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Theme Changer

 Topic: 'Yeh but you're a girl'

 (Read 39433 times)
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  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #30 - April 21, 2014, 03:24 AM
    Lol I have to agree with Wiselyskeptical  Cheesy
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #31 - April 21, 2014, 05:19 AM
    I guess it must be a muslim thing because most of us are from different cultures and still have the exact same stories.  Common denominator Islam.

    One day while starting college I decided to visit a friend who had moved away for college for two days.   I knew I was pushing it but I was fed up.   I rented a car, packed my bag.   

    At first I think my mother thought I wasnt serious.  When she saw me leaving she threw a fit. She kept talking about how I would get raped. She literally cried, tried to block the door.

    The neighbors who were I am assuming south asian looked on in amazement.   My father at first was in shock that my mother would get this crazy.  I mean she also hit me a couple times.   I however, felt the need to comfort her bc she was acting hella crazy and I was worried that she might jump off the balcony to her death or something.

    Then my father got his wits and also decided to yell at me, but he could only get out for the sake of your mothers sanity please get back in the house.

    I didnt, it was an ok trip.   It didnt help my enjoyment knowing what I would have to come home to.   I kept getting calls while on vacation from my mom saying how I had shamed her, that she would return to Somalia (secretly I was kinda hoping she would  dance of course she lied  Cry ).  My sister telling me to come home, that I had made my point.

    If I ever have children I swear I will be kind, and loving.  You cant help but love your parents but I feel like Somali parents only love you in so far as you do what they want you to do.  If you even try to establish a life on your own they take it as an offense against them.   There is no such thing as unconditional love with them.   Its not like I was even doing bad things.

    I feel like I should tape their tantrums and post it on youtube.  The grief I got for wanting my own room was another hell I do not wish to visit on anyone.
    Oh my Christopher Hitchens its a fihrrrrrrrrrrrr
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #32 - April 21, 2014, 05:51 AM
    I don't know if this fits, but I don't like how gender roles have become even involved in career decision making. Last year, there were no women in my Physics class, even though the Biology and Chemistry classes had more women. I don't know entirely but I feel like that women are not encouraged to do Physics or Engineering at all and the result is that they're male-dominated fields. Also I feel that women are discouraged for higher education in the form of Master's and PhD, and this especially happens in a religious society where the women's duty is housekeeping. There are few female science PhD graduates.

    It's a shame. Basically 50% of humanity is told to not be ambitious in life.
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #33 - April 21, 2014, 07:12 AM
    Just had to say that the "this is culture" excuse isnt't valid. What the problem is here is patriarchy, a social system that will alway generate inequality and suffering for some "weak" men and (all) women in particular. Unfortunately, Islam is inherently patriarchal and is filled with religious texts that not only supports ideas about female subjugation, misogyny etc, but also makes it impossible to rectify the problem if you are to stay true to the faith.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #34 - April 21, 2014, 12:35 PM
    Quote from: Cornflower on April 21, 2014, 07:12 AM
    .........Islam is inherently patriarchal and is filled with religious texts that not only supports ideas about female subjugation, misogyny etc, but also makes it impossible to rectify the problem if you are to stay true to the faith..............

    let me add this stuff here .. for young Muslimah

    1). Role Models for Muslim Women

    2). Muslimah Role Models

    3). Who are my Daughter’s Role Models?

    4). THE ROLE MODELS FOR A MUSLIM WOMAN By M. Riaz Khan, PhD

    well that is how you brain wash little girls.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzUQfBgQEMA

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY6rxl0GnAQ

    scoundrels of Islam...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #35 - April 21, 2014, 12:41 PM
    Umm Salamah, I kept hearing about how that was THE GREATEST LOVE STORY OF ALL TIME
    http://idealwoman.org/2012/the-story-of-hadhrat-umm-salamahradi-allahu-anha/

    Because she lost the love of her life and then was decreed to marry the prophet. At first when I heard the story I thought o wow how amazing, then I started thinking, her husband was the love of her life, what if she didnt love the prophet the same way, what if she never got over her husband and married the prophet. How do we know that its such an impressive love stories...

