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 Topic: Islam has made me an atheist

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  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #30 - January 08, 2009, 08:14 PM

    let your conscience be your guide. The implication, at least from that article, was that a functioning conscience is God given, and if we were to live in a culture void of scriptoral guidance then our conscience is what we should fall back on


    I wonder what a society void of scriptural guidance would be like, Speaklow? If man could fully apply his mind and conscience without any reference to ancient stories of angry, jealous and vengeful gods? I suspect that at the very least we couldn't be worse off.


    I'm a Star Trek fan so I wouldn't mind if it was something along the lines of 'Next Generation.'

    I was born too early. Bring on re-incarnation... but not just yet.


    I'm a Star Trek fan too, but for me it was the original, Captain Kirk episodes - I loved his little speeches lol


    Actually Voyager was my favourite since there was an underlying theme of returning home during their encounters with aliens.

    Deep Space Nine was the worst for me. I mean what's the point of calling it Star Trek if there's no trekking involved and you're stationary. It was just a bit of a soap  opera. Shame.

  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #31 - January 08, 2009, 08:28 PM

    Anyway the very last sentence of that excerpt says let your conscience be your guide. The implication, at least from that article, was that a functioning conscience is God given, and if we were to live in a culture void of scriptoral guidance then our conscience is what we should fall back on.


    Actually Muhammad/Allah says that there may be things you dislike that is good for you and things you like that is not good.

    What you like is what your conscience tells you is good for you and others. However your conscience might not always be right according to the prophet.

    I think he said this when men were not too keen to go out and fight.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #32 - January 08, 2009, 08:29 PM

    I'm a Star Trek fan too, but for me it was the original, Captain Kirk episodes - I loved his little speeches lol


    Yes William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy made the best space team.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #33 - January 09, 2009, 03:47 AM

    You have 4 general options in life-

    1- Belief in God/religion
    2- Nihilism
    3- Enjoy life
    4- Commit suicide

    As an atheist if you want to enjoy life then morality is a convenience. It is something that evolved with us and helps maintain a stable society. However even if you don't like morality the law will still be there.

    Your other option is to spend your life moping that it has no meaning. Why it even needs some ultimate meaning is beyond me. Personally I find God's existence makes life far more worthless.

    There are people who want to enjoy life and I don't see why they cannot create their own meaning or why that has any less validity than some God.


    Actually, belief in God and nihilism aren't really choices, they're conclusions. You cannot choose to believe if you cannot, you cannot choose not too if you do. Roll Eyes

    Morality is built in people, it is also not a choice. We know something is wrong when we see it, it starts when we're young, we don't need someone to tell us that getting less cookies and juice is unjust, we know it is, and we learn to empathize with others...

    The options you have in life:

    Be happy,
    don't be happy

    And even those are not always able to be decided upon, but you can try.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #34 - January 09, 2009, 06:26 AM

    If morality came from the Christian Bible we would be stoning people regularly and all the Christians I know would be living perfectly immoral lives because they haven't given all of their possessions to the poor and killed those who work on the sabbath.

    Taking your moral guidance from the Bible or the Koran is the perfect way to create misery.

    Unless you pick and choose wisely that is! But if you pick and choose from scripture you are just like atheists. You use your own moral compass.

    No one gets their morality from scripture apart from the most immoral nutters in our society.

    nuf said
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #35 - January 09, 2009, 08:34 AM

    Our dear sparky keeps repeating the argument from objective ethics by divine revelation like a mantra. Will he ever realize that his ethics are based on subjective perception like anybody else's ethics are? I don't think so Cheesy. Oh, I forgot he has "evidence" for what he believes to be true. Of course, Muslims don't have "evidence" to think their book is the absolute criterion for morality.way to resolve conflicts and seek justice.

    Personally, I don't think anybody can prove their morality. You can only list the reasons and the basis for your ethics, but ideas of morality are not provable themselves. Morality ultimately rests on the principles and rules a person has been taught or which are innate in almost all people (maybe similar to 1+1=2). It also depends on the social intelligence of a person, because some acts don't have immediate consequences. Nobody needs to prove that harming others is immoral. Though, when somebody beats you up, you naturally want to seek revenge. Instead of acting vigilante, most people would act upon the civil, social rule to call the police and have the felon arrested. Intelligent enough ppl know that this a good

    Sounds like you agree.  Nihilism is true.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #36 - January 09, 2009, 08:41 AM

    Sparky, I still don't understand how a Christian makes a moral judgement about something.

    I know you refused to answer my question about homosexuality last time - I really don't know why, because that is a very real issue where I find myself having to make a judgement about a moral issue.

    Is it right or wrong?

    When I was a Muslim I would have said it was wrong - and I would have taken the Qur'an and Hadith as my guide.

