Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Berlin car crasher
by zeca
Yesterday at 11:10 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
Yesterday at 07:30 AM

Do humans have needed kno...
December 20, 2024, 12:15 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
December 19, 2024, 10:26 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
December 17, 2024, 07:04 PM

News From Syria
December 15, 2024, 01:02 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
December 11, 2024, 01:25 PM

New Britain
December 08, 2024, 10:30 AM

Ashes to beads: South Kor...
December 03, 2024, 09:44 PM

Gaza assault
by zeca
November 27, 2024, 07:13 PM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
November 24, 2024, 06:05 PM

Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
November 19, 2024, 11:36 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: what we really know about early Islamic History ?

 (Read 19510 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 3 4« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #90 - May 12, 2015, 03:44 PM

    Zaotar

    i just read your paper, if i understood correctly,

    1-Muhammad movement originated in northern Arabia, in a sectarian milieu
    2- Muhammed and his movement immigrated to Medina.
    3- Mecca was conquered later.
    4- the Mecca narrative is a later development.

    i don't know i guess it is a daring hypothesis !!!!
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #91 - May 12, 2015, 04:09 PM

    Just read a comment that the first Shia state was in NW Africa. Might Islam have originated there?  .................

    Nope Islam did NOT come from African continent .,   As far as first Shia rule  in NW Africa is concerned you are talking about present Senegal  but that is not true ..  Fatimid Caliphate or so-called first Shia rule started in Egypt., It is in 10/11 th century Islam moved in to Senegal..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #92 - May 12, 2015, 04:09 PM

    I’m racking my brain right now trying to think through them all; are there any instances of Muhammad being directly referred to as “Ar-rasul” or “An-Nabi” in the Meccan suras?
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #93 - May 12, 2015, 04:18 PM

    Hmm, I might say it a bit differently.  I think the best hypothesis is that the Qur'an, and Islam generally, reflects a multiplicity of influences and sources that have been obscured by the orthodox Heilsgeschichte narratives.  Muhammad's movement was just one of those sources, and it may well have been based in Yathrib.  But (as with the conquests) Islam has written a history which presented all these developments as if they burst forth from the Arabian prophet, his revelations, and his followers, who conquered the region.  The much better explanation, I think, is to see a contested milieu of different groups and factions striving for legitimacy and power -- the prophet's legacy became a weapon in that milieu.

    You can see this most clearly in something like Surah 73, which begins with some of the most archaic Qur'anic text -- it seems to be a monk working at night, no less -- and then jumps into an interpolated bit of early apocalyptic, followed by the last verse which is basically much later jihadi propaganda that tries to comment on the much earlier text and make it accord with the ideals of the later movement.  I think this is a very good example of what Luling is getting at, one of the most obvious examples.

    So I think a great deal of work needs to be done on piecing out what has happened to such texts, not by trying to explain it through prophetic biography, but rather through analyzing factional and ideological shifts in the text (the hajj and qibla change in al-baqarah being a good example).  Until much better progress is made in that realm, the reality is that much of early Islamic history will remain little better than legends.

    To answer Happymurtad, that is a very good question.  Actually it is an important fact that the Meccan surahs virtually all refer to the 'rasul,' and he only becomes 'nabi' in the Medinan surahs, with a couple minor exceptions that appear to be interpolated.  This, again, surely reflects a factional shift, a move towards asserting the genealogical inheritance of the Arabs as a distinctive movement with its own Holy Book and Arab Prophet.  Traditionally, this is explained by saying Muhammad had risen to political power in Medina.  Far more likely, I believe, is that this shift reflects a nascent Arab monotheist community crafting and asserting its own identity in the early conquest milieu, when it had seized power.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=wHUsBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75&dq=rasul+nabi+meccan+medinan&source=bl&ots=9IazZT9Tyc&sig=CARW0FOVBKcrd31OaiUWABizPTA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hidSVfKcI871oATHzoC4Cw&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=rasul%20nabi%20meccan%20medinan&f=false
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #94 - May 12, 2015, 04:26 PM

    Quote
    Actually it is an important fact that the Meccan surahs virtually all refer to the 'rasul,' and he only becomes 'nabi' in the Medinan surahs, with a couple minor exceptions that appear to be interpolated.


