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Theme Changer

 Topic: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?

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  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #30 - January 21, 2009, 12:19 PM
    I suppose it will come down to personal interpretation. That bit you quoted could be taken either way, depending on your predilection.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #31 - January 21, 2009, 12:49 PM
    True but Confucius, Buddha and Jesus's versions of the Golden Rule are pretty hard to interpret divisively.

    I mean how can "Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful" be interpreted to mean anything other than it says.

    Mahavira surpasses the morality and wisdom of Christianity and Islam in one sentence which is not open to misinterpretation. Nothing about believers or brothers in this....

    "Do not injure, abuse, suppress, enslave, insult, torment, torture or kill any creature or living being.

    Imagine if that was in the Koran, the Islamic world would be a totally different place wouldn't it.
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #32 - January 21, 2009, 12:53 PM
    Sure would.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #33 - January 21, 2009, 02:32 PM
    Quote from: brucepig on January 21, 2009, 12:04 PM
    I just found this quoted as the golden rule as found in Islam but to me it seems less like the golden rule for all humanity but a call for peace and solidarity between the Muslin brethren.

    "No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself"

    For a start it is a divisive call to believers not to all mankind and and it doesn't speak to me of a cessation of cruelty and violence but more of a command to have feelings of goodwill and generosity for your fellow believers which is no bad thing but it is not the golden rule especially when you take into account that Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and atheists don't count as brothers in Islam.

    Perhaps I'm being too harsh. What do you think?

    That is a hadith not a koran btw.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #34 - January 21, 2009, 02:43 PM
    Quote from: learn2bcalm on January 21, 2009, 12:15 PM
    brucepig,
    It is the way people interpret it.

    The very much quoted 'Love thy neighbour' was first intended only towards jews. (I read it in God delusion). However, as the years passed, people's understanding evolved, the same judaism gave gems like.

    Issue with Islam is, Hardliner has achieved much control over it and at the moment, it is like only their interpretation is the correct one.

    RE: Interpretation.

    learn2bcalm, I am curious if you once had to do legal work? ever had to interpret text and come up with a correct (possible) interpretation. A wrong interpretation of a text is not a matter of opinion. A wrong interpretation is is demonstrably wrong.

    If I read a piece of paper from court that states that John has to goto jail and spend 5 years. It is usually written in a legal form that makes it impossible to interpret this paper as anything other then John going to jail for 5 years. John is going to jail.

    In my opinion, trying to interpret the koran into something that it is not, is counter-productive. The best solution is to come right out and state that this text is mutable. That it was written by humans and that it is prone to error.

    Only once you put the origin of text in doubt, can you then open the door for interpretations. Until you put the origin of the text in doubt, the hardliner are correct. And in legal disputes, only the correct interpretations will win.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #35 - January 21, 2009, 03:12 PM
    Baal,
    But why everytime hardliners are correct?
    Religions are not legal document. It something personal between person X and Diety Y which the person believes in. And person X believes text Z is a bridge connection two entities. Weren't Rumi a muslim? I can't see any similarity between characters of Rumi and Muhammed. So, he had his own interpretations. Why that should be less correct than the hard liners one?
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #36 - January 21, 2009, 03:48 PM
    Quote from: learn2bcalm
    The very much quoted 'Love thy neighbour' was first intended only towards jews. (I read it in God delusion). However, as the years passed, people's understanding evolved, the same judaism gave gems like.


    I can see how the passage might be read like that.  This was the original passage:

    Lev 19:17-18
    You shall not hate your fellow countryman in your heart; you may surely reprove your neighbor , but shall not incur sin because of him. 18' You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.
    NASU

    However, with the rest of the text of the law, it is clear that the Israelites were to apply the same laws to all who lived there - whether Israelites or foreignors:

    Num 9:14
    If an alien sojourns among you and observes the Passover to the LORD, according to the statute of the Passover and according to its ordinance, so he shall do; you shall have one statute, both for the alien and for the native of the land.'"
    NASU

    And they are still commanded to love the aliens who were living among them:

    Deut 10:17-20
    For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe. 18 "He executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and shows His love for the alien by giving him food and clothing. 19 " So show your love for the alien , for you were aliens in the land of Egypt.
    NASU

    So I think Jesus application of 'neighbor' to the Samaritans (seen as non-Jews at the time) fits with the overall tenor of the law with regard to individual morality and it doesn't seem to have been a gradual evolution as much as a radical challenge to how the religious leaders of the day had been interpreting it.
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #37 - January 21, 2009, 04:35 PM
    Quote from: learn2bcalm on January 21, 2009, 03:12 PM
    Baal,
    But why everytime hardliners are correct?