    Now I don't say it is wrong and I simply use my conscience/best judgement to come to that decision.

    What I want to know is your answer - as a Christian - to the question of whether homosexuality is right or wrong?

    And how do you know that?

    Actually I did give you a reason.  That was that in my experience, discussions of homosexuality are almost always thread-killers.  Pick another one and I'm happy to talk about it.

    And I don't believe that conscience really is your guide.  We always look to our reason to validate our consciences.  Therefore the reasons, if they can be found, matter.  If there is no evidence for the truth of any particular moral principle, then there can be no reasons.  It was clear discussing sex outside of marriage with Berbs, for example, that her conscience gave her a problem with it but she could find to reasons to substantiate it.  As a result, she did not trust her conscience as a guide to this issue believing that it was influenced from her time as a muslim.  I think we would all see our consciences in much the same way.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #37 - January 09, 2009, 08:49 AM

    Quote from: Iris
    That may be so. Maybe we cant answer the questions to your satisfaction. But what is your answer Sparky? Where do you derive your ethics from? A divine source? Thats a staggeringly huge claim and the trouble is that you just cant prove it.


    Hi Iris,

    I don't think you can even answer the questions to your own satisfaction.  That's why they are consistently avoided - just like the writer of this article.

    Whether I can or cannot prove what I believe is irrelevant to the problems you face in this regard.

    Quote from: Iris
    I dont follow - so a bunch of people claim to have seen a miraculous event i.e. the resurrection of Jesus. First of all, just because several people claim to have seen it and documented it and you can trace the history of said documents and know that they havent been falsified somewhere in the intervening millenia, does that make the claim itself true?


    I didn't say that it did.  I said that the claims of Christianity are different to those of Islam and therefore the reasons for rejecting Islam cannot immediately be extended to rejecting Christianity - at least in the way the author of this article claims that they led him.

    Quote from: Iris
    Surely if the claim itself is irrational , it doesnt matter how meticulous the scholarship is?
    And the conclusions drawn from the claim are even more irrational - the person who rose up from the dead was actually a superintelligent all-powerful superbeing who created the universe and yet had to come down to earth in the form of his own son (a human being) in order to kill himself in a horribly cruel way so that he could then forgive us for our sins?  Huh?   How on earth did anyone reach that conclusion?

    How do you know the claim is irrational?

    Quote from: Iris
    And why base your moral code upon an event that a few people claim to have seen 2000 years ago? Maybe social evolution, common sense, compassion, empathy, the golden rule, etc are all imperfect explanations and our ethical systems are deeply flawed, but even so - they have to be better than THAT!

    On what grounds?  They are exactly parallel - even in your book.  According to you none of are grounded in evidence.  That doesn't make one 'better' than the other - it makes them all the same.

    This is the irony of the atheistic position.  If it is true, then there is just as much reason for adopting Islamic morality than there is for any other.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #38 - January 09, 2009, 08:53 AM

    Quote from: speaklow
    I don't know why Sparky cannot accept that and feels that we are all empty vessels until we are filled with guidance from the religious books.

    Perhaps he can explain that point to me because it is something I have never have accepted.

    I'm not with you on this one Sparky.

    I didn't say that the conscience was nothing.  I just said that we always seek to validate it by reason - we seek to 'explain' it.  Therefore the reasons that a particular action are either right or wrong remain important to us.  The person who says that 'my conscience is my guide' is denying this, and I, frankly, don't believe them.

    At no point did I say we were 'empty vessels'.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #39 - January 09, 2009, 08:54 AM

    let your conscience be your guide. The implication, at least from that article, was that a functioning conscience is God given, and if we were to live in a culture void of scriptoral guidance then our conscience is what we should fall back on


    I wonder what a society void of scriptural guidance would be like, Speaklow? If man could fully apply his mind and conscience without any reference to ancient stories of angry, jealous and vengeful gods? I suspect that at the very least we couldn't be worse off.

    Didn't communist countries have lots of years without reference to these ancient stories?  Do you think they came out better off?
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #40 - January 09, 2009, 08:56 AM

    If morality came from the Christian Bible we would be stoning people regularly and all the Christians I know would be living perfectly immoral lives because they haven't given all of their possessions to the poor and killed those who work on the sabbath.

    Taking your moral guidance from the Bible or the Koran is the perfect way to create misery.

    Unless you pick and choose wisely that is! But if you pick and choose from scripture you are just like atheists. You use your own moral compass.

    No one gets their morality from scripture apart from the most immoral nutters in our society.

    nuf said

    Load of rubbish.  There is a difference between biblical morality and the commands given to the israelites to run their society - much like there is a difference between morality and the laws we live under today.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #41 - January 09, 2009, 09:01 AM

    If morality came from the Christian Bible we would be stoning people regularly and all the Christians I know would be living perfectly immoral lives because they haven't given all of their possessions to the poor and killed those who work on the sabbath.

