How well do you know Islam?

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- Jack Torrance
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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #60 - November 08, 2008, 10:50 AM

Quote from: elle on November 08, 2008, 10:33 AM

Sorry, is this a debating group? I prefer not to debate but to discuss different points of views.

What's the diff between debating and discussing diff points of view?

Ha Ha.
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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #61 - November 08, 2008, 10:58 AM

One is a Challenge that has to be contradicted and the other is an exchange of views where the outcome could be an agreement or a draw or an agreement that there is a permanent difference of views, a victor is not the purpose of the discussion. The debate, by definition is confrontational.
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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #62 - November 08, 2008, 11:10 AM

Quote from: elle on November 08, 2008, 10:58 AM
One is a Challenge that has to be contradicted and the other is an exchange of views where the outcome could be an agreement or a draw or an agreement that there is a permanent difference of views, a victor is not the purpose of the discussion. The debate, by definition is confrontational.

What are you trying to achieve, you keep saying you're here to learn - but you must have some idea of where you're going with this?

Ha Ha.
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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #63 - November 08, 2008, 12:37 PM

Jack, let me tell you this: You have no idea who much I have learned about people and their views from my post, "Qur'anic Ambiguities Analysed." They have point out my editorial and grammatical errors, they have expressed their displeasure at many of the things I have said and I will react to it, positively.
(1) I have corrected most of the spelling and punctuation errors, most of it was from Islamic "quotations," and hence I am actually changing the quoted text that I did not write.
(2) I will shortly be revising my script material to conform to some of people's views and criticisms.

Now I call that learning by being criticised and doing something about it. It may still displease some but I am adjusting to their comments, some of it was not too kind. But I accept those views and will modify my writing accordingly. I have just set up my replacement HP laser printer and will be able to compare the two versions which may take some more editing.

If you do not recognise that that as accepting criticism, I do not know what else you expect me to do!
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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #64 - November 08, 2008, 01:08 PM

Quote from: elle on November 08, 2008, 10:58 AM
One is a Challenge that has to be contradicted and the other is an exchange of views where the outcome could be an agreement or a draw or an agreement that there is a permanent difference of views, a victor is not the purpose of the discussion. The debate, by definition is confrontational.

Have you seen the OED defs of debate, especially def 2 ?

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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #65 - November 08, 2008, 02:56 PM

I have deleted remarks that do not support my definition but link is available:

de·bate (d-bt)
v. de·bat·ed, de·bat·ing, de·bates
v.intr.
1. To consider something; deliberate.
2. To engage in argument by discussing opposing points
3. To engage in a formal discussion or argument. See Synonyms at discuss.
4. Obsolete To fight or quarrel.
v.tr.
1.
2.To dispute or argue about.
3.
4. Obsolete To fight or argue for or over.
n.
1. A discussion involveing opposing points; an argument.
2. Deliberation; consideration: passed the motion with little debate.
3. A formal contest of argument in which two opposing teams defend and attack a vigen proposition.
4. ObsoleteConflict;strife.
[Middle English debaten, from Old French debatre : de-, de- + battre,to beat;see batter1
de·batement n.
de·bater n.

debate
Noun
1.
2. a formal discussion, as in a parliament, in which opposing arguments are put forward
Verb
[-bating, -bated]
1.
2.
Noun   1.
argumentation, argument