    Because the text was written by a hardliner who took precautions to make sure his text can not be misinterpreted. The usage of words like 'excepts' and 'unless', and then using terms in verses that get defined in other chapters later in the book.

    Quote from: learn2bcalm on January 21, 2009, 03:12 PM
    Religions are not legal document. It something personal between person X and Diety Y which the person believes in. And person X believes text Z is a bridge connection two entities.

    What does religions have to do with this. The writers of the koran were writing  a document that will permit there dreams of male arab domination. They were particularly interested in mixing state and religion into One political doctrine. They took precautions to make sure the text is idiot-proof.

    Quote from: learn2bcalm on January 21, 2009, 03:12 PM
    Weren't Rumi a muslim? I can't see any similarity between characters of Rumi and Muhammed. So, he had his own interpretations. Why that should be less correct than the hard liners one?

    Because if you take Rumis interpretation, and compare it to the text the interpretation came from, you, yes you L2b, not me Baal, you L2b can demonstrate Rumis interpretation to be incorrect.

    If you were even to hire a lawyer to help you in proving Rumi correct, your lawyer will recommend to you that you settle with muhammad.

    I think it was shahid that told me of a peaceful imam, who claimed that the sword verses can only be implemented if a khalifa is present. Even if I was to accept the brain gymnastics that a khalifa had to be present. How hard is it to find a khalifa these days? We already have khalifa and thus all the sword verses the peaceful imam tried to toss are back at him out of the craddle.

    The only way to interpret the koran peacefully is to come right out and state that certain verses are wrong. Like the King of Qatar did 2 month ago, he tossed a koran verse (8:3x?) banning hiring people of the book as patrons and then he assigned a jewish woman as a minister.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #38 - January 21, 2009, 08:06 PM
    Quote from: brucepig
    As someone who has looked at all the major religions I have to say for me Muhammad and the Koran seem to be lacking the genuine wisdom that can be found buried deep in Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism.

    I have to agree with Bruce. The evils attributed to religions have three major sources, in my opinion. The first source is the union of political power and religious faith, which can only be defeated through secularism. The second source of evil is mythologising. Religions reject positive science and objective philosophy, and attempt to construct universal truths, which are completely or partially wrong. The third source of their evil originates from the malpractices and immorality of the religion itself.

    The first element does not exist in all religions, and the spread of secularism in the West defeated the political power of the Church, thankfully. Islam is the only major religion to still reject the separation of political power and religious faith. The second element is equally present in all religions, being the very definition of Faith. But the third element exists in different concentrations in different religions. Misogyny, for example.

    Islam happens to gather the worst of all three elements. My opinion of Islam is quite negative --an empty, nihilistic, and backward religion with an aggressive, imperialistic ideology. None of the religions out there are quite as malevolent. Several heterodox branches of Islam, like the Alawis and the Ahmadiyyah, are exempt from this definition.
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #39 - January 22, 2009, 08:37 AM
    Quote from: Zaephon on January 21, 2009, 08:06 PM
    Quote from: brucepig
    As someone who has looked at all the major religions I have to say for me Muhammad and the Koran seem to be lacking the genuine wisdom that can be found buried deep in Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism.

    I have to agree with Bruce. The evils attributed to religions have three major sources, in my opinion. The first source is the union of political power and religious faith, which can only be defeated through secularism. The second source of evil is mythologising. Religions reject positive science and objective philosophy, and attempt to construct universal truths, which are completely or partially wrong. The third source of their evil originates from the malpractices and immorality of the religion itself.

    The first element does not exist in all religions, and the spread of secularism in the West defeated the political power of the Church, thankfully. Islam is the only major religion to still reject the separation of political power and religious faith. The second element is equally present in all religions, being the very definition of Faith. But the third element exists in different concentrations in different religions. Misogyny, for example.

    Islam happens to gather the worst of all three elements. My opinion of Islam is quite negative --an empty, nihilistic, and backward religion with an aggressive, imperialistic ideology. None of the religions out there are quite as malevolent. Several heterodox branches of Islam, like the Alawis and the Ahmadiyyah, are exempt from this definition.

    All we need to prove that the koran can be interpreted positively, is to find a correct and valid interpretation. If the ahmadiyah or the alawis are capable of providing a working interpretation, then great.

