Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


What music are you listen...
by zeca
Today at 06:31 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
November 22, 2024, 02:51 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
November 22, 2024, 06:45 AM

Gaza assault
November 21, 2024, 07:56 PM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
November 21, 2024, 05:07 PM

New Britain
November 20, 2024, 05:41 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
November 20, 2024, 09:02 AM

Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
November 19, 2024, 11:36 PM

Dutch elections
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 10:11 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 08:46 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
November 07, 2024, 09:56 AM

The origins of Judaism
by zeca
November 02, 2024, 12:56 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.

 (Read 229376 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 8 9 1011 12 ... 16 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #270 - July 23, 2013, 11:01 AM

    Here's one going round twitter now.
    "Yesterday was the 13th day of Ramadan and the thundering began then. Also, the 13th Surah Ra'ad is translated to "Thunder". SubhanAllah"

    Yeah, apart from the fact that there wasn't thunder and rain everywhere and some people started Ramadan one day after. Making it the 12th day of Ramadan for them.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #271 - July 26, 2013, 05:27 PM


    I know this scientific fact to be true, and the Qur'an is written by God and is therefore infallible, therefore, the Qur'an cannot mean anything else.

    Now, I would like to talk about the actual so called scientific miracles in the Qur'an.

    I would like to start at the beginning with the big bang. The Qur'an apparently describes the big bang with the following verse

    21:30 Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

    This verse clearly does not mention the conditions of the big bang. This states that the heavens and the earth were two separate entities and they were split apart. The Earth is actually a part of the universe, not separate from it.


    The words used for "Joined Together"  is “ratgan”, which means something fused and inseperable. This is used for when a mother is carrying a child. The words used for "clove them asunder" is “fatagah”, which means spread out. This is used when a mother is starting to deliver her child.

    Secondly, Dr Zakir Naik claims that the Qur'an states that the sun rotates around the centre of the galaxy with the following verse

    21:33 It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.

    This verse clearly states that the sun and the moon rotate around the Earth, as was commonly believed at the time which agreed with the Aristotelian model of a geocentric universe. Why would God refer to the sun rotating around the centre of the galaxy in a verse about night and day? If that was the case, the verse would not make much sense.

    The following verse is supposed proof that the Qur'an states that the universe is expanding which has only been discovered in the past one hundred years-

    "Kullun fi fallak" means "each in their own orbit". If the quran is talking about the night and day and the sun and moon, then the quran is wrong because the night and day are in one orbit. If it's not night, then it's day and if it's not day, then it's night. The day and night are only on earth.  That's why scholars say 'this verse refers to the earth, moon and sun having their own orbits'.


    51:47 With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.

    However, nowhere in this verse does it say that the Universe is expanding, only that it is very big!

    There are also many other verses which I will not go into much detail about because they are debatable, such as whether the Qur'an states that the Earth is flat or round. However, even if the Qur'an did state that the earth is a sphere, that would not be a scientific miracle as this fact has been commonly known for more than 2500 years.


    Lastly I would like to talk about the concept of the 7 heavens in the Qur'an.

    41:12 "So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard."

    The idea of the seven heavens is very ancient and was well founded at that time which is completely contradictory to what we now know. This concept comes from the idea that the first heaven is the sun, the second heaven is the moon and the third to seventh heavens are mercury, venus, mars, saturn and jupiter. This verse also states that the stars are closer to the earth than the moon as they are in the lowest heaven!

    I know a Muslim might say that this refers to a different concept of the seven heavens. But if that was the case, surely God would have explained it further, otherwise people would just think that it refers to what they already believed. If I was to write a book now, and in it I would refer to a completely new idea that I had and I called it "the big bang theory", it would be required for me to explain it further, otherwise people would just assume I was talking about what they all know to be the big bang theory.

    I TOTALLY agree. These verse are taken out of context to somehow be scientific miracles, when they clearly mean something else. It's disappointing.
    In conclusion,  if the Qur'an was written by an all knowing, all powerful god as a guide for people to follow, surely he would not write ambiguous verses that can be taken to mean anything. Evidence of the divine nature of the Qur'an would be a verse which clearly referred to scientific knowledge which was not known at the time, was not ambiguous, and which could not be refuted. However, there are no verses in the Qur'an which are like that.