    Taking your moral guidance from the Bible or the Koran is the perfect way to create misery.

    Unless you pick and choose wisely that is! But if you pick and choose from scripture you are just like atheists. You use your own moral compass.

    No one gets their morality from scripture apart from the most immoral nutters in our society.

    nuf said

    Load of rubbish.  There is a difference between biblical morality and the commands given to the israelites to run their society - much like there is a difference between morality and the laws we live under today.


    That's only cuz Xtians abrogated most of it and picked what they liked from it, namely 'the ten commandments' and 'the golden rule' (and Jews just chose to ignore the unpleasant bits, or say they couldn't be applied today without a temple, Sanhedrin, or such; or reinterpret them). Am I missing anything? Please explain if I am sparky.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #42 - January 09, 2009, 10:58 AM

    If morality came from the Christian Bible we would be stoning people regularly and all the Christians I know would be living perfectly immoral lives because they haven't given all of their possessions to the poor and killed those who work on the sabbath.

    Taking your moral guidance from the Bible or the Koran is the perfect way to create misery.

    Unless you pick and choose wisely that is! But if you pick and choose from scripture you are just like atheists. You use your own moral compass.

    No one gets their morality from scripture apart from the most immoral nutters in our society.

    nuf said

    Load of rubbish.  There is a difference between biblical morality and the commands given to the israelites to run their society - much like there is a difference between morality and the laws we live under today.


    That's only cuz Xtians abrogated most of it and picked what they liked from it, namely 'the ten commandments' and 'the golden rule' (and Jews just chose to ignore the unpleasant bits, or say they couldn't be applied today without a temple, Sanhedrin, or such; or reinterpret them). Am I missing anything? Please explain if I am sparky.

    Missing something?  Like my whole argument?  The difference between morality and societal law is nothing to do with 'abrogation'.  Of course, if you think these are one and the same thing, I can understand how you might be confused.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #43 - January 09, 2009, 01:38 PM

    Sparky, I still don't understand how a Christian makes a moral judgement about something.

    I know you refused to answer my question about homosexuality last time - I really don't know why, because that is a very real issue where I find myself having to make a judgement about a moral issue.

    Is it right or wrong?

    When I was a Muslim I would have said it was wrong - and I would have taken the Qur'an and Hadith as my guide.

    Now I don't say it is wrong and I simply use my conscience/best judgement to come to that decision.

    What I want to know is your answer - as a Christian - to the question of whether homosexuality is right or wrong?

    And how do you know that?

    Actually I did give you a reason.  That was that in my experience, discussions of homosexuality are almost always thread-killers.  Pick another one and I'm happy to talk about it.


    I find your excuse of "Homosexuality" being a thread killer very weak to say the least.

    I also find very strange that you refuse to tell me whether homosexuality is right or wrong and how you know on a discussion about how we know what is right and wrong and how we arrive at it.

    If you refuse to answer, then that's fine. But it reflects badly on you and your arguments if you cannot even answer a straight question.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #44 - January 09, 2009, 02:28 PM

    Sparky, I still don't understand how a Christian makes a moral judgement about something.

    I know you refused to answer my question about homosexuality last time - I really don't know why, because that is a very real issue where I find myself having to make a judgement about a moral issue.

    Is it right or wrong?

    When I was a Muslim I would have said it was wrong - and I would have taken the Qur'an and Hadith as my guide.

    Now I don't say it is wrong and I simply use my conscience/best judgement to come to that decision.

    What I want to know is your answer - as a Christian - to the question of whether homosexuality is right or wrong?

    And how do you know that?

    Actually I did give you a reason.  That was that in my experience, discussions of homosexuality are almost always thread-killers.  Pick another one and I'm happy to talk about it.


    I find your excuse of "Homosexuality" being a thread killer very weak to say the least.

    I also find very strange that you refuse to tell me whether homosexuality is right or wrong and how you know on a discussion about how we know what is right and wrong and how we arrive at it.

    If you refuse to answer, then that's fine. But it reflects badly on you and your arguments if you cannot even answer a straight question.

    I not terribly concerned if you think my excuses weak or not or your opinion on how it reflects on me.  There are plenty of other issues I am more than happy to discuss.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #45 - January 09, 2009, 04:54 PM

    If you are worried about killing the thread Sparky, then you could always open another one. 

    Are you worried that your answer will prove that your own version of morality is flawed, as it produces answers that are wrong and unacceptable?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #46 - January 09, 2009, 05:24 PM

    If you are worried about killing the thread Sparky, then you could always open another one. 

    Are you worried that your answer will prove that your own version of morality is flawed, as it produces answers that are wrong and unacceptable?

    No it's that discussions inevitably descend into meaningless insults and accusations.  A new thread wouldn't help that.

