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 Topic: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?

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  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #30 - January 05, 2009, 08:29 PM
    Quote from: Zaephon on January 05, 2009, 06:22 PM
    there was very little support for Jews kicked out from Arab lands


    An is that supposed to justify Palestinians being thrown out of their lands? Two wrongs make a right?

    Again, you remind me of conversations I had with some Muslims. They said that we can treat others the way they treat us.

    I reject that morality. That is the law of the jungle.

    I am told - time and time again - that Israel is above the morality of the terrorists. They are the beacon of light in a dark sea of Muslim Barbarians. The outpost of Freedom, Justice, Pluralism. The only true Democracy in the Middle East.

    I hear the Israeli prime minister saying "Who would not defend themselves from being attacked in their homes".

    He's quite right.

    What about the Palestinians?

    What would you regard as a justifiable response to being driven from their homes?

    Massive air, sea, and land bombardment of Israel?

    No, of course that would make them terrorists.

    Their response should be to not make a sound as they are crammed and packed into their tiny refugee camp and die quietly.

    That way they would be peace-loving human beings.
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #31 - January 05, 2009, 08:43 PM
    Yes, the whole situation sucks. The jihad is a failure though and purely for practical reasons they need to adopt other tactics. Let's face it, we all know what is going to happen this year.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #32 - January 05, 2009, 09:01 PM
    The thing is that yes, it's fair enough for Palestinians to want somewhere to live and not like being chucked out of it. No argument there. Can't blame them for that at all. The fighting has nothing to do with this, though. The guys fighting on the Palestinian side aren't interested in a home for the Palestinian people. They're only interested in retaking al Aqsa and don't care how many Palestinians are killed in the process. They have become the modern Crusaders: they want Jerusalem in their power and will try to take it any way they can. It's a religious war that has nothing to do with homes for ordinary Palestinians.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #33 - January 05, 2009, 10:42 PM
    Quote from: Baal on January 05, 2009, 08:11 AM
    And also it does not bode well for the Palestinian to have voted for a genocidal party to begin with. Regardless of the frustration.

    Polarization is only natural for a people who's basic rights aren't being met. They want radical change. Fatah was inadequate, so they turn to Hamas. I'm not saying that's right but it's very understandable, even inevitable.

    Quote from: Zaephon on January 05, 2009, 06:22 PM
    Why do you think some ideological groups are so much obsessed about Israel's "crimes about humanity" while they are suspiciously silent about the oppression of women and minorities in the Islamic world, or in nationalist systems, or in communist regimes, or in... you get the idea. People who are touchy about their own crimes about humanity have the perfect scapegoat. Blaming the Zionist Entity is for free.

    I hate double standards. If one is against injustice, then it should be against all injustices and oppression, not just the ones committed against one's own. I know most Muslims are concerned with this conflict because the victims are Muslims. They wouldn't be so outspoken if it was happening to someone else. Zaephon, we know that and it's wrong but what are you seriously getting at?
    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #34 - January 06, 2009, 04:26 AM
    Quote from: Iggy on January 05, 2009, 10:42 PM
    Quote from: Baal on January 05, 2009, 08:11 AM
    And also it does not bode well for the Palestinian to have voted for a genocidal party to begin with. Regardless of the frustration.

    Polarization is only natural for a people who's basic rights aren't being met. They want radical change. Fatah was inadequate, so they turn to Hamas. I'm not saying that's right but it's very understandable, even inevitable.

    Sure, but who is doing the oppression and withholding basic human rights?

    The Palestinians who chose to integrate & share the land with the jews prior to the 70's have today 13 seats on the israeli parliament and would have had more today if it was not for the intifadahs.

    When the muslim palestinian got a 30% number advantage in the cities with the old Chrisitan churches, they wanted to build 100 Million dollars worth of mosques so large they would dwarf the ancient churches.

