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 Topic: Conservative or liberal

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  • Conservative or liberal
     OP - November 12, 2008, 12:21 AM
    I was wondering what the political leanings of ex-Muslims are: conservative, liberal, left, right, centrist etc.

    I'm a left of centre liberal myself and I was even as a Muslim. I think naturally my liberalism turned me away from Islam. But I feel now that I'm getting more liberal than most non-Muslims. Since I left Islam, I've felt slightly disoriented culturally. I don't know where I fit. I'm a political liberal, yet have conserative lifestyle proclivities. Does anyone else suffer this confusion?
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell
  • Re: Conservative or liberal
     Reply #1 - November 12, 2008, 01:19 AM
    Liberal here. Was so before and during Islam. Funny innit?
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Conservative or liberal
     Reply #2 - November 12, 2008, 07:54 AM
    According to one test I took I'm a centrist, which makes perfect sense to me.  I think I've always been like that, even when I was the conservative muslim it was more of an act to be the proper muslim when in reality inside I was in turmoil with my very liberal views fighting to be acknowledged.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Conservative or liberal
     Reply #3 - December 11, 2008, 02:08 PM
    I'm liberal too and dont think it is a concidence that many Muslims are - they are mutually exclusive,  its plainly difficult to reconcile liberalism with neo-fashism. Liberals have been forced into a stand-off between their views & religion itself, with either Islam or Liberty (or a bit of both) being cast aside. 

    I find a lot of people who are conservative in their viewpoint, find it easier to reconcile with Islam, and liberals either denounce it or have to interpret it to suit.

    "But I feel now that I'm getting more liberal than most non-Muslims. Since I left Islam, I've felt slightly disoriented culturally. I don't know where I fit. I'm a political liberal, yet have conserative lifestyle proclivities. Does anyone else suffer this confusion?"


    What makes you feel you are liberal than most ex-Muslims - I for one believe all drugs (including heroine) should be legalised and do not suffer any so-called confusion, if anything frustration is probably adjective for ex-muslims.  Provided you views are sound, rational & logical then there should be no source for confusion - if you are still unsure post some of these views here and see what people have to say.
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  • Re: Conservative or liberal
     Reply #4 - December 11, 2008, 02:23 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on December 11, 2008, 02:08 PM



    What makes you feel you are liberal than most ex-Muslims - I for one believe all drugs (including heroine) should be legalised and do not suffer any so-called confusion, if anything frustration is probably adjective for ex-muslims.  Provided you views are sound, rational & logical then there should be no source for confusion - if you are still unsure post some of these views here and see what people have to say.



    Well I agree with you...almost, there are some drugs I do not think should be legalised, but I am pretty liberal in how I see the world.

    My only problem (and maybe this is what ladyofshallot means) is that I feel bad/naughty/sinful etc on some of the issues that I am liberal about.

    IE I believe people should be allowed to have sex without marriage, have more than one partner, open relationships, some more perverted sex scenes I would never have agreed with as a muslim, yet I myself have not hurried out to do any of these things because part of me feels bad/naughty/sinful to even think that way in the first place.

    Yet I don't believe in god, especially not Islam as a religion, so how is it that I am still suffering some confusion on what is ok and what isn't?

    I feel too liberal, too open, too "anything goes".  wacko
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Conservative or liberal
     Reply #5 - December 11, 2008, 05:59 PM
    Pretty conservative here on the whole - economically and socially.  But big on international development and social justice as well.

    Quote from: Berbs
    IE I believe people should be allowed to have sex without marriage, have more than one partner, open relationships, some more perverted sex scenes I would never have agreed with as a muslim, yet I myself have not hurried out to do any of these things because part of me feels bad/naughty/sinful to even think that way in the first place.


    Believing that something should be legal is not the same as believing that it is right.  It might be that an action that is morally wrong harms no-one else and any law against it would be unenforceable.  In that case, it might remain legal even though it was morally wrong.

    But that conscience thing is a problem isn't it...
  • Re: Conservative or liberal
     Reply #6 - December 11, 2008, 06:12 PM
    Quote from: sparky on December 11, 2008, 05:59 PM


    Believing that something should be legal is not the same as believing that it is right.  It might be that an action that is morally wrong harms no-one else and any law against it would be unenforceable.  In that case, it might remain legal even though it was morally wrong.

    But that conscience thing is a problem isn't it...


