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Reply #150 - August 06, 2015, 10:46 PM

lol, Yes, I saw it. Didn't understand a word, though. (And the crass joke above is actually a quote from a friend of mine when I asked him the same thing about the same movie. A friend. As in, not me. )
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Reply #151 - August 06, 2015, 11:23 PM

Quote from: CallMeTed on August 05, 2015, 06:51 PM
You flog them for being inconsistent with their beliefs because the subscribed to them. If a community of people all agree to obey a set of laws and rules and some members of the community disobey it then is not punishment due? If people want to leave that community because they don't like the laws and rules then it's fine let them leave and do as they please.

As believers in God and the Quran we have agreed to abide by the laws we believe God has given to us.

Wait so if a person was born into a Muslim family and didn't personally choose to be a Muslim, and then left Islam, should they be punished?

Quote from: CallMeTed on August 05, 2015, 09:56 PM
Problem is that people are just not interested in wanting to know the truth. This includes many believers. They'd rather spend their time discussing vain things. They don't want true happiness they want the tiny, temporary happiness of this world/life.

I've been told that if I want an easy life I should call myself an atheist and everything will be easy but I will suffer in the hereafter. This sounds like a similar argument. But the fact of the matter is that good and bad things happen at about the same rate to everyone, regardless of their beliefs, so I don't see the point of that statement.

Quote from: three on August 06, 2015, 01:42 AM
I am still stuck on the Muslim=evolved Christian thing.

I read the Bible (OT and NT) and the Quran numerous times and they do not mesh at all. Most of the believing Christians in the USA (multiple denominations) believe that Christ came to release the Jews from the law. So it makes no sense to replace that set of laws with Shariah, it negates the purpose of Christ. The claims that one message morphed into the next makes no sense, as they are not compatible.

I think galfromusa would know more about this than myself, really. But that's my impression.

Aww thanks three I was going to get to that, question his beliefs on Jesus, anyway, but your little vote of confidence has provided the perfect segway. So, CallMeTed, what are your views on Jesus, his mission, and the truthiness of the Christian Bible's view of him?

Quote from: CallMeTed on August 06, 2015, 02:00 PM
Seems like you haven't read the Bible properly or don't really understand them because if you did you'd know that Jesus never came to abolish the law in fact he followed the law himself. What is the Shariah? All the laws for Muslims should come from the Quran.

So which books of the Christian Bible do you think are "valid"? I'm assuming not Hebrews or the works of Paul (both real and pseudonymous), based on your statement?

Just fyi, my responses may be a bit slow because I'm so sick. I went to the emergency room (think you brits call it the A&E?) yesterday but they couldn't figure out what was wrong so they gave me antibiotics and a nausea med and sent me home.

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Reply #152 - August 07, 2015, 12:31 AM

Quote from: CallMeTed on August 06, 2015, 10:03 PM
Of course it does. And I think I know why you don't believe in God as I was an atheist at one time.

Okay, then what's your hunch on that end? Do keep in mind that you could easily look up my post history and see as I've clearly stated it in my intro post and other places. And for me I've never looked beyond the Quran for the content of Islamic teaching and practice, so you can't simply say I'm taking something from a "wrong source".

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Reply #153 - August 07, 2015, 01:29 AM

Quote from: CallMeTed on August 06, 2015, 02:00 PM
Seems like you haven't read the Bible properly or don't really understand them because if you did you'd know that Jesus never came to abolish the law in fact he followed the law himself. What is the Shariah? All the laws for Muslims should come from the Quran.

Oh wait, is this the "I am smarter than you and therefore I understand religion and canonical text well enough to believe in it" argument? Because I like that one. It is SO informed. And polite.

If Jesus followed the law then why did the Jewish priesthood want him gone and refuse to recognize him? Surely any sheep would have been in their favor.

If all law comes from Quran then what do you propose we do about all that is not covered in Quran- are we free to do as we wish if the subject is not contained in Quran? You are rejecting hadith and fiqh?

If you reject hadith, how do you establish the context that you keep referring to?

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Reply #154 - August 07, 2015, 01:39 AM

Quote from: CallMeTed on August 05, 2015, 09:56 PM
Problem is that people are just not interested in wanting to know the truth. This includes many believers. They'd rather spend their time discussing vain things. They don't want true happiness they want the tiny, temporary happiness of this world/life.

true happiness? do you mean being dressed with the finest of silk clothes, golden jewellery, resting on comfy couches, drinking endless rivers of wine and having sex with countless of dark eyed busty bosomed houris, whose vaginas have not yet been penetrated by jinn or men?