    Eventually the previous pope on his visit there, said that if the mosques are built, he will close the churches and the tourism income will go away for the city. The mosques eventually were not built, but goddamn, 100 Million dollars on Four mosques? why not build schools? houses? hospitals? wtf?

    And then the only hope given to the palestinians is that if they have a lot of kids, they will eventually win the population number game against israel. This is their hope. This is what they are being fed. A misery-inducing solution for the purpose of "winning every last inch of palestine back".

    Why should the Palestinians get every inch of palestine back? What kind of nonsense solution is this?

    So who is polarizing who? Let us just hope for the quickest and fastest demise of Hamas and all those who funded Hamas and prefered Hamas, over the more moderate palestinian organizations. The quicker Hamas goes away, the quicker we can get everyone back to the negotiation table.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #35 - January 06, 2009, 07:45 AM
    Quote from: Iggy on January 05, 2009, 10:42 PM
    I hate double standards. If one is against injustice, then it should be against all injustices and oppression, not just the ones committed against one's own


    Well said, Iggy  Afro

    Yes Muslims are very guilty of this - and so are the Israelis.

    I think we can agree that this is a pit-fall we must all avoid.
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #36 - January 06, 2009, 09:24 AM
    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Oh, so according to you, anything that is done without God is atheistic.


    Sure.  For the purpose of this discussion where you were arguing about how belief in God drives people to do bad things.  Behaviour undertaken in the context of a lack of belief in God is 'atheistic'.
    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Atheism is simply a lack of believe in a God.

    Yep.
    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot did not conduct their attrocites to spread atheism. Their goal was power and implementing their political ideologies.

    Why is that relevant?  'Spreading atheism' is not a principle of atheism either.  None of these goals are dependent on a belief in God and hence cannot be said to derive from belief in God.  In that sense they are 'atheistic'.
    Quote from: a.ghazali
    However Hitler accomplished his goals with the support of God and the church.

    Provide me with evidence that God supported Hitler.  Note that you will probably need to quote God to do that rather than Hitler.  Hitler's belief in God (if it existed) was entirely irrelevant to the pursuit of his goals.

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    The crusades were carried out by the onward marching Christian soldiers, the inquisitions were held to keep believers in check, the Islamic conquests were done in the name of God.

    None of which I have denied and none of which supports your contention that:

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    I think with God it can be and has been more justifiable.

    Quote
    I redefined atheism? Where?

    When you questioned whether the actions of communist regimes were atheistic.  As you have defined:
    'atheism is simply a lack of belief in God'.
    Hence actions undertaken in the context of a 'lack of belief in God' are atheistic.

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    There are principles to atheism 1) There is no God or supernatural being. 2) all humans are equal - there are no chosen or favoured peoples, 3) When you believe in things you don't understand then you suffer (courtesy Mr. Wonder)

    Oh dear.  You were doing well before with your definition.  Many atheists are at pains to deny that atheism means 1. although strong atheists would probably agree.  2. is not a principle of atheism at all.  A person could quite consistently have a lack of belief in God and still believe that they, or their race, were superiour (quite a few have).  3.  is also not a principle of atheism.  It is a completely disembodied claim that would need evidential support of its own.

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    I classified them as mad because they were power mad and willing to whatever to achieve their goals.

    Which is a redefinition of 'mad'.  They may have liked power perhaps in the way that you like other things.  There is nothing irrational about liking something.

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Sanctity of human life - what a joke.  Maybe when your god is burning the majority of mankind in hell fire for all eternity and you are up in heaven by his side, you can remind him about the sanctity of human life.

    Glad you think that it is funny too.  No doubt Stalin was laughing right along with you.
    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Also it's nice to know you know I'm a money grabbing capitalist. Maybe your God informed you of this.

    No, that was a guess because you didn't seem to be entirely enthused about the common ownership of the means of production.
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #37 - January 06, 2009, 09:45 AM
    Quote from: sparky on January 06, 2009, 09:24 AM
    Which is a redefinition of 'mad'.  They may have liked power perhaps in the way that you like other things.  There is nothing irrational about liking something.