    However the ismailis for example came right out and stated that their leader 'agha khan' can change and modify the koran. IMO the only way to interpret the koran correctly and still be compatible with the present trains of thoughts.

    nd even then, they still have to go through extreme brain gymnastics to give good interpretation.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #40 - January 24, 2009, 09:45 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on January 21, 2009, 11:26 AM
    The Koran as a translated book is boring, tedious, mixed up, violent, ignorant, repetitive and divisive


    Personally I find the Bible far more boring and more violent than the Qur'an.


  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #41 - January 24, 2009, 10:03 PM
    Quote from: Baal on January 20, 2009, 03:13 PM
    There is nothing nice about it


    I have said many times that what is nice or not nice about it is subjectice, coloured by ones faith or lack of it and ones interpretation of it.

    Baal, you are an extreme jihadchat/faithfreedom Islam/Muslim hater - you have absolutely no understanding or empathy with Ex-Muslims. You have absolutely no love or even affection for ex-Muslims - yet you insist on taking up residence on an Ex-Muslim site.

    You see Ex-Muslims only as a tool for your own extreme ends.

    I hate the fact that you are here and every time I see your posts it makes me want to leave this place.
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #42 - January 24, 2009, 10:38 PM
    Quote from: Hassan
    Islam/Muslim hater

    I'm sorry, but why equate Islam with Muslims? I find this absurd, this is basically the same mistake of FFI and the Islamists worlwide. If you are not comfortable with people calling the Quran boring and stupid, why did you leave Islam?

    If "what is nice and what is not nice" about the Quran is ultimately subjective, what is wrong with stating our subjective opinions about the Quran?

    Quote from: Hassan
    coloured by ones faith or lack of it and ones interpretation of it.

    Of course when you believe the Quran to be beautiful and full of wisdom, you can imagine it to be that way --you can imagine Allah being all-merciful too, in the same vein. Why do you feel the need to express this rage against "Islam haters" all the time? I am an ex-Muslim and yet I couldn't escape your labels some time ago, either. Do you want continuous censorship in the forums?

    Calling for genocide against Muslims is one thing, calling the Quran boring and stupid is another. Yes, it is a stupid and boring book. Some people may find its Arabic recitation beautiful, but I'm neutral about that too. I don't think Baal is voicing such an extreme view here, not in this thread at least, so what is the problem? Shall we ban every single poster you happen to dislike?
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #43 - January 24, 2009, 11:16 PM
    Quote from: Zaephon on January 24, 2009, 10:38 PM
    If "what is nice and what is not nice" about the Quran is ultimately subjective, what is wrong with stating our subjective opinions about the Quran?


    That's fine, Zaephon, and I don't have a problem with those that see the Qur'an as all bad.

    I personally can see some good in the Qur'an and I can see some good in the Bible - but I reject both as being divine books.

    But Baal is not satisfied with that he insists on imposing his view that the Qur'an is all bad and nothing nice and if you think otherwise you are wrong and 'emotionally' attached or trying to justify the fact you spent most of your life following it etc... (That was a nast comment Baal made earlier).

    It has nothing to do with justifying anything - I have no problem with my life's journey - in fact I'm rather proud of it.

    I have at least been able to see over the fence and rationalise my way out of the beliefs I was surrounded by.

    All ex-Muslims should feel proud of that and not feel anyway defensive or bad about oneself - as Baal's comment made me feel when I first read it.

    In fact I would say that we are in a unique position of having a much broader vision and appreciation of different perspectives than people like Baal - who has remained in his position of hate and never seen any other view.

    I reject the Qur'an, but I can see and understand why some people find good things in it.

    If others don't - fine!

    But to insist with the obsessiveness Baal puts into it is just plain fanaticism.

    Like I said I can't stand Baal being here as he reminds me of FFI/Jihadchat mentality.

    Whenever I see such extreme lopsided views - regardless of who it's from -  I just want to keep away as I don't want to be associated with such hatred.
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #44 - January 25, 2009, 12:06 AM
    Quote from: Hassan
    But to insist with the obsessiveness Baal puts into it is just plain fanaticism.

    If Baal is as hateful as you claim, why not ignore his comments, or refute them? We all hear things we quite don't want to hear. Banning people is not a solution, unless they are trolls or racists.

