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Theme Changer

 Topic: Submission to "God"

 (Read 3162 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Submission to "God"
     OP - May 02, 2015, 04:24 AM

    I'm pretty sure that somebody somewhere have said this already, but how is Islamic system different from Egyptian Pharaoh?

    --

    Pharaoh claimed to be God, therefore what he says must be followed 100%. God can't be wrong.

    --

    Now, Islam claims to have the word of God for people to follow. Interestingly, Islamic Scholars/Ulema have the rights to alter the interpretation, between "recommended, don't follow it, or follow it 100%". The ummah follow whatever scholars they want to follow, usually based on what sect they agree with.

    So what is the word of God really? Since God would not tell what he actually meant by the Quran, the clerics have to tell the meaning to you. With so many interpretations, nobody could know what God actually means, only the clerics know.

    Performing Islam and understanding Islam in a way that is different from the majority (like, Quranists/Ahmadis) is usually not appreciated. By not appreciated I mean they are given death threats regularly.

    Who's to say that they are wrong? Did God tell you that your scholar's interpretation is better than my scholar?

    No? Then why is your scholar more right about God's words? Why must anyone agree with your scholars?

    Who do they actually submit to? God or the Scholars? Is it submission to God, or submission to Scholars?

    --

    At the end of the day, you still submit to authoritative human figure. How is it different to submit to the Scholars than to submit to Pharaoh?
  • Submission to "God"
     Reply #1 - May 04, 2015, 03:30 PM

    "The ummah follow whatever scholars they want to follow, usually based on what sect they agree with" ,  there is no clergy in Islam, you fellow whatever make sense to you.  but as you said other Muslims may not share the same understanding of yours. and unfortunately will not tolerate different views.

    you know, scholars don't even agree on the basic, for example, even the definition of Islam is not agreed by everyone, if you take the quran alone, you have a concept, now add some hadith  and bingo you literally have a different religion.
  • Submission to "God"
     Reply #2 - May 04, 2015, 04:26 PM

    Reminds me of an old jewish quote. Ask two rabbis a question and you'll get three different answers.

    I would disagree there's no clergy. There's no organised clergy with a hierarchy, I grant you, but a religious leader is a cleric no matter which way you look at it.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Submission to "God"
     Reply #3 - May 04, 2015, 04:52 PM

    sure, but he has no "divine" authority,  it is up to the listener to decide what to do.
  • Submission to "God"
     Reply #4 - May 04, 2015, 04:58 PM

    if you take the quran alone, you have a concept


    Which is: "Worship me or I torture you! "

    I assume you are a Quranist, Hatoush?
  • Submission to "God"
     Reply #5 - May 04, 2015, 05:09 PM

    "Worship me or I torture you"   not really first you have to believe in him, if you sincerely tried but if you can't, God is merciful, "la youkalifou elah nafsan ila wisaaha"

    no, i am agnostic, (but i really wish to believe, but i can't),  regarding the Quranist , i think it is a very good step to have a more inclusive islam, medieval scholars have done enough harm.
     
  • Submission to "God"
     Reply #6 - May 04, 2015, 05:15 PM

    Are you claiming the Quran doesn't say anyone will be tortured?
  • Submission to "God"
     Reply #7 - May 04, 2015, 05:24 PM

    sure, but he has no "divine" authority,  it is up to the listener to decide what to do.

    You don't need to have divine authority to be among the clergy. A baptist minister or a zāhirī imam has as much claim to the word as the pope or the dalai lama.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Submission to "God"
     Reply #8 - May 05, 2015, 01:43 AM

    Are you claiming the Quran doesn't say anyone will be tortured?


    what I am claiming is; the Quran is a complex corpus, and you can read on it whatever you want.  but i think this is different way how to approach the text, one of them is this

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasr_Abu_Zayd#Humanistic_Hermeneutics_of_Islam

    ok, this video who have seen it already, I guess Smiley

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj3JrYLYCQ8
  • Submission to "God"
     Reply #9 - May 05, 2015, 03:50 AM

    "The ummah follow whatever scholars they want to follow, usually based on what sect they agree with" ,  there is no clergy in Islam, you fellow whatever make sense to you.  but as you said other Muslims may not share the same understanding of yours. and unfortunately will not tolerate different views.

    you know, scholars don't even agree on the basic, for example, even the definition of Islam is not agreed by everyone, if you take the quran alone, you have a concept, now add some hadith  and bingo you literally have a different religion.



    IMO That's ignoring reality.