    Yes, but I don't believe those things I said above are morally wrong, not on a rational level, my feelings however run on a different clock because they have been manipulated through time and religious education to believe they are morally wrong.

    It's an internal war that I intend to solve eventually before I dive in to anything I may later regret.

    Ugh, things are not so easy though.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Conservative or liberal
     Reply #7 - December 11, 2008, 06:39 PM
    "Conservative or liberal"? No. Do I have to be?  Tongue

    Marxian socialist/communist.
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Conservative or liberal
     Reply #8 - December 12, 2008, 12:13 AM
    It may be that you are holding a deep rooted fear that makes you feel guilty, despite you knowing it is irrational. 

    This is also true for me.  I still dont like getting too close to dogs, or eating pork.  This is ingrained social conditioning that may never go away completely.  Our best hope is that in generations things may change, and we have to accept that we may never complete the circle during our life time, particularly as the source of these conditionings are still around us.
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  • Re: Conservative or liberal
     Reply #9 - December 12, 2008, 01:30 AM
    According to every test I took, Centrist Left.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Conservative or liberal
     Reply #10 - December 12, 2008, 07:31 AM
    Libertarian socialist.
    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Conservative or liberal
     Reply #11 - December 12, 2008, 06:57 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on December 11, 2008, 06:12 PM
    Quote from: sparky on December 11, 2008, 05:59 PM


    Believing that something should be legal is not the same as believing that it is right.  It might be that an action that is morally wrong harms no-one else and any law against it would be unenforceable.  In that case, it might remain legal even though it was morally wrong.

    But that conscience thing is a problem isn't it...


    Yes, but I don't believe those things I said above are morally wrong, not on a rational level, my feelings however run on a different clock because they have been manipulated through time and religious education to believe they are morally wrong.

    It's an internal war that I intend to solve eventually before I dive in to anything I may later regret.

    Ugh, things are not so easy though.

    What is the rational basis on which you are answering the question?  Before you said that the golden rule was your guide.  What would the golden rule tell you?  Would you prefer that a person you have sex with had made a marriage commitment to you?  Would you prefer that the person you marry had not had sex with anyone else?  Would your marriage not be enriched if you had shared that deepest level of physical intimacy only with your spouse?  What about limiting your exposure to STDs?  I can think of lots of reasons to restrict sex to marriage - completely apart from religious ones.

    I find it interesting that you fundamentally distrust your conscience as a guide to right and wrong though.  Kind of blows a hole in the case of those who say that their morality comes from 'following their conscience' for who can be sure that their conscience has not been similarly manipulated?  And how do you distinguish those responses that arise from manipulation and those that are 'natural'?

    Cheers,
    sparky
  • Re: Conservative or liberal
     Reply #12 - December 12, 2008, 07:05 PM
    Quote from: sparky on December 12, 2008, 06:57 PM

    What is the rational basis on which you are answering the question? 


    My own.

    Quote
    Before you said that the golden rule was your guide.  What would the golden rule tell you? 


    That as long as they like it and I like it and it hurts no one, then it's totally fine, "do unto others" well I would never do anything sexually to someone that I wouldn't at least try out myself.

    Quote
    Would you prefer that a person you have sex with had made a marriage commitment to you? 


    A commitment at least. 

    Quote

     Would you prefer that the person you marry had not had sex with anyone else? 


    No, I need no apology from anyone for people they slept with before they met me, I don't care if he had prior partners, I know I have.

    Quote

     Would your marriage not be enriched if you had shared that deepest level of physical intimacy only with your spouse? 


    Maybe, but to each their own on that front as long as no one is getting hurt.

    Quote

     What about limiting your exposure to STDs?


    Condoms, Condoms, Condoms, and when you are ready to progress to no condoms (with contraceptive in place) a check up, followed by another check up 3 months later.


    Quote
      I can think of lots of reasons to restrict sex to marriage - completely apart from religious ones.


    In this day and age of contraception and preventative measures I can't.

    Quote
    I find it interesting that you fundamentally distrust your conscience as a guide to right and wrong though.  Kind of blows a hole in the case of those who say that their morality comes from 'following their conscience' for who can be sure that their conscience has not been similarly manipulated?  And how do you distinguish those responses that arise from manipulation and those that are 'natural'?

