Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.

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Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
Reply #210 - August 22, 2015, 05:06 PM

Quote from: Cornflower on August 22, 2015, 05:02 PM
~~Because the economical value of women is zero.~~ ...............

Cornflower .. who said that? where is it??

I WILL KILL ANY SCOUNDREL AND EVERY SCOUNDREL who says that... and that goes to every species and everything including allah/god voodoo doll ...

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
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Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
Reply #211 - August 22, 2015, 05:20 PM

Quote from: Cornflower on August 22, 2015, 05:02 PM
Because the economical value of women is zero. But allah in his mercy and love gave us half. You know so the men have money to replace us with new wives and stuff.

No but seriously. It's because the loss of a man has a greater economical impact. So they argue it's not about human value, rather replacement for the material loss. Which is bullshit if you look a bit closer, but we already know that.

It is nonsense because I have now been told that the diyah for destroying a man's genitals is the same as it is for a whole person. So it's cheaper to kill a woman than castrate a man!
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Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
Reply #212 - August 22, 2015, 05:56 PM

The thing to keep in mind is what I said several pages ago. The fact you may not like something in islam doesn't mean it's not true, it just means you don't like it. Something is not true or false based on our likes or dislikes, it's either true or it isn't. And frankly, islam flat out is not true.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
Reply #213 - August 22, 2015, 06:10 PM

Quote
The thing to keep in mind is what I said several pages ago. The fact you may not like something in islam doesn't mean it's not true, it just means you don't like it. Something is not true or false based on our likes or dislikes, it's either true or it isn't. And frankly, islam flat out is not true.

Yes but there are things that I don't like and things I can't live with. There are many things that I could convince myself to live with but the rape of slaves is not one of them if it's true :(
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Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
Reply #214 - August 22, 2015, 06:26 PM

It's true that islam doesn't have a problem with it, but islam itself isn't true, so no worries. At least that's how I see it, perhaps you don't.

The real worry for me is that people who do believe it can have their lives affected in really horrible ways. Not everyone does of course, and there's a lot of cherry picking, but for those who do...well, I guess that's why anti-theists exist.

One of the really painful things is countries that try to enforce age limits and have clerics raging against it because it's against allah, and some of the marriages are just frightening as well as disgusting. Like, a girl's silence is taken as consent. When I imagine an 8 year old child being married off to some horny pervert, I don't think "She isn't saying no so that means yes" I think "The poor child must be too terrified to speak?" I imagine that's common. Add in the shame and "honour" culture.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
Reply #215 - August 22, 2015, 06:47 PM

Quote
One of the really painful things is countries that try to enforce age limits and have clerics raging against it because it's against allah, and some of the marriages are just frightening as well as disgusting. Like, a girl's silence is taken as consent. When I imagine an 8 year old child being married off to some horny pervert, I don't think "She isn't saying no so that means yes" I think "The poor child must be too terrified to speak?" I imagine that's common. Add in the shame and "honour" culture.

It really is awful because they reject all evidence that children are not mentally prepared to be married.

I have had some Muslims accusing me of questioning some aspect of Islam because I want to follow my "whims and desires". However the fact that a man can have up to four wives and several concubines within any age range makes it seem like Islam is based on a man's whims and desires. I don't see the point of men being banned from adultery when they can potentially have dozens of women if they can afford them.
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Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
Reply #216 - August 22, 2015, 07:15 PM

Yeah, that whims and desires claim is bullshit. It's another claim of deficiency of character, and an excuse they give themselves to doubt you and your questions.
Because if they accept that you have legitimate questions, the sorts of questions that everyone ought to be asking, then they have to admit to themselves that they condone awful things in the name of religion.
Rather than admit what is monstrous in themselves and in their faith, they blame you. They accuse you. Anything they can do to avoid looking at the issues you bring up, they will do.
I think this is part of that cognitive dissonance.