    Question:
    "If you are a muslim who have different opinion about what Islam is, let's say you're a Quranist who think Hadith is forgery and shouldn't be included in Islam, are you free to say what you want and convert people without invoking the wrath of authority/scholars?"

    Islam doesn't exist in a vacuum. Hypothetically, yes you can just go and ignore scholars - do your own Islam. In reality, no it's not. I read Quranist website and all of their scholars are exiled. I mean like seriously without fleeing to the West they wouldn't even be alive. Maybe alive in jail, but then that would stop their sect from growing. One scholar was killed, too.

    Same with Ahmadi sect. It's caliphate isn't even in Pakistan - for a good reason  Cheesy

    What rights do they have to abolish Ahmadis as heretic? None. God definitely didn't tell them that, and they are supposed to submit to God, not anyone else.

    If Islam is as 'tolerant' as Christianity, there will be even more sects. I mean since modernism 3 new sects (Ahmadiyya, Quranists, Progressive Islam) appeared. If we look at history and the Mutazila, honestly if the clerics could kill they would.
  • Submission to "God"
     Reply #10 - May 05, 2015, 04:16 AM

    Helaine

    of course, the freedom of religion and thoughts is very restricted in most of the Muslim Countries,  that's a fact, i am not trying to picture you " Islam is peace " blalala, For God's sake, we can not even freely Talk about muawiyah, let alone theological matters.

     what I am simply claiming, there is no clear indication in the Quran, that you need to fellow an extra scholar, authority.
     

  • Submission to "God"
     Reply #11 - May 05, 2015, 10:59 AM

    ^I do think that as we generally progress we're going to see more and more people turning to Quranism.

    Yes, the Quran still contains a lot of terrible stuff and yes, I definitely don't want to hear the apologists for it, having once been one of them, but it's true that if you toss the hadith out the window, you're going to have much more room for a lenient interpretation of Islam. The Quran is like Islam in theory, but the hadith are non-negotiable, matter-of-fact incidents of reality that supposedly show the ideal practice. And we're in an age now where fewer and fewer people are ready to defend the cruelties and the general strangeness of the hadith, which are basically a collection of odd remedies, tales of rape and murder and slavery and abuse, and like a dozen hadith about what the Prophet used to urinate on or into.

    Will it be intellectually honest? Yes and no. Yes, a case can absolutely be made for Quranism if you and the person you're talking to both believe in Allah and that the Quran is divine. But outside of that bubble, no, it's not, like modern-day Christianity isn't. But that's the way it's going to go, and the way it has to go. Finding a way to dismiss the hadith and forget about them is going to be an incredibly popular move, especially for more and more Western-raised Muslims in the future. And that's a good thing, I think. Not the best thing (read: the thing I would like to see Grin), because the Quran is still pretty gross, but definitely a good thing, right?
  • Submission to "God"
     Reply #12 - May 05, 2015, 11:08 AM

    what I am claiming is; the Quran is a complex corpus...


    Fine, I have no problem with that.

    But you did say:

    "Worship me or I torture you"   not really first you have to believe in him, if you sincerely tried but if you can't, God is merciful, "la youkalifou elah nafsan ila wisaaha"


    Yet for those who disbelieve - horrible insane torture:

    "Boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads; which will melt what's in their bellies, and skins. For them will be hooked rods of iron Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, they shall be dragged back..." (22:19-23)

    "A Fire which will encompass them like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: they will cry out for help but will be granted scorching water like melted brass, that will scald their faces" (18:28-30)

    "Dragged through scalding fetid fluid and burnt in the Fire." (40: 70-72)

    "As often as their skins are roasted We shall exchange them for fresh skins" (4:56)

    "No food except pus" (69:36)

    The tree of Zaqqum Will be the food of the sinners. Like molten brass it will boil in their insides. Like the boiling of scalding water. (It will be said) "Seize him and drag him into the midst of the Blazing Fire! Then pour over his head the torment of Boiling Water" (44:43-48)

    "They will be given boiling water to drink so that it tears their bowels to pieces" (47:15)

    "Never will it be eased off them nor will they be reprieved" (3:88)

    Never will they get out. (5:37)

    Hell for all eternity (4:169)

    Complete corpus or not - who gives a shit - when you have insanely cruel sadistic bullshit like this!
  • Submission to "God"
     Reply #13 - May 05, 2015, 12:07 PM

    Hassan,

     of course there is plenty of terror, what i am saying, there is a case to be made that, with a  new Humanistic Hermeneutics, those theological dilemma can be solved, and i think Quran is flexible enough to propose a moral solution to  the problem of evil  and the problem of hell.