    Quote from: Hassan
    I personally can see some good in the Qur'an

    Of course there is some good in the Quran. There is no such thing as pure evil. If Islam were pure evil, if Islam were unable to provide some kind of social structure, it would have collapsed a long time ago. Quran plagiarised heavily from other sources, at any rate. There are some good remnants, like verses saying "have respect for your parents" etc.

    Pure evil is just a concept, it cannot be translated into reality. Essentially, the good bits of Islam are exploited by Islamic apologists to augment their defence of Islam, i.e. the "Let there be no compulsion in religion" verse. Meanwhile, oppression of religious minorities and women, murder of dissidents, and political tyranny continue without disturbance. In other words, the good bits of the Quran do not really inspire genuine harmony and peace, but bolster the position of Islamists.   

    I don't see why you are equating "Islam haters" to "Muslim haters" all the time, Hassan. Hatred is a natural emotion, and sometimes it is quite helpful. I have great contempt for Islam, except for some heterodox branches. If a Muslim cannot hate or at least dislike some parts of Islam, how can we expect her to leave Islam?
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #45 - January 25, 2009, 12:46 AM
    Agreed. That's what the ignore function is for. If people get ran out of here for expressing opinions people don't like,  you end up with an echo chamber filled with group think and a mutual admiration society.
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #46 - January 25, 2009, 02:12 AM
    Hass I think the Bible is a boring and tedious read as well but the King James Bible is a beautifully written translation and the Bible is not as muddled as the Koran. Not to mention much of the Koran is a plagiarism of the worst bits of the Bible. Muhammad took the wrong bits from the OT about a vengeful jealous god and the wrong bit from the NT about eternal torture and hell and completely overlooked the wonderful moral teachings like the Golden Rule. 

    For me the Koran cannot be compared to the Bible as it is a plagiarism, badly written and lacking in the morality that can be found hiding in all of the dogma and superstition of the Bible. But as you said this is all subjective. Rumi managed to find much in the Koran to inspire his beautiful teachings so it can't be all bad.

    As for Baal, I understand why you have got the needle with him as he does say things which seem to demonise Islam but in his defence there is so much in Islam that is bad that legitimate criticism of Islam can seem like demonisation and also there is a difference in hating Islam and the Koran and actually being a Muslim hating bigot.
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #47 - January 25, 2009, 08:48 AM
    Quote from: brucepig on January 25, 2009, 02:12 AM
    Hass I think the Bible is a boring and tedious read as well but the King James Bible is a beautifully written translation and the Bible is not as muddled as the Koran. Not to mention much of the Koran is a plagiarism of the worst bits of the Bible. Muhammad took the wrong bits from the OT about a vengeful jealous god and the wrong bit from the NT about eternal torture and hell and completely overlooked the wonderful moral teachings like the Golden Rule. 

    For me the Koran cannot be compared to the Bible as it is a plagiarism, badly written and lacking in the morality that can be found hiding in all of the dogma and superstition of the Bible. But as you said this is all subjective. Rumi managed to find much in the Koran to inspire his beautiful teachings so it can't be all bad.


    Excatly! It is subjective and depends on what culture/environment you have read and understood whatever "Holy" book through.

    I have been reading the King James version and I am finding it so dull and incomprehensible I am finding it hard to keep my eyes open. I definitely find it far more boring than the Qur'an. I am also finding the violence far out-strips anything in the Qur'an.

    Although I no-longer believe in the Qur'an, my previous experience of faith has given me an understanding of what others can see in it.

    That is something Baal has never and will never see as he was brought up in the Coptic Egyptian environment that sees the Qur'an only through the eys of polemics and hatred.

    I have been able to see the good and the bad.

    He has only seen the bad and insists that everyone else must too.

    I think my underlying problem with Baal is I believe he is a die-hard hater and bigot who holds hateful, extremist and just plain crazy views. (i.e. Obama is a secret Muslim planning to help Muslims take-over the world)  He was a resident for years at FFI and still posts on jihadchat one of the most hateful and racist sites on the web - similar to stormfront.

    I hate the way he sits here on an ex-Muslim forum - it is plain to me he actually despises ex-Muslims for being Muslims in the first place and has no interest in understanding or empathizing with them and is here only to spread his own extreme and bigoted hatred of Islam. He always sticks his oar in on threads that seem to be reasonable and turns them sour - if we do get any Muslims or ppl who make a moderate or reasonable comment about Islam, he jumps straight in on the attack.

    I hate the way that I am in any way shape or form, seen to be on his side of the fence.

