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Theme Changer

 Topic: Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding

 (Read 21284 times)
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  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #30 - May 14, 2015, 07:50 PM

    There may be firmer evidence buried deep within the sands of Arabia. And hopefully that evidence will stay buried until the Arabs are enlightened enough to look at it with an objective eye. But if that is the case then it will be long after all of us have died.


    As someone of Arab heritage I find that quite offensive, Tony.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #31 - May 14, 2015, 07:55 PM

    Ok, so I assume you disagree. So you think that if such a piece of evidence was found then there would be no effort to cover it up?
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #32 - May 14, 2015, 07:57 PM

    I usually try to have patience with you Tony - but I'm all out of patience today.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #33 - May 14, 2015, 08:00 PM

    You have lost me Hassan. I can only assume that your answer is that you do not believe there would be any effort to cover it up. In which case I am skeptical.

    For all we know such a piece of evidence may have already been found. More than once.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #34 - May 14, 2015, 08:07 PM

    Maybe I can help out a bit here. Tonyt, you said, “Hopefully that evidence will stay buried until the Arabs are enlightened enough to look at it with an objective eye. But if that is the case then it will be long after all of us have died.

    Apart from the bold, I’m honestly struggling to put that in a way that would emphasize its offensiveness to Arabs any further.  

    And a bit of personal feedback, random internet guy to random internet guy, this is not exactly the first time that comments of yours have come across as gross and sweeping generalizations putting down an entire people. Whether that is your intent or not is beside the point. It has certainly been the perception.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #35 - May 14, 2015, 08:23 PM

    I am sorry, I did not realize that it was offensive in the slightest. I thought it was fairly obvious that I was referring to Arab society and governments in the Middle East, and not all Arabs as a race.

    If i had changed it to the following:

    "Hopefully that evidence will stay buried until the "Arab society and governments in the Middle East" are enlightened enough to look at it with an objective eye. But if that is the case then it will be long after all of us have died."

    Would it still be offensive?

    I am not trolling here. I genuinely want to know if it is the way I wrote it that was offensive or my actual meaning. And I genuinely am sorry for sounding offensive.

    Quote
    And a bit of personal feedback, random internet guy to random internet guy, this is not exactly the first time that comments of yours have come across as gross and sweeping generalizations putting down an entire people.


    Can you remember a specific time where I made a sweeping generalization? Are we referring to the immigration debate we had? I do not remember making a sweeping generalization there.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #36 - May 14, 2015, 08:36 PM

    I chose my words carefully. I didn’t say that you did. I said that your words came across that way. Perception is everything. And interpretation of your intentions when discussing topics like race and religion can be tricky when terms like "the Arabs" and "Muslims" are used. (Especially when the writer has no affinity to either group.) But yes, I am specifically thinking of the immigration debate.

    And at least from my vantage point, changing “the Arabs” and referring specifically to who you are talking about – the governments, certain religious establishments, Muslims who are interested in maintaining the traditional narrative, etc. – certainly helps.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #37 - May 14, 2015, 08:43 PM

    You are right HM. I probably do need to be more careful when choosing my words.

    And I do appreciate the feedback.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #38 - May 14, 2015, 08:49 PM

     Smiley
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #39 - May 14, 2015, 09:02 PM

    Tonyt - My thought on this was that if you specified the Saudi government and religious establishment that would be nearer the mark, though in fact there is Saudi support for some archaeology so it's probably not that simple. I'm not aware of other Arab governments being particularly hostile to archaeology, unless you count Islamic State, but I could be missing something.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #40 - May 14, 2015, 09:27 PM

    Lol, well ISIS are the extreme example. I am not aware of that much work being done on 7th Century period in the region, but that could be just my own ignorance. Does anyone know much about what the Yemeni government did with the Saana'a Manuscript? There was some allegations that they have covered up some of the evidence. I think that is what Gerd Puin originally hinted at. I have heard that those allegations have been debunked and the Yemeni government has actually been transparent about it. But how can we be sure?  I mean how do we know they are being transparent about the whole thing and not just the parts that are not so controversial?
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #41 - May 14, 2015, 09:41 PM

    I don't know what the current situation is with the Sana'a manuscripts, beyond a brief mention in this article from 1999:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/past/issues/99jan/koran.htm
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #42 - May 14, 2015, 09:59 PM