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Reply #155 - August 07, 2015, 01:45 AM

Quote from: Qtian on August 06, 2015, 09:55 PM
Love that movie, though. Have you seen Snatch?

I love both.

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Reply #156 - August 07, 2015, 01:49 AM

Quote from: galfromusa on August 06, 2015, 11:23 PM

Just fyi, my responses may be a bit slow because I'm so sick. I went to the emergency room (think you brits call it the A&E?) yesterday but they couldn't figure out what was wrong so they gave me antibiotics and a nausea med and sent me home.

I hope you follow that up with a visit to the doc. You need to know what it is! And feel better, soon!

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Reply #157 - August 07, 2015, 03:16 AM

Quote from: three on August 07, 2015, 01:49 AM
I hope you follow that up with a visit to the doc. You need to know what it is! And feel better, soon!

Thanks...I'm far too sick to go to the doctor's office, I had to take an ambulance to the hospital because I was too afraid I'd throw up if I took a cab, and as soon as I got into the hospital bed I threw up. They did attach an IV and rehydrate me, so that's good at least; in the past week I've lost about 15 lbs/7 kg of water weight so that's a right pain. But at least I managed to sleep today, better than the last 3 days, and that seems to have helped with the slurring words based on my phone calls I had to make, people seemed to be able to understand me and not need me to repeat myself several times.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
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Reply #158 - August 07, 2015, 09:33 AM

Quote from: asbie on August 07, 2015, 12:31 AM
Okay, then what's your hunch on that end? Do keep in mind that you could easily look up my post history and see as I've clearly stated it in my intro post and other places. And for me I've never looked beyond the Quran for the content of Islamic teaching and practice, so you can't simply say I'm taking something from a "wrong source".

It's most likely because you can't see the evidence of God. There's nothing tangible which you can refer to. Anyone can make up books and words and say it's from God. Anyone can claim to be a prophet. When some people say that everything is created by God it just doesn't make sense to an atheist.

I read your introduction. I too read the Maariful commentary. I've also read Ibn Kathir, I can't say I was too impressed or enlightened. There are some useful, interesting parts in terms of historical context and things you could relate to but I think it could be improved.

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Reply #159 - August 07, 2015, 09:38 AM

Quote from: galfromusa on August 07, 2015, 03:16 AM
Thanks...I'm far too sick to go to the doctor's office, I had to take an ambulance to the hospital because I was too afraid I'd throw up if I took a cab, and as soon as I got into the hospital bed I threw up. They did attach an IV and rehydrate me, so that's good at least; in the past week I've lost about 15 lbs/7 kg of water weight so that's a right pain. But at least I managed to sleep today, better than the last 3 days, and that seems to have helped with the slurring words based on my phone calls I had to make, people seemed to be able to understand me and not need me to repeat myself several times.

I hope you get better soon. I'd like to humbly suggest that you try fasting. No need to pray just abstain from food and carry on drinking some water. When you break your fast try to eat natural organic foods. I've been doing it ever since ramadan started this year and I do feel better and stronger. My thoughts being that the things I was eating was damaging my body. By fasting I'm letting my body heal itself just as it's been designed to do. God willing you will get better soon.

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Reply #160 - August 07, 2015, 09:38 AM

Quote from: CallMeTed on August 07, 2015, 09:33 AM
It's most likely because you can't see the evidence of God. There's nothing tangible which you can refer to. Anyone can make up books and words and say it's from God. Anyone can claim to be a prophet. When some people say that everything is created by God it just doesn't make sense to an atheist.

Not agreeing when some people say that everything is created by this god or that god does not automatically indicate lack of understanding.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #161 - August 07, 2015, 10:48 AM

Quote from: three on August 07, 2015, 01:29 AM
Oh wait, is this the "I am smarter than you and therefore I understand religion and canonical text well enough to believe in it" argument? Because I like that one. It is SO informed. And polite.

If Jesus followed the law then why did the Jewish priesthood want him gone and refuse to recognize him? Surely any sheep would have been in their favor.

If all law comes from Quran then what do you propose we do about all that is not covered in Quran- are we free to do as we wish if the subject is not contained in Quran? You are rejecting hadith and fiqh?

If you reject hadith, how do you establish the context that you keep referring to?