2.   debate - the formal presentation of a stated proposition and the opposition to it (usually followed by a vote)
disputation, public debate
oral presentation, public speaking, speechmaking, speaking - delivering an address to a public audience; "people came to see the candidates and hear the speechmaking"
Verb   1.   debate - argue with one another; "We debated the question of abortion"; "John debated Mary"
deliberate, moot, debate, consider, turn over - think about carefully; weigh; "They considered the possibility of a strike"; "Turn the proposal over in your mind"
2.   debate - think about carefully; weigh; "They considered the possibility of a strike"; "Turn the proposal over in your mind"
deliberate, moot, consider, turn over
see - deliberate or decide; "See whether you can come tomorrow"; "let's see--which movie should we see tonight?"
premeditate - consider, ponder, or plan (an action) beforehand; "premeditated murder"
debate - argue with one another "We debated the question of abortion"; "John debated Mary"
wrestle - engage in deep thought, consideration, or debate; "I wrestled with this decision for years"
hash out, talk over, discuss - speak with others about (something); talk (something) over in detail; have a discussion; "We discussed our household budget"
think twice - consider and reconsider carefully; "Think twice before you have a child"
consider, study - give careful consideration to; "consider the possibility of moving"
3.   debate - discuss the pros and cons of an issue
deliberate

4.   debate -have an argument about something
argue, contend, fence
stickle - dispute or argue stubbornly (especially minor points)
spar - fight verbally; "They were sparring all night"
bicker, brabble, pettifog, squabble, quibble, niggle - argue over petty things; "Let's not quibble over pennies"
altercate, argufy, quarrel, scrap, dispute - have a disagreement over something; "We quarreled over the question as to who discovered America"; "These two fellows are always scrapping over something"
oppose - be against; express opposition to;; "We oppose the ban on abortion"
converse, discourse - carry on a conversation

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/debate

See it as you will.
- osmanthus
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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #66 - November 08, 2008, 08:21 PM

I have deleted remarks that do not support alternative and equally valid definitions.

Quote
de·bate (d-bt)
v. de·bat·ed, de·bat·ing, de·bates
v.intr.
1. To consider something; deliberate.

3. To engage in a formal discussion or argument. See Synonyms at discuss.

n.

2. Deliberation; consideration: passed the motion with little debate.

2. debate - think about carefully; weigh; "They considered the possibility of a strike"; "Turn the proposal over in your mind"

3. debate - discuss the pros and cons of an issue
deliberate

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/debate

See it as you will.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
- elle
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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #67 - November 08, 2008, 09:06 PM

It is all how anyone wishes to interpret it. I am conservative. I am not a liberal.
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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #68 - November 08, 2008, 09:11 PM

Well if you're a conservative I'd expect you to be a staunch supporter of the Oxford English Dictionary. There are few institutions more conservative than Oxford. That being said, it remains true that English is a complex language that offers many nuances to people fluent in it. Consequently many words have more than one accepted usage.

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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #69 - November 08, 2008, 09:28 PM

Quote from: elle on November 08, 2008, 02:56 PM
I have deleted remarks that do not support my definition but link is available:

de·bate (d-bt)
v. de·bat·ed, de·bat·ing, de·bates
v.intr.
1. To consider something; deliberate.
2. To engage in argument by discussing opposing points
3. To engage in a formal discussion or argument. See Synonyms at discuss.
4. Obsolete To fight or quarrel.
v.tr.
1.
2.To dispute or argue about.
3.
4. Obsolete To fight or argue for or over.
n.
1. A discussion involveing opposing points; an argument.
2. Deliberation; consideration: passed the motion with little debate.
3. A formal contest of argument in which two opposing teams defend and attack a vigen proposition.
4. ObsoleteConflict;strife.
[Middle English debaten, from Old French debatre : de-, de- + battre,to beat;see batter1
de·batement n.
de·bater n.

debate
Noun
1.
2. a formal discussion, as in a parliament, in which opposing arguments are put forward
Verb
[-bating, -bated]
1.
2.
Noun   1.
argumentation, argument