    Actually there is. Emotions are not rational.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #38 - January 06, 2009, 01:15 PM
    Surgical Israeli air strikes hit a school... I mean Hamas Military Base and kill 3 refugees... I mean terrorists...

    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/world/story/59041.html

    But of course its all lies of the Kuffar... erm I mean... anti-Israel media.
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #39 - January 06, 2009, 01:52 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on January 06, 2009, 09:45 AM
    Emotions are not rational.


    But emotions aren't (inherently) irrational.
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #40 - January 06, 2009, 03:40 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 06, 2009, 09:24 AM
    None of these goals are dependent on a belief in God and hence cannot be said to derive from belief in God.  In that sense they are 'atheistic'.


    Sparky as usual we seem to be going off the plot.

    You cannot say that because something is done which is not derived from a belief in God then it is atheistic. Man can concoct anything. He can create his own ideologies. He can be carismatic enough to garner great support. He can spur people on to do his bidding. Whatever his actions are, you cannot pin them on atheism. They are his own concocted ideas.

    So Mao and Pol Pot did not believe in God. That does not mean their actions were atheistic. They prursued their communist ideology at whatever cost, not bringing into play atheism or humanism into it at all.

    Quote
    Hitler's belief in God (if it existed) was entirely irrelevant to the pursuit of his goals.


    Yes Hitler's belief in God did exist.

    "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."
    ( Adolf Hitler, from John Toland [Pulitzer Prize winner], Adolf Hitler, New York: Anchor Publishing, 1992, p. 507)


    "For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will."
    ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf)

    And God was extremely relevant to the pursuit of his goals:

    "My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And as a man I have the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did the civilization of the ancient world some two thousand years ago ? a civilization which was driven to its ruin through this same Jewish people. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited."
    ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Munich, April 12, 1922)

    "Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!"
    (Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf,


    "We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."
    ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered in Berlin, October 24, 1933. )

    "Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith."
    ( Adolf Hitler, in 26 April 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933. )

    "The union of the Evangelical Church in a single Church for the whole Reich, the Concordat with the Catholic Church, these are but milestones on the road which leads to the establishment of a useful relation and a useful co operation between the Reich and the two Confessions."
    ( Adolf Hitler, in his New Year Message, January 1, 1934. )

    "I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lords work."
    ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Reichstag, Berlin, 1936. )

    "The judgment whether a people is virtuous or not virtuous can hardly be passed by a human being. That should be left to God."
    ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Wilhelmshaven, April 1, 1939. )


    Sparky it can be easily proven that Hitler was a Christian and he carrried out his mission including the genocide of Jews in the name of God. He also received full support of the church who only recently apologised for their support of the Nazis.

    Maybe you should also know that the slogan on the Nazi German soldiers' belt read - "Gott Mit Uns" - "God With Us"
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #41 - January 06, 2009, 03:45 PM
    Quote
    Sparky it can be easily proven that Hitler was a Christian and he carrried out his mission including the genocide of Jews in the name of God. He also received full support of the church who only recently apologised for their support of the Nazis.


    NO serious historian would bother to even refute that hogwash.
    The exact opposite is true - the Church was next on the list of Hitler?s victims, thousands of priests and faithful suffered for their faith AND for helping Jews. Do learn a bit of history.

    read this about Hitler?s faith:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_beliefs

    Quote
    Adolf Hitler was brought up as a Roman Catholic. According to historian Bradley F. Smith, Hitler's father, though nominally a Catholic, was a freethinker,[3] while his mother was a practicing Catholic.[4] According to historian Michael Rissmann young Adolf was influenced in school by Pan-Germanism and began to reject the Church and Catholicism, receiving Confirmation only unwillingly. A boyhood friend reports that after Hitler had left home, he never attended Mass or received the Sacraments.[5] Georg Ritter von Sch?nerer's writings and the written legacy of his Pan-German Away from Rome! movement, which agitated against the Roman Catholic Church at the end of the 19th century, may have influenced the young Adolf Hitler