    Me and him are opposites - he is a bigoted hater - the very same type of hater I wanted to distance my self from when I left Islam.
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #48 - January 25, 2009, 09:02 AM
    Quote from: Baal on January 20, 2009, 03:13 PM
    It is not my fault that you spent many years of your life venerating that book looking for a reason to like it. That was your cross to carry. And I also can not help it if you still have to carry that cross


    This comment reveals the contempt he holds ex-Muslims in and yet he has chosen to set up shop on a site full of Ex-Muslims.

    People he looks down on, despises, holds in contempt, and sneers at.... all for the sake of attacking Islam.

    But to him the "Ends justify the means" - he talks about how Muslims practice taqiyya, yet he is the one who practices it the most.
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #49 - January 25, 2009, 09:04 AM
    Quote from: brucepig on January 25, 2009, 02:12 AM
    the Koran is a plagiarism of the worst bits of the Bible.

    I liked to point out that some of the stories in the Qur'an aren't found in the Bible, but are in the Midrash, and Talmud. Wink

    Quote from: brucepig on January 25, 2009, 02:12 AM
    Muhammad (...) completely overlooked the wonderful moral teachings like the Golden Rule.

    Quote from: Muhammad, an-Nawawi's 40, #13
    None of you truly believes til you love for your brother what you love for yourself.

    Quote from: Hassan on January 25, 2009, 08:48 AM
    I have been reading the King James version and I am finding it so dull and incomprehensible I am finding it hard to keep my eyes open.

    It is dull and hard to read. I've been attending the weekly Torah study at the local Reform Synagogue (the Rabbi there is great, agnostic, points out how the text was shaped, errors, etc.) and it's still hard to motivate myself to read ahead to be ready to discuss it.

    I hope it's recognized by visitors that it's only tolerance that Baal's still around...
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #50 - January 25, 2009, 09:14 AM
    Quote from: Zaephon on January 25, 2009, 12:06 AM
    Banning people is not a solution, unless they are trolls or racists.


    btw I am not calling for him to be banned. I don't think I have ever called for anyone to be banned. I don't actually believe in banning anyone except in the most exceptional circumstances.

    I am only saying that I feel deeply uncomfortable about being in the same (virtual) room as him and every time I see him, I feel like heading for the door.
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #51 - January 25, 2009, 12:51 PM
    Woah now, I think I understand. If his history on other forums is as bad as you say then I agree with you. In fact I'm ashamed of my own history which after reading the Koran was quite similar. It was your videos that bought some sanity to the proceedings.

    Thank you dance

    But be aware that a Coptic Christian probably has the right to shit all over Islam from a high height due to the shit that they go through in Egypt
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #52 - January 25, 2009, 01:03 PM
    Hassan,

    I personally believe that 'Islam is a bag mix of good and bad. Every religion is like that. Only issue with Islam is hard liners are kind of hijacking it at the moment. ' So, I obviously don't agree to Baal at all. You can see my posts in this thread.

    I admire you as a very sensitive peace loving human being. However, I have noticed that you are unable to take the fact that Baal carries different opinions than yours. Our circumstances definitely plays a very big roles in building up our opinions. Would you have same thoughts about Islam/ Muslim if you were a Bangladeshi Hindu? But, unfortunately I have seen you making perosnal comments on Baal. Difference of opinions does not decrease his credibility as a good human which he can be (I am sure he is). If you feel, you can never get on then you can just ignore him rather than kind of demonizing him everytime he writes something. On the other hand, Baal is only concentrating on your points in debate and not throwing personal comments. Rather, he has also admired your videos etc.

    Plus, the over all tone of the forum and opinion of many members matches with yours. But, everyone can't be Hassan, right?
     
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #53 - January 25, 2009, 01:27 PM
    Quote from: learn2bcalm on January 25, 2009, 01:03 PM
    Baal is only concentrating on your points in debate and not throwing personal comments.


    Actually he does make personal comments and does it in his usual snide subtle way, like this comment:

    Quote from: Baal on January 20, 2009, 03:13 PM
    It is not my fault that you spent many years of your life venerating that book looking for a reason to like it. That was your cross to carry. And I also can not help it if you still have to carry that cross


    As though I should feel ashamed of being a Muslim or that I have to justify the fact that I believed in the Qur'an.

    What makes this even more nasty is the fact that this is an ex-Muslim site where there are - of course - lots of people who used to be Muslims, many of whom - like me - come here because they want to find people who understand what they've been through, and where they are comming from and look for support.

