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 Topic: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?

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  • Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     OP - January 04, 2009, 09:12 PM

    Have you seen the slick Israeli Military footage of 'surgical' air strikes on "Hamas Terrorists"? This one was shown on the BBC (the footage is on the link).

    Turns out it was innocent people! What a surprise!

    I just watched another surgical strike on Channel 4 news - this time it was two children... erm... I mean "Hamas Terrorists" playing on a rooftop. Their parents had prevented them from playing outside and told them to play on the rooftop instead so they would be safe.

    No doubt our "Holy Defenders of Israel" (Zaephon, Ansari...) will tell us those evil parents are using their children as human shields. Damn those cunning "Hamas Terrorists" They really are sub-human monsters!

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7809371.stm

    Propaganda war: trusting what we see?

    Israel has tried to take the initiative in the propaganda war over Gaza but, in one important instance, its version has been seriously challenged.

    The incident raises the question of how to interpret video taken from the air.

    Israel released video of an air attack on 28 December, which appeared to show rockets being loaded onto a lorry. The truck and those close to it were then destroyed by a missile.

    This was clear evidence, the Israelis said, of how accurate their strikes were and how well justified. A special unit it has set up to coordinate its informational plan put the video onto YouTube as part of its effort to use modern means of communications to get Israel's case across.

    The YouTube video has a large caption on it saying "Grad missiles being loaded onto the Hamas vehicle." As of Saturday morning UK time, more than 260,000 people had watched it.

    Different version

    It turned out, however, that a 55-year-old Gaza resident named Ahmed Sanur, or Samur, claimed that the truck was his and that he and members of his family and his workers were moving oxygen cylinders from his workshop.

    This workshop had been damaged when a building next door was bombed by the Israelis and he was afraid of looters, he said.

    The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem put Mr Sanur's account on its website, together with a photograph of burned out oxygen cylinders.

    Mr Sanur said that eight people, one of them his son, had been killed. He subsequently told the Israeli newspaper Haaretz: "These were not Hamas, they were our children... They were not Grad missiles.".

    The Israeli response was that the "materiel" was being taken from a site that had stored weapons. The video remains on You Tube.

    But the incident shows how an apparently definitive piece of video can turn into something much more doubtful.

    It is reminiscent of an event in the Nato war against Serbia over Kosovo in 1999. In that case, a video taken from the air seemed to show a military convoy which was then attacked.

    On the ground however it was discovered that the "trucks" were in fact tractors towing cartloads of civilian refugees, many of whom were killed.

    Israel effort

    The Israeli propaganda effort is being directed to achieve two main aims.

    The first is to justify the air attacks. The second is to show that there is no humanitarian calamity in Gaza.

    Both these aims are intended to place Israel in a strong position internationally and to enable its diplomacy to act as an umbrella to fend off calls for a ceasefire while the military operation unfolds.

    Israel has pursued the first aim by being very active in getting its story across that Hamas is to blame. The sight of Hamas rockets streaking into Israel has been helpful in this respect.

    It has also allowed trucks in with food aid and has stressed that it will not let people starve, even if they go short.

    Israel appears to think its efforts are working.

    One of its spokespeople, who has regularly appeared on the international media, Major Avital Leibovich, said: "Quite a few outlets are very favourable to Israel."

    Ban on foreign media

    Israel has bolstered its approach by banning foreign correspondents from Gaza, despite a ruling from the Israeli Supreme Court.

    The Arab television news channel Al Jazeera is operating there and its reports have been graphic and have affected opinion across the Arab world. The BBC also has its local bureau hard at work.

    But the absence of reporters from major organisations has meant, for example, that Mr Samur's story has not been as widely told as it probably would have been, or his account subject to an on-the-spot examination.

    Meanwhile Israel has received good coverage of the threats and damage to its own towns and communities.

    Whether Israel retains any propaganda initiative is not all certain. Pictures of dead and wounded children have undermined its claim to pinpoint accuracy and the longer this goes on, the greater the potential for world public opinion to swing against it, with diplomatic pressure building for a cessation.

    Its presentational problems would be hugely increased if it engaged in a ground operation, which would bring with it more pictures of death and destruction.