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Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
Reply #217 - August 22, 2015, 07:54 PM

Quote from: AGirlWithDoubts on August 16, 2015, 10:45 PM

"Blatant misogyny in Islam" is what is making me question it.[/quote]
Hmm interesting words.. i want to get that from Quran not from nonsense in Islam...

so let us see. . what Quran says with verses "ISLAM" in them

Quote
Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning. ................. Aal-i-Imraan, Verse #19

And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers. ............. Aal-i-Imraan, Verse #85

Forbidden to you is that which dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that on which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, and the strangled (animal) and that beaten to death, and that killed by a fall and that killed by being smitten with the horn, and that which wild beasts have eaten, except what you slaughter, and what is sacrificed on stones set up (for idols) and that you divide by the arrows; that is a transgression. This day have those who disbelieve despaired of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me. This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion; but whoever is compelled by hunger, not inclining willfully to sin, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. .................Al-Maaida, Verse #3

herefore (for) whomsoever Allah intends that He would guide him aright, He expands his breast for Islam, and (for) whomsoever He intends that He should cause him to err, He makes his breast strait and narrow as though he were ascending upwards; thus does Allah lay uncleanness on those who do not believe. ..............Al-An'aam, Verse #125

They swear by Allah that they did not speak, and certainly they did speak, the word of unbelief, and disbelieved after their Islam, and they had determined upon what they have not been able to effect, and they did not find fault except because Allah and His Apostle enriched them out of His grace; therefore if they repent, it will be good for them; and if they turn back, Allah will chastise them with a painful chastisement in this world and the hereafter, and they shall not have in the land any guardian or a helper. .....................At-Tawba,.Verse #74)

Surely this Islam is your religion, one religion (only), and I am your Lord, therefore serve Me. ................Al-Anbiyaa, .Verse #92.

What! is he whose heart Allah has opened for Islam so that he is in a light from his Lord (like the hard-hearted)? Nay, woe to those whose hearts are hard against the remembrance of Allah; those are in clear error. .................Az-Zumar, . Verse #22

They think that they lay you under an obligation by becoming Muslims. Say: Lay me not under obligation by your Islam: rather Allah lays you under an obligation by guiding you to the faith if you are truthful. ..............Al-Hujuraat, . Verse #17

And who is more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah and he is invited to Islam, and Allah does not guide the unjust people. ...................As-Saff,.Verse #7

That is all what Quran says by using the word "ISLAM"...

ha! interesting ... He who is more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah is invited to Islam,

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
Reply #218 - August 22, 2015, 07:54 PM

Quote
Because if they accept that you have legitimate questions, the sorts of questions that everyone ought to be asking, then they have to admit to themselves that they condone awful things in the name of religion.
Rather than admit what is monstrous in themselves and in their faith, they blame you. They accuse you. Anything they can do to avoid looking at the issues you bring up, they will do.

Yes, the good old "your Iman is weak" and "who are you to question what Allah has ordained?"
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Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
Reply #219 - August 22, 2015, 07:56 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on August 22, 2015, 07:54 PM
"Blatant misogyny in Islam" is what is making me question it.
Hmm interesting words.. i want to get that from Quran not from nonsense in Islam...

so let us see. . what Quran says with verses "ISLAM" in them

That is all what Quran says by using the word "ISLAM"...

ha! interesting ... He who is more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah is invited to Islam,

I was always told "truth stands out from falsehood" if that's the case then why restrict the religious freedoms of others?
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Reply #220 - August 22, 2015, 08:03 PM

Quote from: AGirlWithDoubts on August 22, 2015, 07:54 PM
Yes, the good old "your Iman is weak" and "who are you to question what Allah has ordained?"

Problem with those answers is that it only leads to blind faith. If I am to judge a text as a product of God, I am evaluating God and God's acts as part of the text and as the author. If I can not do this then there is no evaluation to be had. Accept it blindly or be punished which is nothing more than a dictatorship.
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Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
Reply #221 - August 22, 2015, 10:10 PM

Quote
Problem with those answers is that it only leads to blind faith. If I am to judge a text as a product of God, I am evaluating God and God's acts as part of the text and as the author. If I can not do this then there is no evaluation to be had. Accept it blindly or be punished which is nothing more than a dictatorship.