2.   debate - the formal presentation of a stated proposition and the opposition to it (usually followed by a vote)
disputation, public debate
oral presentation, public speaking, speechmaking, speaking - delivering an address to a public audience; "people came to see the candidates and hear the speechmaking"
Verb   1.   debate - argue with one another; "We debated the question of abortion"; "John debated Mary"
deliberate, moot, debate, consider, turn over - think about carefully; weigh; "They considered the possibility of a strike"; "Turn the proposal over in your mind"
2.   debate - think about carefully; weigh; "They considered the possibility of a strike"; "Turn the proposal over in your mind"
deliberate, moot, consider, turn over
see - deliberate or decide; "See whether you can come tomorrow"; "let's see--which movie should we see tonight?"
premeditate - consider, ponder, or plan (an action) beforehand; "premeditated murder"
debate - argue with one another "We debated the question of abortion"; "John debated Mary"
wrestle - engage in deep thought, consideration, or debate; "I wrestled with this decision for years"
hash out, talk over, discuss - speak with others about (something); talk (something) over in detail; have a discussion; "We discussed our household budget"
think twice - consider and reconsider carefully; "Think twice before you have a child"
consider, study - give careful consideration to; "consider the possibility of moving"
3.   debate - discuss the pros and cons of an issue
deliberate

4.   debate -have an argument about something
argue, contend, fence
stickle - dispute or argue stubbornly (especially minor points)
spar - fight verbally; "They were sparring all night"
bicker, brabble, pettifog, squabble, quibble, niggle - argue over petty things; "Let's not quibble over pennies"
altercate, argufy, quarrel, scrap, dispute - have a disagreement over something; "We quarreled over the question as to who discovered America"; "These two fellows are always scrapping over something"
oppose - be against; express opposition to;; "We oppose the ban on abortion"
converse, discourse - carry on a conversation

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/debate

See it as you will.

Yes, but that's my point. You don't have to be as combatative as that. Hows about OED2a
'consider, ponder (a matter)' and OED2b 'consider different sides of a question.' Much more convivial, eh?

Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #70 - November 09, 2008, 02:24 AM

Quote from: elle on November 06, 2008, 10:06 PM
Iggy, that is what I meant when I was referring to the system of education in an Islamic school, in particular a Madrassa. From a very young age, all devout Muslim families will want their children to learn about Islamic ways and the first step is to recite as much of the Qur'an as possible in Arabic. I could be even word and tone perfect, but without realizing the significance of what it means in real life. That is what I was inferring about Islamic education especially at the Primary and Middle school education. And most ordinary people in Pakistan and the Middle East only study in formal schools till the end of Middle schools as far as Islamic studies is concerned.

That, again, is a sweeping generalisation.

Yes it may be true in SOME cases, but in my case, I was constantly badgered to apply teachings to real life.

And also, where did you get the 'most ordinary people in Pakistan....only study in formal schools till the end of Middle schools as far as Islamic studies is concerned'

Most of my relatives/cousins studied Islamic studies well into further education. They were genuinely dedicated, and no I'm not 'defending Islam'.

By the way, there is no solid curriculum in an madrassa. There is no set way of interpreting the Quran, there's no set texts. There are hundreds of millions of sources, guides, interpretations and translations.
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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #71 - November 09, 2008, 01:00 PM

OK heartbomb, so you come from a educated or previleged family, but there are millions of Pakistanis out there who can barely read or write and live just above the subsistence level and they do not have the education. I am referring to the village Pakistani, not to the elite.
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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #72 - November 09, 2008, 01:39 PM

Quote from: elle on November 09, 2008, 01:00 PM
OK heartbomb, so you come from a educated or previleged family, but there are millions of Pakistanis out there who can barely read or write and live just above the subsistence level and they do not have the education. I am referring to the village Pakistani, not to the elite.

Actually no. Again you are making assumptions. I don't come from an educated nor a priviledged family. My parents aren't that educated, nor is my brother. We are far from elite.

As for village Pakistani families, I know about those too. The majority of my relatives live in rural Pakistan in virtual poverty. They scrape together their money and go to do further education. If they can't do that, they are still able to visit the mosque for their education - and yes, they know a lot about Islam from mingling with those relatives of theirs that are 'priviledged' or 'elite' enough to continue their education.

