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 Topic: What type of muslim were you?

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  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #30 - June 13, 2016, 10:25 AM
    So as long as you think Islam is awesome, you are still an intelligent and honest person? OK.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #31 - June 13, 2016, 10:48 AM
    Quote from: Cornflower on June 13, 2016, 10:25 AM
    So as long as you think Islam is awesome, you are still an intelligent and honest person? OK.

    not what i was saying, i was referring to a certain and specific case, farhan qureshi actually

    have to say this a lot on here, which is interesting

    would it be controversial to suggest that maybeee... some of you have made a judgement on my views and character merely on the basis of my profession to love and adhere to islam?
    something which you simultaneously hound muslims for, with regards to your treatment on their part on the basis of your lack of belief
    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #32 - June 13, 2016, 10:57 AM
    Not from my part, for me it was the whole 'indicative' thing.

    Doesn't matter how much you try to whitewash it, you are hinting that certain types of Muslims lack the ability to think intelligently, possibly due to the type of Islam they followed, which left them ill equipped to deal with criticisms, and this may have led to their apostasy.

    Quite frankly I find the hint offensive.  Not your "profession to love and adhere to islam".

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #33 - June 13, 2016, 10:58 AM
    Quote from: ElRafa on June 13, 2016, 10:48 AM
    not what i was saying, i was referring to a certain and specific case,

    have to say this a lot on here, which is interesting

    would it be controversial to suggest that maybeee... some of you have made a judgement on my views and character merely on the basis of my profession to love and adhere to islam?

    ....................

    No ElRafa .,that is NOT controversial., that is possible.,

    The other possibility is ., Some of these believers of these faiths may consider that they are getting hounded because some folks  are questioning faiths... and their faith..

    That is the reason for discussions and debates .,  Muslims are people...Faiths are assumptions on some unknown  deity.,  Faiths and theirs books must be open to question and if some junk is there  in their books. throw them in to trash.,  but we can not do that to people as long as they are living within the premises of GOLDEN RULE, THEIR  FAITH IS IRRELEVANT  

    The buck stops at Golden Rule.....
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #34 - June 13, 2016, 11:00 AM
    Nah.I remember you, ElRafa. I'm happy  you're back, actually. The last time you were here, I was posting using the username happymurtad.

    As I was telling you then, the difference between you and us is really not all that great. The tone of this thread, however, seems to imply that you might be thinking that there is something unique about people who leave Islam that cause them to do so, rather than accepting that people leave Islam for a wide array of  reasons, none more or less valid than your own issues that have kept you in Islam.

    If you speak to us as though we are just human beings expressing our own views, which I'm fairly confident is how you view us deep down inside, then I'd bet you'd get a better reception. Trying to "figure us out" by lumping us into this category or that is probably going to continue to get you a similar reaction.
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #35 - June 13, 2016, 11:07 AM
    Quote from: BerberElla on June 13, 2016, 10:57 AM
    Not from my part, for me it was the whole 'indicative' thing.

    Doesn't matter how much you try to whitewash it, you are hinting that certain types of Muslims lack the ability to think intelligently, possibly due to the type of Islam they followed, which left them ill equipped to deal with criticisms, and this may have led to their apostasy.

    Quite frankly I find the hint offensive.  Not your "profession to love and adhere to islam".



    Excuse me.
    im saying i came here with sincerity and a hypothesis, one presented to me by several of my teachers
    that literalist schools and salafis tend to have a higher percentage of apostasy, i can link an example of a prominent islamic figure asserting the same thing

    and you've invented this hint because you automatically believe me to be the kind of person who makes such assumptions

    because im a muslim
    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #36 - June 13, 2016, 11:11 AM
    Quote from: ibn Bilal on June 13, 2016, 11:00 AM
    Nah.I remember you, ElRafa. I'm happy  you're back, actually. The last time you were here, I was posting using the username happymurtad.

    As I was telling you then, the difference between you and us is really not all that great. The tone of this thread, however, seems to imply that you might be thinking that there is something unique about people who leave Islam that cause them to do so, rather than accepting that people leave Islam for a wide array of  reasons, none more or less valid than your own issues that have kept you in Islam.