  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #42 - January 06, 2009, 04:14 PM
    Quote from: diotima on January 06, 2009, 03:45 PM
    NO serious historian would bother to even refute that hogwash.
    The exact opposite is true - the Church was next on the list of Hitler?s victims, thousands of priests and faithful suffered for their faith AND for helping Jews. Do learn a bit of history.

    read this about Hitler?s faith:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_beliefs

    Quote
    Adolf Hitler was brought up as a Roman Catholic. According to historian Bradley F. Smith, Hitler's father, though nominally a Catholic, was a freethinker,[3] while his mother was a practicing Catholic.[4] According to historian Michael Rissmann young Adolf was influenced in school by Pan-Germanism and began to reject the Church and Catholicism, receiving Confirmation only unwillingly. A boyhood friend reports that after Hitler had left home, he never attended Mass or received the Sacraments.[5] Georg Ritter von Sch?nerer's writings and the written legacy of his Pan-German Away from Rome! movement, which agitated against the Roman Catholic Church at the end of the 19th century, may have influenced the young Adolf Hitler



    Maybe instead of treating everything that your brainwahed mind cannot accept with contempt, you can actually present a proper counter argument.

    Show me where any of the quotes above are not true.
    Show me a quote from Hitler which shows he renounced religion
    Show me where he says his fighting  not not in the name of God.
    Show me that the German Nazi uniform did not say 'God Wit Us'
    Show me where the church did not apologise for their complicity in the genodice of the Jews
    Show me where Hitler did not insist on religious teachings in school
    Show where Cardinals and Bishops some even from Rome did not visit Hitler especially on ocasions such as his birthday

    Even your wiki link does not do that much to support your argument.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #43 - January 06, 2009, 04:20 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Sparky as usual we seem to be going off the plot.

    You cannot say that because something is done which is not derived from a belief in God then it is atheistic. Man can concoct anything. He can create his own ideologies. He can be carismatic enough to garner great support. He can spur people on to do his bidding. Whatever his actions are, you cannot pin them on atheism. They are his own concocted ideas.

    So Mao and Pol Pot did not believe in God. That does not mean their actions were atheistic. They prursued their communist ideology at whatever cost, not bringing into play atheism or humanism into it at all.

    I'm not 'pinning' anything on atheism.  I'm saying that as their actions did not require belief in God, they are atheistic.  This fits with the definition of atheism that you have already given.  Note that the initial question was about whether belief in God drove people to worse behaviour than they might achieve without belief in God.  Drop 'atheistic' if it troubles you.  'Without God' still holds.

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Sparky it can be easily proven that Hitler was a Christian and he carrried out his mission including the genocide of Jews in the name of God. He also received full support of the church who only recently apologised for their support of the Nazis.

    Have a look at wikipedia for a rather more balanced view.  It really isn't so easy to 'prove' that Hitler was a Christian.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_beliefs

    Seriously, AG, is this how you make your life decisions?  Gather all the one-sided material and say 'ha, it's obvious!'.

    Note how belief in God was not uniform among the Nazi leadership and that the goal of racial superiority could have been pursued with or without [reference to] God.  Note the selectivitiy evident even in what you have posted.  It wasn't his belief in God that drove his pursuit of racial superiority but his goal of racial superiority that he justified through belief in God.

    Not also how he didn't receive the 'full support' of the German churches and how many who didn't support him were persecuted.

    [] - Edit
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #44 - January 06, 2009, 04:23 PM
    Am not doing your homework, Ghazalil... that debate is so old, and so boring - all you say has been debunked time and time again... learn some real history.

    here?s a start
    on the Pacelli Pope:

    http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/22038?&eng=y

    and this about the "Black Legend" of the "Nazi Pope".
    http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/34104?&eng=y

    had you read the link I posted, you?d have seen plenty of anti-catholic and anti-christian remarks by Hitler.