That's what I told them. If they agree with blind faith then they can't criticise other religions for it.

A friends of mine, the only Muslim friend who I've told about my situation is worried for my soul. I do wonder whether I should have left her in blissful ignorance, as I know what it's like to be so scared of the idea that a friend might go to Hell. Ah well...
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Reply #222 - August 22, 2015, 10:35 PM

I once knew a lad, catholic. He was so fucked up and traumatised at the idea of hell that as a teenager he ended up in therapy because of it and had to take medication to cope. Parents still took him to church.

Hell is the most wicked, evil, disgusting fiction ever vomited from the mind of man. I remember being taught about it when I was little. Fucking child abuse.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
Reply #223 - August 22, 2015, 10:58 PM

Quote
Hell is the most wicked, evil, disgusting fiction ever vomited from the mind of man. I remember being taught about it when I was little. Fucking child abuse.

I did wonder if the thought of Hell ever gets easier. If I leave Islam I wonder whether I'll be free from it or would spend my life pondering on the possibility that it's real.

How awful :( what kind of parents are those???
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Reply #224 - August 22, 2015, 11:10 PM

Quote from: AGirlWithDoubts on August 22, 2015, 10:58 PM
How awful :( what kind of parents are those???

They are parents who were once innocent little children who had the same psychological abuse inflicted upon them by their parents and so on...
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Reply #225 - August 22, 2015, 11:59 PM

Quote from: AGirlWithDoubts on August 22, 2015, 10:58 PM
How awful :( what kind of parents are those???

True believers. In some ways you can't blame them. They honestly believe this religion is true, and they love their child. If I believed hell was a real place my child would go to if they didn't follow such and such I'd teach them about it as well. How else would I ensure my son or daughter doesn't burn for all eternity? I'd be wilfully damning their soul for all time to spare them fear and pain for the blink of an eye they exist in this life.

Ideas of heaven and hell can and often do profoundly retard our moral compass. We naturally take things in and form bonds and relationships and realise that other people feel joy and sadness and love and loss and hope and sorrow, just like us. Human morality is intrinsicly linked with our sense of empathy. This is part of our evolution as a social species. Great moral teachers throughout history, both religious and non religious, have independently taught what's become known as the golden rule. Treat others as you wish to be treated. This works well for us because we're not naturally a species of psychopaths.

What heaven and hell often does is limit our empathy. Instead of growing the way we're naturally supposed to, we get a perversion of it where we do good for promise of reward and do bad in fear of punishment. There are people who've left religion and their own mothers honestly cannot understand why they still want to be good people without the promise of heaven or the threat of flames licking their skin. You can see it all the time. People saying if you don't believe in divine judgement you have no basis for morals. People saying if they didn't believe in god they'd be stealing, raping, murdering. Quite frankly, if this is the only reason you don't unleash evil onto the world, you're not a good person. You're a monster in a cage.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #226 - August 23, 2015, 02:43 AM

People are also looking at Heaven/Hell dynamics as final justice. There is a lot of injustice in the world. Many people never face any consequences in life so the idea of an external system of justice is appealing. I do find this appealing as a student of history. Of course I do take issue with any ideology that puts forward actions and intent should not count for anything or that singular belief has more influence. I add intent since actions under false pretense is just a facade.
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Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
Reply #227 - August 23, 2015, 02:28 PM

True, I believed so strongly in Heaven and Hell that I wanted everyone I loved to eventually become a Muslim and I guess that if I were a parent, I would have (not so long ago) made sure that my kids learned about how scary Hell was to make sure that they stayed on the (straight path) and went to Heaven. I did also justify Hell by telling myself that evil people like Hitler who didn't face justice in this life would face it in the next life.
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Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
Reply #228 - August 23, 2015, 02:32 PM