    Cheers,
    sparky


    We can't, we can only hope that a day comes when the majority of people aren't educated via religious morality to see what new morality arises and how or whether things will change, for good or bad.

    A few hundred years of total global atheism would create interesting results I think.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Conservative or liberal
     Reply #13 - December 12, 2008, 08:19 PM
    Not sure whether religion plays as greater part on the conscience of a westernized nation in any case. 

    Even the majority of those that claim to be following a religion, are in fact following their conscience and justifying it by the version of religion that agrees with their conscience.  I say this because I believe where most westernized nations are today, is down to culture and not religion, so not sure that even if these nations all turned atheists tomorrow that the course of history would change..
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  • Re: Conservative or liberal
     Reply #14 - December 12, 2008, 08:31 PM
    I am a Democrat.  If I lived in the states I would vote for the democrats.
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Conservative or liberal
     Reply #15 - December 12, 2008, 08:39 PM
    Quote from: Iggy on December 12, 2008, 07:31 AM
    Libertarian socialist.


    It's a surprise to find someone else here in largely the same political mould.
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Conservative or liberal
     Reply #16 - December 12, 2008, 09:03 PM
    Quote from: panoptic on December 12, 2008, 08:39 PM
    Quote from: Iggy on December 12, 2008, 07:31 AM
    Libertarian socialist.


    It's a surprise to find someone else here in largely the same political mould.


    Hello fellow radical. piggy
    Are you a hardcore Marxist or more libertarian? Leninist?
    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Conservative or liberal
     Reply #17 - December 12, 2008, 10:59 PM
    Certainly not Leninist. Libertarian, yes - in the vein of traditional marxism.

    Labels purport to be concise, but I doubt do not obfuscate matters in their substance.
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Conservative or liberal
     Reply #18 - December 13, 2008, 05:30 AM
    Quote from: panoptic on December 12, 2008, 10:59 PM
    Labels purport to be concise, but I doubt do not obfuscate matters in their substance.

    I don't even consider myself to be on the political spectrum. I'm simply anti-authoritarian. Libertarian socialism/anarchism sums up what I believe in perfectly. Still, there are a dozen of other terms I can use to refer to my political philosophy. Yes, so labels don't reveal much but they're necessary.

    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Conservative or liberal
     Reply #19 - December 13, 2008, 06:49 PM
    Ok. That makes sense.

    Labels maybe neccesary as distinctions - but they've lead to so much confusion. For example too much is made of the difference between anarchists and marxists, even though Marx was influenced by anarchists and there was no real disagreement between Marx and Baukinin, it was just about some stupid conspiracy theory. That was before Marx's ideas were butchered. Now there are myriad designation and sects in this political sector. In my experience, they genuinely tell me little, especially with some of the ideas that masquerade in them. Even on this forum there was one sick cunt pretending to be a marxist and some kind of socialist [and, elsewhere: an ex-muslim], but turned out to be catholic and a fascist.
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Conservative or liberal
     Reply #20 - December 13, 2008, 11:59 PM
    Erm, I dunno how to answer this question.  I feel like I'm central-conservative... but when I took a few political tests my results were left-libertarian.  Huh?

    It depends on the issue I guess.
    .
  • Re: Conservative or liberal
     Reply #21 - December 14, 2008, 12:45 AM
    Quote from: panoptic on December 13, 2008, 06:49 PM
    Ok. That makes sense.

    Labels maybe neccesary as distinctions - but they've lead to so much confusion.

    I agree. Labels do confuse because they're so ambiguous. Especially terms like libertarian, because it means something completely different in America than it does in the rest of the world.

    Quote from: panoptic on December 13, 2008, 06:49 PM
    For example too much is made of the difference between anarchists and marxists, even though Marx was influenced by anarchists and there was no real disagreement between Marx and Baukinin, it was just about some stupid conspiracy theory.

    Yeah, communists and anarchists do have more in common than in differences. About Marx and Bakunin, are you referring to Marx and Bakunin's dispute about the transitional stage as a conspiracy theory, or are you talking about something else? Bakunin believed the dictatorship of the proletariat would invite hierarchy and more tyranny, which it did.

    Quote from: panoptic on December 13, 2008, 06:49 PM
    Now there are myriad designation and sects in this political sector. In my experience, they genuinely tell me little, especially with some of the ideas that masquerade in them.