    If you speak to us as though we are just human beings expressing our own views, which I'm fairly confident is how you view us deep down inside, then I'd bet you'd get a better reception. Trying to "figure us out" by lumping us into this category or that is probably going to continue to get you a similar reaction.


    as i said, i think this is an assumption made by some here due to past examples
    i never intended this, i feel there's tension here because i get the sense of being lumped too by some,
    so its perhaps mutual
    would you agree this happens?
    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #37 - June 13, 2016, 11:16 AM
    Quote from: ElRafa on June 13, 2016, 11:07 AM
    Excuse me.
    im saying i came here with sincerity and a hypothesis, one presented to me by several of my teachers
    that literalist schools and salafis tend to have a higher percentage of apostasy, i can link an example of a prominent islamic figure asserting the same thing

    and you've invented this hint because you automatically believe me to be the kind of person who makes such assumptions

    because im a muslim



    How can I invent something that you keep repeating?   wacko

    Also, you have actually stated the thing I have an issue with, whereas at no stage have I hinted that you being a Muslim is an issue for me.

    If anyone is inventing hints here, it's you. 
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #38 - June 13, 2016, 11:20 AM
    Quote from: ElRafa on June 12, 2016, 12:47 PM
    My hypothesis is that salafis apostasise the most of all groups,
    -they dont have the tools to deal with contentions like the other schools which engage with philosophy,
    -also because they have no understanding of the inward dimensions of islam
    yani, many later come to view the practice of islam as a pointless obedience to a set of inexplicable rules

    Thats why i say A salafi could study aqeedah their whole life, but a smart non muslim could easily make him or her a murtad in two weeks...





    Quote from: ElRafa on June 12, 2016, 12:48 PM
    that the individual hasn't really gone that deep into their examination of islamic sciences


    Certain types of Muslims lack the tools to fully understand Islam.

    This means that SMART non muslims can make them leave Islam.

    Inventing hints....yea, sure.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #39 - June 13, 2016, 11:34 AM
    Quote from: ElRafa on June 13, 2016, 11:07 AM
    Excuse me.
    im saying i came here with sincerity and a hypothesis, one presented to me by several of my teachers
    that literalist schools and salafis tend to have a higher percentage of apostasy, i can link an example of a prominent islamic figure asserting the same thing
    and you've invented this hint because you automatically believe me to be the kind of person who makes such assumptions
    because im a muslim


    Do they have any hard data on that? Or is it just the usual religulous "I really believe it, thus it must be true" -talk?
    Since apostasy is considered a capital offence in much of Islam (and certainly a justification for harassment, social exclusion and violence) the honest statistical foundation for your teacher's claim is probably not impressive.

    Religiuos groups have a long tradition for insisting that "the others" are wrong/evil/stupid/led astray/tools of the devil. All just based on the single point, that they do not agree.
    And the great entertainment is, that they're not able to see that the arguments they use, apply equally well to themselves.

    So far I think you have implied, that those who apostatise "followed the wrong version" and "they were a bit dumb".
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #40 - June 13, 2016, 12:20 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on June 13, 2016, 11:20 AM
    Certain types of Muslims lack the tools to fully understand Islam.

    This means that SMART non muslims can make them leave Islam.

    Inventing hints....yea, sure.


    i mentioned it as one of the options, amongst many others,

    and yeah i think a salafi doesn't have the tools to deal with comparative religion, they can't problematize creationism and darwinism, literalism with empiricism, and have no concept of the development of modern morality and philosophy, because many of their teachers don't delve into that, they shy away from topics, discouraging them
    furthermore many do not endorse and some even negate spirituality,
    and it turns out, some of the few respondents professed to being salafi inclined, although not all
    which is why i also said
    if you read

    "just like people convert for many reasons, people leave for many reasons"

    if anything my statements are more critical more about salafi mentalities
    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #41 - June 13, 2016, 12:22 PM
    Quote from: Ursus on June 13, 2016, 11:34 AM
    Do they have any hard data on that? Or is it just the usual religulous "I really believe it, thus it must be true" -talk?
    Since apostasy is considered a capital offence in much of Islam (and certainly a justification for harassment, social exclusion and violence) the honest statistical foundation for your teacher's claim is probably not impressive.

    Religiuos groups have a long tradition for insisting that "the others" are wrong/evil/stupid/led astray/tools of the devil. All just based on the single point, that they do not agree.
    And the great entertainment is, that they're not able to see that the arguments they use, apply equally well to themselves.