I find it interesting that a number of Islamic rulings did not seem to apply to Prophet Muhammad and his family. He had nine wives and limited other Muslim men to four, when Ali asked to marry his daughter he said that she was "too young" until he eventually agreed. At the time Fatime was 19 and older than his favourite wife. Apparently in Islam every Muslim man has the right to polygamy if he can provide but he did not allow Ali to marry another woman unless he divorced his daughter first.
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Reply #229 - August 23, 2015, 03:57 PM

Quote from: AGirlWithDoubts on August 23, 2015, 02:32 PM
I find it interesting that a number of Islamic rulings did not seem to apply to Prophet Muhammad and his family. He had nine wives and limited other Muslim men to four, when Ali asked to marry his daughter he said that she was "too young" until he eventually agreed. At the time Fatime was 19 and older than his favourite wife. Apparently in Islam every Muslim man has the right to polygamy if he can provide but he did not allow Ali to marry another woman unless he divorced his daughter first.

Lol that is a lot like my parents' religious views...."If I like it, God's ok with it. If YOU like it, is was sent into this world by Satan."

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
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Reply #230 - August 23, 2015, 05:11 PM

Quote
Lol that is a lot like my parents' religious views...."If I like it, God's ok with it. If YOU like it, is was sent into this world by Satan."

There really is a lot of hypocrisy in religion.
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Reply #231 - August 23, 2015, 05:19 PM

I'm actually very interested in this "Agnostic Muslim" identity because I love some parts of Islam but there are others which I don't agree with. I do not want to believe in Hell or a cruel god who lets good people suffer eternally. I do not want to believe that my sister, a good person would be tortured forever in there and that the rest of my family might be watching her and laughing from their thrones. I do not believe that men and women are not equal.

On the other hand I love some aspects of Islam. I love Ramadhan (when I'm not at work) and Eid. I like to participate in Islamic charity events and think that it's a great thing to always be thankful for what I have. Maybe I'm a cultural Muslim? I don't know if I even qualify as that if I disown some parts of the religion.
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Reply #232 - August 23, 2015, 07:18 PM

There's actually a thread that discusses just that topic.

These were my thoughts on the matter.

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on December 28, 2013, 08:31 AM
Atheism as a religion is not Hamza's concept. Nor is the word scientism. It is, like everything else he sprouts, something someone else has came up with.

It's not really surprising that atheists will keep some rituals and traditions like Christmas. most people in this part of the world have fond memories of Christmas as children and want to give their own children that sense of excitement and childhood happiness. As ex-muslims become more mainstream and accepted I have no doubt many will still celebrate Eid in some form or another, just as I'm sure those people who grew up hindu but left the faith will have fond childhood memories of Diwali and seek to pass that on to their own children.

It can't be denied that as a species we like our traditions and rituals. Whether or not this is a natural aspect of humanity or something fundamentally ingrained into us over thousands and thousands and thousands of years of evolving cultures and societies, I don't know.

I'm not sure if you're aware, but a year ago there was an atheist church in London (google Sunday Assembly if you're curious). It was quite a hit, and last I heard it was spreading across the UK and even going international. The appeal of it, in my opinion, is the same as any appealing social setting. To feel you have support, to be around like-minded friendly people and to appreciate life. Fair enough. Humans naturally feel a need to connect.

The truth of the matter is, we've always taken the standards of the time we live in and made it our own. Consider marriage for an example. A long time ago in the western world, marriage was about religion, money, family politics and so on. Love wasn't a part of it. You did your duty to god and clan and if you were lucky you could have a good relationship with your husband/wife, though this wasn't the primary motive. People often dreamed of it being otherwise, but it was considered something childish. You grow up and you do your duty.

Nowadays it's different. I was born and raised in a culture that views marriage as a personal act, a commitment of two people, and it's all about love. It's the reason most of the western world is fine with gay marriage. We don't view it as being solely for family, or religion, or politics, or procreation, we view it as a very personal thing between two people. And we view it as an act of love.

So what's wrong with taking something and making it my own? What's wrong with Christmas lights and presents? What's wrong with an atheist getting married but writing their own vows instead of religious vows? What's wrong with pledging themselves to each other and promising each other rather than promising a god they don't believe in? What's wrong with having a funeral so your loved ones have a chance to grieve and find comfort in each other and say goodbye but making it your own rather than some Priest talking shit you never believed in saying you're going to a place everyone knows full well you didn't believe exists?