    Are there really no other moral issues to discuss?
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #47 - January 09, 2009, 05:35 PM

    The reason I left Islam, is for the same reason, I would not accept Christianity.  I was unable to answer certain questions, like this one, to my satisfaction.  Sounds like it may be time for you too, Sparky.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #48 - January 09, 2009, 06:46 PM

    The reason I left Islam, is for the same reason, I would not accept Christianity.  I was unable to answer certain questions, like this one, to my satisfaction.  Sounds like it may be time for you too, Sparky.

    If your conclusion is that I can't answer the question then that just shows an inablity to read.  If that's how you make decisions, I wouldn't particularly trust their soundness.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #49 - January 09, 2009, 06:58 PM

    I am sure you can answer the question, but in your heart of hearts do you really believe the answer is a correct one? 

    If you do, then you should not be ashamed to share your thoughts here (or on another thread - or can I suspect that it was a red herring?).

    If you dont, then you should think again about the basis of your morality (which is what we did)


    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #50 - January 09, 2009, 07:16 PM

    I am sure you can answer the question, but in your heart of hearts do you really believe the answer is a correct one? 

    If you do, then you should not be ashamed to share your thoughts here (or on another thread - or can I suspect that it was a red herring?).

    If you dont, then you should think again about the basis of your morality (which is what we did)

    Yes, I do think it is the correct one in my 'heart of hearts' and I am in no way 'ashamed' to share it.  However, prior experience has shown that, on this issue, people generally seem to be incapable of rational discussion.  Moreover, discussing it actually adds nothing to anything I or anyone else has claimed regarding morality.  So there is really no point.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #51 - January 09, 2009, 10:05 PM

    It is wholly unfair for you to generalise, and assume that members on this forum are incapable of rational discussion.  I wonder why you would be part of such a forum.  In any case, you & I know you can chose who you wish to play ball with.  Are you sure you are not just avoiding the question, as I am genuinely interested to hear you answer?

    As well as Hassan, I also feel it is not just relevent to the question of morality, but a brilliant example of where your argument and belief system will begin to fall apart.

    Rather than accept your belief system has a huge gaping hole in it, you chose to run away with the ball and say you are not playing any more. 

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #52 - January 09, 2009, 10:28 PM

    Quote
    Yes, I do think it is the correct one in my 'heart of hearts' and I am in no way 'ashamed' to share it.  However, prior experience has shown that, on this issue, people generally seem to be incapable of rational discussion


    Maybe thats because God put a seal on our hearts  Smiley

    Oh wait, thats Islam...


    Life is a sexually transmitted disease which is invariably fatal.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #53 - January 09, 2009, 11:11 PM

    on this issue, people generally seem to be incapable of rational discussion.


    So yo're saying you refuse to answer because you think we cannot discuss it rationally.

    Is that really the reason, Sparky?

  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #54 - January 10, 2009, 09:03 AM

    on this issue, people generally seem to be incapable of rational discussion.


    So yo're saying you refuse to answer because you think we cannot discuss it rationally.

    Is that really the reason, Sparky?

    Read it again.  I said 'people generally'.  I have no idea how you guys would be but I can only go from prior experience of discussions on this issue which give me a general impression and result in a general conclusion.  The fact that you could misunderstand such a simple phrase and interpret it so personally does nothing to reassure me that a discussion here would be any different.

    Similarly the constant insinuation that I have some kind of hidden motive also does little to reassure me that a discussion here would be any different.  The accusation of hidden motives is exactly the thing that tends to derail such discussions.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #55 - July 16, 2010, 04:31 PM

    I can too.

    I think the more the 'debate about Islam' takes place the more people of other faiths cannot help but to see the same faults they find in Islam, within their own religion.


    Who is determining what is a "fault" or not?  What/whose criteria is being used to judge this?

  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #56 - July 16, 2010, 04:41 PM

    you know this threat is 1 and half years old Cheesy

    [13:36] <Fimbles> anything above 7 inches
    [13:37] <Fimbles> is wacko
    [13:37] <Fimbles> see
    [13:37] <Fimbles> you think i'd enjoy anything above 7 inches up my arse?
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #57 - July 16, 2010, 04:47 PM

    So?

    Does that mean it expired?  What are you?  American?

  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #58 - July 16, 2010, 04:51 PM

    HELL YEAH !! AMERICA YEEE-HAA

    OSAMA can't you see  by the dawn's early light What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight

    [13:36] <Fimbles> anything above 7 inches
    [13:37] <Fimbles> is wacko
    [13:37] <Fimbles> see
    [13:37] <Fimbles> you think i'd enjoy anything above 7 inches up my arse?
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #59 - July 16, 2010, 04:53 PM

    What's wrong with you, dude?  lol

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