

    Quote
    This is a first-century Christian denomination (known as "Followers of the Way"), anchored in the teachings of the illiterate laborer Jesus prior to 70 C.E. All are welcome. Jesus accepted all, and so do we. This is an Online Church that encourages diversity without membership requirements. Services are updated weekly. If you are interested in being ordained as a Spiritualist Minister by the Spiritual Humanism Church (SHC), call 800 595-4053.


    Fuck, I should start a religion.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #125 - May 16, 2015, 07:18 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on May 16, 2015, 06:50 AM

    Thank you for coming to the Spiritual Humanism Church. All religions believe in God. Spiritual Humanism accepts the possible existence of God, but we reject being controlled by Lords and Kings. We are a civilized democratic religion. There is no room for barbaric pagan royalty in our religion. If you want to be worshiped, submit your paperwork, and we will vote on it at our next scheduled meeting.



    omg I read this and my first thought was "I know someone who would like to be worshiped....." Sent it to hubby with "saw this and thought of you", and he was like "I have to admit my ears did perk up."
    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #126 - May 16, 2015, 07:35 AM
    Waaait forget i mentioned "spiritual humanism" Quod lol.. I didnt realise that they had some loony church set up. Scrap that idea lol..  i meant to say is that i'm spiritual with a sprinkling of humanism..  geeze this labelling is hard work lol   

    : )   
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #127 - May 16, 2015, 09:00 AM
    "One of the things I like about Agnostic Muslim is that it pisses off Islamists and Muslim-hating bigots"

    Hassan,  I reach the same conclusion as yours, actually, now I have  a simple rule, if an idea , that both Anti-Muslim and Islamists hate, then this idea probably has some value Smiley
    I had a Palestinian christian colleague, and he held some very extreme anti-Muslim views ( he has his reasons that i understand),  he even told me that the  Quranist are a bunch of hypocrite who don't represent real  Islam !!!!

    "As HM has said already many Jews, Christians and even many Hundus are quite comfortable identifying as Jews, Christians, and Hindus while at the same time expressing Agnostic or Atheist views."

    do you know what, that's a fucking idea, why it is ok for others to identify with their religion, although, they don't hold any supernatural belief, and somehow for us from Muslim background,  it is not allowed.

    actually, i am just going to identify myself as a Muslim,  man, i am just going to confuse all my orthodox Muslim friends !!!!!!
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #128 - May 16, 2015, 09:44 AM
    Quote from: hatoush on May 16, 2015, 09:00 AM


    ..............."As HM has said already many Jews, Christians and even many Hundus are quite comfortable identifying as Jews, Christians, and Hindus while at the same time expressing Agnostic or Atheist views."  

    Hmm that is a good point hatoush.,  I am not sure but that may be living in  west .,  Well some hindus may also identify themselves as Muslims., Often in a  crowd  or on crowded bus of a big town where used to visit my maternal relatives  some of these hindus used to identify as Muslims folks..

    Quote
    do you know what, that's a fucking idea, why it is ok for others to identify with their religion, although, they don't hold any supernatural belief,. and somehow for us from Muslim background,  it is not allowed

    be careful  Agnostic do have that super duper unnatural hero saving them from the  misfortunes of this life.. You and they are going to miss the bus

    Quote
    actually, i am just going to identify myself as a Muslim,  man, i am just going to confuse all my orthodox Muslim friends !!!!!!  

    Well I am not sure about that, being a Muslim guy  why would you confuse them unless you start acting like  some salafi Muslim??

     I think you are too young to understand what Hassan is saying in this folder  hatoush ...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #129 - May 16, 2015, 10:04 AM
    "  I think you are too young to understand what Hassan is saying this this folder  hatoush "

     actually thank you for the compliment, but i am not as young, as you think, yes, i guess I have a different experience than Hassan, but strangely !!!, I totally understand where he is coming from, i like his ideas, I can identify with his views.  i fully understand him, when he says that he Likes the idea that maybe there is something out there !!!!

  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #130 - May 16, 2015, 10:17 AM
    Quote from: hatoush on May 16, 2015, 10:04 AM
    "  I think you are too young to understand what Hassan is saying this this folder  hatoush "

     actually thank you for the compliment, but i am not as young, as you think, yes, i guess I have a different experience than Hassan, but strangely !!!, I totally understand where he is coming from, i like his ideas, I can identify with his views.  i fully understand him, when he says that he Likes the idea that maybe there is something out there !!!!  

    Well I don't think so.,

    ...His ideas of " Agnosticism" is beyond any religious views  of his religion, his father's religion, his mother's religion and religion of his ancestors...