    I had an interesting discussion about it in the comments section of the Amazon review to Patricia Crone's "Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam":

    Here is the relevant part of my review of Crone's book:

    To which someone called "Timothy" replied:

    To which I responded:

    http://www.amazon.com/review/R3FI9FT4HO4Y01/ref=cm_cr_dp_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=1593331029&channel=detail-glance&nodeID=283155&store=books#wasThisHelpful

    I did not hear back after that. But what is interesting is that Mecca appears to have become an important trading city (following the traditional narrative) at around the time that the Egyptian port of Berenice was abandoned on the other side of the Red Sea. Almost as if it was able to assume the role in trade that Berenice had earlier played. Which would explain why it was never mentioned before that time, and why it suddenly became so important....

    As regards Timothy's comments about prevailing winds, I've no idea whether what he says about them is accurate but his argument presupposes trade on sailing ships rather than galleys. The Ottomans for example used galleys for the spice trade in the Red Sea. See this article by Giancarlo Casale:

    The Ottoman Administration of the Spice Trade in the Sixteenth Century Red Sea and Persian Gulf

    Edit: more on merchant galleys (page 117 onwards): https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=DoOt2U78JnYC&pg=PA102&lpg=PA102&dq=galley+dromon&source=bl&ots=MZv0j1X3sc&sig=BP3k7naCfFEHS6XqTPf0s2uhoVQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WSlVVZaeNKLP7gam04CQAg&ved=0CCcQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=galley%20dromon&f=false
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #43 - May 14, 2015, 10:53 PM

    I don't know what the current situation is with the Sana'a manuscripts, beyond a brief mention in this article from 1999:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/past/issues/99jan/koran.htm


    There was a fierce rebuttal by Sadeghi in his article on the manuscript. 

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/110978941/Sanaa-1-and-the-Origins-of-the-Qur-An#scribd

    IMO, the truth probably lies in-between, I think that Atlantic article overstated the problem, and Sadeghi understates it.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #44 - May 15, 2015, 12:27 AM

    Is this more of a disconnect between people who are from a muslim background and people who aren't?


    I do think this is a lot of what you are observing, CJ. I wouldn't call it a disconnect, necessarily, but certainly the focus of the forum is Islam as it impacts people today and as it relates to our personal experiences as ex-Muslims. Getting into intense discussions about the history of Islam from a modern perspective can be interesting to some members but perhaps not to others, or parts may draw certain members to join the discussion while other parts wouldn't, and although it was a very fortunate thing indeed that brought zeca and zaotar and zimriel to the forum to provide such fantastic discussions on the subject, the vast majority of people who visit the forum aren't coming here for that and probably wouldn't have even thought to come here for those discussions.

    It doesn't really mean that the rest of us wouldn't be able to look at it from this perspective or that we prefer one way of analyzing Islam over another, though, and of course some members are very interested in the threads even if they do not personally contribute. And, as Hassan said, this place can gladly accommodate both, and every thoughtful discussion period enriches this forum and increases what it has to offer its members. So to zaotar et al., keep up the good work. yes
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #45 - May 15, 2015, 12:48 AM

    Well said as always, lua.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #46 - May 15, 2015, 12:56 AM

    Thanks! Smiley
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #47 - May 15, 2015, 01:14 AM

    As regards Timothy's comments about prevailing winds, I've no idea whether what he says about them is accurate but his argument presupposes trade on sailing ships rather than galleys. The Ottomans for example used galleys for the spice trade in the Red Sea


    I dont think it presupposes that. Even Galleys have sails, the purpose of the rowers is to power the ship only when the winds are not favourable. And rowing into a monsoon wind cannot be easy. That the Ottomans were able to use galleys for Red Sea trade speaks more to their power in terms of demographics, wealth, and technology in the 17th century that what was neccesarily possible during Late Antiquity on the fringes of the crumbling Roman Empire. It may be that at that time it simply made sense to switch to a land route at the 22nd parallel whether they were using galleys or sailboats. I haven't read your link yet,  does it describe the major ports and routes that they used? And whether they made use of monsoons?
  • Re: Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #48 - May 15, 2015, 01:30 AM

    And as for the archaeology, I assume you are referring to a mosque that was found in Israel where the Qibla is facing towards Jerusalem, big deal, that is hardly going to shake the foundations of the traditional narrative.
     

