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- cosmicdancer
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Reply #120 - September 26, 2014, 09:37 PM

I'm a Coniberal.

But on weekends I'm a Libevative.
- Stephen
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Reply #121 - September 26, 2014, 10:00 PM

Allat,

I have been out for most of the day, having only returned to my home in the last few minutes.

As for sources, try any one of the following:
Fixed Nails --- Aish.com --- Robrimes political & social issues.

As for the person (whose name I have forgotten) calling for me to be barred from this site, I can only say one or two of the people on here hold some very weird ideas about freedom of speech.

Still, you must do whatever you think is right. It is your blog, after all.

Kind Regards,
Stephen.
- schizo
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Reply #122 - September 26, 2014, 10:12 PM

Academic sources Stephen, academic.

And do not misrepresent my position. I did not ask for an outright ban. I merely asked the mods to consider if you failed to cite reputable sources. For good reason, as one would no doubt have deduced.
- bogart
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Reply #123 - September 26, 2014, 10:31 PM

Social liberal, financial conservative.
- Stephen
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Reply #124 - September 26, 2014, 10:45 PM

I'll tell you what, Schizo, if the best you can do is call for people to be barred from this site, you will simply be left with the ones who agree with you.

I couldn't care less what you believe or what you don't, and I certainly won't be bullied into complying with your demands.

My original post referred to something I read in college a very long time ago, the source for which is lost in the mists of time.

As for the other stuff, I have provided the sources for written opinions based on first hand accounts. If that doesn't satisfy you, tough. I won't be dancing to your tune, or to anyone else's for that matter.

Now, off you go and cry to the moderators again.

Kind Regards,
Stephen.
- bogart
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Reply #125 - September 26, 2014, 11:16 PM

Quote from: mubs_352 on September 26, 2014, 11:40 AM
The Welfare state is necessarily a bad thing. It is in unfair distribution of wealth. Imagine a society where 20% of people work and 80% simply cannot be bothered. Those 80% can easily vote-in governments to do their bidding, which for instance would be to take from the workers and give to the leechers.

Such an example is nonsensical as the nation would completely collapse well before even getting close to those numbers. The 80% can vote for whatever they want but if there is no money or money has little value the hands outs amount to nothing. Have you heard of inflation and economic depression?

Quote
This is a huge problem with modern democracy; the idea that every individual has an equal vote even though the contribution is not equal. Power is generally self-regulating in any society as those who perform best acheive the most power. Therefore, they should have the larger say in how things are run.

Yes democracy like previous systems of government are firmly in the hand of the rich and powerful. Democracy gives people the choice between which party or politician is against a personal view the least. It is still superior to handing over power to those that perform the best. The best is not the correct word to be used here. Wealth is inherited more than it is gained. There are a number of stupid rich kids which gain their social standing from their parents not their accomplishment. There family status grants them social class not their own accomplishment. Climbing the social ladder from poor to rich is almost impossible without external help. If people can only achieve what their social standing is capable of there is little movement from the masses to the elite. If you are not in the upper class which is for millionaires and billionaires you are stuck in the poor class. Handing out undeserved status and linking this with government is why we had kings that ruined their nation, had kings which were insane....

Quote
What we have now in the West is huge income disparity and huge governments with greater power. The governments use this power to promote the interests of their friends in big business. BUT, it is not big business, or the powerful, that have given the governments this much power. It is the weak, and weak-minded, those weak-minded people who believe in greater socialism/liberalism (nhs, increased government conrol and taxes) that ultimately weaken the most important part of society, the (upper) Middle Classes, lets say those earning 50K to 150K.

The issue is people are not motivated to keep the system for the people and by the people. As long as people receive platitudes they are happy. This is the same reason people were happy with monarchies, dictators, theocracy, etc.
- Villiage_Idiot
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Reply #126 - September 27, 2014, 01:39 AM

Quote from: Mubs_352
The Welfare state is necessarily a bad thing. It is in unfair distribution of wealth.

What exactly do you call "welfare". Do you have children, and do they attend a public school? That is a government freebie too, don't you realize. It is no different than an unemployment payment that ensures a person can eat and pay their rent until they find their next job.

Most uni students can't finish their degree and walk out into a job straight away. Many take part-time jobs supplemented by unemployment payments until they can secure a good job. If that payment wasn't there, many would just walk out of uni into homelessness, and since it's difficult to find a job when you are homeless, lots of them would never have gotten the chance to have the $100,000 a year jobs they have now and would never contribute to society.

Some people are dysfunctional and mentally unfit for work and they never will be able to get a job. An unemployment payment is cheaper than housing them in jail, which is what would happen if they had to steal or starve. It's not about handing out freebies, it's about what's cheapest for society.

Are you saying that no children of welfare parents ever got a job themselves? Rubbish! And what would have happened to those children instead if their parents hadn't received welfare and they had lived on the streets? They wouldn't have just stopped having kids that's for sure.

I'm sick of hearing that all welfare countries will go the way of Greece. The US is not a welfare state by any means, yet it is up to eyeballs in debt, and it sure wasn't because of welfare spending.

And what's this about the left-wing being weaker people than the right-wing? Firstly, I lift weights daily, jump rope for one hour, and am a fitness and health freak. I probably have more muscles than any of the conservative guys on this site. So, chew on that.

And the other thing I'm hearing a lot of lately is how the conservatives are trying to enforce the rule here that police aren't allowed to have tattoos (or must cover them up). This is only because conservatives find tattoos thuggish (aka intimidating). Why are conservatives so intimated by such things? Why are they so weak and scared of anything they don't understand? Who knows. They say they aren't intimidated, just offended by tatts. Well, what else are they offended by so much that it needs to be so carefully kept out of their sight? Do police smoking carcinogenic cigarettes offend them too? I could easily argue that smoking a carcinogenic drug is a sign of mental instability and I don't want people protecting me when they clearly have mental instabilities. But, I am mature enough to just toughen up and stop being offended by every little trivial thing.

As for conservatives being OK with homosexuality, don't make me laugh. What do the conservatives think about gay marriage? Be honest now.

The power of the catholic church, black slavery, women not being allowed to vote, the condemnation of gay people... all those right-wing crimes were only overturned because they were opposed by the left.

I'm a left-winger and darn proud of it

The misspelling in my name is intentional, because I'm an idiot and I can't spell properly. But I'd probably also say that even if it was a mistake. Does that clear things up?
- suki
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Reply #127 - September 27, 2014, 08:04 AM

Quote from: mubs_352 on September 26, 2014, 05:42 PM
Ok, I will try and give an explanation of my post as I have been told by mods that not doing so will result in a ban/restricted access.

So the way I see it is like this, generally speaking

Right: Less Equality of Outcome and Wealth Redistribution, Less Government, More Individual Freedom, Less Taxes, Less Welfare, More Military expenditure etc

Left; Greater Equality of Outcome and Wealth Redistribution, Government, Less Freedom, Greater taxes, Greater Welfare, Less Military expenditure,

If you are confident in your ability, you wont want income redistribution and other government interventions that may diminish any advantage you may have over others. But if you are weak or lazy then you are more likely to want handouts that disadvantage those stronger than you.

But the thing is, rewarding strength, fitness, success etc is important for a sociery.

The other link is about how the political landscape shifted significantly to the Left once women were given the vote. One reason they give is that women were afraid to be dependant on their husbands so asked the government to provide for them instead. Replacing dependance on a husband with dependance on a government is a really stupid thing to do. The Government cannot be the father, but they are trying now, and we have greater proportion of unruly,disrespectful and dysfunctional children with each generation (amongst other problems).
http://futureofchildren.org/publications/journals/article/index.xml?journalid=37&articleid=107&sectionid=692

How many single parent families we there before the Leftist movement of Women's Lib altered the landscape?

Your'e generalising really, dysfunctional unruly children come from two parent homes also, the problem is much deeper rooted and more of a cultural problem. Most single parent families are due to marriage break down, not pre planned lefty ladies deciding, hmm think i'll go get me some kids today lol, there are lots of young girls who do think that way true but on the whole its because of divorce. I'm very thankful that i had a government that supported me when my ex had gone, i would never have gotten the support of a new husband as it is almost impossible to find anyone willing or interested in helping raise another man/womans children, i would never want to depend on a man for that and why should i jump into a fake relationship for money reasons, without the gov help i would have been homeless on the streets, like single parent families were in the dark ages prostituting themselves to feed their kids.
- suki
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Reply #128 - September 27, 2014, 08:53 AM

^ sorry i made a mistake, misread your post, i thought you were talking about women who choose to be single parents, relying on the state, disregard
- Stephen
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Reply #129 - September 27, 2014, 09:23 PM

Hi Suki,

There is a World of difference between women who have endured a bad marriage, and irresponsible girls who see children as a meal ticket.

I believe in the welfare state, and in the compassionate distribution of benefits to those women who would otherwise face ruin.

What I don't and never will agree with is allowing feckless layabouts to abuse a system to which they have never contributed, while pensioners who have paid taxes all their lives can't afford to keep their homes properly heated in winter.

While we are on about fairness, I strongly believe that the congenital idiots who clog Accident & Emergency departments due to drunken violence should be sent a bill for all the care they receive. They should also be billed for the Police man hours that are wasted in dealing with them, and prosecuted separately for taking the Police away from their duties protecting the rest of society.

Kind Regards,
Stephen.
- osmanthus
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Reply #130 - September 27, 2014, 09:31 PM

Quote
Hi Suki,

Fn bastards serves them right they can all rot in hell!

Kind Regards,
Stephen.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
- Skywalker
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Reply #131 - September 27, 2014, 09:44 PM

Stephen
By American standards, Margareth Thatcher wouldn't be a conservative.Some would even consider her a liberal or even a socialist if they didn't know who she was.

Labels like liberal and conservative, left and right, mean different things for different people. As someone pointed out, in the land of the kangaroos(peace be upon them), liberal means conservative.
- mubs_352
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Reply #132 - September 27, 2014, 09:54 PM

I think some welfare is ok, but shouldnt be abused. Problem is when people actually start voting Left to increase Welfare/Benefits. What are their intentions? If you plan on staying on welfare for a short time to get through a bad period, then why the need to vote for long-term increased welfare.

My problem with Welfare is that centralised government distribution is going to be inefficient (think of the deparments, admins, bureaucracy etc) and that most welfare should be provided by the family/community, especially in multicultural societies as the UK, where there are clearly many who care little about the country as a whole.

Welfare is only one area, the general problem is with Big Governments. In my opinion, Governments simply arent good enough to dictate to a large extent how we should live. Lets take education for instance. Some people here argue that Sex Education should be a private thing, and I agree with them. But not only Sex Ed, also the Arts (inc Music, Literature, Poetry), Religious Education and similar things need to be away from Government remit. Simply because they are inept at these areas. The extra free time could be used by children to develop in areas their families see as useful.

From my experience, state Religious, Sex, and Arts curriculum have been extremely poor.

Big Governments, (generous) welfare and increased state intervention only work in very homogeneous societies, where people believe in their governments. In Multicultural societies there isn't enough buy-in for these things not to cause problems.

I'm all for spending (investing) in defense and infrastructure and such things that would improve the country. But in general, I really believe a smaller (cheaper) government is better, especially in the UK.
- cosmicdancer
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Reply #133 - September 27, 2014, 09:59 PM

Quote from: mubs_352 on September 26, 2014, 11:57 AM
Right is right, hence the name

Groucho Marx?
- Stephen
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Reply #134 - September 27, 2014, 10:32 PM

Skywalker,

I think that we get too bound up in all this "left" & "right" wing business, and with party politics.

Thatcher was not my favourite person on Earth, but nor are any other politicians. My distrust of all politicians is very deep, and with good reason.

As I have said elsewhere on this site, the only true representation of the people would be by Direct Democracy.

I have no interest in voting for people who do not represent either my views or my interests, and point to the gulf between government policy and public opinion as an example of the betrayal felt by many voters.

If the public were allowed to vote on issues rather than for MP's, I strongly believe that they would become far more engaged in politics. I also believe that benefit fraud would cease to exist overnight.

Kind Regards,
Stephen.
- Villiage_Idiot
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Reply #135 - September 27, 2014, 11:30 PM

For those that advocate cutting off welfare benefits to people they personally feel are "cheats", what exactly are you advocating instead?

Say a teenage girl gets herself pregnant, as has been suggested that young girls are doing. There's no mention of the boy here, so I'm guessing he hasn't done anything wrong...

So, should we take this child away from it's mother and throw the rotten young girl out onto the street without any welfare? Is that how you would handle that situation? You don't want her to be allowed benefits, so what's the alternative? Think about it, people.

And don't you say that she wouldn't get herself pregnant if there wasn't the incentive of benefits, because teenage pregnancy is actually much less of a problem today than it was before benefits existed.

What should we do with her and her child?

In reality, a country works best when there is a "bottom line" payment. No matter what situation you end up in, there is a small amount of money available for shelter and food.

Some people will decide this small amount is enough to live on and they will become the "cheats" you hate so much. You can cut off 1000 benefits of people in genuine need to punish the couple of cheats, or you can just accept that just as with anything in life, some people will abuse it, the majority will not (because it's not enough money for them).

Honestly, this benefit money is available to everyone. If it's really such a good deal, why doesn't everyone go for it? The answer: Because it's really not that good a deal, and people who choose to live their lives on it do so because it's their only option (they're not good enough to make a better life).

A better education system is what improves poverty and poor decision making, not punishment.

Personally, even if a family is working, I don't understand why they need to have 14 children and the government has to pay for their public schooling, hospital/doctors/child health visit bills, etc. But I accept that most people aren't going to have this many children, so I'm not going to go overboard and say it's a crisis.

Let's have less judging and more practical suggestions.

The misspelling in my name is intentional, because I'm an idiot and I can't spell properly. But I'd probably also say that even if it was a mistake. Does that clear things up?
- mubs_352
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Reply #136 - September 28, 2014, 01:04 AM

First of all, the fact that the girl got pregnant in that situation is very much due to the Liberal (Leftist) culture we have accepted. Yes, I dont want her allowed benefits. She should live with her parents or Boyfriend and get help from them if needed. Or leave the kid with her parents and go to work. TBH I dont really care what happens to her.

You can't protect people from the consequences of their actions.

I live at my parents where houses cost 500K now. Just a few minutes walk away there is a neighbourhood where they are a little cheaper at 350K. But the people are totally different, the area is a crime hotspot, is dangerous, run-down and really not very nice. My father owns another house there and the family who rent it are on benefits. They get £600 a month housing benefit, plus other benefits too. So I think WTF, these guys are living off my taxes, and make me feel unsafe when I walk down there. If there was no benefits, that area could be done up and we could push the scum out to elsewhere, or theyd be forced to work and spend according to what they earn.
- suki
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Reply #137 - September 28, 2014, 01:06 AM

^I agree Stephen, the state pension is disgustingly low, it should be increased.

I think the people who milked the welfare system the most in the UK was the muslims, i noticed a trend where the husbands would make the wife pretend she is a single parent because the guys wage wasnt enough to pay for such a large family, or they wanted to run a small business so that they could opt out of employment with a company and keep their islamic lifestyle, the dress, long beards, be free to go to mosque throughout the day... nothing wrong with having a small business but it generally isnt enough to keep a large family of 5 plus. Anyway, the gov have imtoduced working tax credits a while ago to aid families and single people on lower incomes, nobody in the uk is allowed to claim free benefits anymore unless they are temporarily unemployed, sick or with small babies, everyone has to go to work, even single parents with small children, the gov is tacking the problem. The welfare system is a great idea, it has freed women and men from having to rely on a partner who provides, a happy two parent family is wonderful, i wish that is what i had with my children, but things go wrong, we can't all fit into the mould of the perfect marriage.

Ramble over lol
- suki
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Reply #138 - September 28, 2014, 01:13 AM

^Huh what about the guy that got her pregnant Mubs, what shall we do to him for punishment lol single moms only get state benefits for a few years these days, they must work like everyone else, i think by the time the child is 3 ? the rules have changed.

Being less well off doesnt make those neighbous of yours a threat lol.. I think you are a bit snobbish..Personally i would like to see council estates done away with, the poorer people should integrate with the rest of society and not be dumped into stinky ghettos, perhaps then they will feel like worthwhile human beings again.
- Villiage_Idiot
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Reply #139 - September 28, 2014, 01:24 AM

Quote from: mubs_352 on September 28, 2014, 01:04 AM
First of all, the fact that the girl got pregnant in that situation is very much due to the Liberal (Leftist) culture we have accepted. Yes, I dont want her allowed benefits. She should live with her parents or Boyfriend and get help from them if needed. Or leave the kid with her parents and go to work. TBH I dont really care what happens to her.

You can't protect people from the consequences of their actions.

The problem is that even though you don't care about what happens to this girl, she's still effecting others -and society. People in homelessness and poverty don't stop having children -just look at all the poverty in the world to see that. In fact, people in poverty have MORE children. This girl most likely has a family that don't care for her and a poor education. She will just become a street kid where she will have plenty more children.

Since there will be plenty people like her, they will form their own communities. Since they are receiving no benefits, they aren't required to send their children to school. The women and children resort to prostitution to support themselves, and they don't go a doctor when sick, creating health problems for the entire country. Let's go back to the 1800s, shall we?

Children born into these kind of circumstance have no chance, either. You say you don't care for the pregnant girl, but do you also not care about the many children who will have no hope in life after being born to these street kids?

Quote
I live at my parents where houses cost 500K now. Just a few minutes walk away there is a neighbourhood where they are a little cheaper at 350K. But the people are totally different, the area is a crime hotspot, is dangerous, run-down and really not very nice. My father owns another house there and the family who rent it are on benefits. They get £600 a month housing benefit, plus other benefits too. So I think WTF, these guys are living off my taxes, and make me feel unsafe when I walk down there. If there was no benefits, that area could be done up and we could push the scum out to elsewhere, or theyd be forced to work and spend according to what they earn.

People should be punished if they break the law and threaten others. I don't think punishing them by leaving them (and their innocent children) to Steal or Starve is the right punishment though.

The misspelling in my name is intentional, because I'm an idiot and I can't spell properly. But I'd probably also say that even if it was a mistake. Does that clear things up?
- suki
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Reply #140 - September 28, 2014, 01:38 AM

Quote
I live at my parents where houses cost 500K now.

Well lucky you, you've most likely never experienced any deprivation, poverty, abuse broken family etc, so it is best not to pass judgment on others unless you have been through it yourself, your life sounds priviledged.
- mubs_352
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Reply #141 - September 28, 2014, 01:45 AM

No, because London prices are sky-high now. Loads of very-working-class people on my road, inc my parents. My parents came from India with probably the same 'privilege' as any other South Asian Immigrant. Some of my relatives took benefits, but if it wasnt there, they would still have been ok.
- Villiage_Idiot
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Reply #142 - September 28, 2014, 01:55 AM

Quote
TBH I dont really care what happens to her.

And this is the real difference between the right and left wing. Right here.

I care about what happens to EVERYONE, and I want to see everyone succeed and have a good quality of life.

Conservatives just enjoy to take vengeance on anyone they deem unworthy to have a good life. It's their sport.

I support a "bottom line" payment for anyone. It shouldn't be party money, but it should be enough to survive on. Everyone deserves basic food and shelter.

The misspelling in my name is intentional, because I'm an idiot and I can't spell properly. But I'd probably also say that even if it was a mistake. Does that clear things up?
- suki
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Reply #143 - September 28, 2014, 02:11 AM

Quote from: mubs_352 on September 28, 2014, 01:45 AM
No, because London prices are sky-high now. Loads of very-working-class people on my road, inc my parents. My parents came from India with probably the same 'privilege' as any other South Asian Immigrant. Some of my relatives took benefits, but if it wasnt there, they would still have been ok.

Right, i see.. well you're still priviledged to have good parents that care about you
- paul_tarsus
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Reply #144 - September 28, 2014, 02:27 AM

An interesting episode occurred on a libertarian forum I frequent. Sharia law and jizya (sp?) was praised. Cue angry libertarians crying, "I'd die before I submit/pay one cent."
- allat
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Reply #145 - September 28, 2014, 02:41 AM

Quote from: mubs_352 on September 28, 2014, 01:04 AM
First of all, the fact that the girl got pregnant in that situation is very much due to the Liberal (Leftist) culture we have accepted. Yes, I dont want her allowed benefits. She should live with her parents or Boyfriend and get help from them if needed. Or leave the kid with her parents and go to work. TBH I dont really care what happens to her.

You can't protect people from the consequences of their actions.

I live at my parents where houses cost 500K now. Just a few minutes walk away there is a neighbourhood where they are a little cheaper at 350K. But the people are totally different, the area is a crime hotspot, is dangerous, run-down and really not very nice. My father owns another house there and the family who rent it are on benefits. They get £600 a month housing benefit, plus other benefits too. So I think WTF, these guys are living off my taxes, and make me feel unsafe when I walk down there. If there was no benefits, that area could be done up and we could push the scum out to elsewhere, or theyd be forced to work and spend according to what they earn.

Well nobody gives a shit about what happens to fascists who go on internet forums and argue with strangers about 'scum' who happen to come from poverty and don't have the fucking luxury of having parents who own two 500k houses.

"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
- allat
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Reply #146 - September 28, 2014, 02:42 AM

Quote from: mubs_352 on September 28, 2014, 01:45 AM
No, because London prices are sky-high now. Loads of very-working-class people on my road, inc my parents. My parents came from India with probably the same 'privilege' as any other South Asian Immigrant. Some of my relatives took benefits, but if it wasnt there, they would still have been ok.

You don't know that. Thank our lucky stars you have no power in the world you live in. Fascists like you should remain on the restricted list of everything in life. Go cry over everything at your parents' villa while you suck on the silver spoon you were born with and look down upon those who were born with less than you.

"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
- allat
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Reply #147 - September 28, 2014, 02:46 AM

This fascist who has supported slavery, honour killings, patriarchal bullshit and getting rid of 'scum' aka poor people is gone from this forum permanently.

"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
- lua
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Reply #148 - September 28, 2014, 04:02 AM

Later, mubs.
- Stephen
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Reply #149 - September 28, 2014, 03:57 PM

As I have previously stated, I support a welfare system which provides for the basic needs of the unfortunates in society. Anyone who is born with some mental or physical defect should, of course, be looked after properly. The same is applicable to any who suffer illness or accidental injury.

That, however, is a far cry from supporting people who are simply idle and feckless. If some people are not prepared to contribute to society, there is no good reason for society to support them.

The Welfare State was intended only to support those who were unable to support themselves, not to act as a free source of cash for those who just can't be bothered to work.

Liberals on this site appear to support hand outs for everyone, irrespective of their attitudes to work and society. All this needs paying for, and the liberal position demands that everyone stumps up the cash to pay for their utopian ideals.

My message to them is clear and simple: If you want to support people who behave irresponsibly throughout their lives and who are nothing but a burden on society, please dip your hands in your own pockets to pay for it, and keep them out of mine.

It is fine and dandy for anyone to hold a contrary view on these matters, but not when you expect others to pay for those views. Your charitable inclinations are a matter for your own conscience; just don't expect others to meekly follow.

I note that Mubs has now been barred from this site, and that this was done in an immoderate way. Use of the term "fascist", especially on an open forum, seems to me highly questionable, and could expose the user to accusations of libel. Nor does the use of bad language have any place in informing people that someone has been barred.

I didn't like all that Mubs wrote, but I see no justification for the manner of his removal. This may leave me liable for the same treatment, but I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees. It seems to me that removal from this site rests on whim, and depends to a large degree on whether or not your face fits.

Kind Regards,
Stephen.
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