    Update: several readers have e-mailed to ask whether I believe Hamas. One said I had "bought into" Hamas propaganda. Another that I should have dealt with Hamas' claims: "What's missing speaks volumes about your one-sidedness."

    I do not believe anyone's "propaganda." We seek to verify all claims, from whatever source. One of the main claims in Gaza at the moment is the serious situation for the population. Having reported from Gaza many times over the years, I know how crowded parts of it are and how dependent the people are on food aid from the UN. This means they have no other source of supply but equally, if the system is working, they should be getting enough to get by on. The problem is that foreign correspondents cannot get in to establish the exact situation for themselves.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7809371.stm
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #1 - January 04, 2009, 11:33 PM

    Hassan,

    Both sides use these tricks. 

    The real question is what is the final solution?

    Most people in Israel want a two state solution - what do Hamas want?
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #2 - January 04, 2009, 11:36 PM

    Hassan,

    Both sides use these tricks. 

    The real question is what is the final solution?

    Most people in Israel want a two state solution - what do Hamas want?

    Bad choice of words there.  grin12


    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #3 - January 04, 2009, 11:49 PM

    Yeah, shit did not think of it poor choice of words.

    Hassan,

    You have to register to view MEMRI's video clips now (it's free) but here's what the other side offers on the glories of martyrdom which appeared on Al-Aqsa (Hamas-run) TV yesterday. Transcript here:
    http://www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/1966.htm

    If one of our men dies, a thousand men will set out in his place. We, the women, will set out. We are the granddaughters of Yassin, Al-Bana, and Al-Qassam. We are all the daughters of Palestine, the daughters of steadfast Gaza. We will set out, booby-trapped. From every home, a bomb will set out, and it will explode among the sons of Zion. We are no less than Fatima Al-Najjar and Rim Al-Riyashi [two Palestinian women who blew themselves up among Israelis]. We will blow ourselves up among those traitors, those apes and pigs.

    This clip features a selection of clerics appearing on Egyptian TV from the last few days.  http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1965.htm
    The level of virulent anti-Semitism is....well,

    here's Sheik Amin Al-Ansari:
    http://www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/1965.htm

    It is told that the Israelites killed more than 70,000 prophets in a single day. It?s not the people they want to eradicate, but Revelation itself. They do not want there to be any revelation, purity, religion, or religious law. The secret behind the war between the Jews and non-Jews is that they want to have a monopoly on the spiritual and ideological leadership of the world, and eventually, the physical leadership. [...]

    By the ?Chosen People,? they mean that they are a people, and all those who are inferior to them are not peoples. In other words, they are human beings, and all others are not. They are people, and all others are not. They are human beings, selected by God to be the leaders of all beings. So what about the rest of mankind? They view them as pigs. That?s the truth. Pigs! So why do they look like human beings? So that they will be worthy of being servants of the Jews, who could ride on their backs and such their blood. That?s why when a Jew kills a Palestinian child, he considers him to be a little pig. What difference is there between the two?! On the contrary, he might show mercy for the pig, as an animal that should not be harmed. The Palestinian child is worth less to him than a pig.

  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #4 - January 04, 2009, 11:53 PM

    Hassan,

    Both sides use these tricks. 

    The real question is what is the final solution?

    Most people in Israel want a two state solution - what do Hamas want?


    I'm sure both sides do use these tricks. But, some people want us to think the Israelis are above all that.

    As for Hamas, they want the destruction of Israel. But perhaps they will eventually be pressured into accepting a two state solution.

    As for most Israelis - I doubt they want a two state solution but perhaps they will eventually be pressured into accepting one.
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #5 - January 05, 2009, 12:00 AM

    Quote from: Hassan
    No doubt our "Holy Defenders of Israel" (Zaephon, Ansari...) will tell us those evil parents are using their children as human shields.

    No strawman, please.  Roll Eyes

    I think BBC is hardly neutral in this affair, to begin with. I will take any report by the BBC about the Palestine-Israel struggle with a pinch of salt unless it is verified elsewhere.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #6 - January 05, 2009, 12:07 AM

    Hassan,

    Both sides use these tricks. 

    The real question is what is the final solution?

    Most people in Israel want a two state solution - what do Hamas want?


    I'm sure both sides do use these tricks. But, some people want us to think the Israelis are above all that.

    As for Hamas, they want the destruction of Israel. But perhaps they will eventually be pressured into accepting a two state solution.

