How well do you know Islam?

Previous page 1 2 3 45 6 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
- Baal
- Arab Slave Overlord
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #90 - November 10, 2008, 10:39 AM

Quote from: heartbomb on November 10, 2008, 09:35 AM
Granted my family may seem like an exception, but just because we are educating the some of the children in our family, does not make us priviledged or elite. My family still put an emphasis on reciting the Quran and sticking to the Muslim crowd. As for the rest of the kids, what about them? Maybe they ...

Yes, the rest of the kids, taught to recite..recite..recite. You see them on the buses and at work. Come on Heartbomb, it is me you are talking to here. And where are the IMO the 'few', who really know their deen? where are their blogs? Where are their editorials.

Quote from: heartbomb on November 10, 2008, 09:35 AM
could afford it but their parents prefered to send them to a madrassa for some Islamic education. Maybe they wanted to send them to an Ahmadiyya institution where, from what I know, education is free and is taught in direct relation to how they live their lives and how they should apply the teachings to their own lives.

Whether they wanted or had no choice, it matters not, islam is not designed to be taught. And the reason your cousins have to spend so many years studying it, is because they are unable to learn it and wrap their heads around it. I know that loop. They will always blame the emptiness they get from islam on their own perceived lack of intellect and knowledge. To make up for the emptiness they will study harder and harder till life passes them by or they get tired of looking and just submit their inferiority to the deen and to the imam.

Meanwhile, the most self-informative years of their live are gone over an arab desert mirage and now they have to face the world and compete with a whole lot of emptiness to move forward with.

Quote from: heartbomb on November 10, 2008, 09:35 AM
As an Atheist, I don't necessarily agree that this is how they should be taught, but to make an assumption that they are just taught to recite the Quran without any knowledge of what it means, is incorrect.

IMO Over 99% of muslims can not read/understand the koran. I might be wrong by maybe 5%? Sure they understand a word, or the occasional verse, but that is it. Yet most muslims are taught to recite the koran and they do recite at some time or another. Understanding the text hurts too much. Reciting becomes the easier option.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
- Baal
- Arab Slave Overlord
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #91 - November 10, 2008, 10:46 AM

Quote from: heartbomb on November 10, 2008, 10:28 AM
Quote from: Baal on November 10, 2008, 10:20 AM
Quote from: osmanthus on November 10, 2008, 08:54 AM
Quote from: Baal on November 10, 2008, 08:47 AM
<major snippage>

Ummm, how does your post invalidate HB's post?

She appealed to the case of her cousin which is an exception.

She is also stating that somehow people who study islam actually understand islam. That is never the case. I have in toronto some friends, engineers and university graduates, who spend entire weekends sleeping over at mosques and still have no clue about islam. They get wasted on rituals and minutiae and vocabulary.

Isn't that 'never' a bit of a generalisation though? Some people who study Islam DO understand it. Perhaps not to the level that an ex-Muslim would, but yes, they do understand it and they do live by it. I didn't say everybody did because, of course that would be a generalisation on my part. But to say a majority or minority do/do not understand it is based on what research?

yes never. I met One Egyptian guy who understood islam. He had a masters in information systems and a phd in economics. He stuck to islam because he pervceived the west to be worse. He said in Toronto we had less women MPs (then the rest of Umma, 1 Billion people vs 30 Million). That Canada did not allow women to vote until recently (yet also men were not allowed a little but earlier). In the middle ages the church killed 10 Million pagans/witches and the church used to charge people money to sell them couple acres in paradise.

So according to him islam is better by comparison and he knew exactly what islam was about. You can use the example of this guy against me if you choose. I hope you do not.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
- spiral dive
- Poor Lil Lelliphant.
- Ex-Muslim
- bouncy bouncy bouncy
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #92 - November 10, 2008, 10:53 AM

I'm not going to use that one guy against you. All I'm saying is that you can't just make up statistics (like your 5% statistic - where did that even come from anyway??)