    *shrugs*
    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #36 - April 21, 2014, 12:47 PM
    What love story? Her husband died "for the sake of allah" and left 4 children fatherless. She lost her children when re-marrying, which she did becayse she could literally not decline the Prophet's proposal. Until then she had turned down every single one, even Abu Bakr and Umar. I see no love story there except if I use a great ammount of imagination and sugar-coating. I think Umm Salamah is the second worst "love story", with Aishah and Safia sharing first place.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #37 - April 21, 2014, 01:08 PM
    I was told by several people to read the dua of Umm salama after my divorce....

    'To find a better husband'

    coz thats what my life is all about right, finding a husband, being married....
    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #38 - April 21, 2014, 01:19 PM
    My husband used to brag in the beginning of our marriage that he made a dua for guidance about me after we met and that God must have guided us together...This was before he started thinking that I was slowly dragging him to the fire.
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #39 - April 21, 2014, 01:22 PM
     Cheesy
    Tell him thats gods will too  Wink
    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #40 - April 21, 2014, 01:24 PM
    Impossible! My husband's God would never do that to him! Grin
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #41 - April 21, 2014, 01:29 PM
    its a test of course Wink
    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #42 - April 21, 2014, 02:12 PM
    I think this treating sons like little princes is more a Desi/Arab thing than a Muslim thing. We don’t have that dynamic in my family and I don’t think I’ve observed it in other similar families. Xiis? Any other CEMBers who can weigh in? I might just have a relatively egalitarian family or be sheltered or something. I’ve seen it in the families we interact with. It’s very obvious that the boys get treated a whole lot better than the girls and there’s a lot of casual DV. I agree with what three said upthread about this creating entitled bratty men (probably why there’s so much DV).

    There’s definitely a strong son preference in the culture in the sense that people want to have lots of sons and having lots of daughters and no sons is considered very unfortunate. For instance, my mum told me about one asshole who took pity on her when he found out she’d had a second girl.

    I also think there’s some truth to what scamper_22 said about girls being less willing to rebel. Is that because girls know implicitly that the consequences would be harsher or boys are just more prone to rebellion?
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #43 - April 21, 2014, 02:52 PM
    Well just saying that males more often rebel than girls and that's it is very over-simplifying. There's a reason why girls don't rebel, and why sons more often do. I don't like sweeping generalizations in general (no pun intended), but if we actually analyze how boys and girls are raised differently it becomes pretty apparent why this is the case in so many cultures.

    Girls are taught from the very start to please and be "good" while the focus on boys lies more on achievements and being "independent" and "responsible". Notions about femininity vs masculinity are very different, and if this is the case in countries where gender equality is ingrained in society both culturally (during the last 50 years or so) and legally (even though no society is perfect), then what about cultures and societies that are still heavily influenced by patriarchal and/or misogynist structures? I just don't buy it. Males are permitted to be "rough" and "wild" (boys will be boys, remember) while girls have to be gentle and compliant. I would dare any of you to imagine how a "typical boy" behaves and then replace the boy with a girl. A daughters honor is far more important than that of the sons, and I think that this is actually true even for Somali culture Wink 

    So yes, of course boys are sometimes more rebellious than girls but that's because the different values they are raised with as well as the fact that boys are given room for rebellion on a whole different level than girls. If we look at Sweden where gender equality has become more "dominant", and where the differences between raising boys and girls have diminished during the last 50 years or so, the differences between girls and boys in terms of teenage rebellion etc is not that different. I would say there is no difference at all, to be honest.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #44 - April 21, 2014, 03:58 PM
    Well, I'm not disputing that if you change society and boys and girls are both raised to be 'equal' in all ways and genetics proves to be equal in all ways, then you might get equal results.

    However, as you say, girls of such cultures are not raised to be independent and responsible and achievement oriented. The result is that such a persona is not likely to be treated as deserving of that 'freedom'. Perhaps validly so. Such a person would be treated as a child or 'treasure'. It's a bit of a chicken and egg problem there. It doesn't really change the reality that most of the girls don't rebel to the same extent. It might be because rebelling is less tolerated. Or it might be that they are conditioned to be good girls. Either way, those girls as they are are there partially because they refuse to rebel and take the social costs.

    A lot of this applies to guys as well. Some guys are taken on to be the main caregivers of the parents. That is their role and many accept this role even if they don't like their parents. But others rebel in that capacity as well. Or guys who feel they need to be the provider of the household... even to their own detriment...