Well I did warn that I can be arrogant.

The Jewish priesthood wanted him gone because he claimed to be a prophet of God and the Messiah. They saw no evidence of this and asked him to show them some miracles so he could prove it to them. But Jesus deliberately didn't. He told them to go and ask the people who witnessed his miracles. It was the Jews who lauded over their positions, the ones who took pride in being Jews and considering others to be inferior, the ones who had no heart who hated Jesus. The other Jews and non Jews had no issue with him and most loved his teachings. The crucifixion of Jesus was meant to happen so that the will and the hearts of the misguided Jews could be exposed. Ironically they honoured prophets of the OT which had been persecuted and killed for preaching righteousness yet they did exactly the same thing to Jesus (or they thought they killed him since as a believer in the Quran I can't accept the Jews killed him or crucified him).

When you ask "If all law comes from Quran then what do you propose we do about all that is not covered in Quran" you are thinking like the Jews of the priesthood. Try to understand what Jesus preached, what the Quran teaches, what the prophet Mohammed went through and the other prophets of God who suffered. Every person is created with a sense of right and wrong, compassion, kindness, etc. Which is why you don't need revelation to go into detail about what is right and wrong and how to behave. Which is why atheists can be just as kind, caring, selfless as a devout believer.

Revelation from God contains guidance and knowledge of the unseen as well as support and warnings. Use it to soften your heart and become a better person.

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Reply #162 - August 07, 2015, 11:27 AM

The unseen can only be guessed at, by definition, as Allah leaves such things unexplained to all but a very few (3:179).

How is such conjecture helpful to anyone seeking to 'soften one's heart', never mind 'become a better person'?

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Reply #163 - August 07, 2015, 11:38 AM

Quote from: CallMeTed on August 07, 2015, 10:48 AM
as a believer in the Quran I can't accept the Jews killed him or crucified him)

According to theology it was the Romans, but who knows if he even existed.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #164 - August 07, 2015, 11:41 AM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on August 06, 2015, 07:33 PM
Sure, if you want to.

I tend to think of them as different, but in the sense of a remake/reboot. Like I acknowledge that both the George Clooney Batman and the Christian Bale Batman are both Batman, but different enough you can talk about them separately.

Topic has been created - Is there scientific evidence that proves the existence God? http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=29151.0

Please join.

Ringside seats - http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=29150.0

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Reply #165 - August 07, 2015, 11:42 AM

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #166 - August 07, 2015, 12:07 PM

Quote from: toor on August 07, 2015, 11:27 AM
The unseen can only be guessed at, by definition, as Allah leaves such things unexplained to all but a very few (3:179).

How is such conjecture helpful to anyone seeking to 'soften one's heart', never mind 'become a better person'?

The unseen requires trust in God ie Faith. There's no need to see Hellfire or Heaven, or the angels or what will happen in your life in the future in order for you to become a better person. In fact certain knowledge of the unseen could easily weaken you or make you constantly worry about it. For example if you saw Hellfire and truly experienced it's seriousness and it's magnitude and the sheer calamity you may constantly fear it and not be able to go about your normal life. You may even lose your faith in God by thinking how can this God create such a thing.

The Jews at the time of Moses witnessed many miracles. Did it make them better persons? No it didn't. They openly disobeyed God. Only those whose hearts truly appreciated God obeyed him and were patient and persevering. We use revelations and teachings to understand them and practice them. God teaches and guides you gently. He doesn't expect you to become a wonderful person overnight or to truly believe in him after reading a few verses. It's going to take time for the vast majority of us. We will be given good things and bad things, trials and tribulations to make us think and discover who we really are.

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Reply #167 - August 07, 2015, 12:23 PM

So, what is the point of hellfire?
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Reply #168 - August 07, 2015, 12:26 PM

You don't need to see hell for you to even fear it. The Quran talking about hell convey the seriousness already. Many Muslim perform their ibadah from the fear of hell and Allah punishment for them not doing it. Holding on to Islam no matter what. Your arguement of people able to see hell losing faith does NOT stand assuming it is true.

Allah have prepared hell knowing full well that many humans and including Muslims would fail the test. What is the point of Allah doing this for people to be "good"? When the good people that never commited any crime good people that are NOT Muslims that never accepted the revelations would be straight send to hell? People that have help the world from cancer and poverty very good people that never accepted revelation would duel on it . But it can take a convert to Islam no matter how heinous their cruelty or crime is to be accepted in heaven as their sins are banish as a convert.
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Reply #169 - August 07, 2015, 12:30 PM

"When the good people that never commited any crime good people that are not Muslims that never accepted the revelations would be straight send to hell?