    So far I think you have implied, that those who apostatise "followed the wrong version" and "they were a bit dumb".


    which is why i came here to ask, to get an idea if there was any truth behind it

    and no there are brilliant salafi ideologues who i respect, im here to prove or disprove whether theres a correlation between salafism and apostasy,


    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #42 - June 13, 2016, 12:53 PM
    Quote from: ElRafa on June 13, 2016, 12:22 PM
    which is why i came here to ask, to get an idea if there was any truth behind it

    and no there are brilliant salafi ideologues who i respect, im here to prove or disprove whether theres a correlation between salafism and apostasy, 


    So what did you find in this place ElRafa? is there any correlation between  salafism and apostasy?  I am sure you know well that  salafi Muslims are so-called ultra-conservatives   within Sunni Islam.  And do you think that  there are multiple strands of Salafī Islam?
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #43 - June 13, 2016, 12:53 PM
    Quote from: ElRafa on June 13, 2016, 11:11 AM
    as i said, i think this is an assumption made by some here due to past examples
    i never intended this, i feel there's tension here because i get the sense of being lumped too by some,
    so its perhaps mutual
    would you agree this happens?



    Of course that is a possibility. But you must understand that this "hypothesis" is nothing new to us.

    We've heard just about all the reasons Muslim "experts" can give as to why we leave Islam, and we're familiar with the fact that in most cases, these reasons are put forth in order to deflect valid criticism of the religion.

    Whether it be that we were too literal in our application of the faith,  or that we were never really religious to begin with,  or that we never really studied Islam, or that we studied it too much, or that we were abused by Muslims in our lives, or that we simply wanted to live like non-Muslims,  we've heard all the novel hypotheses before. Some of them may contain elements of truth as it pertains to some of us, while others are way off.

    When a Muslim comes along having had this eureka moment because they've suddenly figured us out, many of us can't help but roll our eyes and tell you we've seen this rerun episode already.
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #44 - June 13, 2016, 01:12 PM
    If you have a true interest in empirical science on the subject of apostasy, you could consider going into that part of literature which is not steeped in religious bias.

    Phil Zuckerman has done quite a bit of research, and interviewed apostates.
    https://www.amazon.com/Faith-No-More-People-Religion/dp/019024884X

    As far as I remember, he has done most of his work with christian apostates, but the principles are very likely to be the same.
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #45 - June 13, 2016, 01:44 PM
    Quote from: ElRafa on June 13, 2016, 11:07 AM
    Excuse me.
    im saying i came here with sincerity and a hypothesis, one presented to me by several of my teachers
    that literalist schools and salafis tend to have a higher percentage of apostasy, i can link an example of a prominent islamic figure asserting the same thing



    They should of also put forward that people are capable of leaving a fundamentalist interpretation only to join a moderate, liberal, spiritual and/or mysticism (etc) based view rather than dropping a religion completely. They presented a false dilemma due to being oblivious that people can also dismiss the core tenets of a religion, orthodoxy, along the way.
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #46 - June 13, 2016, 02:02 PM
    Quote from: bogart on June 13, 2016, 01:44 PM
    They should of also put forward that people are capable of leaving a fundamentalist interpretation only to join a moderate, liberal, spiritual and/or mysticism (etc) based view rather than dropping a religion completely. They presented a false dilemma due to being oblivious that people can also dismiss the core tenets of a religion, orthodoxy, along the way.


    They did note that actually, that many also go into mysticism and spirituality

    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #47 - June 13, 2016, 02:03 PM
    Quote from: bogart on June 13, 2016, 01:44 PM
    They should of also put forward that people are capable of leaving a fundamentalist interpretation only to join a moderate, liberal, spiritual and/or mysticism (etc) based view rather than dropping a religion completely. They presented a false dilemma due to being oblivious that people can also dismiss the core tenets of a religion, orthodoxy, along the way.

    And that moderates can go extreme.

    "Fundamentalists" were actually a label taken by christians, who considered mainstream religion to be too watered down and out of focus with the "true biblical values".
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #48 - June 13, 2016, 02:06 PM
    Quote from: ibn Bilal on June 13, 2016, 12:53 PM
    Of course that is a possibility. But you must understand that this "hypothesis" is nothing new to us.

    We've heard just about all the reasons Muslim "experts" can give as to why we leave Islam, and we're familiar with the fact that in most cases, these reasons are put forth in order to deflect valid criticism of the religion.

    Whether it be that we were too literal in our application of the faith,  or that we were never really religious to begin with,  or that we never really studied Islam, or that we studied it too much, or that we were abused by Muslims in our lives, or that we simply wanted to live like non-Muslims,  we've heard all the novel hypotheses before. Some of them may contain elements of truth as it pertains to some of us, while others are way off.

    When a Muslim comes along having had this eureka moment because they've suddenly figured us out, many of us can't help but roll our eyes and tell you we've seen this rerun episode already.



    i didnt have any moment of such, it was just a theory i came here to try and prove or disprove,
    also sincerely where should i go to see this valid criticism of the religion?
    can you recommend a book or someone who can list some of the points
    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #49 - June 13, 2016, 02:12 PM
    Quote from: ElRafa on June 13, 2016, 02:06 PM
    .......
    also sincerely where should i go to see this valid criticism of the religion?
    can you recommend a book or someone who can list some of the points...........