    What are some instances where Muhammad is directly referred to as “rasul” in the Meccan surahs?
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #95 - May 12, 2015, 04:32 PM

    All the time!

    http://corpus.quran.com/search.jsp?q=messenger&s=1&page=5

    The thing with 'rasul' is that it is a relatively innocuous claim -- you are just repeating God's eternal message, just a warner.  Nabi, on the other hand, has a connotation of genealogy and political authority, not just repeating the eternal truth that other messengers had already given people.

  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #96 - May 12, 2015, 04:39 PM

    What are some instances where Muhammad is directly referred to as “rasul” in the Meccan surahs?


    I really like this paper, it show how using interpolation, Muhammed authority has evolved.

    https://iqsaweb.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/sandiego_keynote_an.pdf
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #97 - May 12, 2015, 04:54 PM

    That's a great paper Hatoush, and Neuwirth is surely the most prominent 'traditional' Orientalist scholar today.  In that address, she is making a fierce appeal for the relevance of her approach, despite the fact that most scholars are moving away from it.  But in many respects, I think what has happened is that Neuwirth (and her colleagues, Sinai and Marx, the Corpus Coranicum crowd) have essentially capitulated to the revisionist position by interposing a new background entity:  The community.  Because so many aspects of the Qur'an cannot be explained as prophetic revelation, they now try to explain its composition as a dialogue between the prophet and his community, a mutually-composed text.  This allows them to retain the traditional understanding, while talking much more broadly about the Qur'an as if it was a multi-authorial work, which of course it is.

    It's interesting she cites Q 73:1-10, because that was my point earlier -- this is very clearly one of the most archaic textual layers.  "Thus, in these early qur’anic texts, the term qurʾān would denote a biblically inspired genre of liturgical texts apt for recitation in the Arabic language–a sort of Arabic psalms."  Actually, if I may venture a hypothesis, Q 73:1-10 strikes me as the kind of thing an Arabophone monk might have composed.  The reference to being 'enshrouded' seems like it refers to a monk's habit, the nocturnal vigil is very much a monkish thing, and much of the language of 73:1-10 appears (to my mind) to suggest a monkish context.  I have been thinking about analyzing that subject in more detail.

    I will say that her postulate of a shift 'away' from Mecca and the Ka'aba towards Jerusalem strikes me as bogus.  Where is that shift in the Qur'an, akin to the shift cited in Surat al Baqarah?  She's just making that part up because of her presumption that the earliest surahs were sort of provincial Meccan texts.  Yet again, this shows what a trainwreck the postulated Meccan background is.

    Btw, if you haven't read it yet, you should read Rippin's response to that Neuwirth address:

    https://iqsaweb.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/sandiego_response_ar2.pdf
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #98 - May 12, 2015, 04:57 PM

    Looking at it, it seems as though Muhammad (or, the one "receiving" the Quran) is referred to directly as a “rasul” almost exclusively in the madani surahs. The overwhelming usage of “rasul” to refer to the one receiving the Qur’an seems to be almost entirely in the madani chapters, whereas in the makkan chapters, the term is used primarily to refer to previous messengers or to angels.

    Looking at the link you provided seems to prove this, unless I’m missing something.


    The reason I thought of this is because it almost seems as though the author of the madani surahs is deliberately using the term now to refer to himself, perhaps in a bid for legitimacy.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #99 - May 12, 2015, 05:09 PM

    There is such a clear shift HM.  I think what the process looks like, if you ask me, is an Arabophone community striving to produce a holy book of its own, probably because it was not accepted by the orthodox Christian and Jewish communities (or did not accept them).  To do this, it looks as if bits and pieces of older Arabic-language Christian texts were sifted through, sliced apart, and then readapted into generic 'messages' that were attributed to the prophet, a competing Holy Book that legitimates the Arabs alongside these other peoples.  Over time, you see a shift from the anonymous and fragmentary earliest texts to a generic 'messenger/rasul' stage, then to a more clear contemporary Arab messenger, then to a specific nabi who leads the community.  In the first levels, continuity and anonymity of the messenger (rasul) are strictly maintained, to the point where it's often very unclear who or what the messenger is.  In the last levels, the prophet's special and distinctive nature are emphasized, even to the point of his finally being given what looks like an actual name, Muhammad.  At this final point he is no longer a generic messenger like the others that came before, repeating the same messages, he is now the seal of the prophets, named Muhammad, with the distinctive and supreme Holy Book, the Qur'an, and with a qibla shifted towards Mecca in the Hijaz, with an allegedly 'ancient' pilgrimage now directed away from Jerusalem.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #100 - May 12, 2015, 05:30 PM

    Btw, there's going to be a book coming out in 2017 about these subjects from Segovia and Dye.

    https://www.academia.edu/7050551/Re-Imagining_Islam_in_the_Late_7th_Century_with_Guillaume_Dye_2017_Upcoming_Book

    We are still at the dawn of applying genuinely critical analysis to all these questions.  Which is why the field is so interesting.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #101 - May 12, 2015, 05:39 PM

    Quote
    Arabophone


    Who are these?