    As for most Israelis - I doubt they want a two state solution but perhaps they will eventually be pressured into accepting one.



    Look at the way the Israelis have voted in the last few elections?  The right wing parties have been left pissing in the wind.  The one big chance  came when Gaza was given back.  Why did the rockets attacks not stop?
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #7 - January 05, 2009, 12:22 AM

    I think BBC is hardly neutral in this affair, to begin with. I will take any report by the BBC about the Palestine-Israel struggle with a pinch of salt unless it is verified elsewhere.


     Cheesy  You remind me of some of the Muslims on ummah.com who reject any news they don't like by saying:

    "We don't take the Kafir media's word for it."  Cheesy

    It's OK Zaephon, I know you wont believe anything that puts your beloved Israel in a bad light.
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #8 - January 05, 2009, 12:23 AM


    Look at the way the Israelis have voted in the last few elections?  The right wing parties have been left pissing in the wind.  The one big chance  came when Gaza was given back.  Why did the rockets attacks not stop?



    Indeed! Hamas are a bunch of lunatics - no doubt. That doesn't justify what Israel are doing though.
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #9 - January 05, 2009, 01:36 AM

    You remind me of some of the Muslims on ummah.com who reject any news they don't like by saying[/i]  Cheesy

    It's OK Zaephon, I know you wont believe anything that puts your beloved Israel in a bad light.

    Pfft, such a predictable comment. You remind me some Muslims who believe they are surrounded by evil tempters who want to destroy their little spheres of safe, conformist thinking. You are very happy with your little strawman I see, why dispel your dream? It's okay for the BBC to have its bias --as a matter of fact, all media channels are biased to some degree. That's why some newspapers are called "centrist" while others are called "left-centre" to begin with.

    But I've been watching BBC for no short period of time and it's blatantly anti-Israel, much in the way an Israeli newspaper would be, naturally, pro-Israel. This is their quasi-oficial policy, and this is why I would not trust BBC alone in any matter related to the Israeli-Palestinian issue, unless there are other channels reporting the same news with conclusive evidence. And yes, I try to read all kinds of newspapers.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #10 - January 05, 2009, 03:11 AM


    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #11 - January 05, 2009, 03:51 AM

    What are you talking about Hassan. We the Arabs won, We goddamn won this. We eradicated the jews from all of Arabia. Done. Over with. We really went down and cleaned the house on this one. 57 Muslim country with 26 Arab country, Arab country after country, we used every strategem available to us to scare and get rid of the jews from our countries. Confiscated, land, property, outright murder and genocide. We won. Such a wonderful victory too Hassan, because not just we were able to pull it off. But we pulled it off and did not have anyone condemning us and blaming us, except few voices of people who are too aware of our recent history. And our best weapon, was the silence of our populations. None of them were indignant or upset enough to raise a stink about it as we went on in one country after country, street after street, business after business. But we still want more. Palestine, this is just a little strip of land, 500Km by 75Km, that inshallah we will get to it once the right time comes.

    In 1979, when the Egyptians were holding talks with israel, Yasser was invited to talk with israel. There was 5 flags, the UN in the middle, on the right there was the American and Israeli, on the left the Egyptian and the Palestinian. All Yasser had to do was show his face. Show his face and shake three hands, then perhaps pretend he had a stomach ache, and leave and go home. He would have established himself as a recognized country.

    What did Yasser "the douche" Arafat do? he did not show up.

    Few years later, when he was invited to goto camp david a second time, his flag was not up. When he showed up, the flag was ripped from his jacket, his gun was taken away from him. And he was allowed to attend the meeting just like a citizen with a grievance, not like a nation.

    Now you ask why did Yasser refuse to show up in 1979? Because he believed then, like Hamas believes now that, they want all of israel. Every single inch. This is what the palestinian media had been singing. The arab media had been singing, This is what the Hamas constitution had repeated. They want every last inch. That is the hope that the Palestinian & Arab & Islamic (Hamas) leadership were passing on to their kids, that they will give them every last inch of israel or nothing else.

    What will happen Hassan if the Palestinians are given every last inch of israel? The same palestinian government now which refuses to even talk about a Two-state solution. What happened to the jews in the rest of the muslim world Hassan? What is going to happen to the jews in Israel Hassan? Do you agree or do you not agree that this is a fight to the death to the jews of israel?


