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 Topic: I have a theory about ex-muslims...

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  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #30 - January 29, 2011, 08:30 PM
    Quote from: hypocrucifier on January 28, 2011, 08:49 PM
    Indeed!It seems to be an obsession with detractors.



    I think this particular obsession reflects on the mentality of the detractors. It's as if they are projecting.
    Quote from: billy on February 13, 2011, 02:13 PM
    "And lo, verily hath they spoken, not one of this tribe, upon whom these entreaties were beseeched for the Lord, could giveth a shit."


    Read my blog here: http://dimunituvediva.wordpress.com/
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #31 - January 29, 2011, 09:44 PM
    Good break down. They aren't mutually exclusive so I'd say for me ...

    i) Poor role model converter - 35%

    ii)  Opportunistic converter - 15%

    iii)  Ideological converter - 50%

    I think ii) is the least because via cognitive dissonance you can mostly have all of this, and many Muslim moderates do. i) I up there because let's face it Islam is highly backwards and unfashionable. But iii) gets the lion share since evolution, the big bang and pragmatism blows Islam out of the water!
    Hear ye -->> DONATE TO CEMB

    Relativism | Cognitive dissonance | Cognitive biases | Memeplex | Consequentialism
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #32 - January 29, 2011, 09:47 PM
    iv) There are no Ex-Muslims, it is impossible. The error and the straight path have become manifest, thus death penalty for apostasy is an oxymoron.

    v) Insanity. This is the only rational way of leaving Al-Islaam, the manifest truth. No rational explanation may exist for exchanging eternal bliss for a temporary pleasure. However no one can be punished for insanity, thus making any penalty for apostasy insane itself.
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #33 - January 29, 2011, 10:12 PM
    Quote from: conwaytwitty on January 29, 2011, 08:30 PM

    I think this particular obsession reflects on the mentality of the detractors. It's as if they are projecting.


    Yep! The desperate hidden desires of the hopelessly frustrated! But I won't be too surprised if the loudest noises come from those followers who secretly indulge in carnal delights.
    Hypocrisy is the illegitimate off spring of extreme self-righteousness.
    BTW I still can't believe that an intelligent person like you slipped and fell into this bog of cant.
     Verily! The human mind is very complex.


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #34 - January 29, 2011, 10:18 PM
    .
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #35 - January 29, 2011, 10:25 PM
    Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on January 29, 2011, 09:47 PM
    iv) There are no Ex-Muslims, it is impossible. The error and the straight path have become manifest, thus death penalty for apostasy is an oxymoron.

    v) Insanity. This is the only rational way of leaving Al-Islaam, the manifest truth. No rational explanation may exist for exchanging eternal bliss for a temporary pleasure. However no one can be punished for insanity, thus making any penalty for apostasy insane itself.


    By the laws of the real world ,I admit you have clinched your case. But unfortunately as we are dealing with supernatural matters that have an influence on the real world, I regret to inform you that these things fall outside the purview of your 'court' and as such it has  no jurisdiction to adjudicate!


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #36 - January 29, 2011, 10:27 PM
    Quote from: Mount A Bison on January 29, 2011, 10:18 PM
    Put me down for two and three guys with a heavy leaning on two. I left Islam for a girl and that's the truth. I had been reading Bertrand Russell enough to be nudged in the agnostic direction but it was a girl who pushed me over the fence. Later came the justification for my incredulity.

    David Hume was right: Reason is the slave of the passions. Any man who tells me that he came to his religious persuasion through sheer power of the intellect is either lying, stupid or both. Emotion. That's all.

    @MAB:
    Do we make any decisions in life based purely on reason?
    And of course, let's not forget that Muslims remain in Islam largely because they are too tied up with the culture/identity, and they are emotionally attached with the faith.
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #37 - January 29, 2011, 11:00 PM
    Quote from: Mount A Bison on January 29, 2011, 10:18 PM
    Put me down for two and three guys with a heavy leaning on two. I left Islam for a girl and that's the truth. I had been reading Bertrand Russell enough to be nudged in the agnostic direction but it was a girl who pushed me over the fence. Later came the justification for my incredulity.

    David Hume was right: Reason is the slave of the passions. Any man who tells me that he came to his religious persuasion through sheer power of the intellect is either lying, stupid or both. Emotion. That's all.