One of my uncles was stubborn, bent on sending his bright kid to an English medium school in Pakistan. They are poor as hell. My mother was so touched by his dedication to his son's education that she offered to contribute whatever she could every month towards his fees. He wanted his son to go to a good school so that he was not just limited to a madrassa. He considered pulling this child out of education because he could not afford it, but when all the relatives sat down and spoke about it, he realised what a grave mistake that would be.

I understand that poverty exists, of course it does. But it's wrong to assume that Muslim children grow up to be parrots. Not all of them do, I have met so many young Muslim children who are taught the application of the teachings of the prophet and the Quran into their own lives. They weren't exactly from elite families either.
- awais
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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #73 - November 09, 2008, 02:32 PM

elle, have you been to pakistan? if not, then please, stop making assumptions.

I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #74 - November 09, 2008, 08:25 PM

Quote from: elle on November 08, 2008, 12:37 PM
Jack, let me tell you this: You have no idea who much I have learned about people and their views from my post, "Qur'anic Ambiguities Analysed." They have point out my editorial and grammatical errors, they have expressed their displeasure at many of the things I have said and I will react to it, positively.
(1) I have corrected most of the spelling and punctuation errors, most of it was from Islamic "quotations," and hence I am actually changing the quoted text that I did not write.
(2) I will shortly be revising my script material to conform to some of people's views and criticisms.

Now I call that learning by being criticised and doing something about it. It may still displease some but I am adjusting to their comments, some of it was not too kind. But I accept those views and will modify my writing accordingly. I have just set up my replacement HP laser printer and will be able to compare the two versions which may take some more editing.

If you do not recognise that that as accepting criticism, I do not know what else you expect me to do!

It is okay, Jack will never produce any material or state any opinion. I believe he has a phoebia from being criticized because he was asked so many times to come out in the open and state his opinion and he always backed away. At best he will hide in the cornfields and ambush people who have the courage to come out in the open and make a statement. I congratulate you Elle on having the strength of character to stand out and make a statement about such a controversial subject.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #75 - November 09, 2008, 08:44 PM

Quote from: Baal on November 09, 2008, 08:25 PM
he was asked so many times to come out in the open and state his opinion and he always backed away.

Do you have a wet brain, Baal? Opinion on what?

Oh and talking about non-reply, what was your answer to the Obama question, I seem to recall you going all silent on that one.

Ha Ha.
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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #76 - November 09, 2008, 10:27 PM

Awais, have you lived there? I lived in India for 4 years so I can say that I am not ignorant about India and that environment but it may have changed a little. I doubt that India has changed all that much.
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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #77 - November 09, 2008, 10:29 PM

Awais, why do you assume I know nothing? Do I come across as that stupid?
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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #78 - November 09, 2008, 10:31 PM

Quote from: elle on November 09, 2008, 10:29 PM
Awais, why do you assume I know nothing? Do I come across as that stupid?

...

I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #79 - November 10, 2008, 01:01 AM

Elle, you were not speculating about India. You were speculating about Pakistan. A member who is intimately familiar with Pakistan corrected some of your misapprehensions. Nobody is currently disputing your knowledge of India.

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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #80 - November 10, 2008, 08:45 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on November 10, 2008, 01:01 AM
Elle, you were not speculating about India. You were speculating about Pakistan. A member who is intimately familiar with Pakistan corrected some of your misapprehensions. Nobody is currently disputing your knowledge of India.

Yeah but it's all the same round there isn't it?

Ha Ha.
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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #81 - November 10, 2008, 08:47 AM

Quote from: heartbomb on November 09, 2008, 01:39 PM
Quote from: elle on November 09, 2008, 01:00 PM
OK heartbomb, so you come from a educated or previleged family, but there are millions of Pakistanis out there who can barely read or write and live just above the subsistence level and they do not have the education. I am referring to the village Pakistani, not to the elite.

Actually no. Again you are making assumptions. I don't come from an educated nor a priviledged family. My parents aren't that educated, nor is my brother. We are far from elite.