    Lastly, just some food for though.
    "Just had to say that the "this is culture" excuse isnt't valid. What the problem is here is patriarchy, a social system that will alway generate inequality and suffering for some "weak" men and (all) women in particular. "

    If you think what you call the patriarchy only generates inequality for some 'weak' men and all women, I think you should really revisit that by the numbers. Whatever rulers you think existed in these cultures, the vast majority of men didn't really benefit from anything. Maybe some rich nobles and leaders, but that is not the vast majority of men. The vast majority of men were out working in the field, in the mines, being forced into military service, working 16 hour days to 'provide' for their family as that is their manly duty. As silly as you may think that was, those men weren't benefiting much from this arrangement. I know I'd rather be provided for and take care of the home if it was back in the day Tongue

    I don't know how you think being forced to work long crappy dangerous jobs is somehow empowering to the vast majority of men.


  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #45 - April 21, 2014, 05:02 PM
    Al alethia, i knew a lot of somali families and yes they do prefer to have girl babies before boys which i thought sounded refreshing until i realised why, it was so they could help mum clean and cook for the next children born : )  ive also see in somali families the sisters cook and serve their brothers.. But overall i think somali women are pretty strong in their communities..   

    Hey i forgot i listened to this radio show years ago about the role of women in different cultures, this Phd student had done this study to find the countries where women had the highest status, he went to every single country and observed, his conclusions were that two places women were almost equal, one surprisingly was somalia, the other was either sweden or switzerland, not sure what to make of it..  : )

    x
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #46 - April 21, 2014, 05:21 PM
    Quote from: scamper_22 on April 21, 2014, 03:58 PM
    Lastly, just some food for though.
    "Just had to say that the "this is culture" excuse isnt't valid. What the problem is here is patriarchy, a social system that will alway generate inequality and suffering for some "weak" men and (all) women in particular. "

    If you think what you call the patriarchy only generates inequality for some 'weak' men and all women, I think you should really revisit that by the numbers. Whatever rulers you think existed in these cultures, the vast majority of men didn't really benefit from anything. Maybe some rich nobles and leaders, but that is not the vast majority of men. The vast majority of men were out working in the field, in the mines, being forced into military service, working 16 hour days to 'provide' for their family as that is their manly duty. As silly as you may think that was, those men weren't benefiting much from this arrangement. I know I'd rather be provided for and take care of the home if it was back in the day Tongue

    I don't know how you think being forced to work long crappy dangerous jobs is somehow empowering to the vast majority of men.





    Divide and conquer. The old paradigm of a new hierarchy.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #47 - April 21, 2014, 05:58 PM
    When I refer to rebellion, I don’t necessarily mean rebellion in a positive sense. I actually mean it in a negative sense; dropping out of school, hanging out with petty criminals, that kind of thing. I know that in the general population here, boys tend to drop out of school at higher rates than girls and are also more prone to criminality so it goes beyond one culture. I think that whatever it is about men that predisposes them more towards criminality and risk-taking behaviours in general (alcoholism, drugs, etc) is the same thing that makes them more prone to rebellion, be it nature or, nurture, or a combination of both.

    Quote
    A daughters honor is far more important than that of the sons...


    I’m not sure about the concept of “honour” as such but there is a general view that a girl gone wild is much worse than a boy gone wild, purely because of the risk of pregnancy, which will result in either abortion (shame) or raising an illegitimate child (epic shame). Of course, in some families, this translates into tighter restrictions on girls but there’d still be shame heaped on a man who impregnated someone or did something “dishonourable”. Most of the kids who get “deported” (essentially dumped in the motherland for bad behaviour in the hopes that they’ll be reformed) by their families are rebellious teenage boys so I don’t think boys have as much license as they do in some other cultures. An entire family wouldn’t be ostracized or disgraced for having one black sheep – whether it was a male or female – but yes, a girl becoming “corrupted” is seen as more tragic than a boy going down the same path.
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #48 - April 21, 2014, 06:06 PM
     It’s often joked that son preference is unreasonable because women tend to be the ones who look after their parents in old age and generally prove to be more “useful” (the whole "a daughter is a daughter for life, a son is a son til he gets a wife" meme), so at least they’re self-aware about it Tongue