I guess 'understanding' is a relative term to be using in this argument. My perception of understanding would be researching it, figuring out how it runs, and applying it to your own life.
- elle
- Member
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #93 - November 10, 2008, 12:19 PM

I find that it is assumed that if you are a Muslim, you must know all about Islam and that is a total fallacy. And I agree with Baal's contentions that being able to recite the Qur'an in Arabic does not constitute knowledge or comprehension of its significance. Most Muslims have a closed mind about they have learned from the Qur'an and are not permitted to challenge it. So for heartbomb to assume that most Muslims who study Islam understand Islam is a dangerous fallacy. Most are certainly dogmatic about the Qur'an, and that is for sure. Just observe the discussions here.
- spiral dive
- Poor Lil Lelliphant.
- Ex-Muslim
- bouncy bouncy bouncy
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #94 - November 10, 2008, 01:01 PM

Quote from: elle on November 10, 2008, 12:19 PM
I find that it is assumed that if you are a Muslim, you must know all about Islam and that is a total fallacy. And I agree with Baal's contentions that being able to recite the Qur'an in Arabic does not constitute knowledge or comprehension of its significance. Most Muslims have a closed mind about they have learned from the Qur'an and are not permitted to challenge it. So for heartbomb to assume that most Muslims who study Islam understand Islam is a dangerous fallacy. Most are certainly dogmatic about the Qur'an, and that is for sure. Just observe the discussions here.

For you to assume that most Muslims who study Islam don't understand it is a baseless assumption.

I never assumed MOST Muslims knew Islam, I was merely refuting that MOST Muslims don't understand it. Again, wheat are you statistics based on?
- elle
- Member
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #95 - November 10, 2008, 02:44 PM

Heartbomb: the statistics are all over the web. Just read all the post by Muslims about their concepts of Islam. Are you hooked on statistics?
- Jack Torrance
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #96 - November 10, 2008, 03:12 PM

Quote from: elle on November 10, 2008, 02:44 PM
Heartbomb: the statistics are all over the web. Just read all the post by Muslims about their concepts of Islam.

You're not serious?

Ha Ha.
- Baal
- Arab Slave Overlord
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #97 - November 10, 2008, 08:26 PM

Heartbomb, are you claiming that most people who study islam understand islam? and what do you mean by understand islam?

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
- osmanthus
- Cave dwelling
- Pub Regular
- Fingerer of piglets
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #98 - November 10, 2008, 09:33 PM

Quote from: elle on November 10, 2008, 02:44 PM
Heartbomb: the statistics are all over the web. Just read all the post by Muslims about their concepts of Islam. Are you hooked on statistics?

Ok, questions:

You claim that most Muslims who study Islam don't understand Islam.
I assume you have come to this conclusion based on your study of Islam.
How do you determine that the conclusions you have reached are more valid than the conclusions other people have reached?
What are your objective criteria for this?

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
- spiral dive
- Poor Lil Lelliphant.
- Ex-Muslim
- bouncy bouncy bouncy
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #99 - November 10, 2008, 09:37 PM

Quote from: elle on November 10, 2008, 02:44 PM
Heartbomb: the statistics are all over the web. Just read all the post by Muslims about their concepts of Islam. Are you hooked on statistics?

No I'm not hooked on statistics, but a number is just a number when it's brought out of nowhere.

Be careful where you get your numbers from.

If there were 90% of websites that said all Muslims are evil, I would use my common sense more than the statistic to make a judgement based on that. Just using an example, not trying to say that you said that.
- elle
- Member
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #100 - November 11, 2008, 06:07 PM

So is 90% of the Website material false, and only 10% may be OK? Isn't that biased?
- Jack Torrance
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #101 - November 11, 2008, 06:15 PM

Quote from: elle on November 11, 2008, 06:07 PM
So is 90% of the Website material false, and only 10% may be OK? Isn't that biased?

Ha Ha.
- sojournerlumus
- Pub Regular
- Belief beggars reason.
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #102 - November 11, 2008, 08:30 PM

Quote from: heartbomb on November 10, 2008, 09:37 PM
Quote from: elle on November 10, 2008, 02:44 PM
Heartbomb: the statistics are all over the web. Just read all the post by Muslims about their concepts of Islam. Are you hooked on statistics?

No I'm not hooked on statistics, but a number is just a number when it's brought out of nowhere.

Be careful where you get your numbers from.

If there were 90% of websites that said all Muslims are evil, I would use my common sense more than the statistic to make a judgement based on that. Just using an example, not trying to say that you said that.

That's my kind of heartbomb. Skeptical to a fine and laudable degree. You took the words out of my mind.

Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
- osmanthus
- Cave dwelling
- Pub Regular
- Fingerer of piglets
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #103 - November 11, 2008, 09:23 PM

Quote from: elle on November 11, 2008, 06:07 PM
So is 90% of the Website material false, and only 10% may be OK? Isn't that biased?

