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Theme Changer

 Topic: Yes I AM a Muslim!!

 (Read 19877 times)
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  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #60 - June 11, 2015, 03:13 AM

    three

    i edited my post, as it seems, it was understood differently from what i intent in the first place.

    all the scriptures are the product of the human mind, if really  God inspired them, I believe they would have been much better.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #61 - June 11, 2015, 03:21 AM

    I think that the Christian belief in Divine Inspiration has enabled Christianity to evolve and grow and become ultra tolerant.
    .................

    dear three., there is a huge difference irrespective of what is there in bible and what is there in Quran.. and that is Christ.. Jesus Christ.,

    Christ and Muhammad.....  both characters may be stories of some unknown characters. But stories  of Christ makes Christ followers (THOSE WHO FOLLOW CHRIST FOOT STEPS /STORIES OF CHRIST) the  towering figures of the human society such as  Jozef ("Jef") De Veuster,/Father Damien or Martin Luther King or Mother Teresa or the picture that you see in my profile..

    Follow Muhammad /stories of Muhammad Character you don't know where you will end up..  So it is not comparable except "Both are Faiths"

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #62 - June 11, 2015, 03:33 AM

    Seriously, English is my third language, can you please articulate what do you mean by "closing the gate", please no subtlety

    It read to me like a reference to this:
    http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3114/muslims-ijtihad
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #63 - June 11, 2015, 04:09 AM

    I think that the Christian belief in Divine Inspiration has enabled Christianity to evolve and grow and become ultra tolerant.

    There's also the central meanings of the gospels. Jesus is very clear that though he hasn't come to abolish the old law, let he who is without sin cast the first stone which pretty much makes it obsolete. Because we can do away with the old testament we're left with the spirituality and theistic philosophical pondering of the latter texts. Love your enemies, forgive those who wrong you, and quite possibly the greatest endorsement for secularism you'll find in an abrahamic text, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's".

    The god of the old testament is very much the god of the quran. It doesn't escape my notice that bigoted extremist sects of christianity so often use the old testament to justify their venom while hardly mentioning the new testament.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #64 - June 11, 2015, 04:14 AM

     curiousarabgirl, let me re-articulate your sentence.

    If you believe that the Quran has "multiple authors", how can you call yourself a Muslim? From an "orthodox" Islamic perspective, that is considered flat out kufr.


    ^^Yes, I should have qualified that statement. I will admit that my Islamic education was pretty orthodox, but I honestly don't understand how one can directly contradict the Quran (the Quran clearly states that God sent down the book to Muhammad) and still call themselves a Muslim.

     hatoush.,  curiousarabgirl is a DANGEROUS GIRL   and hatoush you are trying to  stop  the gates...... .. don't do that..... we need to open the Gates..


    ^^ Haha I WISH! I always wanted to be a rebel, but unfortunately that only extended to wearing mint green sunglasses while out in an Arab city once. Oh, and ditching my religion- now that's dangerous Smiley
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #65 - June 11, 2015, 04:18 AM

    thanks Zimriel

    it seems my post was lost in translation, let me try to re-articulated again.

    of course I am for the reopening of the Gate, I have only one issue with Hassan general framework,  How we should consider the Quran ?

    Hassan argue that he is fine with the idea that the Quran ( with a potential multiple authors) is inspired by God, I honestly don't know if it is a pragmatic approach to appeal to the mainstream Muslim thoughts or he really believe in that ( of course he is free to believe what he wants).

    in my humble opinion, saying the Quran is a God inspiration is too much concession to be accepted,  textual criticism easily show how human the Quran is ( and all the scriptures for that matter).

    I think it is time to seriously downplay the Authority of the Quran as a moral and legal reference.


  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #66 - June 11, 2015, 04:20 AM

    I think the way forward is for it to be acceptable for both views to be expressed.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #67 - June 11, 2015, 04:24 AM

    ................................The god of the old testament is very much the god of the quran. It doesn't escape my notice that bigoted extremist sects of christianity so often use the old testament to justify their venom while hardly mentioning the new testament.


    Mr. Dennisprager will floor you for your words.. QSD...
    ...................
    Quote
    yeeze.....: :  hatoush.,  curiousarabgirl is a DANGEROUS GIRL   and hatoush you are trying to  stop  the gates...... .. don't do that..... we need to open the Gates..