     my point is religion is here to stay, and Islam by no means is declining, personally i would prefer a new take on Islam, and i think it is possible.
  • Submission to "God"
     Reply #14 - May 05, 2015, 12:15 PM

    Actually I largely agree with you Hatoush, and I've been saying somewhat similar things  Smiley

    I just like to be contrary grin12
  • Submission to "God"
     Reply #15 - May 05, 2015, 08:33 PM

    Hassan,

     of course there is plenty of terror, what i am saying, there is a case to be made that, with a  new Humanistic Hermeneutics, those theological dilemma can be solved, and i think Quran is flexible enough to propose a moral solution to  the problem of evil  and the problem of hell.

     my point is religion is here to stay, and Islam by no means is declining, personally i would prefer a new take on Islam, and i think it is possible.


    I kind of disagree. I think Islam is in decline. The chauvinistic shows of piety a la Anjem Choudhary and these insane takfiri fanatic groups like ISIS and Boko Haram are Islam's last gasps as the crushing realization sinks in that as it currently exists orthodox Sunni Islam is not compatible with the modern world. I would wager that hundreds if not thousands of women more or less leave the faith every year due to the insane rules on out marriage, and the apostasy penalty that has so much support inside Islamic countries and within the Ulema is harder and harder to support as more ex-Muslims come out of the closet. Meanwhile the takfiri fanatics who run around killing aid workers and posting their decapitated heads on Twitter make Islam seem garish and brutal, pushing away people whose connection to it is tenuous and whose faith is weak. Orthodox Sunni Islam today is built around hero-worship of the character Muhammad the Prophet from the 8th and 9th century sira and hadith literature (a figure who IMO bears little resemblance to the actual apocalyptic prophet of the 7th century), a character who is cruel, warlike, and intolerant in the extreme. Islam throughout history is so much more than this, but if the faith wants to survive past the 21st century it will have to drop Muhammad the Rapist, Intolerant Warlord in the same way that the Catholic Church dropped the Inquisition (fun fact, it still exists, but its main function today is to publish a list of books Catholic should never read--a list which is in turn read by almost no-one Catholic or non-Catholic lol).

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Submission to "God"
     Reply #16 - May 05, 2015, 08:52 PM

    And I pretty much completely disagree with you. Grin

    I think that your average Muslim is really all about just going through their normal lives within the loose confines of what they consider to be Islam. At least from my vantage point, most are perfectly content, even prideful, about those things they consider to be “good” about their religion. They pay little attention to, or even completely disown, lots of the other stuff. Either they don’t know about it or they just don’t spend their time thinking about it.

    They don’t see Muhammad as the “rapist, intolerant warlord." To them, he is the “Prophet of Mercy.” He’s the one who, when the angels asked his permission to destroy the city of Ta’if after they pelted him out of the town with stones, said that he would rather see them spared so that their offspring might become believers. To them, he is the one who slaughtered a sheep and asked that its meat be distributed amongst his neighbors, starting with his Jewish neighbor. He is the one who said that paradise is at the feet of the mother, and that none of you truly believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself. He is the one that was patient through insults and abuse. He was, to them, shy, modest, and respectful. {And if you had been stern and hardhearted with them, they would have dispersed from around you.}

    For most Muslims, at least the ones that I knew, that is who Muhammad was. He was only “forced to fight” after being expelled from his city and threatened by the confederate tribes. And they have all sorts of other excuses regarding his “marriages” and battles.  

    Of course, there is an entirely different side to Muhammad, but it is not the side that is often taught. Except by lunatics like ISIS, Anjem, and the Wahhabis. For so many Muslilms, it’s almost like you are describing two entirely different personalities and indeed, two entirely different religions. Maybe it's different where you are.
  • Submission to "God"
     Reply #17 - May 05, 2015, 10:21 PM

    I agree with both of you  grin12 dance

    I think in the (very) long term Islam and religion as we know it is in decline - however we will be stuck with it for few generations yet and moving towards a more humanistic/flexible form of Islam is both useful and possible.

    I agree that ISIS forms of Islam is in it's last throws and grand stand finale. 
  • Submission to "God"
     Reply #18 - May 06, 2015, 06:16 AM

    And I pretty much completely disagree with you. Grin

    I think that your average Muslim is really all about just going through their normal lives within the loose confines of what they consider to be Islam. At least from my vantage point, most are perfectly content, even prideful, about those things they consider to be “good” about their religion. They pay little attention to, or even completely disown, lots of the other stuff. Either they don’t know about it or they just don’t spend their time thinking about it.