    Not sure its only one mosque which is facing Jerusalem(if not including those mosques with Petra as qiblah).
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #49 - May 15, 2015, 01:35 AM

    Is there a list of the earliest mosques and which direction they're facing?Which is the earliest mosque facing Mecca?That might actually tell us how(atleast partly) accurate the traditional view is.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #50 - May 15, 2015, 03:31 AM

    "such fantastic discussions on the subject, the vast majority of people who visit the forum aren't coming here for that and probably wouldn't have even thought to come here for those discussions"

    hihi, maybe i am the exception, i come here because of those discussion.

    but i find it very sad, that in order to discuss Islamic history in a non dogmatic fashion, you have to go to an ex Muslim forum :( 
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #51 - May 15, 2015, 03:47 AM

    "Hatoush I was saying that's *not* the correct way to interpret it, that we *shouldn't* look at it through the eyes of an illiterate prophet isolated from the world, giving mystical proclamations in the desert.  This brings up a key issue: The Islamic tradition has a very complex (to say the least!!!)"

    sorry i misunderstood you, my apology.  and thanks for your long response, it is much appreciated.

    let's forget the quran, let's speak about muhammed, if we assume he is was not from Quraich and mecca, so all this stories about fatima, ali , the civil war are all fabrication,  i find this very hard to believe.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #52 - May 15, 2015, 04:05 AM

    hihi, maybe i am the exception, i come here because of those discussion.


    Yes, I believe you're in the minority, at least. Above everything else, this forum is a safe space for ex-Muslims to seek support and for them and others to discuss ex-Muslim issues, and of course it is usually treated as such. I think most people who are not interested in what the forum has to offer aside from these topics would generally use other venues to learn about and critically discuss the history of Islam, but our three contributors to the subject are awfully good, so I'm not surprised that there's an exception. Grin
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #53 - May 15, 2015, 04:09 AM

    I do think this is a lot of what you are observing, CJ. I wouldn't call it a disconnect, necessarily, but certainly the focus of the forum is Islam as it impacts people today and as it relates to our personal experiences as ex-Muslims. Getting into intense discussions about the history of Islam from a modern perspective can be interesting to some members but perhaps not to others, or parts may draw certain members to join the discussion while other parts wouldn't, and although it was a very fortunate thing indeed that brought zeca and zaotar and zimriel to the forum to provide such fantastic discussions on the subject, the vast majority of people who visit the forum aren't coming here for that and probably wouldn't have even thought to come here for those discussions.

    It doesn't really mean that the rest of us wouldn't be able to look at it from this perspective or that we prefer one way of analyzing Islam over another, though, and of course some members are very interested in the threads even if they do not personally contribute. And, as Hassan said, this place can gladly accommodate both, and every thoughtful discussion period enriches this forum and increases what it has to offer its members. So to zaotar et al., keep up the good work. yes


    ^This is what I would have said if I had been able to organise and articulate my thoughts as well as Lua,  may Allah be pleased with her.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #54 - May 15, 2015, 04:16 AM

    but i find it very sad, that in order to discuss Islamic history in a non dogmatic fashion, you have to go to an ex Muslim forum :( 


    Yes indeed,  it's a rather sad indictment. Nevertheless I'm extremely glad we have you here, as well as the trinity of Z's Smiley
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #55 - May 15, 2015, 04:25 AM

    but i find it very sad, that in order to discuss Islamic history in a non dogmatic fashion, you have to go to an ex Muslim forum :(  


    Actually, didn't you say you're in a Western country now? If it's within your means, you should consider taking university courses on Islamic history, particularly from universities which offer Islamic Studies certificates or something similar. The majority of the courses I took on this subject were from a strictly non-religious perspective, usually starting off pretty far back in pre-Islamic Arabia with discussions on how the climate and the events of the time influenced the religion as it progressed. You might enjoy some of the classes if you have the opportunity.

    It may not be the easiest thing in the world to find people interested in discussing it outside of an academic setting, however, but I don't think it's all really the taboo of the religion's fault. I just think there aren't tons and tons of knowledgeable enthusiasts of Islamic history just chatting it up on the internet, and you'd probably be looking for professors and historians and researchers and what have ya.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #56 - May 15, 2015, 04:29 AM

    ^This is what I would have said if I had been able to organise and articulate my thoughts as well as Lua,  may Allah be pleased with her.