    ^^ Haha I WISH! I always wanted to be a rebel, but unfortunately that only extended to wearing mint green sunglasses while out in an Arab city once. Oh, and ditching my religion- now that's dangerous Smiley


    Hmm.. with those words curiousarabgirl sounds like Prophet Material...

    Jesus Ditched his religion...
    Muhammad ditched his religion...
    and curiousarabgirl ditches her religion.....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #68 - June 11, 2015, 04:39 AM


    look at hatoush... he says "No I am not closing the gate" and then writes this   
    thanks Zimriel

    it seems my post was lost in translation, let me try to re-articulated again.

    of course I am for the reopening of the Gate, I have only one issue with Hassan general framework,  How we should consider the Quran ?

    Hassan argue that he is fine with the idea that the Quran ( with a potential multiple authors) is inspired by God, I honestly don't know if it is a pragmatic approach to appeal to the mainstream Muslim thoughts or he really believe in that ( of course he is free to believe what he wants).
    Quote
    in my humble opinion, saying the Quran is a God inspiration is too much concession to be accepted,  textual criticism easily show how human the Quran is ( and all the scriptures for that matter).

    I think it is time to seriously downplay the Authority of the Quran as a moral and legal reference.


    That is NOT opening the gate or reopening the gate .. it is closing the gate.. and you are doing it in every post hatoush

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #69 - June 11, 2015, 08:09 AM

    thanks Zimriel

    it seems my post was lost in translation, let me try to re-articulated again.

    of course I am for the reopening of the Gate, I have only one issue with Hassan general framework,  How we should consider the Quran ?

    Hassan argue that he is fine with the idea that the Quran ( with a potential multiple authors) is inspired by God, I honestly don't know if it is a pragmatic approach to appeal to the mainstream Muslim thoughts or he really believe in that ( of course he is free to believe what he wants).

    in my humble opinion, saying the Quran is a God inspiration is too much concession to be accepted,  textual criticism easily show how human the Quran is ( and all the scriptures for that matter).

    I think it is time to seriously downplay the Authority of the Quran as a moral and legal reference.


    As I say I have a very personal view of inspiration and of god.

    I actually don't like the term god as it is too closely tied to the abrahamuc god.

    I believe loosely that there is 'something' - some sort of cosmic force, call it nature if you want.

    I believe inspiration comes through this force of nature that we are part of.

    So when I say Qur'an is inspired by god, it is a very human inspiration.

    All art is human in origin yet can be regarded as inspired by the forces of nature - which I will call god for want of a better word.

    Yes I think I am consciously trying to build a bridge between my agnostic beliefs and my disbeliefs.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #70 - June 11, 2015, 08:11 AM

    And why not?

    Millions of Christians and those of other faith are comfortable with that.

    Why not Muslims?
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #71 - June 11, 2015, 08:14 AM

    Sorry double post
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #72 - June 11, 2015, 08:29 AM

    Many famous artists, writers, composers, mathematicians etc say they were divinely inspired..  well and people I know too, they are not quite sure where the inspiration comes from, rather flows through them.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #73 - June 11, 2015, 08:40 AM

    I get those same feelings of inspiration, I don't think it's from an actual god though. Could be wrong. My latest inspiration could well have been given to me by a god of poetry.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #74 - June 11, 2015, 09:36 AM

    When I am bored, I paint. And my latest inspiration is in my 5 year old daughter's hazel eyes, and that's just today. Tomorrow it could be the burning filter in my ciggy, who knows.......Are these mini-gods?  Huh?

    I don't think so. I think inspiration comes from all sorts of things around us. And I think what Hassan is saying/believes in is;  the same sort/type of inspirations that today's artists/writers/musicians/authors etc get from "nature", could have been the same type/sort of god/nature that was there to inspire the Qoran. (forgive me Hassan if I am simplifying your definition of 'inspiration'). The point is, Hassan is entitled to his beliefs. And to me how he broke it down is one heck of a narrative that Muslims could actually embrace. So IMO (simplistic as it is) Hassan could be the guy that Muslims need today to introduce the doubt of "I dont know who/what god was but I believe he was there".

    Tired of the bull-shit. I write my own doctrines.
  • Re: Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #75 - June 11, 2015, 10:34 AM

    I think that those of us keen on seeing reform in Islam too often direct our dialogue/arguments towards the (often self-appointed) Muslim spokesmen, preachers, leaders, clerics, pundits, dawaghandists etc... I think we give them an importance we shouldn't. We should ignore them as they will rarely change their tune. They are the biggest obstacle to reform. They will only shift when forced to.