    In LOTS of families, the oldest sister is like a de facto maid/slave/nanny while the mother basically lounges around or socializes.
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #49 - April 21, 2014, 06:18 PM
    "weak" men = men who do not belong to the privileged class of men (can further be discussed in order for a definition, but I really don't feel like doing that so let us keep it like it is Smiley ). Just a note: a hierarchical pyramid is abut levels, but the fact is that for every male who is one step down in the pyramid, has women who hare even less than him. Women can also climb up the patriarchal hierarchical pyramid if they agree to reproducing the patriarchal structures, but they will always be "under" the men at the top.
    Patriarchy isn't good or beneficial for the majority of humankind in the long run, whether that be for men or women. However, women who do not climb up the patriarchal hierarchy will always be under the vast majority of men in society, that is how patriarchy works.
    So yes, you are absolutely right. Men were/are "out there" working to provide for their whole (extended) family, but they don't do it for free. In return the women of the family must be obedient and compliant as payment for their master's so merciful provision. That is why we have phenomena like child marriages, forced marriages, honor culture, sexism etc etc etc that mainly, but in no way exclusively, affects women.
    Patriarchy is not a "natural" state for human civilization, it was a result of the agricultural revolution. Hopefully, humans have reached a point of intellectual and technological development which provides us of all possible and necessary means to get rid of this highly disadvantageous and unequal (for the majority of people) social system.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #50 - April 21, 2014, 10:41 PM
    Quote from: scamper_22 on April 21, 2014, 03:06 AM
    There's a lot here, and yes it sucks.
    So I do empathize.
    On the other hand, culturally, you don't have to support yourself and go to work to support and if you work, you get to keep your money and spend it how you like.

    The other issue is that girls tend to not want to risk being socially stigmatized more than guys.
    A lot of girls just don't push the line. They want their parents to not dislike them or think poorly of them.
    More guys are willing to stay out late and get yelled at and disobey their parents.
    Is it more culturally acceptable for guys to be disobedient? Partly. I also think partly guys are more likely to not care if they break social bonds.

    In as much as the culture is to blame, this one is also quite huge in my view.
    I grew up in a rather strict household, and yeah, I disobeyed and got yelled at, got hit a few times... it was the price of change. I can say the same for most of the guys I knew and this again crosses cultures as well.
    The girls, most when they did things, did so behind their parents back, sneaky, so there was less outright defiance.
    A lot of girls aren't willing to do that and risk being disliked or ostracized. They would sneak out, rant, go crazy, but just didn't outright do what the hell they wanted.

    Again, I know the rules really suck for girls culturally and what not.
    I'm just tossing this in there as a contribution.





    I want to say that any cultural expectations that girls will be provided for go straight out the window in the case I have laid out of the entitled, spoiled, immature, and irresponsible man. This sort of man does not end up providing properly for a wife.

    I used those words to describe a man who was negatively affected by godlike treatment during development, not to describe a phase of life a person is going through in adolescence or something.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #51 - April 22, 2014, 03:35 AM
    I dont know what Somali families you guys grew up in but most of the ones I knew and my own family let the boys get away with anything while the girls not so much

    Look at the above story.   My cousins took a trip to Florida and my aunt, mom etc never made a big deal.  Just let it happen.   When I get guilt trips, physical abuse, and threats to return home.

    I am dealing with being the one left with the old folks right now, which is why its harder for me to pack it in and get the fug out.

    I am in the process of leaving the home I bought, so they're arnt destitute.   All the while trying to save up so I can leave with enough to take care of myself and with a new degree.

    I hate how in Somali culture older family members are basically left with one unlucky sibling to take care of them FOREVER!  While everyone else moves on to build a life.  Hopefully, I will break that cycle soon.

    Oh my Christopher Hitchens its a fihrrrrrrrrrrrr
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #52 - April 22, 2014, 04:30 AM
    OK a company came to my university that gave training for working in customer care services. The lecturer said that jobs at call centres are good for women because all they have to do is sit in the AC and talk! At this a guy laughed out loud. My blood was boiling then.

    My dad always taught me to live boldly but one day he regretted that I am not much concerned about my looks at home, and that he was expecting that as I was a girl I should dress and behave like a doll. Even my parents say that hot temper doesn't befit a girl. Another guy tells me that women shouldn't live liberally but modestly. That idiot!