    Also, do check out names like Fr. Maximilian Kolbe, Domprobst Bernhard Lichtenberg, the role of the later Pope John XXIII as cardinal in Turkey during the war in saving jews, the encyclica "Mit brennender Sorge", Bishop von Galen (the Bishop of M?nster), check out the Priests?Barrack in Dachau  and, and and...
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #45 - January 06, 2009, 04:35 PM
    Quote from: diotima on January 06, 2009, 04:23 PM
    Am not doing your homework, Ghazalil... that debate is so old, and so boring - all you say has been debunked time and time again... learn some real history.

    here?s a start
    on the Pacelli Pope:

    http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/22038?&eng=y

    and this about the "Black Legend" of the "Nazi Pope".
    http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/34104?&eng=y

    had you read the link I posted, you?d have seen plenty of anti-catholic and anti-christian remarks by Hitler.

    Also, do check out names like Fr. Maximilian Kolbe, Domprobst Bernhard Lichtenberg, the role of the later Pope John XXIII as cardinal in Turkey during the war in saving jews, the encyclica "Mit brennender Sorge" and, and and...


    Its not about doing my homework. I have done my work to prove my points Its about you proving there is any merit in your argument.

    I've showed you Hitler himself says he is a Christian and will always remain so. He says he is fighting for Jesus. He asks God to bless his battle. He says the Jews were vipers and adders and a poison to fight against.

    All you can say is 'according to historian X Hitlers father was nominal Christian' or ' According to historian Y young Adolf was influenced in school by Pan-Germanism and began to reject the Church and Catholicism'

    With absolutely no proof for any of these 'accordings' nor is any of it relevant to what Hitler actually said and did.

    Let's deal with the facts if you want to debate.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #46 - January 06, 2009, 04:36 PM
    You?re not worth the effort, Ghazali, since you don?t even bother to read the links I post properly. let alone follow up any of the clues I gave you. I presented plenty of facts, all of which you ignore.  Roll Eyes

    How about this quote, contained in the first link I gave you
    Quote
    We do not want any other god than Germany itself. It is essential to have fanatical faith and hope and love in and for Germany."


    or these:
    Quote
    Joseph Goebbels notes in a diary entry in 1939: "The F?hrer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay." Albert Speer reports a similar statement: ?You see, it?s been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn?t we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"[

  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #47 - January 06, 2009, 04:51 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on January 06, 2009, 04:35 PM
    Quote from: diotima on January 06, 2009, 04:23 PM
    Am not doing your homework, Ghazalil... that debate is so old, and so boring - all you say has been debunked time and time again... learn some real history.

    here?s a start
    on the Pacelli Pope:

    http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/22038?&eng=y

    and this about the "Black Legend" of the "Nazi Pope".
    http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/34104?&eng=y

    had you read the link I posted, you?d have seen plenty of anti-catholic and anti-christian remarks by Hitler.

    Also, do check out names like Fr. Maximilian Kolbe, Domprobst Bernhard Lichtenberg, the role of the later Pope John XXIII as cardinal in Turkey during the war in saving jews, the encyclica "Mit brennender Sorge" and, and and...


    Its not about doing my homework. I have done my work to prove my points Its about you proving there is any merit in your argument.

    I've showed you Hitler himself says he is a Christian and will always remain so. He says he is fighting for Jesus. He asks God to bless his battle. He says the Jews were vipers and adders and a poison to fight against.

    All you can say is 'according to historian X Hitlers father was nominal Christian' or ' According to historian Y young Adolf was influenced in school by Pan-Germanism and began to reject the Church and Catholicism'

    With absolutely no proof for any of these 'accordings' nor is any of it relevant to what Hitler actually said and did.

    Let's deal with the facts if you want to debate.