    Im not sure about this
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #76 - June 11, 2015, 12:05 PM

    Im not sure about this

    well if you are not sure about it then explain in-detail to the readers on  this

    ..............I think that those of us keen on seeing reform in Islam too often direct our dialogue/arguments towards the (often self-appointed) Muslim spokesmen, preachers, leaders, clerics, pundits, dawaghandists etc... ............
    .................


    what you are not sure about that Skywalker ?.. stress more on  

    1).  "direct our dialogue/arguments"      and and  on

    2). " (often self-appointed) Muslim spokesmen, preachers, leaders, clerics, pundits, dawaghandists"

    Question is how did they get appointed?  what is the technique?  spell it out  Skywalker..  in fact we can go all the way down to that NUMBER ONES of religions.. the prophets .. are they self appointed??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #77 - June 11, 2015, 12:32 PM

    When I am bored, I paint. And my latest inspiration is in my 5 year old daughter's hazel eyes, and that's just today. Tomorrow it could be the burning filter in my ciggy, who knows.......Are these mini-gods?  Huh?

    I don't think so. I think inspiration comes from all sorts of things around us. And I think what Hassan is saying/believes in is;  the same sort/type of inspirations that today's artists/writers/musicians/authors etc get from "nature", could have been the same type/sort of god/nature that was there to inspire the Qoran. (forgive me Hassan if I am simplifying your definition of 'inspiration'). The point is, Hassan is entitled to his beliefs. And to me how he broke it down is one heck of a narrative that Muslims could actually embrace. So IMO (simplistic as it is) Hassan could be the guy that Muslims need today to introduce the doubt of "I dont know who/what god was but I believe he was there".



    Personally, I believe that “god” itself is (or, gods themselves are) a very human experience, a human emotion. Humans are, as much as we can tell, the only species capable of experiencing what we call god. This does not make it a separate, real entity, nor does it make it fake. It is abstract. It is like love. Or lust. Or rage. If you have never experienced it before, it is easy to chuck it down to scientific explanations of biology and chemistry. When you have experienced it, though, as humans do, then it becomes real – even if only to you and in your own unique way.

    I think that atheists often miss the mark when trying to persuade religious people that their god is not real. Like the Sikh guy who debated dawahman said, he doesn’t need for anyone to prove god to him because he has already experienced it.

    Personally, I can certainly say that I experienced god. Many an evening in the rawdah in Madinah, I definitely found god there. But what was that? Did it exist anywhere outside my own mind? I honestly couldn’t tell you. But it was probably the same thing the Sikh guy experienced, and the same thing my Christian grandmother used to experience, and the same thing Bob Marley experienced when he said “We lift our heads and give Jah praises, yeah.”

    To me, the most important thing, if you are inclined to believe in gods, is to also believe that they are on your side; I don’t believe a man can live sane believing in the potential that his god could be against him. Of course, this is also the most dangerous. Gods mirror the man. They are the sum of his hopes, his fears, his trusts, his focus, his aspirations, mixed in with all of the things he cannot fully understand and that lie beyond his limitations. You draw on that sense of awe to get you through your challenges. When used for good, gods can do amazing things. When used for the opposite, they can be appalling.

    If we suppose that Muhammad were real, then certainly his god inspired him to achieve the remarkable feat that he did. As did St Paul’s god inspire him. As did Guru Nanak’s god inspire him.

    In the Qur’an it speaks of sibghat allah- the essence of God. A few days ago I commented on the so called Verse of Light that speaks of Gods light as ultimately being as brilliant star, but fueled by the oil of a humble, earthly tree that does not actually need to be lit in order to shine. I’m not a Muslim, but I do think it’s interesting to interpret that verse from a very human, agnostic perspective. Even if it is not actually lit, even if it is not actually real, what the essence of god can do to humans is abundantly apparent. Gods might be our greatest creation.   

  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #78 - June 11, 2015, 01:13 PM

    well if you are not sure about it then explain in-detail to the readers on  this

    what you are not sure about that Skywalker ?.. stress more on 

    There are reasons to suspect that strategies that are obviously designed to update what is considered the last and final message will face problems, partly because of lack of legitimacy within the text and partly due to internal strategy that exist within the muslim community to counter such attempts. I think most people can be convinced by an interpretation, but that they themselves don't see it as a choice.Essentially arguments matter. Certain types of people maybe affected, but I doubt it can be a significant number enough to challenge the status quo. Moreover, would such people be able to propagate their ideas more than they are losing follower? Would those followers of such a liberal interpretation be lost to nonbelief or traditional Islam to a greater extent than the numbers joining, over he long term ? If yes, then the principal of survival of the fittest suggest that the norm will propagate within the group.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #79 - June 11, 2015, 01:18 PM

    Personally, I believe that “god” itself is (or, gods themselves are) a very human experience, a human emotion. Humans are, as much as we can tell, the only species capable of experiencing what we call god.