    Intellect frees reason from those passions that might ultimately destroy it.But a passion that makes a mind obsessively seek  the truth is the underpinning of reason.
    It is intellect that helps you spot that hairy Fatima without a heavy baggage of religion.As you let her seduction breach your defenses even as you joyfully fall a victim to her charms,
    the ecstasy that you experience when you manfully suck on her delicious nipples will be one that won't bring joy to towelheads or any other heads except the heads that matter!


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #38 - January 29, 2011, 11:05 PM
    Quote from: ateapotist on January 29, 2011, 10:27 PM
    @MAB:
    Do we make any decisions in life based purely on reason?
    And of course, let's not forget that Muslims remain in Islam largely because they are too tied up with the culture/identity, and they are emotionally attached with the faith.


    You are right! most of the time we don't ,that's why decisions like these are so difficult.


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #39 - January 29, 2011, 11:16 PM
    I'm not an ex-Muslim, but if a Muslim were to try and convince me to join, My main turn off, as silly as this may sound, are all the rules and rituals, I just don't think human beings are meant to be under such strict restriction, in the end it causes problems.
    I was on youtube and almost ex-muslim video, someone claims that they are fake? What's up with that? Is that common? Like you say, I'm an ex-Muslim and someone replies no, you were never Muslim to begin with etc...
    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #40 - January 29, 2011, 11:18 PM
    Quote from: hypocrucifier on January 29, 2011, 10:25 PM
    By the laws of the real world ,I admit you have clinched your case. But unfortunately as we are dealing with supernatural matters that have an influence on the real world, I regret to inform you that these things fall outside the purview of your 'court' and as such it has  no jurisdiction to adjudicate!


    Fine, I'll give you one kiss now, but nothing more until you show me a blood diamond.
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #41 - January 29, 2011, 11:20 PM
    Sakura, you're too smart for your age - I can't figure you out. And yes, you are right.
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #42 - January 29, 2011, 11:24 PM
    Quote from: Sakura02 on January 29, 2011, 11:16 PM
    I was on youtube and almost ex-muslim video, someone claims that they are fake? What's up with that? Is that common? Like you say, I'm an ex-Muslim and someone replies no, you were never a Muslim to begin with etc...

    Zionist-Christian conspiracy or No True Scotsman.

    Pick your choice.
    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #43 - January 30, 2011, 12:20 AM
    ^  +1

    Admittedly, there probably are a few fake Christian ex-Muslims out there, but they are nowhere near as many as Muslims like to think.  As for us ex-Muslims on this forum, some Muslims say we were never true Muslims to begin with (No True Scotsman).  Well, to respond to that I would say what does it take to be a 'true' Muslim, and how many of the Muslims in the world today are fully practising and fully knowledgeable on Islam.  I bet not many.  Hence, most Muslims today are not 'true' Muslims.  Ta-da!
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #44 - January 30, 2011, 12:24 AM
    I find it fascinating that you proved something that neither you nor your possible opponent would believe in. How is that possible?
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #45 - January 30, 2011, 12:36 AM
    That's what Muslims mean when they say you were never a true Muslim to begin with. i.e. that you were not a fully practising Muslim and your knowledge of Islam was lacking, and you weren't a devout believer.
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #46 - January 30, 2011, 12:40 AM
    Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on January 29, 2011, 09:47 PM
    iv) There are no Ex-Muslims, it is impossible. The error and the straight path have become manifest, thus death penalty for apostasy is an oxymoron.

    v) Insanity. This is the only rational way of leaving Al-Islaam, the manifest truth. No rational explanation may exist for exchanging eternal bliss for a temporary pleasure. However no one can be punished for insanity, thus making any penalty for apostasy insane itself.


    are you sure? Wink
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #47 - January 30, 2011, 12:50 AM
    i)   Poor role model converter - I think this played a small role. Muslims' answer to this: "don't judge Islam by Muslims!" It took awhile to see through this. I think the fact that most Muslims I knew were either very stressed/paranoid all the time or so far in cognitive dissonance land one might think they had MPD

    Just before I left Islam I started attending some circles in the local masjid run by salafi brothers, who were so far gone from reality that I can't deny that they had an inverse-dawah effect on me.

    ii)  Opportunistic converter - This had no role for me, even though this is what most Muslims accuse us of being - essentially hedonists who can't control our lower desires.

    iii)  Ideological converter  - This for me was the main thrust of my apostasy. Reason, basic human reason, led me out of that dark cave. The science followed and sealed the cave shut.
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #48 - January 30, 2011, 12:55 AM
    Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on January 30, 2011, 12:40 AM
    are you sure? Wink

    Philosophically-speaking it would be fair to say there are no ex-Muslims, but at the same time one ought to say there are no Muslims either.  But like many other topics, philosophers have one definition, and everyone else has another. Smiley
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #49 - January 30, 2011, 01:03 AM
    Quote from: Mount A Bison on January 29, 2011, 10:18 PM
    Put me down for two and three guys with a heavy leaning on two. I left Islam for a girl and that's the truth. I had been reading Bertrand Russell enough to be nudged in the agnostic direction but it was a girl who pushed me over the fence. Later came the justification for my incredulity.