Heartbomb is from an Ahmedi background. I'm willing to bet that 90% of the Muslims she knows personally are not evil people. Therefore, if she sees someone quoting statistics that say 90% of Muslims are evil she is entitled to be sceptical.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #104 - November 11, 2008, 09:33 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on November 11, 2008, 09:23 PM
Quote from: elle on November 11, 2008, 06:07 PM
So is 90% of the Website material false, and only 10% may be OK? Isn't that biased?

Heartbomb is from an Ahmedi background. I'm willing to bet that 90% of the Muslims she knows personally are not evil people. Therefore, if she sees someone quoting statistics that say 90% of Muslims are evil she is entitled to be sceptical.

Anyone who thinks 90% of Muslims are evil is insane and maybe a little dangerous.

How many times do I have to say that the vast majority of Muslims are good, decent people.

You see this is what REALLY pisses me off - that 'some' of the people who engage in the debate about Islam, really do deep down hate Muslims or think most of them are dirty terrorists. They enter the debate about Islam in order to prove and justify their hate or prejudice.
- osmanthus
- Cave dwelling
- Pub Regular
- Fingerer of piglets
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #105 - November 11, 2008, 09:43 PM

Yes I know. It annoys me too, but I think it's worth trying to knock some sense into them.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #106 - November 12, 2008, 07:46 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on November 11, 2008, 09:43 PM
Yes I know. It annoys me too, but I think it's worth trying to knock some sense into them.

You're right of course - but I'm afraid I don't have much patience for such people.
- BerberElla
- Class A'sexual
- Creator Goddess
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #107 - November 12, 2008, 07:48 AM

Quote from: Hassan on November 12, 2008, 07:46 AM
Quote from: osmanthus on November 11, 2008, 09:43 PM
Yes I know. It annoys me too, but I think it's worth trying to knock some sense into them.

You're right of course - but I'm afraid I don't have much patience for such people.

Perhaps visualising them as troubled kids would help

Really really opinionated troubled kids, but kids nevertheless.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
- awais
- Ex-Muslim
- mulhid taqwa
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #108 - November 12, 2008, 07:48 AM

90% of statistics are BS

I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #109 - November 12, 2008, 07:48 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on November 12, 2008, 07:48 AM
Quote from: Hassan on November 12, 2008, 07:46 AM
Quote from: osmanthus on November 11, 2008, 09:43 PM
Yes I know. It annoys me too, but I think it's worth trying to knock some sense into them.

You're right of course - but I'm afraid I don't have much patience for such people.

Perhaps visualising them as troubled kids would help

Really really opinionated troubled kids, but kids nevertheless.

I will try... I promise
- spiral dive
- Poor Lil Lelliphant.
- Ex-Muslim
- bouncy bouncy bouncy
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #110 - November 12, 2008, 07:58 AM

Hang on, hang on.

I never said anything about thinking that 90% of Muslims are evil. I was merely using a hypothetical example for my statistics argument.

Elle, you seem to be the one hooked on bias. Of course it would be bias if 90% of websites say that. That's what my point is, you say stuff is posted all over the web, but I'm not looking at the web, I'm looking at my own personal interaction of 21 years WITH Muslims to make a judgement.

I'm from an Ahmadiyya background where they frown upon violence. I've interacted with Muslims from other sects and they have been good people. So to assume that you can just learn about Islam from the web by trying to see through the eyes of Muslims posting blogs, is very dangerous.
- BerberElla
- Class A'sexual
- Creator Goddess
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #111 - November 12, 2008, 08:05 AM

I should note at this stage though that in my 28yrs of being a muslim I met more muslims who's views made me feel sick than I did muslims that I actually liked.

They may have been normal on the outside but inside they were seething masses of hate towards this country and the kaffirs in it. I know many a muslim who supported the bombings, the planes in the twin towers, I sat in a room where people were throwing a party to celebrate the death of 3000 souls, and rewinding parts so they could laugh at people who were opting to jump from the windows of the twin towers.

It's a tough one because my experience with muslims was not a nice one and I met less than a handful of muslims with the guts to say "that was barbaric".

So on the one hand we have yours and hassans nice experiences with muslims, and my not so nice ones.

In all of that a balance must be found to the truth of the matter.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
- elle
- Member
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #112 - November 12, 2008, 02:06 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on November 12, 2008, 08:05 AM
I should note at this stage though that in my 28yrs of being a muslim I met more muslims who's views made me feel sick than I did muslims that I actually liked.