    Thank you and Just in case we need to put things in perspective:


    Here is an interactive map, zoom out and try to find israel:



    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #12 - January 05, 2009, 04:07 AM

    Quote from: Hassan
    Indeed! Hamas are a bunch of lunatics - no doubt. That doesn't justify what Israel are doing though.

    It is the official policy of Hamas to wipe out Israel from the map, which is an euphemism for the genocide of an entire nation. And that's not just hot air or empty rhetoric on their behalf, they are doing everything in their power to achieve their goal. Due to a lack of resources, however, they cannot accomplish their genocidal aims.

    How do you expect Israel to deal with a terrorist club whose explicitly stated goal is the eradication of every single Jewish person in the Middle East? Committing mass suicide, burying their hands in hot desert sand, or showering Hamas with roses and amaranths?

    @Iggy

    Have you ever heard about the Jews expelled from Arab lands?

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #13 - January 05, 2009, 06:38 AM

    @Iggy

    Have you ever heard about the Jews expelled from Arab lands?


    I have. For a people to be forced out of their homes? It's beyond terrible. Racism is wrong. Discrimination is wrong. Anti-semitism is wrong. What happened to the Jews during the holocaust is unmentionable.

    Does that make it okay for Israel to treat Palestinians as second class citizens?(Curfew hours, ID cards, searches, hours at checkpoints just to get to work or the hospital.) Does that make the home demolitions alright?

    Yes, Jews have been mistreated throughout their whole history but does that make what they're doing to the Palestinians less wrong? Does the fact that Jews were expelled from Arab countries justify what they're doing? In fact, with all that history of oppression...

    Before you talk about self defense and Hamas...Why do think Hamas won the election in 2006? I'm willing to bet it has more to do with the Palestinians' frustrations and dissatisfactions with their living conditions than it does with anti-semitism. Like Chris Hedges said, "Israel is foolishly breeding the next generation of Islamic militants in Gaza".

    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #14 - January 05, 2009, 08:11 AM

    Before you talk about self defense and Hamas...Why do think Hamas won the election in 2006?

    The Democracy Card:

    Hamas was on its way to a minor election victory, after using foreign saudi money funneled through the Egyptian Islamic Brotherhood(EIB). (and you should read the big 'thank you' to the EIB in the Hamas constitution).  But unlike other Democratic nations where some party wins some elections and loses the next. Hamas, while the count was still going on, went into the Fatah buildings and threw the Fatah members from the top of buildings and shot some in the knees with the purpose of crippling them.

    And also it does not bode well for the Palestinian to have voted for a genocidal party to begin with. Regardless of the frustration.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #15 - January 05, 2009, 08:13 AM

    I have. For a people to be forced out of their homes? It's beyond terrible. Racism is wrong. Discrimination is wrong. Anti-semitism is wrong. What happened to the Jews during the holocaust is unmentionable.

    I do not believe Zaephon was referring to the European holocaust. The European holocaust is not very relevant to this conversation anyways.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #16 - January 05, 2009, 08:24 AM

    Pfft... I've been watching BBC for no short period of time and it's blatantly anti-Israel


    You are so right, Zaephon! Israel would NEVER lie to us OR use propaganda. You carry on playing with your self in the knowledge that it's just those bastards at the BBC again spreading more lies about those poor Israelis.

    The children getting killed are all the fault of Hamas! (Or maybe the women and children killed is a BBC lie too?)
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #17 - January 05, 2009, 12:49 PM

    Quote
    It turned out, however, that a 55-year-old Gaza resident named Ahmed Sanur, or Samur, claimed that the truck was his and that he and members of his family and his workers were moving oxygen cylinders from his workshop.


    Sorry but anyone who loads up the back of their lorry with anything that remotely looks like a rocket while F-16s are flying overhead is asking for trouble.


    When it come to propaganda on both sides I normally apply the Chinese adage

    'Believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see'
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #18 - January 05, 2009, 01:29 PM

    This escalation of fighting is so depressing. Innocent children being killed regardless of whose fault.

    It just makes me realise atheism and humanism is a path that would effectively do away with such unnecessary killing.