As for village Pakistani families, I know about those too. The majority of my relatives live in rural Pakistan in virtual poverty. They scrape together their money and go to do further education. If they can't do that, they are still able to visit the mosque for their education - and yes, they know a lot about Islam from mingling with those relatives of theirs that are 'priviledged' or 'elite' enough to continue their education.

One of my uncles was stubborn, bent on sending his bright kid to an English medium school in Pakistan. They are poor as hell. My mother was so touched by his dedication to his son's education that she offered to contribute whatever she could every month towards his fees. He wanted his son to go to a good school so that he was not just limited to a madrassa. He considered pulling this child out of education because he could not afford it, but when all the relatives sat down and spoke about it, he realised what a grave mistake that would be.

I understand that poverty exists, of course it does. But it's wrong to assume that Muslim children grow up to be parrots. Not all of them do, I have met so many young Muslim children who are taught the application of the teachings of the prophet and the Quran into their own lives. They weren't exactly from elite families either.

Heartbomb, excellent English btw, that makes you quite special as far as Pakistan is concerned.

Heartbomb, you make it sound like people get a choice in the matter. They do not. School is free. By choice or by law, people want to send their kids to school. And often the school available is an islamic madrassa. It is just a matter if you are lucky and you have a decent school close by and not a madrassa.

And we all know how adamant those islamic Emirs are about making sure the school in their area is a madrassa. A little bit of violence in a village for couple years, and you end up with a madrassa for decades to come after the violence is long forgotten.

And your cousin that was sent to the English school. I am impressed by your family. But that is a logical fallacy you committed Heartbomb, you are appealing to the exception. How many brothers and sisters and cousins and neighbors did you cousin have that did not make it to the expensive English school? How about the rest of the kids in his building? I believe Elle was addressing the rest of the kids in the building HB.

In Egypt, we have 8400+ Azhar Madrassas with a very high class densities with most schools running Two shifts per day.

Over the last 30yrs we have poured Billions into those sh1tholes. The cream of the crap of those schools were granted entrance to the Azhar Universities (3 Fuckulties including a Science Faculty). 30 yrs and did we get a Nobel? (no), did we get a Scientific patent? (no) Just One? (no). Did we get any luminaries? (Check pictures below). The only thing we achieved is One of the deans is a woman, since some of the students are women and someone needs to talk to them. Last year I read about a woman who got a PhD because she proved that Honey is a great cure. How did she prove her thesis? She found all the references to honey in koran and hadith and sira. She used a Search Engine. She photocopied few labels from some honey she bought from the Supermarket and wrote down the ingredients. Allahu Akbar. She is now a Doctor. In Science. A Scientist. She did not even address the point that so many young people are getting killed because honey is a very heavy food that should not be given to certain illnesses and post-operations.

Here is the luminaries after that country poured Billions in resources into 8400 crap-houses:

This is Kareem currently in Jail, some times, the Azhar, in its quest to acquire the cream of the crap, it actually acquire some cream:

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #82 - November 10, 2008, 08:51 AM

Quote from: Jack Torrance on November 10, 2008, 08:45 AM
Quote from: osmanthus on November 10, 2008, 01:01 AM
Elle, you were not speculating about India. You were speculating about Pakistan. A member who is intimately familiar with Pakistan corrected some of your misapprehensions. Nobody is currently disputing your knowledge of India.

Yeah but it's all the same round there isn't it?

Seen one chapatti, seen 'em all.

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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #83 - November 10, 2008, 08:53 AM

Quote from: heartbomb on November 09, 2008, 02:24 AM
Most of my relatives/cousins studied Islamic studies well into further education. They were genuinely dedicated, and no I'm not 'defending Islam'.

I am very sorry to hear about such waste of talent and intellect. Instead of spending their time studying physics or accounting or sex or social science or philosophy.