    My dog would bark at thunder, and wolves howl at the moon. It seems that at least canines have a belief in supernatural forces.

    Quote
    If we suppose that Muhammad were real, then certainly his god inspired him to achieve the remarkable feat that he did. As did St Paul’s god inspire him. As did Guru Nanak’s god inspire him.


    I get what you are saying about spirituality being part of human nature. But I am very skeptical that anyone who uses that spirituality to build an organized religion for the purposes of social engineering and/or nation building could be anything other than a cynical atheist. I have a hunch that Muhammad, or whoever created Islam, was an atheist. And Jesus (if he existed) was also an atheist. A lot of these spiritual gurus, prophets, and priests were well known as frauds by educated commentators. Temples would have hidden compartments where a man would speak the voice of a God. Remember that this was a time when if anyone wanted to create a grass roots popular movement either for social reform or for personal power, it would be necessary to appeal to the super-natural. And there was no shortage of smart, cunning people that were willing to do that, even if they themselves were cynics.

    Quote
    Gods might be our greatest creation.


    Can you try to explain what is so great about them?
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #80 - June 11, 2015, 01:21 PM

    huh! troubles in life  .. well that is life but Skywalker
    1).  There are reasons to suspect that strategies that are obviously designed to update what is considered the last and final message will face problems, partly because of lack of legitimacy within the text and partly due to internal strategy that exist within the muslim community to counter such attempts.

    2). I think most people can be convinced by an interpretation, but that they themselves don't see it as a choice.Essentially arguments matter. Certain types of people maybe affected, but I doubt it can be a significant number enough to challenge the status quo.

    3).  Moreover, would such people be able to propagate their ideas more than they are losing follower? Would those followers of such a liberal interpretation be lost to nonbelief or traditional Islam to a greater extent than the numbers joining, over he long term ? If yes, then the principal of survival of the fittest suggest that the norm will propagate within the group.


    all that is entirely different subject  runs faraway from the questions I posed..  questions are  


    1).  "direct our dialogue/arguments"      and and  on

    2). " (often self-appointed) Muslim spokesmen, preachers, leaders, clerics, pundits, dawaghandists"

    Question is how did they get appointed?  what is the technique?  spell it out  Skywalker..  in fact we can go all the way down to that NUMBER ONES of religions.. the prophets .. are they self appointed??

    but you pointed at very important subject .. day to day problems with Islam Followers and to those who question Islam as faith..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #81 - June 11, 2015, 01:27 PM

    My dog would bark at thunder, and wolves howl at the moon. It seems that at least canines have a belief in supernatural forces.

    Well, to your dog, you are probably a god.

    Quote
    I get what you are saying about spirituality being part of human nature. But I am very skeptical that anyone who uses that spirituality to build an organized religion for the purposes of social engineering and/or nation building could be anything other than a cynical atheist. I have a hunch that Muhammad, or whoever created Islam, was an atheist. And Jesus (if he existed) was also an atheist. A lot of these spiritual gurus, prophets, and priests were well known as frauds by educated commentators. Temples would have hidden compartments where a man would speak the voice of a God. Remember that this was a time when if anyone wanted to create a grass roots popular movement either for social reform or for personal power, it would be necessary to appeal to the super-natural. And there was no shortage of smart, cunning people that were willing to do that, even if they themselves were cynics.


    I doubt they were atheists. I think it’s more likely, and more apparent, that they defined their god on their own terms.
    Quote

    Can you try to explain what is so great about them?


    Look at what they can get us to do.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #82 - June 11, 2015, 01:33 PM

    My dog would bark at thunder, and wolves howl at the moon. It seems that at least canines have a belief in supernatural forces. .....