    Basically it's just religion that is divding these 2 groups. A few years ago I'd be protesting against Israel's tactics and hoping for their defeat and Palestine's victory, though I'm not in anyway connected with that region. But today I just want to see no suffering of humans, regardless.

    Belief is God drives man to unthinkable crimes. The land that once belonged to the Ummah must be recaptured. That is what I use to believe.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #19 - January 05, 2009, 02:07 PM

    This escalation of fighting is so depressing. Innocent children being killed regardless of whose fault.

    It just makes me realise atheism and humanism is a path that would effectively do away with such unnecessary killing.

    Basically it's just religion that is divding these 2 groups. A few years ago I'd be protesting against Israel's tactics and hoping for their defeat and Palestine's victory, though I'm not in anyway connected with that region. But today I just want to see no suffering of humans, regardless.

    Belief is God drives man to unthinkable crimes. The land that once belonged to the Ummah must be recaptured. That is what I use to believe.


    Man has managed unthinkable crimes with or without God.
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #20 - January 05, 2009, 02:16 PM

    Man has managed unthinkable crimes with or without God.


    I think with God it can be and has been more justifiable.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #21 - January 05, 2009, 02:19 PM

    Man has managed unthinkable crimes with or without God.


    I think with God it can be and has been more justifiable.


    but FOR God, it has been totally inexcusable. The proletariat doesn?t mind. cool2
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #22 - January 05, 2009, 02:32 PM

    Man has managed unthinkable crimes with or without God.


    I think with God it can be and has been more justifiable.

    Then I think you are naive.  The man who kills for God is little different than the one who kills because he thinks he is God.  Some of the worst crimes have been atheistic attempts to create heaven on earth.
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #23 - January 05, 2009, 02:35 PM

    Some of the worst crimes have been atheistic attempts to create heaven on earth.


    For example?

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #24 - January 05, 2009, 02:42 PM

    Some of the worst crimes have been atheistic attempts to create heaven on earth.


    For example?

    - Maoist China
    - Stalinist Russia/Soviet Union
    - communist Cambodia ("killing fields")... need any more?
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #25 - January 05, 2009, 02:47 PM

    Basically it's just religion that is divding these 2 groups. A few years ago I'd be protesting against Israel's tactics and hoping for their defeat and Palestine's victory, though I'm not in anyway connected with that region. But today I just want to see no suffering of humans, regardless.


    Land, material and political interests, justice?

    Quote
    It just makes me realise atheism and humanism is a path that would effectively do away with such unnecessary killing.


    It'll be a good starting point, though.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #26 - January 05, 2009, 02:54 PM

    Some of the worst crimes have been atheistic attempts to create heaven on earth.


    For example?

    - Maoist China
    - Stalinist Russia/Soviet Union
    - communist Cambodia ("killing fields")... need any more?


    Since when are those Atheistic? What principles of Atheism were used in rousing the masses to war and pillaging.

    A few power hungry mad men does not equate to 'atheistic attempts to create heaven on earth'

    Its a bit of an oxy-moron to state and atheist wants to create heaven anyway.

    Anyway to clarify, Stalin trained in a seminary to be a priest. He knew very well the ideology which guided Russia for over a thousand years. Russia was previously ruled by the czars who were supposedly God's representatve on earth.

    Peoples subjected to such ideology could easily be swayed to direct their reverence to some other individual and be manipulated as easily as religion manipulates them.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #27 - January 05, 2009, 05:19 PM

    Some of the worst crimes have been atheistic attempts to create heaven on earth.


    For example?

    - Maoist China
    - Stalinist Russia/Soviet Union
    - communist Cambodia ("killing fields")... need any more?


    Since when are those Atheistic? What principles of Atheism were used in rousing the masses to war and pillaging.

    A few power hungry mad men does not equate to 'atheistic attempts to create heaven on earth'

    Its a bit of an oxy-moron to state and atheist wants to create heaven anyway.

    Anyway to clarify, Stalin trained in a seminary to be a priest. He knew very well the ideology which guided Russia for over a thousand years. Russia was previously ruled by the czars who were supposedly God's representatve on earth.

    Peoples subjected to such ideology could easily be swayed to direct their reverence to some other individual and be manipulated as easily as religion manipulates them.