    One of my female classmates always nudge me to cook at home, She holds this notion that all women can and should cook. This is the only way she can win the hearts of others. I mean seriously? I don't cook but I don't have haters either.
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #53 - April 22, 2014, 10:48 AM
    Quote from: Xiis on April 22, 2014, 03:35 AM
    I dont know what Somali families you guys grew up in but most of the ones I knew and my own family let the boys get away with anything while the girls not so much

    Look at the above story.   My cousins took a trip to Florida and my aunt, mom etc never made a big deal.  Just let it happen.   When I get guilt trips, physical abuse, and threats to return home.

    I am dealing with being the one left with the old folks right now, which is why its harder for me to pack it in and get the fug out.

    I am in the process of leaving the home I bought, so they're arnt destitute.   All the while trying to save up so I can leave with enough to take care of myself and with a new degree.

    I hate how in Somali culture older family members are basically left with one unlucky sibling to take care of them FOREVER!  While everyone else moves on to build a life.  Hopefully, I will break that cycle soon.




    Yes they are pretty overprotective of their girls true, but i find the somalis not so extreme in their religion as other cultures, they still enjoy their music, poetry and arts that are considered haram to others but what i do find extreme is dress code for women, most somali girls are forced to wear that very unflattering heavy hijab with thick socks and mans shoes lol, i tried to wear one once, i bought a brown one and i looked like a giant malteser lol never again..

    X
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #54 - April 22, 2014, 11:31 AM
    LOL @ “giant malteser”. Yeah, jilbabs and sandals with socks are ugly as heck.

    I did get some “you can’t wallow in this mess, you’re a girl!” type comments. I wasn’t really raised to serve others or be a people pleaser. Just to respect elders. I’d always been encouraged to get an education and be resourceful and independent; my parents are all about upward mobility. Other than gently suggesting I pray and the read the Quran every now and then, I don’t get any force or pressure to be more religious.
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #55 - April 22, 2014, 11:46 AM
    Quote from: Al-Alethia on April 22, 2014, 11:31 AM
    ........ my father, in particular, has always been all about sticking up for yourself, being assertive and fighting back

    ........My mum isn’t submissive to my dad and my parents didn’t raise us to be submissive. ........


    Well then you should be thankful to that "Abay Siti " of Somali women folks of 19th century Al-Alethia .  They incorporated  that STRONG FEMALE Somali tradition/culture which is a bedrock of Somali people in to their Islamic traditions/culture.

    your parents must have got it from your grand mothers and hey are teaching  same thing to their girls  that " Stand up and sticking up for yourself"  attitude.
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #56 - April 22, 2014, 11:58 AM
    Yeah i love the somalis,  most of my muslim friends were somali back in the day, great personalities, hilarious humour..  my only criticism was that they never integrated much with the other races.. Oh and the women would have random punch ups at the drop of a hat, even if they were like 60 lol... Somali women are incredibly beautiful too, infact they were voted the most beautiful women.. I was forever shocked when somali friends pulled off their heavy hijab what lay beneath (guys) is extreme beauty, and amazing figures.. I felt so ugly lol amongst their company.. 

    thats so funny about your parents wanting you to be a doctor, so typical somali theyre obsessed with their children becoming doctors, i found these comedy videos about that on the net, i will find later

    x
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #57 - April 22, 2014, 03:57 PM
    http://youtu.be/jkf7rJGTRbU  here's those somali comedy vids , Al alethian or was it xiis you will find your doc script at 6;15 lol my fav is at 6:20  with the somali ganstas in their long skirts, lol..

    http://youtu.be/oWKI2oax02U    i think you got to know somalis or be one to get this humor lol...


    mahadsanid salaam x

  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #58 - April 22, 2014, 04:23 PM
    I always felt a bit embarrassed and impressed every time I saw a Somali guy actually wear their traditional skirts. I like them Smiley
    I emerged myself in Somali culture for a while when I lived with an older Somali lady. She was so nice, I learnt to do a kick ass 'anjeera and hot sauce. She was so proud  Cheesy
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • 'Yeh but you're a girl'
     Reply #59 - April 22, 2014, 08:31 PM
    My papa has the view if your going to burn down a girls school, burn down a boys school too, girls should be the same as boys (comment sparked by the recent news in Africa)... I still doubt he would be fine with a girl doing all the shit he did as a man.
    "Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
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