     

    ElRafa  click on that guy's  face., hit his face with mouse..  Cheesy   it will take you to a link and read what is in it to start with..  by the way Hassan is a Muslim.,and I can safely say He is the best Muslim guy you  could ever come across  in your life..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #50 - June 13, 2016, 02:37 PM
    Quote from: lua on June 13, 2016, 02:42 AM
    He's saying evidence doesn't apply here. He's being fair and saying it's his personal beliefs and this speaks to him and he could be wrong. This is how religion should be done.


    After which we moved on to my own reasoning for leaving faith. Lack of evidence. Which I clarified didn't need to be empirical in nature.

    I have no problem with his own personal beliefs.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #51 - June 13, 2016, 06:01 PM
    Quote
    Quote from: asbie on June 13, 2016, 02:37 PM
    After which we moved on to my own reasoning for leaving faith. Lack of evidence.

    Quote
    I have no problem with his own personal beliefs.



    well that is what Quran  says .,   "My belief is mine your belief  is yours "

    so asbie ., keeping that Quran  in mind and keeping these SHARIA COMPLAINT girls in mind






    DO YOU THINK THAT YOU CAN GIVE SMALL CHANCE  that you can get back to the faith again ??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #52 - June 13, 2016, 07:17 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on June 13, 2016, 02:12 PM

    ElRafa  click on that guy's  face., hit his face with mouse..  Cheesy   it will take you to a link and read what is in it to start with..  by the way Hassan is a Muslim.,and I can safely say He is the best Muslim guy you  could ever come across  in your life..



    Here's the correct link Yeeze   https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=my+ordeal+with+the+quran+and+god+in+the+quran
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #53 - June 13, 2016, 07:36 PM
    Sunni Hanbali. I was hafidhal-Quran, though not by choice. Most of what I followed was what my parents believed to be right and for most of my life I had little passion for religion. A few years before I stopped practising I was an avid debater and defender of Islam, though I used to pick and choose what I liked from different teachings and didn't identify with a particular school of thought.
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #54 - June 13, 2016, 10:17 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on June 13, 2016, 06:01 PM


    well that is what Quran  says .,   "My belief is mine your belief  is yours "

    so asbie ., keeping that Quran  in mind and keeping these SHARIA COMPLAINT girls in mind


    DO YOU THINK THAT YOU CAN GIVE SMALL CHANCE  that you can get back to the faith again ??


    lolwut? I don't know if that's a a real question, or not. Grin
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #55 - June 14, 2016, 08:40 PM
    Quote from: ElRafa on June 13, 2016, 02:02 PM
    They did note that actually, that many also go into mysticism and spirituality




    Was it in regards to a form of Islam which follows either or? Both terms are not unique to Islam so I want clarification regarding the terms they are using. Thanks

    Quote from: Ursus on June 13, 2016, 02:03 PM
    And that moderates can go extreme.

    "Fundamentalists" were actually a label taken by christians, who considered mainstream religion to be too watered down and out of focus with the "true biblical values".


    Yes they can.

    Literalism, revival and resurgence of the original sources, etc. Same reaction just a different basis than Christian fundamentalism.
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #56 - June 14, 2016, 08:47 PM
    Quote from: ElRafa on June 13, 2016, 01:01 AM


    he might have been false, and it doesn't matter what argument i come up with, you'd find some form of refutation and a counter point of your own just for a more learned muslim to have the response already prepared, and its back and forth like a perpetual tennis match
    that's how comparative religion goes, a selection of the same dot points wheeled out over and over again





    That isn't comparative religion, its apologetics and counter-apologetics
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #57 - June 14, 2016, 10:50 PM
    sunni muslim. I still describe myself as a muslim on forms etc. not sure why really. I guess its just easier.
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #58 - June 14, 2016, 11:03 PM
    hell puts me of islam. i'm sure we're not going to be fried in hot oil. infact its insulting to think a being who could create the universe would stoop so low.

    and heaven is just boring. when I die I want to be able to talk to god. my first words will be how did you do all this. show me! why did you do it? what were you thinking??? i'd love to have a chat with god.

    houses made of gold? lakes of milk and honey? you can keep them.
  • What type of muslim were you?
     Reply #59 - June 14, 2016, 11:04 PM
    frying tonight

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nike7BNrJ5A
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