    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #102 - May 12, 2015, 05:54 PM

    Arabic-speaking, in the sense of primarily Arabic-speaking.
  • Re: what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #103 - May 12, 2015, 05:55 PM

    The change of qibla seems to have been something that took decades to fully implement across the Islamic world; almost certainly it did not occur at one time by prophetic fiat.  I recall that Zimriel knows a great deal about this.  You can trace the changing qiblas in the earliest mosques, which are very interesting -- the earliest mosque quiblas all point to the Nabatean region and southern Palestine, and then they begin shifting at a certain point to directing their qiblas towards Mecca.  IMO, this is a pretty good way of figuring out when the qibla change was implemented, and how, although we surely have to assume a doctrinal/sectarian change preceded its implementation in mosque architecture.  Personally, I'd suggest that the doctrinal/sectarian change took place by around 650/660 (likely when the main Qur'anic compilation itself was completed IMO), but took quite a few decades to really implement effectively throughout nascent Islam.  It's misleading to think of it as a sudden shift, it was probably more a contested process (which Surat al Baqarah is pretty clear on!  It's quite forthright about how people were calling bullshit on the qibla change.)


    This wiki page puts the second Fitna at 680-692
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Fitna
     I think you made Huh? the point earlier that this might have been the time were the change in qibla began,after the victory of the Ummayad caliphate.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #104 - May 12, 2015, 06:02 PM

    I think your point was,if Im not wrong, that Abdelmalik would unite the factions by adopting local tradition, and the new qibla was part of this attempt,as ibn Zubayrs caliphate had its seat in Mecca by the end of the Second Fitna.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mecca_%28692%29
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #105 - May 12, 2015, 06:13 PM

    My guess is a bit different ... I think there were a variety of competing factions, and what you see historically is the selection, combining, and privileging of the ideology from those factions.  The Zubayrids were the first historical state that seems to have been big 'Muhammadan' supporters, and also the first who seem to have pushed Mecca as their base of operations.  When they were crushed by Abd al Malik, in the process of creating the first real Arab state, he seems to have declared himself the legitimate successor to that Hijazi ideology and movement.  But, I think, it was not by inventing and propounding his own ideology -- it was more selectively appropriating and promulgating elements of existing ideologies.  The problem with ibn al-Zubayr is that he was the *false* caliph, and Abd al Malik was the *true* caliph.

    This is why I say we have to distinguish the early genesis of Meccan ideology from its complicated political and religious promulgation by later 'Arab' states.  I do not think Abd al Malik invented the changed qiblah, but I think he forcefully promoted it; he was the hammer that consolidated and imposed what had finally become recognizable Islam.

    [Edit ... I think maybe you edited your post, yes I'd agree with that statement]
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #106 - May 12, 2015, 06:21 PM

    I think you disagreed with the first post and agreed with the second, in other words that it was about appropriation than invention.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #107 - May 12, 2015, 06:35 PM

    Yep that's right.    Wink
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #108 - May 13, 2015, 04:44 PM

    Btw, Dye's new article makes the same point I had made above about Q 73 ... it looks quite like a monastic composition, as does Q 74.  Here's what Dye says about the author of Q 19:

    "It is highly unlikely, to say the least, that a scribe corresponding to such a profile could have belonged to the Meccan or Medinan circle of Muhammad – or more generally to the Ḥiǧāz, except if we are ready to imagine Mecca or Medina as an Arabic Edessa, Antioch, or Jerusalem. The most likely explanation is that this author should be situated elsewhere than the Ḥiǧāz – most probably, indeed, not too far from Jerusalem, since he was extremely familiar with the Hagiopolite liturgy. Besides, such a skillful text requires various specific competencies, and we should wonder how they could have been acquired. The obvious explanation is that our author belongs to the class of the religious literati. In other words, he was certainly a Christian monk who “converted” to the new faith or put his pen at the service of the newcomers – certainly, therefore, after the conquests."
  • Previous page 1 2 3 4« Previous thread | Next thread »