    ....He identifying himself as Agnostic Muslim   is because,   he worries about Muslim folks from  Heroes of  Christianity/Judaism/Hinduism/ Buddhism and what not and  he also worries about non-Muslim folks from Heroes of Islam   and  he wants to help  young Muslim folks  from salafi Islam who are some how drawn towards Salafi type of Islam  in these internet savoy  modern times.
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #131 - May 16, 2015, 10:48 AM
    Quote from: hatoush on May 16, 2015, 09:00 AM
    I have  a simple rule, if an idea , that both Anti-Muslim and Islamists hate, then this idea probably has some value Smiley

     

    Lol…  I have the same rule  Afro

    Quote from: hatoush on May 16, 2015, 09:00 AM
    why it is ok for others to identify with their religion, although, they don't hold any supernatural belief, and somehow for us from Muslim background,  it is not allowed.

     

    Precisely!

    And that's something I want to change Smiley
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #132 - May 16, 2015, 10:58 AM
    Quote from: allat on May 11, 2015, 07:11 PM
    My comments earlier were about specifically not using the Jewish example as a role model because Jews have been f*cked throughout history and, having studied various Jewish history a bit, and having a Jewish partner for the last 12 years has taught me that the identity of "Jewish" was imposed upon them by those who hated them. Then it was adopted by those who wanted power within Jewish communities and, after centuries of harassment and slaughter, it's become a matter that can hardly even be questioned since questioning it feels like a betrayal of all the people who suffered and died because bigots and hatemongers thought "Jews" were all the same and deserved to die.

    Glad I didn't (quite) miss this. VG. 9.5/10.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #133 - May 16, 2015, 07:03 PM
    Hassan you're such a nice guy, why do wankers seem to love needlessly attacking you for stupid nonsense?Huh???
    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #134 - May 16, 2015, 07:07 PM
    Aww thanks, CJ - that's kind of you.

    But I can be a stupid twat, believe me  grin12
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #135 - May 17, 2015, 11:27 AM
    Only when you "have in rum" as they say in Corn Island.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #136 - May 17, 2015, 12:44 PM
    Lol Smiley
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #137 - August 31, 2015, 05:46 PM
    Hassan, do you entertain pluralism? Are other forms of religion treated with the same level of agnosticism as you have treated Islam?
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #138 - August 31, 2015, 08:54 PM
    Yes & Yes.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #139 - August 31, 2015, 09:00 PM
    I'm hoping to make a video giving more details of what an "Agnostic Muslim" means to me. But for all intents and purposes I am fundamentally Agnostic with a Muslim background. I therefore express my spirituality through Islam - not because it's the one true religion - but because it is the tradition I familiar with.

    I believe it doesn't matter what religion or none you follow - it doesn't matter what race, nation, ethnicity, sexual orientation - or even if you support Arsenal. It's all good.

    I don't believe in Hell or paradise of judgment of any sort.

    That doesn't mean I completely reject the idea of some sort of existence after death. But the idea of heaven and hell presented in Qur'an, bible etc... are simply man-made myths.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #140 - August 31, 2015, 10:14 PM
    It's interesting that you answered yes to both of those questions. I've contemplated both questions quite a bit. In all sincerity and without dabbling in semantics, I am an atheist as it relates to the gods of most religions, particularly as it relates to a literal understanding of them. I don't believe in Zeus or Baal or Kali - not in a literal since. Nor do I believe in a literal Allah as described in the Quran. I chuck all of those deities down on the laa ilaha side of things.

    What I am agnostic about, again without dabbling into semantics, is any sort of greater "something" that would by necessity be beyond our realm of comprehension. I simply have no way of claiming to know one way or another. In fact, I'd accept the argument that all the deities listed above could have been mere attempts at understanding it, relative to the knowledge and culture of the respective people who conjured those gods up to begin with. This also goes for Muhammad's Allah. He may have tried to encapsulate the sense of transcendent awe needed to describe this "something," but as a limited human using limited human language, he necessarily failed. (Though he may have been close with certain descriptions and attributes.)

    Put in an Islamic framework, و لا يحيطون بشيءمن علمه إلابما شاء.

    I do think that if there is something greater, then we'd have to accept it would be far beyond our realm of comprehension. It would be greater than anything we could fathom or test. If we wanted to call it Allah, then quite literally, Allahu Akbar. It's the only way I'd be able to entertain the illa lah part of the formula.

    And of course, to me, it could all just be useless nonsense with no basis whatsoever. Grin
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #141 - August 31, 2015, 10:50 PM
    You've basically said my own thoughts, though I'd add if he/she/it/they do exist, there's no reason to think it even knows about us, or gives a shit if it does.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #142 - September 01, 2015, 12:35 AM
    Maybe I wasn't clear in my answer.

    I'm Agnostic about there being "something" ...call it God if you will.

    But I don't believe in any of the gods ANY of our present religions.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #143 - September 01, 2015, 12:36 AM
    Just posted this on my Facebook Timeline:

    Since I began identifying as an Agnostic Muslim many people have asked me why? And what is an Agnostic Muslim?