      I am pretty sure there are plenty of species on earth apart from canines and human beings  that respond to natural forces including disastrous natural calamities..  but Tonyt ., what is your opinion on Happy_M' words
    Quote
    ........If we suppose that Muhammad were real, then certainly his god inspired him to achieve the remarkable feat that he did. As did St Paul’s god inspire him. As did Guru Nanak’s god inspire him.........


    god inspires.....his god inspires him ... happy_m god inspires happy_m  ... your god inspires you ....   my god inspires me .. Hassan's god inspires  Hassan....

    well  let me watch this again..   god must have inspired buffalo

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #83 - June 11, 2015, 01:35 PM

    Look at what they can get us to do.


    A lot of wars, a lot of conquests, a lot of grandiose buildings with solid gold domes taken from other people's land. And even all of those kinds of things were also done by secular forces as well.

    It was not belief in Gods that took us to the moon, that discovered evolution and the real origins of all the majestic diversity of life, that gave us cures to countless diseases. All of that was achieved by rational secular curiosity.

  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #84 - June 11, 2015, 01:42 PM

    yeezevee

    Quote
    all that is entirely different subject  runs faraway from the questions I posed..  questions are

     

    My answer was to this
    well if you are not sure about it then explain in-detail to the readers on  this

    what you are not sure about that Skywalker ?.. stress more on 


    The idea that you can use a shortcut and talk directly to the normal muslim assumes that the normal muslim knows something differently than what the religious leaders knows, which is partly true. The internet makes the access to the text of traditional Islam a simple matter. Anyone can read about Sharia/fiqh/Aqidah and about issues that were settled a thousand year ago. A certain type of muslim might be susceptible to a liberal interpration, but what happens when they are challenged by a muslim who can use Shaykh Google?
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #85 - June 11, 2015, 01:44 PM

    A lot of wars, a lot of conquests, a lot of grandiose buildings with solid gold domes taken from other people's land. And even all of those kinds of things were also done by secular forces as well.

    It was not belief in Gods that took us to the moon, that discovered evolution and the real origins of all the majestic diversity of life, that gave us cures to countless diseases. All of that was achieved by rational secular curiosity.


    Religion (or as Scott Atran puts it "Transcendental beliefs") is arguably one of the main reasons for the rapid evolution & amazing development of the human race since we jumped down from the trees.

    Yes it is highly problematic - but it has inspired and motivated humans to achieve great things too.

    The problem is that in the world today it's negatives outweigh its positives. But we still have nothing yet that can provide such motivation, loyalty and selfless endeavour as religion does... or at least did.

    Take a look at this debate - it makes the point better than I can (it's only 35 minutes):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xomaqSOxZiU

     
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #86 - June 11, 2015, 01:47 PM

    I get those same feelings of inspiration, I don't think it's from an actual god though. Could be wrong. My latest inspiration could well have been given to me by a god of poetry.


    Aww, I'm so touched you'd be inspired by me in that way.  001_wub

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #87 - June 11, 2015, 01:48 PM

    A lot of wars, a lot of conquests, a lot of grandiose buildings with solid gold domes taken from other people's land. And even all of those kinds of things were also done by secular forces as well.

    It was not belief in Gods that took us to the moon, that discovered evolution and the real origins of all the majestic diversity of life, that gave us cures to countless diseases. All of that was achieved by rational secular curiosity.





    I think you are missing the point of what I’m saying. Nothing has moved humanity from the plains of Africa to the remarkable achievements you mention the way that faith has. It is a natural phenomenon. As I said, it is the culmination of hopes, fears, trust, and the will to carry on. It’s not an external thing. It’s a very human thing.

    Yes, the wars, the conquests, and the buildings were a result of people’s faith in gods – and that in and of itself is truly remarkable. But what else can cause human beings to behave the way that gods can? Love of family and country may be a far second, but nothing really tops what gods can do. Even some of our most esteemed secular documents appeal to things like providence and our “creator,” not because they are real in the way that you and I are real, but because they are real in the way that concepts like freedom and empathy are real.  
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #88 - June 11, 2015, 01:50 PM

    Humm.... There is a great deal of information in Hassan's post.
    When I first read his account (and I did read the whole thing) I though him a man who was very thoughtful and one who felt deeply about issues. Not the least bit superficial.

    Well, Hassan everyone (from my point of view) is on a journey (so to spoke) for the purpose of evaluating the available information about God (the one who created the earth and all things) or not bothering to do that.  No two people are ever in the exact same place on that journey at the same time.  May your journey not only be one that helps you as a person but also takes you to a successful destination.

    I hope you the best.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #89 - June 11, 2015, 01:53 PM


    Look at what they can get us to do.



    https://youtu.be/5whe9XtdQgw?t=3m42s

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
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