    They don’t see Muhammad as the “rapist, intolerant warlord." To them, he is the “Prophet of Mercy.” He’s the one who, when the angels asked his permission to destroy the city of Ta’if after they pelted him out of the town with stones, said that he would rather see them spared so that their offspring might become believers. To them, he is the one who slaughtered a sheep and asked that its meat be distributed amongst his neighbors, starting with his Jewish neighbor. He is the one who said that paradise is at the feet of the mother, and that none of you truly believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself. He is the one that was patient through insults and abuse. He was, to them, shy, modest, and respectful. {And if you had been stern and hardhearted with them, they would have dispersed from around you.}

    For most Muslims, at least the ones that I knew, that is who Muhammad was. He was only “forced to fight” after being expelled from his city and threatened by the confederate tribes. And they have all sorts of other excuses regarding his “marriages” and battles.  

    Of course, there is an entirely different side to Muhammad, but it is not the side that is often taught. Except by lunatics like ISIS, Anjem, and the Wahhabis. For so many Muslilms, it’s almost like you are describing two entirely different personalities and indeed, two entirely different religions. Maybe it's different where you are.



    i can confirm that's the majority of view, at least for an average Muslim, sometimes, i discuss those subject with my wife, and she genuinely can not understand, why i stopped to belief that the Quran is the word of God, she has this mental image of Muhammed as the perfect peaceful being, and when she saw the horror of ISIS, she simply says that's not real islam, and she really believe that.

    and honestly, i don't think that's a big issue, every society like to have an ideal narrative about their hero.

    in my personal view the biggest damage that orthodox Islam has inflected on the modern societies is the concept that somehow Muslim are special, and this absurd justifications that even if we are so underdeveloped in all aspects ( social, economical, cultural .... ) that's fine, because at the end of the day, we go to heaven and those infidel will perish in hell. and even worst if we want to develop we have to follow the previous "pious" Umma.

    unfortunately, many Muslim have the dogmatic concept of the world, and that's a tragedy in my view :(


  • Submission to "God"
     Reply #19 - May 07, 2015, 08:09 AM

    Helaine

    I remembered a famous saying by Ali bin Abu Talib , that " the Quran is mute, and it is people who speak about " ok sorry for the horrible translation Smiley, which is your point, at the end of day, just by the act of reading the book you are automatically creating new meaning based on your own background.

    for a background of this saying have a look here.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haruriyyah
  • Submission to "God"
     Reply #20 - May 07, 2015, 09:50 AM

    the biggest damage that orthodox Islam has inflected on the modern societies is the concept that somehow Muslim are special, and this absurd justifications that even if we are so underdeveloped in all aspects ( social, economical, cultural .... ) that's fine, because at the end of the day, we go to heaven and those infidel will perish in hell.

    This kind of nonsense is a race to the bottom.

    Self-righteous piety has been ruthlessly hunted in European Christian societies for two hundred years. Took a while to eliminate, but job almost done. Now for a baton change...
  • Submission to "God"
     Reply #21 - May 07, 2015, 11:42 AM

    Helaine

    I remembered a famous saying by Ali bin Abu Talib , that " the Quran is mute, and it is people who speak about " ok sorry for the horrible translation Smiley, which is your point, at the end of day, just by the act of reading the book you are automatically creating new meaning based on your own background.

    for a background of this saying have a look here.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haruriyyah

    What? did he say that?  did that son in-law say that?   that guy is a bad Ass..  well .."WAS BAD ASS". I guess that Rascal didn't follow the rules  and sayings of prophet ..

    Quote
    2.14.55

     Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu'n Nadr, the mawla of Abdullah ibn Ubaydullah, from Sulayman ibn Yasar from alMiqdad ibn al-Aswad that [[]Ali ibn Abi Talib told him to ask the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, what a man should do, who, when close to his wife, had a flow of prostatic fluid. Ali explained that the daughter of the Messenger of Allah,[/[] may Allah bless him and grant him peace, was living with him then and he was too shy to ask for himself. Al-Miqdad said, "I asked the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, about it, and he said, 'When you find that, wash your genitals with water and do wudu as for prayer.' "


    SO ALL OF YOU "wash your genitals with water and do wudu as for prayer.'".........   finmad finmad

    some fools wrote some  nonsense some 1000s of year ago ... idiots in 21st century consider every word of a silly book/s as word of god/allah... the doll..rubber doll..

    Mock Them and Move on....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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