    Just to briefly recap on my story: I was born Muslim & practised as devoutly as I could for 50 years. Islam guided every aspect of my life. But towards the latter years I suffered a deep crisis of faith. My doubts and questions led me to reject Islam completely and I began to make videos critiquing aspects of Islam. I joined the Council of Ex-Muslims to support Maryam Namazie and others in breaking down the taboo surrounding leaving Islam. I also helped found the Council of Ex-Muslims online forum to provide a safe place for ex-Muslims & freethinkers to express themselves and find support.

    While I still support Maryam's work and stand by my previous videos, my own personal journey did not not stop there. Although I no longer believe in Islam in the traditional way, I don't feel completely comfortable with the label ex-Muslim either. Nor do I feel at ease identifying as an Atheist.

    I prefer the label Agnostic Muslim as it reflects my doubts as well as my Muslim heritage. I do believe in "something" - something beyond this material existence - something I can't define or quantify - you can call this "something" God if you want. Yet at the same time I believe it is impossible to either prove nor disprove its existence.

    I feel comfortable identifying as a Muslim. Not because I believe it is the one true religion but simply because it is the tradition I am familiar and comfortable with and my family, friends and loved ones are all Muslims. I enjoy participating in Islamic festivals, I find comfort in prayer & I still instinctively refer to verses of the Qur'an or hadith & draw on many parts of Islamic wisdom and culture despite the fact I reject other parts of it.

    However at the same time I don't believe the Qur'an is infallible. I believe the Qur'an is of human origin. I am happy to accept that Muhammad was inspired by God to utter the words of the Qur'an. I think we are all inspired and driven by whatever power/force drives this universe. This inspiration comes through our human mind and character. Muhammad expressed his inspiration according to his time, culture, and personality. He composed the words and phrased the sentences. As a result I believe that, while the Qur'an contains a great deal of wisdom, it is inextricably tied to its context and environment. Most important of all, it is fallible & must be subject to human reason, and not the other way around.

    I believe that although ultimate truth may well exist as regards metaphysical matters, from our human perspective such truth is relative. So I am not dogmatic nor insistent that my way is the only way. My faith is universalistic, inclusive, pluralistic and accepting of differences.
    If there is a God then he has clearly chosen to create a world where there is plenty of reasonable doubt about his existence and about religion and so I believe that the only thing that would be of concern to a Just & Merciful God would be our actions. How we live our lives. The choices we make. The good we do & the love we show. Not whether you believed in him - nor what religion - if any - you followed.
    I reject the traditional view of heaven and hell and judgment day. If there is some sort of reckoning - and such a thing is doubtful in my opinion - then it would be based on our actions not what religion we follow. It will surely take into account our flawed nature and the fact that our freewill is limited at best and largely determined by biology and environment.

    I not only reject the notion of Shari'ah Law - I reject the very idea of a "Perfect Divine Law for all times and all places" All laws are human laws and all forms of government are human forms of government. Flawed and very fallible. They always have been and always will be. All we can be expected to do is strive to make the best laws and governments we can with the tools we have.

    I strongly believe that if Muslims were able to recognise the "human" origin of the Qur'an it would solve a great deal of the problems we face, while at the same time allowing them to retain their faith as Muslims. In fact it is the belief in the infallibility of the Qur'an that is undermining the Qur'an and Islam. Because it forces us to either invent dishonest and laughable apologetics or compels us towards harsh literalist views.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #144 - September 01, 2015, 12:39 AM
    I posted this picture with it.
    Attached image is missing * AgnosticMuslim.jpg (1242.84 KB, 1044x1175 - viewed 493 times.)
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #145 - September 01, 2015, 12:39 AM
     grin12
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #146 - September 01, 2015, 12:40 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on September 01, 2015, 12:35 AM
    Maybe I wasn't clear in my answer.

    I'm Agnostic about there being "something" call it God.

    I don't believe in any of the gods ANY religion presents.


    Oh I know, and I know you've explained yourself ad nauseum. As it relates to Bogart's question, I was just pointing out that for what most people call "god," the word atheist works just fine for me.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #147 - September 01, 2015, 12:50 AM
    If anyone is on Facebook - please do give it thumbs up - not sure if that helps it circulate - but I think so lol   grin12

    https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1689390541295768&id=100006745147497&substory_index=0

     Afro
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #148 - September 01, 2015, 12:51 AM
    Quote from: happymurtad on September 01, 2015, 12:40 AM
    Oh I know, and I know you've explained yourself ad nauseum. As it relates to Bogart's question, I was just pointing out that for what most people call "god," the word atheist works just fine for me.


    Sure  Afro
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #149 - September 01, 2015, 12:54 AM
    How come you think Mo was divinely inspired? Also, are you at all concerned with accusations of copying christians?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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