They may have been normal on the outside but inside they were seething masses of hate towards this country and the kaffirs in it. I know many a muslim who supported the bombings, the planes in the twin towers, I sat in a room where people were throwing a party to celebrate the death of 3000 souls, and rewinding parts so they could laugh at people who were opting to jump from the windows of the twin towers.

It's a tough one because my experience with muslims was not a nice one and I met less than a handful of muslims with the guts to say "that was barbaric".

So on the one hand we have yours and hassans nice experiences with muslims, and my not so nice ones.

In all of that a balance must be found to the truth of the matter.

Thank you BerberElla, you have just confirmed my perception that A Muslim is a Muslim, and that "The Moderate Muslim" is only a PC term used by Kafirs for all Muslims and the the "Moderate Muslim" does not exist unless he is an ex-Muslim?
- spiral dive
- Poor Lil Lelliphant.
- Ex-Muslim
- bouncy bouncy bouncy
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #113 - November 12, 2008, 02:11 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on November 12, 2008, 08:05 AM
I should note at this stage though that in my 28yrs of being a muslim I met more muslims who's views made me feel sick than I did muslims that I actually liked.

They may have been normal on the outside but inside they were seething masses of hate towards this country and the kaffirs in it. I know many a muslim who supported the bombings, the planes in the twin towers, I sat in a room where people were throwing a party to celebrate the death of 3000 souls, and rewinding parts so they could laugh at people who were opting to jump from the windows of the twin towers.

It's a tough one because my experience with muslims was not a nice one and I met less than a handful of muslims with the guts to say "that was barbaric".

So on the one hand we have yours and hassans nice experiences with muslims, and my not so nice ones.

In all of that a balance must be found to the truth of the matter.

But that's the thing, you are basing your views, your perceptions on your own experience, not a bunch of made up statistics.

Quote from: elle on November 12, 2008, 02:06 PM
Quote from: BerberElla on November 12, 2008, 08:05 AM
I should note at this stage though that in my 28yrs of being a muslim I met more muslims who's views made me feel sick than I did muslims that I actually liked.

They may have been normal on the outside but inside they were seething masses of hate towards this country and the kaffirs in it. I know many a muslim who supported the bombings, the planes in the twin towers, I sat in a room where people were throwing a party to celebrate the death of 3000 souls, and rewinding parts so they could laugh at people who were opting to jump from the windows of the twin towers.

It's a tough one because my experience with muslims was not a nice one and I met less than a handful of muslims with the guts to say "that was barbaric".

So on the one hand we have yours and hassans nice experiences with muslims, and my not so nice ones.

In all of that a balance must be found to the truth of the matter.

Thank you BerberElla, you have just confirmed my perception that A Muslim is a Muslim, and that "The Moderate Muslim" is only a PC term used by Kafirs for all Muslims and the the "Moderate Muslim" does not exist unless he is an ex-Muslim?

Of course a moderate Muslim exists, I know plenty. A moderate muslim does not exist unless he/she is an ex-Muslim? How does that statement not contradict itself? An ex-Muslim isn't a moderate Muslim, he/she is an ex-Muslim.

The term "moderate Muslim" is not a PC term usd by Kafirs for all Muslims, it's a term used generally by several groups for Muslims who loosely practice the religion and are not hardcore.
- Baal
- Arab Slave Overlord
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #114 - November 12, 2008, 03:22 PM

A moderate is a person who, purposely or through ignorance or loopholes, goes against scripture.

[Warning - Muslimology]:

In that sense the vast majority of muslims believe the koran is he immutable word of a god, so the vast majority of muslims are incapable of being "moderate on purpose".

Most muslims however, are "moderate through ignorance of scripture". Being incapable of following every command and ritual in the koran, and being incapable of understanding the original scripture, even as they read that scripture they still can not form a proper understanding.

The "Moderate on Purpose" is what we often think of when we talk about a 'moderate'. A person who will refuse to enact a certain scripture in order for all of us to go on living our lives.

Now the average muslim, whether you like it or not *is* a moderate, however being a moderate though "ignorance of the doctrine", makes him a flaky moderate. Flaky since he/she still clings to the idea that the koran is immutable, all it takes for a fundamentalist is to instruct the moderate about what the scripture actually orders and the moderate will just take the backseat. Afterall, it is the written word of a god.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
- Arab-Wannabe
- **BANNED**
- Muslim
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #115 - November 12, 2008, 03:30 PM

Quote from: elle on November 12, 2008, 02:06 PM
Quote from: BerberElla on November 12, 2008, 08:05 AM
I should note at this stage though that in my 28yrs of being a muslim I met more muslims who's views made me feel sick than I did muslims that I actually liked.