    Aw, thanks. He's not, but I'm a happy camper as long as you are. Grin
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #57 - May 15, 2015, 05:50 AM

    Actually, didn't you say you're in a Western country now? If it's within your means, you should consider taking university courses on Islamic history, particularly from universities which offer Islamic Studies certificates or something similar. The majority of the courses I took on this subject were from a strictly non-religious perspective, usually starting off pretty far back in pre-Islamic Arabia with discussions on how the climate and the events of the time influenced the religion as it progressed. You might enjoy some of the classes if you have the opportunity.

    It may not be the easiest thing in the world to find people interested in discussing it outside of an academic setting, however, but I don't think it's all really the taboo of the religion's fault. I just think there aren't tons and tons of knowledgeable enthusiasts of Islamic history just chatting it up on the internet, and you'd probably be looking for professors and historians and researchers and what have ya.


    actually, I am at the "post ex-Muslim" stage, the reason, i got sucked into this subject, I wanted just to have a new narrative, even when I was an Orthodox Muslim, I always believed that the Quran did not come from ex nihilo , I always knew this is not how religion and sacred text emerge.

    I worked once in Iraq, and Shia Iraqi liked to discuss with me, as for them, I was an open minded Sunni, and  this experience shacked all what I know about the Islamic traditional, so basically those decent guys, have a total different narrative, and they are "normal" Muslim contrary to extremist propaganda.

    this experience led me to be very skeptical of the tradition, and i come to the conclusion, that most of it, is an idealized reconstruction of a past that may have happened or not.

    i turned then to western scholars, and i was shocked by the state of early Islamic studies, it is into a total disarray !!!! it seems that there isn't even an agreement on the Basics,  there are a lot of competing models of " Islam origins".

    am I totally objective into reading those models ?, of course not, I still have a very poetic view of Khadija as a motherhood figure, do I believe the story of Zayd ? i totally rejected it, and consider it a later fabrication,  I don't even buy into Quraiza massacre , i consider it a myth, and I even use the Medina treaty as a proof.  do the Quran have different layers, anyone with basic arabic skills can figure out by himself.

    so unconsciously, i pick and choose " proofs " to confirm a pre established image.  may be i can't even  change that image, maybe I shouldn't, people like to have an idealized view of some historical past, why not ?



  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #58 - May 15, 2015, 08:28 AM

    I dont think it presupposes that. Even Galleys have sails, the purpose of the rowers is to power the ship only when the winds are not favourable. And rowing into a monsoon wind cannot be easy. That the Ottomans were able to use galleys for Red Sea trade speaks more to their power in terms of demographics, wealth, and technology in the 17th century that what was neccesarily possible during Late Antiquity on the fringes of the crumbling Roman Empire. It may be that at that time it simply made sense to switch to a land route at the 22nd parallel whether they were using galleys or sailboats. I haven't read your link yet,  does it describe the major ports and routes that they used? And whether they made use of monsoons?

    tbh I've only skimmed through the links rather than reading them carefully. The first one does mention a couple of Egyptian ports further north in the Red Sea. According to the second the ancient Egyptians used galleys in the Red Sea and merchant galleys were used in the Mediterranean throughout antiquity, although sailing ships were used far more for trade (as opposed to warfare). Monsoons are seasonal by definition and in antiquity people generally sailed with the seasons anyway. Yes people could have sailed part way up the Red Sea and switched to land, and possibly they did, but there was nothing forcing them to do this.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #59 - May 15, 2015, 09:48 AM

    ...I always believed that the Quran did not come from ex nihilo , I always knew this is not how religion and sacred text emerge.

    I worked once in Iraq, and Shia Iraqi liked to discuss with me, as for them, I was an open minded Sunni, and  this experience shacked all what I know about the Islamic traditional, so basically those decent guys, have a total different narrative, and they are "normal" Muslim contrary to extremist propaganda.


    Have you heard of Ahmad al-Qabbanji (أحمد القبانجي) an Iraqi Shi'a Imam who also takes the view that the Qur'an is not the literal word of God. A friend told me about him, though I have not had time to look him up much, but here is the Wiki on him:

    http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A3%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%AF_%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%AC%D9%8A

    I believe he very much follows the views of the Iranian scholar Abdul Karim Al-Soroush who I'm guessing you have heard of:

    http://www.drsoroush.com/English/Interviews/E-INT-The%20Word%20of%20Mohammad.html
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