    All these sects and names, I think do more harm than good. They just end up dividing the left even more. Anarchists (and communists), within themselves have so many disputes over small differences in ideology. They're ideals are fundamentally the same, so why can't they get passed that and criticize the right instead?
    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Conservative or liberal
     Reply #22 - December 14, 2008, 02:33 AM
    the left and right spectrum as well as the authoritarian and libertarian spectrum are dividers and blinders from  the truth. class solidarity and class war are what we one should define ourselves. does one fight for injustice and the poor or injustice and wealth. fuck relgion, race and gender! you ur either scum or not finmad
  • Re: Conservative or liberal
     Reply #23 - December 14, 2008, 12:49 PM
    Can someone explain how you can be a liberterian anarchist? I thought they amassed to the same thing, freedom from societal controls, one being to a greater degree than the other?
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  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #24 - February 07, 2014, 12:41 PM
    Quote from: ladyofshalott on November 12, 2008, 12:21 AM
    I was wondering what the political leanings of ex-Muslims are: conservative, liberal, left, right, centrist etc.

    I'm a left of centre liberal myself and I was even as a Muslim. I think naturally my liberalism turned me away from Islam. But I feel now that I'm getting more liberal than most non-Muslims. Since I left Islam, I've felt slightly disoriented culturally. I don't know where I fit. I'm a political liberal, yet have conserative lifestyle proclivities. Does anyone else suffer this confusion?

    What confusion?

    Just because you don't fit neatly in leftist or rightist camps doesn't mean that you're confused. So why do you think you're confused?

    I'm a follower of liberalism (which has nothing to do with left-ism). Liberalism is about people being equal under the law. It's about individual rights and the freedom to do whatever one wants short of infringing on the rights of others.

    Note that today's US political parties do not do liberalism right. Both parties, democrat and republican, get liberalism wrong. Both parties advocate restricting people's freedoms. The republican party advocates forcing doctors not to do abortions. The democratic party advocates forcing people not to eat what they want to eat (consider the limit on 16 oz drinks in New York). Both parties are in favor of forcing people not to produce, sell, and ingest drugs. Both parties want to force charity on people.

    Neither party understands liberalism.

    My ideas on this are mainly from the book Liberalism: The Classical Tradition, by Ludwig Von Mises, and from here: http://fallibleideas.com
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #25 - February 07, 2014, 12:57 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on December 11, 2008, 02:23 PM
    Yet I don't believe in god, especially not Islam as a religion, so how is it that I am still suffering some confusion on what is ok and what isn't?

    Internal conflicts are common.

    In order to resolve an internal conflict, you'd have to fix one or both of the conflicting ideas.

    Why do you think it's bad to do a certain sex act? What harm could it cause? If you can't explain that there is any harm, then you have no reason to feel bad. If you still feel bad, even though you don't know of any harm, then that means you have created a trigger.

    Consider this. Lets say you lived your entire life being punished for making mistakes. Each punishment felt bad (spanking, parents yelling, time outs, taking away privileges, dirty looks from the parents, etc). With enough occurrences of this you began to associate mistakes with pain. You even created a trigger about it. So each time you make a mistake, you get a bad feeling (like anxiety).

    Then one day you no longer live with your parents. You're no longer in school. And lets say you're at home and you accidentally break something that costs you $20. It's a mistake. There's no one there to know about it but you. But because you have the trigger, you get a bad feeling. But it's only $20. let's say you live in US and have a decent job. Losing $20 doesn't harm you, yet you felt bad anyway. Why? Because of the trigger you have.

    Can you fix your triggers? Yes!!!

    What does it take to fix your triggers? Some philosophical knowledge. I suggest starting with this: http://fallibleideas.com/emotions

    If you'd like some help in this, contact me privately.
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #26 - February 08, 2014, 04:29 AM
    I'm either a very liberal conservative or a very conservative liberal.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #27 - February 08, 2014, 05:52 AM
    I guess I have an inclination to liberalism and the left with conservative ideas here and there. On a slightly unrelated note, I think there should be a unified attempt to ban faith schools in the UK (and the US) as religious education should not be thought alongside secular education.
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #28 - February 08, 2014, 08:20 AM
    I think the majority of people in the UK would agree with you from what I've seen.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #29 - February 08, 2014, 01:53 PM
    Liberal all the way. But for some reason I don't drink, eat pork , believe in monogamy and monoamory. I was like this even when I was a Muslim.
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