They may have been normal on the outside but inside they were seething masses of hate towards this country and the kaffirs in it. I know many a muslim who supported the bombings, the planes in the twin towers, I sat in a room where people were throwing a party to celebrate the death of 3000 souls, and rewinding parts so they could laugh at people who were opting to jump from the windows of the twin towers.

It's a tough one because my experience with muslims was not a nice one and I met less than a handful of muslims with the guts to say "that was barbaric".

So on the one hand we have yours and hassans nice experiences with muslims, and my not so nice ones.

In all of that a balance must be found to the truth of the matter.

Thank you BerberElla, you have just confirmed my perception that A Muslim is a Muslim, and that "The Moderate Muslim" is only a PC term used by Kafirs for all Muslims and the the "Moderate Muslim" does not exist unless he is an ex-Muslim?

No, you just need something to confirm your pre-existing prejudices about an entire group of people.

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

"Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
- Quran 4:78
- awais
- Ex-Muslim
- mulhid taqwa
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #116 - November 12, 2008, 03:33 PM

Elle, if you're so concerned about what the 'True' Islam is, why don't you study with a Salafi or something? We might as well argue about how Methodists and Anglicans are deviants from the 'True Church', or that Reform Jews should be stoned for blaspheming the Sabbath. It's all bullshit.

I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
- gonzo
- Capitalist
- Member
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #117 - November 12, 2008, 03:46 PM

Quote from: elle on November 12, 2008, 02:06 PM
Quote from: BerberElla on November 12, 2008, 08:05 AM
I should note at this stage though that in my 28yrs of being a muslim I met more muslims who's views made me feel sick than I did muslims that I actually liked.

They may have been normal on the outside but inside they were seething masses of hate towards this country and the kaffirs in it. I know many a muslim who supported the bombings, the planes in the twin towers, I sat in a room where people were throwing a party to celebrate the death of 3000 souls, and rewinding parts so they could laugh at people who were opting to jump from the windows of the twin towers.

It's a tough one because my experience with muslims was not a nice one and I met less than a handful of muslims with the guts to say "that was barbaric".

So on the one hand we have yours and hassans nice experiences with muslims, and my not so nice ones.

In all of that a balance must be found to the truth of the matter.

Thank you BerberElla, you have just confirmed my perception that A Muslim is a Muslim, and that "The Moderate Muslim" is only a PC term used by Kafirs for all Muslims and the the "Moderate Muslim" does not exist unless he is an ex-Muslim?

Not quite, a moderate muslim is one who follows islamic ideology in moderation, as opposed to an fundamentalist or extremist who strictly adheres to islamic principles. The only part that PCism plays in this is that it promotes the idea that Islam in moderation is a desirable compromise. Moderation is prefered to extremism in any form, even that which is extremely good is condemned as extreme, with evil in moderation being preferred.

Regards,
Gonzo

"The spread of evil is the symptom of a vacuum. Whenever evil wins, it is only by default: by the moral failure of those who evade the fact that there can be no compromise on basic principles" - Ayn Rand
- BerberElla
- Class A'sexual
- Creator Goddess
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #118 - November 12, 2008, 03:50 PM

Quote from: elle on November 12, 2008, 02:06 PM

Thank you BerberElla, you have just confirmed my perception that A Muslim is a Muslim, and that "The Moderate Muslim" is only a PC term used by Kafirs for all Muslims and the the "Moderate Muslim" does not exist unless he is an ex-Muslim?

Well that would be because you were simply looking for confirmation on even the flimsiest of reasons.

There ARE moderate muslims who are not ex muslims, an ex muslim is someone who has proclaimed to himself that he no longer believes in Islam, a moderate muslim is a muslim who has cherry picked parts of the religion so that they do not have to leave islam.

It is not a PC term, it is a real term, for real people who still believe in allah but believe Islam has been twisted.

I do not believe Islam has been twisted, I believe that Islam is twisted, a moderate muslim knows this and discards all the twisted parts of Islam to salve his conscience. Hence him being a moderate muslim.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
- awais
- Ex-Muslim
- mulhid taqwa
- offline
Re: How well do you know Islam?
Reply #119 - November 12, 2008, 03:52 PM

heh, a kaafir takfiri

I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
Previous page 1 2 3 45 6 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »