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Theme Changer

 Topic: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam

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  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #30 - December 01, 2008, 05:47 AM

    lol

    That's probably a defensive muslim you're talking about. I guess you never know though.  Tongue

    Unless you explain how it's a theory it still relies on psychology (and more).

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #31 - December 06, 2008, 04:37 PM

    Sorry Panoptic, I completely missed that excellent post earlier.


    @Baal. Here is my basic assessment.

    What you say as a description is completely correct. If someone clings onto a religion they do so for a reason that proves, as you put it, is of service to them. But I'm not saying the problem is assumed rationality, as such. The problem is that you are being circular thus far. What you need to do to develop your observation into a theory of religion is to give it a consistency by which it can provide a totality of explanation.

    My theory does not apply on the religion or the belief itself, it applies on the human. My theory can be used on capitalism and socialism and nationalism as well. It is always a balance between perceived threats and perceived services. And any ideology, will have built-in mechanisms to provide a perceived service (often by actually providing a real service, sometimes by providing a racket), and mechanisms to provide a perceived threat (often by emphasizing on an existing threat).

    Is the theory circular? I can not see the circle and I am trying hard (please identify the circle). I can see that my theory is too generic, but so is the assumption that, if we are to make some good arguments against pedophilia, then we will 'win' when arguing with a muslim.

    That may be religion in relation to other 'ideologies' but then it needs refining to deploy itself to that extent. So far it has to -rely- on psychology - so it cannot account for things in the way psychology does, even if that psychology may itself make for a superficial representation of actual interests, which I admit it can.

    I covered the relation of psychology to my theory in the previous post before I saw this post I am replying to. Yes, Psychology can be used to account and for reprogramming. Psychology is to be used to define what services a certain person want and/or need. It can also be used to define what threats the person perceives.

    i.e.: Psychology:  Tom invested (through Rackets to collect resources from followers) too much into the mormon church that now he is getting back the prestige (service) here on earth and hopefully the after-life reward. He does not not care much for the after-life, but the prestige on Earth is very important to his personality type.

    In a generaliseable way it could actually be a totalising theory (at least within a dominant-type famework, such as memetics). The merit is that makes religion an open-ended source of services to individual interests it is to that extent a collective investment as much as it as individual one. So it could be more nuanced.

    Trying to relate services and rackets to memes. A good idea, will give it a try.

    That patriarchy harms men and doesn't just benefit them is also a very good point. Unfortunately a rare one.

    Yep, psychology will tell us if this point should be used, or whether we are facing a certain type of fathers and then just telling him how patriarchy will harm his daughter might be enough.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #32 - December 06, 2008, 08:34 PM

    There are many more psychological effects of being a Muslim.  Such as the constant threat of hell fire at the back of your mind, or feeling really guilty when you miss a daytime prayer or not waking up for fajr or questioning the Quran or listening to music or befriending a non-Muslim or eating non-halal meat..... etc *I can go on*

    I no longer have any of these "guilts" now, so the psychological effects of leaving Islam have been very positive. Smiley

    Dead right, Shahid. Guilt whilst you're in a religion and regret once you're out,  until you can wrench yourself free of that too. Then it's great.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #33 - May 01, 2009, 02:02 PM

    I didn't want to start a new thread since this one is pretty good - just old.

    I'm going through this now. I feel that I was actually in a better condition while I was Muslim - minus the time I was married. While I practiced I didn't need my antidepressants or sleeping pills, was generally cheerful, and was actually nicer than I am now and more open.

    However, I'm wondering if the changes (needing multiple meds to function, serious depressive bouts, sudden dislike of people, etc.) are more from the abuse and rejection that eventually taught me that Islam is not for me. I mean to say, I'm depressed because of the way I was treated, not because of my lack of faith. 
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #34 - May 01, 2009, 02:10 PM

    Your next stage will probably be anger.  After that you should be home & dry.  Smiley

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  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #35 - May 01, 2009, 03:07 PM

    Your next stage will probably be anger.  After that you should be home & dry.  Smiley


    I was angry when I first left. I've been depressed for about two years now.
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #36 - May 01, 2009, 03:11 PM

    and the depression is due to other people's reaction to your apostacy, because you miss Islam, or something else?

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  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #37 - May 01, 2009, 08:07 PM

    and the depression is due to other people's reaction to your apostacy, because you miss Islam, or something else?


    As I said in my initial post, I'm not sure.
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #38 - May 02, 2009, 01:22 AM

    One effect I've observed in myself is an increase in anxiety, fear and panic-attacks over all sorts of daily matters, both minor and major. The sorts of things that I might have deferred to God and trusted that he would "make it all turn out ok"

    Of course it's difficult to separate what is specifically a result of rejecting Islam and what is simply a result of other factors and I have always been a worrier.

    But I am much more anxious, insecure and fearful of things 'going wrong' than I used to be and I think the feeling that there is no Divine safety net is a factor. (Even though I do believe in God - that belief is too undefined to provide much comfort.)

    Hassan, I also had a LOT of anxiety when I first left Islam. Constant panic attacks. It's because one has nurtured all these subconscious fears and built up an elaborate edifice of beliefs to cope with those fears and keep them out of one's conscious experience. Once you abandon the edifice of fixed beliefs, your coping mechanism is gone ... your fortress collapses ... and all the subconscious fears that had been buried for years come up into conscious experience and have to be faced and dealt with. It took me a few years, together with some serious meditation practice, to learn how to control the fear.

    It is ironic but the whole experience reminds me of Rumi's statement: "Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it." For me, fixed beliefs and intellectual fortresses are precisely the barriers to finding a place of self-acceptance and calm within. People build these things to protect themselves from their own fears. But after a while one has to let these things go and grow out of these coping mechanisms to move into the next stage in life's journey.
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #39 - May 02, 2009, 01:27 AM

    As I am still in the confusion state, I still do not know what to look ahead to... but its been years of struggling for me, the decision to leave was just the tip of the iceberg... as you know most of us know more about islam than the average muslim, but I have always asked myself... if I reached this conclusion, why didn't the so called scholars discover it?

    One thing to remember is that many religious traditionalists are actually reacting to what they perceive as the moral degradation brought about by modernity. Many people retreat into traditional religion despite being very intelligent because they are put off by what they see as the excesses of modernity: unrestrained and unrestricted sexual liberation, unregulated capitalism, rampant individualism and irresponsibility, the breakdown of the traditional family, the rise of women, the lack of certainty due to the abandonment of traditional authorities, etc. This moral panic is, I think, one of the main reasons why people stay orthodoxly religious despite the foolish aspects of all religions.

    I'll grant traditionalists some of the above points as valid, but their own traditionalist ideologies are hardly a solution to these problems. They romanticize history and theocracy. Returning to a traditional theocratic age will not solve anything, nor was such an age ever remarkably better than modernity and postmodernity. It might have been simpler and more stable, but that sort of faux-stability based on fixed and unquestioned dogmas, on childish illusions, is not something that can stand the test of time.

    On the whole people are just terrified of the future and of the unknown, and simply find it more conducive to their personal emotional security to retreat back into the comfortable certainties of traditional religion.
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #40 - May 02, 2009, 09:18 PM

    One effect I've observed in myself is an increase in anxiety, fear and panic-attacks over all sorts of daily matters, both minor and major. The sorts of things that I might have deferred to God and trusted that he would "make it all turn out ok"

    Of course it's difficult to separate what is specifically a result of rejecting Islam and what is simply a result of other factors and I have always been a worrier.

    But I am much more anxious, insecure and fearful of things 'going wrong' than I used to be and I think the feeling that there is no Divine safety net is a factor. (Even though I do believe in God - that belief is too undefined to provide much comfort.)

    Hassan, I also had a LOT of anxiety when I first left Islam. Constant panic attacks. It's because one has nurtured all these subconscious fears and built up an elaborate edifice of beliefs to cope with those fears and keep them out of one's conscious experience. Once you abandon the edifice of fixed beliefs, your coping mechanism is gone ... your fortress collapses ... and all the subconscious fears that had been buried for years come up into conscious experience and have to be faced and dealt with. It took me a few years, together with some serious meditation practice, to learn how to control the fear.

    It is ironic but the whole experience reminds me of Rumi's statement: "Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it." For me, fixed beliefs and intellectual fortresses are precisely the barriers to finding a place of self-acceptance and calm within. People build these things to protect themselves from their own fears. But after a while one has to let these things go and grow out of these coping mechanisms to move into the next stage in life's journey.


    Thanks Ned - if it was just me, maybe I could cope better - learn to meditate (I am useless I can't keep external thoughts out), or something. But I have 4 kids to worry about - all going through their own tough shit and mums are absent, so anxiety and stress cannot be meditated away that easily - and not only no certain God to hold on to but, the thought that I am to be punished simply wont go away completely :(
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #41 - May 07, 2009, 04:43 AM

    The psychological effects have been awesome for me.

    I am not bound by any guilt conscience, any irrational fear of the unknown, or any taboo or any indoctrination any more. My questioning has become free and all-encompassing and my mind is clear and open to everything possible. Even nationalism isnt important to me anymore because of my new thought process which questions forcibly established norms and nonsense.

    Plus I love Manchester United even more grin12

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #42 - May 07, 2009, 08:05 AM

    Even nationalism isnt important to me anymore because of my new thought process which questions forcibly established norms and nonsense.

    In that case, why did you use your national flag as your avatar?  Huh?

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  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #43 - May 07, 2009, 10:01 AM



    Thanks Ned - if it was just me, maybe I could cope better - learn to meditate (I am useless I can't keep external thoughts out), or something. But I have 4 kids to worry about - all going through their own tough shit and mums are absent, so anxiety and stress cannot be meditated away that easily - and not only no certain God to hold on to but, the thought that I am to be punished simply wont go away completely :(


    I think that's interesting.  I'm coming at that from the totally opposite direction... from not having a religious background to being interested in God.  But one of the key reasons I haven't been able to accept any (western) religion - and start reaping their cozy benefits -  is that I simply cannot accept the fact that we'd be punished for not believing one thing or another.  If I ever did accept one of those religions... the doubt in hell is what I'm sure would persist for me.
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #44 - May 11, 2009, 03:41 AM


    and not only no certain God to hold on to but, the thought that I am to be punished simply wont go away completely :(


    Well, try to take comfort in the fact that you'll share your punishment with the majority of the world-you for being a murtad, billions of others for not being born Muslim & not reverting to Islam, & if the Christian God is true-you'd still be punished & again share that punishment with the world's majority-you for rejecting Sparky & other missionaries' attempts to "save" you, the other people in the world for not being born Christian & not accepting Christ!

    Its bound to be a jolly good punishemnt-with the company of loads of freethinkers, some excellent people not belonging to Christianity or Islam, many apostates & some devout Muslims\Christians who are shell shocked to discover that all their life's piety was in vain as they selected the wrong God! fest42

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #45 - August 10, 2009, 08:48 AM

    One effect I've observed in myself is an increase in anxiety, fear and panic-attacks over all sorts of daily matters, both minor and major. The sorts of things that I might have deferred to God and trusted that he would "make it all turn out ok"

    Of course it's difficult to separate what is specifically a result of rejecting Islam and what is simply a result of other factors and I have always been a worrier.

    But I am much more anxious, insecure and fearful of things 'going wrong' than I used to be and I think the feeling that there is no Divine safety net is a factor. (Even though I do believe in God - that belief is too undefined to provide much comfort.)



    I had anxiety when I was a muslim. Nothing much has changed in that department. Although my anxiety was more of a burden then simply because the doubts used to disturb me and I wanted them to go away. I really wanted it to be true and the idea of the existence of a creator seemed comforting. I didn't leave Islam once but it was an evolution so I didn't suffer that badly. Although I did physically feel sick and vomited once I had made a conscious decision. Once those rose tinted glasses had come off, I looked at myself and noticed how much bigotry I had in me. I often used to speak to my friends when I was muslim and would often tell them that our views would be considered bigoted. They just said that we are looking at it with a western perspective by thinking like that. It's just that we have different set of ethics and morals and we see them as absolute and not arbitrary.
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #46 - August 21, 2009, 06:39 AM

    For me the psychological effects of having left Islam are that I am much more relaxed, confident, I don't have irrational fears, I can see things for what they really are and not attribute them to some supernatural force, I am more tolerant, I have a greater desire to understand the human mind and the physical world, etc.

    Basically it has been a very very positive effect!

    Z



    Same here, the only psychological effect is just the exile from my family and close muslim family friends whenever it comes the time to tell them (in a much later stage in life more-so), which will depress me. I mean my mom already doesn't treat me the same even tho she tries, and she's the most tolerant one in my family....

    Closets after closets
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #47 - August 30, 2009, 08:16 PM

    Interesting read.

    It's made me:
    - very critical of people/religions/cultures/ideas
    - probably the want to lose touch with a lot my religious family
    - changed perception on life: try and leave the world a better place (work hard, enjoy life, help others)
    - perhaps a bit too critical and forget the power of beliefs. I watched this and was just thinking "Oh come on, for goodness sakes!!".
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #48 - August 30, 2009, 08:29 PM

    Quote
    Interesting read.

    It's made me:
    - very critical of people/religions/cultures/ideas
    - probably the want to lose touch with a lot my religious family
    - changed perception on life: try and leave the world a better place (work hard, enjoy life, help others)
    - perhaps a bit too critical and forget the power of beliefs. I watched this and was just thinking "Oh come on, for goodness sakes!!".


    My only anxiety at the moment is that my wife isn't on the same page as me. I want her to be at least interested. Not for her sake for for the kids. So that there isn't a conflict of interest. I really don't want the kids to learn any mumbo jumbo. I've had enough!
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #49 - August 30, 2009, 08:44 PM

    My only anxiety at the moment is that my wife isn't on the same page as me. I want her to be at least interested. Not for her sake for for the kids. So that there isn't a conflict of interest. I really don't want the kids to learn any mumbo jumbo. I've had enough!


    I totally get how you feel 20years- its so frustrating when people dont seem to understand the blindingly obvious.  

    I had a good day with regards to religion today.  

    Yet another person (who is a family friend) we know died and I went to the mosque to pay my last respects.  I went to give my commiserations to the deceased mans son, who has a foot long beard  and was standing in the front line to offer prayers.  He asked if I wanted to join, and I said I'd rather not (I'm sick of pretending).  He said thats fine (he knows where I stand with religion), so I began to read Ibn Warraq's Why I am not a Muslim at the back of the mosque  Cheesy

    Anyhow I later went to the family home, and he said in front of a group of uncles that he had a lot of respect for me for being honest and coming to the mosque for his dad despite my beliefs.  I said I came because thats what the deceased would have wanted me to do.

    It goes to prove not all muslims fit our preconceptions of them.

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  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #50 - August 30, 2009, 08:54 PM

    My only anxiety at the moment is that my wife isn't on the same page as me. I want her to be at least interested. Not for her sake for for the kids. So that there isn't a conflict of interest. I really don't want the kids to learn any mumbo jumbo. I've had enough!


    I know how you feel. I am worried about my kids getting all that crap from my ex. They will be coming home next Wednesday and I'm sure will be asking why I'm not fasting, praying etc... like mummy.
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #51 - August 30, 2009, 08:56 PM

    I totally get how you feel 20years- its so frustrating when people dont seem to understand the blindingly obvious.  

    I had a good day with regards to religion today.  

    Yet another person (who is a family friend) we know died and I went to the mosque to pay my last respects.  I went to give my commiserations to the deceased mans son, who has a foot long beard  and was standing in the front line to offer prayers.  He asked if I wanted to join, and I said I'd rather not (I'm sick of pretending).  He said thats fine (he knows where I stand with religion), so I began to read Ibn Warraq's Why I am not a Muslim at the back of the mosque  Cheesy

    Anyhow I later went to the family home, and he said in front of a group of uncles that he had a lot of respect for me for being honest and coming to the mosque for his dad despite my beliefs.  I said I came because thats what the deceased would have wanted me to do.

    It goes to prove not all muslims fit our preconceptions of them.


    It also shows how important it is for us to care for and have respect for others.

    Good your you IsLame Smiley
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #52 - August 30, 2009, 09:01 PM

    I know how you feel. I am worried about my kids getting all that crap from my ex. They will be coming home next Wednesday and I'm sure will be asking why I'm not fasting, praying etc... like mummy.

    So what will you say - "Because we are all not the same, and different people believe in different things"?

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  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #53 - August 30, 2009, 09:18 PM

    So what will you say - "Because we are all not the same, and different people believe in different things"?


    Pretty much. I am always honest with my kids. They know I am not a Muslim like Mummy - though they still question me about it and don't completely understand (they are 8 & 9 after all).

    But after 6 weeks of Islam from their mum they will be coming back a bit confused and perhaps eager to tell me to be a good Muslim - at least my little daughter will as she considers herself Muslim. My 9 year old son says he's "Nothing (meaning no religion) - like Baba (dad)"  Cheesy
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #54 - August 30, 2009, 09:22 PM

    Quote
    I totally get how you feel 20years- its so frustrating when people dont seem to understand the blindingly obvious.  

    I had a good day with regards to religion today.  

    Yet another person (who is a family friend) we know died and I went to the mosque to pay my last respects.  I went to give my commiserations to the deceased mans son, who has a foot long beard  and was standing in the front line to offer prayers.  He asked if I wanted to join, and I said I'd rather not (I'm sick of pretending).  He said thats fine (he knows where I stand with religion), so I began to read Ibn Warraq's Why I am not a Muslim at the back of the mosque  Cheesy

    Anyhow I later went to the family home, and he said in front of a group of uncles that he had a lot of respect for me for being honest and coming to the mosque for his dad despite my beliefs.  I said I came because thats what the deceased would have wanted me to do.

    It goes to prove not all muslims fit our preconceptions of them.


    Firstly. Condolences. Secondly it's refreshing to read what you wrote above. It is hard to judge though how people might react when you tell them.
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #55 - August 30, 2009, 09:46 PM

    unfortunately they dont react the same way, but they should, so the guilt is of my shoulders

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  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #56 - August 30, 2009, 10:58 PM

    @IsLame: Condolences also, & nice to hear there are respectful Muslims like that.

    @20yearstoolong, Hassan: Guys I feel for you both. Kids are far more susceptible. But I suppose the positive side is this: they have your genes and will one day think similarly to yourselves too.

    What's the possibility of your kids making it to something like camp quest?
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #57 - August 30, 2009, 11:01 PM

    Quote
    unfortunately they dont react the same way, but they should, so the guilt is of my shoulders


    I went shopping today with the missus and whilst out we had something to eat. There were obviously muslims about doing their shopping for eid. They were going about their own business, which is the way it should be. There are some who do stare and talk, but they are in the minority.
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #58 - August 30, 2009, 11:04 PM

    your missus is not fasting?  Dont get why muslims are staring, how do they know your not Hindu, Buddhist, Christian etc?

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  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #59 - August 30, 2009, 11:07 PM

    Quote
    your missus is not fasting?  Dont get why muslims are staring, how do they know your not Hindu, Buddhist, Christian etc?


    I think the wifes head scarf and shalwar kameez gives it away dance
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