The sad thing is, if you can achieve it, willing Obedience is so much more efficient then forced obedience.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #84 - November 10, 2008, 08:54 AM

Quote from: Baal on November 10, 2008, 08:47 AM
<major snippage>

Ummm, how does your post invalidate HB's post?

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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #85 - November 10, 2008, 09:35 AM

Baal, thank you for your compliment on my English. However, I have to clarify that I have spent the majority of my life in Britain and all of my education was completed in Britain itself.

Granted my family may seem like an exception, but just because we are educating the some of the children in our family, does not make us priviledged or elite. My family still put an emphasis on reciting the Quran and sticking to the Muslim crowd. As for the rest of the kids, what about them? Maybe they could afford it but their parents prefered to send them to a madrassa for some Islamic education. Maybe they wanted to send them to an Ahmadiyya institution where, from what I know, education is free and is taught in direct relation to how they live their lives and how they should apply the teachings to their own lives. As an Atheist, I don't necessarily agree that this is how they should be taught, but to make an assumption that they are just taught to recite the Quran without any knowledge of what it means, is incorrect.

I have to disagree with you on the compulsory education point you made. As long as a pupil is taken out of a state school and put into some form of education (religious, most probably) I don't think it's illegal. The religious education would, of course, come in the form of a Madrassa. Or, in my family's case, an Ahmaddiya institution.

As for Islamic studies, I still stick with the fact that they are emphasised highly in Pakistan from what I have been told by my cousins and close Pakistani friends. Even if they are Westernised (whom one of my Pakistani friends is, as an actor/model in Pakistan - which is a huge taboo in the Ahmaddiya sect, but that's besides the point since he is not an Ahmadi), they have completed a whole range of Islamic education and are very dedicated to their faith.
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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #86 - November 10, 2008, 10:08 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on November 10, 2008, 01:01 AM
Elle, you were not speculating about India. You were speculating about Pakistan. A member who is intimately familiar with Pakistan corrected some of your misapprehensions. Nobody is currently disputing your knowledge of India.

Do you mean that the way of life and environment is so different in Pakistan as northern India? There were Pakistanis living in India as well in those days and Pakistan was a part of India until Jinnah came along. Now look at it.
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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #87 - November 10, 2008, 10:20 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on November 10, 2008, 08:54 AM
Quote from: Baal on November 10, 2008, 08:47 AM
<major snippage>

Ummm, how does your post invalidate HB's post?

She appealed to the case of her cousin which is an exception.

She is also stating that somehow people who study islam actually understand islam. That is never the case. I have in toronto some friends, engineers and university graduates, who spend entire weekends sleeping over at mosques and still have no clue about islam. They get wasted on rituals and minutiae and vocabulary.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #88 - November 10, 2008, 10:26 AM

Quote from: Baal on November 10, 2008, 10:20 AM

She is also stating that somehow people who study islam actually understand islam. That is never the case.

I have in toronto some friends....

People who study islam don't understand it, okay. Right.

Dead people don't count as friends.

Ha Ha.
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Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #89 - November 10, 2008, 10:28 AM

Quote from: Baal on November 10, 2008, 10:20 AM
Quote from: osmanthus on November 10, 2008, 08:54 AM
Quote from: Baal on November 10, 2008, 08:47 AM
<major snippage>

Ummm, how does your post invalidate HB's post?

She appealed to the case of her cousin which is an exception.

She is also stating that somehow people who study islam actually understand islam. That is never the case. I have in toronto some friends, engineers and university graduates, who spend entire weekends sleeping over at mosques and still have no clue about islam. They get wasted on rituals and minutiae and vocabulary.

Isn't that 'never' a bit of a generalisation though? Some people who study Islam DO understand it. Perhaps not to the level that an ex-Muslim would, but yes, they do understand it and they do live by it. I didn't say everybody did because, of course that would be a generalisation on my part. But to say a majority or minority do/do not understand it is based on what research?
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