    Thank you for sharing such a personal story, MAB.

    Unfortunately, this sincere and open reasoning is simply wrong. Justification could not have come after apostasy.

    Why do so many of us put iii) as the main reason? Because until you go through iii) you are a Muslim. If you're influenced by i) you're a bitter Muslim; if you're influenced by ii) you're a wicked non-practicing Muslim, but Muslim non the less. Only when you reach iii) only then you become an Ex-Muslim. Of course it does not mean that i) and ii) had no influence in escaping Islam (as is clear that is does from the quote). One can be an alcoholic, fornicator, but let them receive a 100 lashes and back to the mosque they go sincerely repenting.  After iii) one is a doomed munafiq. Any reason besides iii) is not possible as the final nail in the coffin of apostasy iman.
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #50 - January 30, 2011, 06:40 AM
    Quote from: hypocrucifier on January 29, 2011, 10:12 PM
    Yep! The desperate hidden desires of the hopelessly frustrated! But I won't be too surprised if the loudest noises come from those followers who secretly indulge in carnal delights.
    Hypocrisy is the illegitimate off spring of extreme self-righteousness.
    BTW I still can't believe that an intelligent person like you slipped and fell into this bog of cant.
     Verily! The human mind is very complex.


    Hypocrisy indeed. A Muslim brother called me a whore for my apostasy...yet this same person "struggles" with a porn addiction. Go figure!

    As for my unfortunate journey into Islam-believe me, I've had plenty of moments where I have questioned it myself. I certainly feel that I allowed myself to believe the "Islam is THE CURE!!!" nonsense and paid way too much attention the dawahganda.
    Quote from: billy on February 13, 2011, 02:13 PM
    "And lo, verily hath they spoken, not one of this tribe, upon whom these entreaties were beseeched for the Lord, could giveth a shit."


    Read my blog here: http://dimunituvediva.wordpress.com/
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #51 - January 30, 2011, 06:56 AM
    Hypo, don't you think looking at human history, that it is more normal for a human to be religious at some point in their life, to have an existential crisis at some point in their life, to underestimate others' abilities to deceive at some point in their life? Or is it more normal to never experience these and be completely rational all the time? Does any of it have anything to do with our intellect?
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #52 - January 30, 2011, 10:56 AM
    Muslims shake their heads at apostates because of Pascal's wager and the steep price of leaving Islam (execution in the hadith!). They don't understand that modern civilization protects ex-Muslims, and they usually have very limited insight into how nature works and science in general.

    I would say that if most Muslims I know are in the 1) and 2) category. Only when a person undergoes a number 3) journey, can we really call them ex-Muslim.
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #53 - January 30, 2011, 04:55 PM
    .
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #54 - January 30, 2011, 05:43 PM
    Quote from: raison on January 30, 2011, 10:56 AM


    I would say that if most Muslims I know are in the 1) and 2) category. Only when a person undergoes a number 3) journey, can we really call them ex-Muslim.


    There are laws for plagiarism, Raison!
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #55 - January 30, 2011, 05:56 PM
    Mount a Bison,

    I am disappointed to hear that you oppose the death penalty. Then again you don't have Russian blood in you, you are not a scion of Ivan the Terrible.

    In any case, I see you tricked me into earlier response, by not saying all this in the first place. Genius!
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #56 - January 30, 2011, 06:15 PM
    .
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #57 - January 30, 2011, 06:25 PM
    I will throw a non-binding resolution at you, if that does not help, I will serenade you just outside your property line, and if that does not help I will report your racist bigoted bullshit to the mods.  Wink
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #58 - January 30, 2011, 06:30 PM
    .
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #59 - January 30, 2011, 06:34 PM
    You make me blush, old man, just like I did when a young shapely teacher molested me in her office after school hours. Only memories are left now, but I feel the excitement I haven't felt for so long...
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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