    Do you really think propogandistic quotes from a dictator like Hitler are somehow more reliable as to what he really believed?  You have to look at the whole picture.  He says 'I am still a Catholic' (to whom and in what context?) but he never goes to church, doesn't get married in a church and never takes the sacraments.  So how is it sensible to say that his Catholicism was a major influence in his life?
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #48 - January 06, 2009, 04:58 PM
    Quote
    Do you really think propogandistic quotes from a dictator like Hitler are somehow more reliable as to what he really believed?  You have to look at the whole picture.  He says 'I am still a Catholic' (to whom and in what context?) but he never goes to church, doesn't get married in a church and never takes the sacraments.  So how is it sensible to say that his Catholicism was a major influence in his life?


    It was obviously a major influence in the lives of a significant number of his supporters and/or potential supporters, otherwise he wouldn't have been pretending to Catholicism for propaganda purposes.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #49 - January 06, 2009, 05:03 PM
    Quote from: diotima on January 06, 2009, 04:36 PM
    You?re not worth the effort, Ghazali, since you don?t even bother to read the links I post properly. let alone follow up any of the clues I gave you. I presented plenty of facts, all of which you ignore.  Roll Eyes

    How about this quote, contained in the first link I gave you
    Quote
    We do not want any other god than Germany itself. It is essential to have fanatical faith and hope and love in and for Germany."



    Maybe if you read your own links you will see the fallacy of your argument.

    Early on, Hitler expressed his opinion about God and religion as follows, "We do not want any other god than Germany itself. It is essential to have fanatical faith and hope and love in and for Germany."

    However the very next paragraph goes on to say:

    In public statements, especially at the beginning of his rule, Hitler frequently spoke positively about the Christian heritage of German culture and his belief in the "Aryan" Christ. Joachim Fest wrote, "Hitler knew, through the constant invocation of the God the Lord (German: Herrgott) or of providence (German: Vorsehung), to make the impression of a godly way of thought."[9] He used his "ability to simulate, even to potentially critical Church leaders, an image of a leader keen to uphold and protect Christianity,"

    You can pick and choose quotes out of context but that's not going to convince anyone.

    Quote
    Joseph Goebbels notes in a diary entry in 1939: "The F?hrer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay." Albert Speer reports a similar statement: ?You see, it?s been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn?t we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"



    With regard to the above the same page you point to states the following:

    Hitler?s private statements about Christianity were largely negative. Hitler?s intimates, Goebbels, Speer, and Bormann report many such statements, although the historical validity of some remarks has been questioned, particularly the collection called Hitler's Table Talk. Although most historians consider it a useful source, some do not regard it as wholly reliable.

    Your points do not stack up against what Hitler actually said and did regarding his faith in God and in actions in God's name.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #50 - January 06, 2009, 05:10 PM
    It is YOU, ghazali, who is picking and chosing. OBVIOUSLY Hitler tries to "make a positive public impression" in a country, that regarded itself as "christian"... doesn?t mean a thing for his private beliefs.  Roll Eyes

    And none of the quotes I gave were from the "Table talks", whose complete accuracy is doubted by some (but confirmed by Speer, a direct witness to many of the talks).
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #51 - January 06, 2009, 05:19 PM
    Quote from: SnowFlake on January 06, 2009, 04:58 PM
    Quote
    Do you really think propogandistic quotes from a dictator like Hitler are somehow more reliable as to what he really believed?  You have to look at the whole picture.  He says 'I am still a Catholic' (to whom and in what context?) but he never goes to church, doesn't get married in a church and never takes the sacraments.  So how is it sensible to say that his Catholicism was a major influence in his life?


    It was obviously a major influence in the lives of a significant number of his supporters and/or potential supporters, otherwise he wouldn't have been pretending to Catholicism for propaganda purposes.

    Sure.
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #52 - January 06, 2009, 05:23 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali
    You can pick and choose quotes out of context but that's not going to convince anyone

    .

    And what do you think your initial list of quotes was?

    You were referred to wikipedia to get a rather more balanced view of the picture.
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #53 - January 06, 2009, 05:28 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 06, 2009, 04:51 PM
    but he never goes to church, doesn't get married in a church



    Hitler leaves a church.