Which verse of the Quran says this?

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Reply #170 - August 07, 2015, 12:34 PM

"Verily, those who have disbelieved from amongst the people of the scripture and the polytheists shall be in the fire of hell to abide therein forever. It is they who are the worst of creatures." Al Bayyina, can't be bothered to look up the verse number.
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Reply #171 - August 07, 2015, 12:35 PM

http://quranx.com/98.6

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Reply #172 - August 07, 2015, 12:39 PM

Quote from: CallMeTed on August 07, 2015, 12:07 PM
The unseen requires trust in God ie Faith. There's no need to see Hellfire or Heaven, or the angels or what will happen in your life in the future in order for you to become a better person. In fact certain knowledge of the unseen could easily weaken you or make you constantly worry about it. For example if you saw Hellfire and truly experienced it's seriousness and it's magnitude and the sheer calamity you may constantly fear it and not be able to go about your normal life. You may even lose your faith in God by thinking how can this God create such a thing.

That's some wonderfully circular reasoning you've got there. A couple of problems with it:

- knowledge that an all-powerful creator that demands our belief and worship, and will punish us with Hellfire - and this, remember, is an example of divine mercy at work - if we should fail to do so, is probably a sufficient driver to lose faith, without any further knowledge of the unseen required.
- saying that one has to have faith to believe in the unseen is about as convincing as saying that one has to know Santa in one's heart to believe in the existence of a global 'naughty or nice' list. One unsubstantiable belief is thus propped up by another, and we're back at square one.

Why not just admit that you like the aesthetics of the Islam you know, and leave it at that?

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Reply #173 - August 07, 2015, 01:01 PM

You guys have clearly misunderstood the verse. I'd probably need to spend many days having to explain the misunderstandings you have. I think it's best if I first show the scientific evidence of God first then you have someone real and tangible to hold onto rather than just logical/moral arguments and conjecture.

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Reply #174 - August 07, 2015, 01:05 PM

Quote from: CallMeTed on August 07, 2015, 01:01 PM
You guys have clearly misunderstood the verse. I'd probably need to spend many days having to explain the misunderstandings you have. I think it's best if I first show the scientific evidence of God first then you have someone real and tangible to hold onto rather than just logical/moral arguments and conjecture.

So what does the verse actually mean? Please show your preferred meaning, and then the steps necessary to understand it to be the case.

It shouldn't be hard, as you already presumably know what it means.

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Reply #175 - August 07, 2015, 01:07 PM

I don't misunderstood the misunderstood the verse at all it is taken word for word. Allah says he makes the Quran clear. No I have not taken it out of context Allah do say it.

By the way have you ask any Islamic scholar or ustad about you intepretation of Islam?
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Reply #176 - August 07, 2015, 01:28 PM

Quote from: toor on August 07, 2015, 01:05 PM
So what does the verse actually mean? Please show your preferred meaning, and then the steps necessary to understand it to be the case.

It shouldn't be hard, as you already presumably know what it means.

It's not hard per say. It's just that it going to involve a lot of back and forth discussion to explain the history of the Jews and polytheism and maybe other related things. And those things may need further explanations depending on how much you have read and understood the Quran and the Bible.

The quick explanation is that people who know God exists for example those of the People of the Book and the polytheists and who are knowingly persisting in doing wrong will be sent to Hell. It's clearly not referring to atheists or those who don't truly know God exists and are living a good life as best they know.

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Reply #177 - August 07, 2015, 01:32 PM

Quote from: Closet on August 07, 2015, 01:07 PM
By the way have you ask any Islamic scholar or ustad about you intepretation of Islam?

No. I don't think they'd like it.

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Reply #178 - August 07, 2015, 01:44 PM

Hey Ted! Or do you prefer the full on CallmeTed, like A Tribe Called Quest where you always have to say the whole thing? Anyhow, I wanted to get your thoughts on this discussion, particularly the points made by the Living Goddess Ishina.

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=24729.0
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Reply #179 - August 07, 2015, 02:39 PM

Ted is fine (same goes for all members here). I had a quick look. I plan on taking it a step further. You made some good starting points and the response was typical and expected from Ishina.

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