I'm very happy to take traditions I like and make them my own. Likewise, I'm also happy to create my own. I'll also abandon the ones I don't care for. This isn't a new thing. It's always been this way. That's why societies change.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #233 - August 23, 2015, 07:41 PM

Quote from: AGirlWithDoubts on August 23, 2015, 05:19 PM
I'm actually very interested in this "Agnostic Muslim" identity because I love some parts of Islam but there are others which I don't agree with. I do not want to believe in Hell or a cruel god who lets good people suffer eternally. I do not want to believe that my sister, a good person would be tortured forever in there and that the rest of my family might be watching her and laughing from their thrones. I do not believe that men and women are not equal.

On the other hand I love some aspects of Islam. I love Ramadhan (when I'm not at work) and Eid. I like to participate in Islamic charity events and think that it's a great thing to always be thankful for what I have. Maybe I'm a cultural Muslim? I don't know if I even qualify as that if I disown some parts of the religion.

I actually think labels are silly and meaningless. Unfortunately you can't escape them. I didn't feel totally happy with the label Ex-Muslim, because although I rejected somethings in Islam I liked other things - and I do have a vague belief in God - "something" beyond this material world - even though I can't define it.

I have a Pakistani friend who labels himself a cultural Muslim and even though he and I share pretty much identical beliefs I prefer Agnostic Muslim - simply because I don't really identify with any particular culture. My Asian friend is very much into Asian culture which is fine - I love Asian culture too (well somethings lol) but I'm not Asian. I'm half Egyptian and half English. If anything my culture is more English - with bits of Egyptian/Arab culture thrown in.

However it is some of the Islamic practices I like such as prayer, fasting, and as you say I like to participate in Islamic events with my Muslim family and friends.

So in short I prefer the label Agnostic Muslim.

Like I say I don't like labels but they get slapped on you whether you like it or not - so I'd rather choose my own - and I think Agnostic Muslim reflects the image that, yes I am a Muslim but I am also a freethinker and a sceptic and I will unapologetically pick and choose what I want and happily reject this and take that according to my own reason and conscience.

And those who tell me: "You can't pick and choose!!" can shove it! :p lol
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Reply #234 - August 23, 2015, 07:55 PM

Indeed. Those aspects of islam you love belong to you as much as anyone else.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
Reply #235 - August 23, 2015, 07:59 PM

I dont really like the label ex-muslim. I think I wasnt even a muslim.
Islam was forced on me. I did not choose it.

But they are meaningless labels in the end. They do not tell the whole story about a person as they only define certain aspects.
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Reply #236 - August 23, 2015, 08:01 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on August 23, 2015, 07:55 PM
Indeed. Those aspects of islam you love belong to you as much as anyone else.

Yes exactly - and I refuse to be chased away so the fuckwits can get rid of dissent - so they can continue to bully & control of everyone else.
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Reply #237 - August 23, 2015, 08:05 PM

Quote from: INcePtion on August 23, 2015, 07:59 PM
But they are meaningless labels in the end. They do not tell the whole story about a person...

Indeed!!

(I did a Khutbah about labels http://agnosticmuslimkhutbahs.blogspot.co.uk/2015/08/the-prophet-said-indeed-god-doesnt-look.html )
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Reply #238 - August 23, 2015, 08:18 PM

You should defo render it in a video
It's very beautifully written.
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Reply #239 - August 23, 2015, 08:51 PM

Thanks. I actually had a go last night recording my Shari'ah Khutbah but tbh it sounded better when I gave it live on the farm - I felt it lost some of the vigour recording it.

The problem is that I write the Khutbah's to be spoken in a Friday prayer setting - whereas Youtube videos are different. I used to write my video scripts specifically for the purpose of being a short video with pictures.

So not so sure what to do. I think Youtube videos should not be sermons as such... I don't know gonna give it more thought.
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