    Hitler with Catholic Cardinal



    Hitler signing his autograph for a Christian fan


    Hitler in Church for Goring's wedding


    Hitler celebrating Christmas with his soldiers.


    A Nazi flag flies in front of the Cologne Cathedral, 1937


    Hitler Oath: I swear by God, this holy oath, to the F?hrer of the German Reich and people.


    Catholic Bishops giving the Nazi salute in honor of Hitler


    Priests giving the Hitler salute


    Mass meeting of the German Christian Movement 13 Nov.1933
    A radical wing of German Lutheranism and the main Protestant branch supporting Nazi ideology, the German Christian Movement reconciled Christian doctrine with German nationalism and antisemitism


    National Bishop Friedrich Coch giving a Hitler greeting in Dresden, 10 December 1933


    Gott Mit Uns (God With Us) Nazi Buckle

    Well they say a picture paints a thousand words. Hope these are clear enough to counter the apologetic nonsense coming from some quarters.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #54 - January 06, 2009, 05:30 PM
    Oh, gee... the leader of the country meeting church-dignitaries! Celebrating christmas (you HAVE to be a devout Christian, to do that, as everybody knows), even, gasp - attending somebody else?s WEDDING!... yawn.  Roll Eyes

    You really know not the least little bit about German history... or German culture... or - say - the role of the "German church" as opposed to the "confessing Church" in the Lutheran Church in Germany... DO some homework.

    Ah, well - you already found out (yeah, right!  Cheesy ) all you WANT to know. Good-bye, time-waster. thnkyu
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #55 - January 06, 2009, 06:52 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Quote from: sparky
    but he never goes to church, doesn't get married in a church


    Well they say a picture paints a thousand words. Hope these are clear enough to counter the apologetic nonsense coming from some quarters


    Actually, no they aren't.  I would expect someone for whom catholicism was important to have a practice of going to church regularly and to have undertaken their own marriage in the church.  None of your pictures establish that.

    Maybe you want to try a thousand words now...
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #56 - January 06, 2009, 08:09 PM
    The UN gave Israel the co-ordinates for the schools in Gaza as they are used to shelter civilians.

    Israel are now targeting these schools, knowing they are packed full of civilians seeking refuge with the UN run schools.

    30 die in the latest school:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7814054.stm

    The Israelis said two militants were in the vicinity of this school! (This may be one of them disguised at an injured child)

  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #57 - January 06, 2009, 08:15 PM
    Israeli spokeswoman on Channel 4 news right now:

    "Hamas fighters are carrying children in their arms to sheild themselves while shooting at us"

    Wow! Those evil sub-human scum!

    "We don't fire at civilians"

    I believe them!
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #58 - January 06, 2009, 08:21 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 06, 2009, 06:52 PM
    I would expect someone for whom catholicism was important to have a practice of going to church regularly and to have undertaken their own marriage in the church. 


    Hitler got married the day he took his life. It was just a formality. the war was over. Do you expect them to go and get some wedding planner to arrange an elaborate ceremony in a church?

    Quote
    None of your pictures establish that.


    See whatever you want to see from the pictures and note his words in speeches and his book Mein Kampf. They clearly support his link with the church and his religiousity.

    But rather you would like to take a questionable quote from Goring's diary. No one knows 1) if he was stating a fact or 2) if his diary was doctored.

    But his own book Mein Kampf in which he emphatically states he is a Christian and will fight the cause against the Jews and do battle for his Lord you push aside to remain comfy in you beliefs.

    If the church felt he was doing wrong why did they continue to not only support him but apparently rever him?

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #59 - January 06, 2009, 08:23 PM

    Quote
    If the church felt he was doing wrong why did they continue to not only support him but apparently rever him?


    Do keep on ignoring the links I posted, and the many, many clues I gave, proving how the Church actively fought him. It lets you go on living in la-la-land. Roll Eyes
    Time waster.
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