    The point is that they were accomplished 'without God' - hence 'atheistic'.  Don't complain about oxymorons and then redefine 'atheist' in the same breath.  There are no 'principles of atheism' - hence it's a big camp.

    And they weren't mad.  They had quite a rational plan to help the poor and oppressed.  It's just that they weren't swayed by such supernatural nonsense as 'the sanctity of human life'.  They had a goal, which many supported, and pursued it.  Just because you don't agree with their goal (money-grabbing capitalist that you are) doesn't make them mad.

  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #28 - January 05, 2009, 06:22 PM

    Quote from: Hassan
    that it's just those bastards at the BBC again spreading more lies about those poor Israelis.

    Another strawman, I see. You must have a closet full of them. This is what I've posted, maybe you should try to read and understand what other people think before making your comments:

    Quote from: Zaephon
    But I've been watching BBC for no short period of time and it's blatantly anti-Israel, much in the way an Israeli newspaper would be, naturally, pro-Israel.

    I never wrote that Israelis are not using propaganda --they are trying to thrive in an hostile atmosphere, and the prejudices of many different ideological groups are working against them. That doesn't mean BBC isn't producing its own brand of propaganda against Israel, though. If I heard suspiciously anti-Palestinian news on a right-wing Israeli newspaper I wouldn't buy that, either.

    Quote from: Iggy
    I have. For a people to be forced out of their homes? It's beyond terrible. Racism is wrong. Discrimination is wrong. Anti-semitism is wrong.

    And yet there was very little support for Jews kicked out from Arab lands. There was very little support for Jews who died during the birth of Israel. There was no international furor, no displays of solidarity.

    Quote from: Iggy
    Yes, Jews have been mistreated throughout their whole history but does that make what they're doing to the Palestinians less wrong? In fact, with all that history of oppression...

    That's a stereotypical argument. You would expect Jews to adhere to superhuman standards of morality? Think twice... if nobody helps you when you are oppressed --as in the case of Mizrahim, for example-- and if everybody considers you a criminal for opening up your own living space, albeit forcefully, you learn to distrust others. If we can blame Jews or Israel collectively, then why not blame the Arab world? Will they ever pay reparations to, or open living space for, Mizrahi Jews? Did anybody offer reparations for what happened to Mizrahim? Would they, even if Israel did not exist? You know, half of Israel's Jewish population are Mizrahim immigrants and their descendants.

    Why do you think some ideological groups are so much obsessed about Israel's "crimes about humanity" while they are suspiciously silent about the oppression of women and minorities in the Islamic world, or in nationalist systems, or in communist regimes, or in... you get the idea. People who are touchy about their own crimes about humanity have the perfect scapegoat. Blaming the Zionist Entity is for free.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
     Reply #29 - January 05, 2009, 07:55 PM

    The point is that they were accomplished 'without God' - hence 'atheistic'. 


    Oh, so according to you, anything that is done without God is atheistic.

    Atheism is simply a lack of believe in a God.

    Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot did not conduct their attrocites to spread atheism. Their goal was power and implementing their political ideologies.

    However Hitler accomplished his goals with the support of God and the church. The crusades were carried out by the onward marching Christian soldiers, the inquisitions were held to keep believers in check, the Islamic conquests were done in the name of God.

    Quote
    Don't complain about oxymorons and then redefine 'atheist' in the same breath.  There are no 'principles of atheism' - hence it's a big camp.


    I redefined atheism? Where?

    There are principles to atheism 1) There is no God or supernatural being. 2) all humans are equal - there are no chosen or favoured peoples, 3) When you believe in things you don't understand then you suffer (courtesy Mr. Wonder)

    Quote
    And they weren't mad.  They had quite a rational plan to help the poor and oppressed.  It's just that they weren't swayed by such supernatural nonsense as 'the sanctity of human life'.  They had a goal, which many supported, and pursued it.  Just because you don't agree with their goal (money-grabbing capitalist that you are) doesn't make them mad.


    I classified them as mad because they were power mad and willing to whatever to achieve their goals.

    Sanctity of human life - what a joke.  Maybe when your god is burning the majority of mankind in hell fire for all eternity and you are up in heaven by his side, you can remind him about the sanctity of human life.

    Also it's nice to know you know I'm a money grabbing capitalist. Maybe your God informed you of this.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
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