    Not to be belittled by a bigot who has spent his life within his own comfort zone of hate.

    Why, exactly is Baal here?

    If he sees this site as a good tool to further his hate mission - and if he is right - then I must ask, what am I doing here?
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #54 - January 25, 2009, 03:22 PM
    I kind of agree with you Hass, well I sympathise but I think you are being a tad sensitive and over blown in your scramble to distance yourself from bigotry. If Baal is being over the top, fuck him.

    A man of your caliber who deals with impostors and haters every day I'm sure the least of your worries is Mr Baal.

    If he's full of anger and anti Islam rhetoric! I can assure you, you don't have to distance yourself from his anger. You are quite clearly a kind hearted man whos only reason for being here is his quest for truth.

    Nuf respec.

    PS: Never feel the need to distance yourself from bigots. Your a million miles away from that crap. Anyone who thinks your a bad guy just direct them to one of your videos and they will see, they speak for themselves.

    If they still think your a nutter after seeing your vids then they are beyond reason.
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #55 - January 25, 2009, 04:15 PM
    Quote from: Hassan
    Not to be belittled by a bigot who has spent his life within his own comfort zone of hate.

    You cannot know what kind of experiences people have gone through. What makes you so sensitive about "Islam haters" are your negative experiences with British nationalists. You have expressed this before. Christians in Egypt have to endure that kind of crap all the time.

    Maybe you are right about Baal's history, but I still have to object to your comments which equate "Islam haters" to "Muslim haters." Aren't you defeating the purpose of the forum with that equation? You have called me a "bigot" before too, so I have to take all this talk about bigots and haters with a pinch of salt.

    I think you and Jack are taking this anti-bigotry stance a little too far, labelling people who disagree with your views. I remember how Jack accused me of "stereotyping Muslims" only recently. This forum needs no official ideology. If you have sympathy for Muslims that's fine, if you don't agree that the Quran is evil that's also fine, but when you call people who disagree with you "haters" or "bigots" you lose credibility.

    Quote from: Hassan
    Why, exactly is Baal here?

    So, if banning Baal and other "Islam haters" is not your suggestion, then what is? I have seen plenty of intelligent posts from Baal in this forum. I don't know about his career in other forums, though.

    Quote from: Baal
    It is not my fault that you spent many years of your life venerating that book looking for a reason to like it. That was your cross to carry. And I also can not help it if you still have to carry that cross

    Well, this is a somewhat snide comment alright, but it is definitely not Stormfront material.
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #56 - January 25, 2009, 04:51 PM
    Quote from: Zaephon on January 25, 2009, 04:15 PM

    I think you and Jack are taking this anti-bigotry stance a little too far, labelling people who disagree with your views. I remember how Jack accused me of "stereotyping Muslims" only recently. This forum needs no official ideology. If you have sympathy for Muslims that's fine, if you don't agree that the Quran is evil that's also fine, but when cannot call people who disagree with you "haters" or "bigots" you lose credibility.



    Please don't bring Jack into this, Zaephon.

    I am not responsible for what he says nor should you assume I am always in agreement with him.
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #57 - January 25, 2009, 05:28 PM
    Quote from: brucepig on January 25, 2009, 03:22 PM
    well I sympathise but I think you are being a tad sensitive and over blown in your scramble to distance yourself from bigotry. If Baal is being over the top, fuck him.

    Ditto with this bit. There's always going to be people you're going to disagree with Hassan but you have to allow freedom of speech. I haven't seen anything by Baal criticising muslims as a people but if he has done that than it is not on. However I do sympathise with his rather anti-Islam stance, it is very difficult to see good in something that has betrayed you and has caused so much corruption in the world. I know it is not the only thing that has done this but when you've grown up being taught it is perfect it hits you harder than anything else when you find the real truth.

    While I really do respect your position Hassan and admire your opinions greatly, I feel Baal has every right to feel as bitter as he has done in this thread. He is entitled to his own opinion. If it really bothers you so much Hassan I recommend that you just ignore it.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #58 - January 25, 2009, 05:47 PM
    If Baal isn't breaking any forum rules, and thus far I can't see that he has, then he has a right to his opinions just like the rest of us do.

    People have a choice to make if they find his (or anyone's) comments objectionable: they can put him on ignore, or put on the big boy pants and engage his arguments or shrug them off.

  • Re: People who have tried to meet the Quran's challenge?
     Reply #59 - January 25, 2009, 06:55 PM
    OK guys, I'll lay off him if he lays off me.
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