    There are people, at that time, who would deny the quran if it went against any of the claims by scholars. This is why there are some very vague claims in the quran. If the quran was using clear meanings then it would contradict some scholars beliefs, at that time. People would deny it, just for that.
    There are many verse that can't be refuted e.g isostasy. If I have the time then, inshallah, I'll show you.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #272 - July 26, 2013, 05:42 PM

    Also:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf_l1uhYNXA
    This is totally mindblowing.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #273 - July 26, 2013, 06:04 PM

    The skeleton is the first thing to form in the embryo/foetus. Says so in the quran. Wrong. Women are defective in intelligence. Have a look at the women in MENSA. Wrong. The sun orbits the Earth. Wrong. the stars are missiles. Wrong. Mohammed was the perfect man. Wrong. The quran in it's entirety is perfect. Wrong. The list goes on.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #274 - July 26, 2013, 06:16 PM

    Quote
    The skeleton is the first thing to form in the embryo/foetus. Says so in the quran. Wrong.

    The quran never says this, but Keith Moore does. And, to some muslims, Keith Moore is like a commentator of the quran. The Quran does say A'laga tho:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYajKl-Xr6c
    Quote
    Women are defective in intelligence. Have a look at the women in MENSA. Wrong.

     I know a report about this saying men are better at logic and deduction then women whilst women are better at communication and recognising expressions then men. Intelligence is dependent on logic (right?).I saw this a long time ago but I'll look for it.
    Quote
    The sun orbits the Earth. Wrong. the stars are missiles. Wrong.

     You probably got this from wikiislam. Guess what, their not muslim. They are amusing, but not true. http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Science
     
    Quote
    Mohammed was the perfect man. Wrong. The quran in it's entirety is perfect. Wrong. The list goes on.

    Scholars say he is the most-perfect because the prophet did make mistakes. the Quran iss perfect. This is kinda offtopic.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #275 - July 26, 2013, 06:33 PM

    Oh for fuck's sake, not another Muslim apologist moron. No one wants your little silly religion and you're not going to change any minds here. Go away. You're killing my vibe.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #276 - July 26, 2013, 06:37 PM

    Actually I've read the quran.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #277 - July 26, 2013, 06:48 PM

     
    Women are defective in intelligence. Have a look at the women in MENSA. Wrong.

    "Areas where differences in mean scores have been found include verbal and mathematical ability."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_human_psychology
    It explains more within the link.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #278 - July 26, 2013, 06:51 PM

    Quote
    The quran never says this


    Yes it does. "Fa khalaqna al 'alaqata mudhghatan fa khalaqna al mudhghata 'ithaman fa kasawnaa al 'ithama lahmaa"


    "So we made the clot a morsel, so we made the morsel bones, so we clothed the bones (with) meat." And that's after saying that man was made of clay, by the way. So, yeah, wrong.

    Quote
    You probably got this from wikiislam. Guess what, their not muslim. They are amusing, but not true.


    Guess what. The word is "they're" not "their." And you don't have to be a Muslim to point out that Islam is false. In fact, once you figure that out, it kinda takes you out of Islam anyway.

    Quote
    I know a report about this saying men are better at logic and deduction then women whilst women are better at communication and recognising expressions then men. Intelligence is dependent on logic (right?).I saw this a long time ago but I'll look for it.


    There are plenty of women on this forum who are far better at logic and deduction--and far more intelligent--than you will ever be.
    Quote
    Scholars say he is the most-perfect because the prophet did make mistakes.


    Yeah. Like starting up such a backwards religion

    Now seriously, go away.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #279 - July 26, 2013, 07:01 PM

    And then there's current trends in school grades, sciences, IQ and employment performance. Which is actually confirmed in the link you gave me. "Because social and environmental factors affect brain activity and behaviour, where differences are found, it can be difficult for researchers to assess whether or not the differences are innate". Adam and Eve never existed, there never were giants, and the stars aren't missiles to be hurled at jinns. Even if the quran gots some things right, the things it gets wrong invalidate it as divine.

    And to be honest that's really it. There are mistakes in the quran. There are things it claims which have been proven false. If you were to say flat out it was inspired by the divine but is subject to human error you'd still have a valid argument theologically speaking. But the claim is perfection. Perfect truth. Which has proven untrue.

    Now please respect the fact this is a site to offer support to people who for a number of reasons are having difficulty leaving the faith and need said support. I realise you're a believer but some human empathy and compassion would be appreciated.

    There are sites we can access if we wish to go to debate believers. This is not one of them.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #280 - July 26, 2013, 07:11 PM

    Yes it does. "Fa khalaqna al 'alaqata mudhghatan fa khalaqna al mudhghata 'ithaman fa kasawnaa al 'ithama lahmaa"

    "So we made the clot a morsel, so we made the morsel bones, so we clothed the bones (with) meat." And that's after saying that man was made of clay, by the way. So, yeah, wrong.

    The quran does not say "The skeleton is the first thing to form in the embryo/foetus."
    Quote
    Guess what. The word is "they're" not "their." And you don't have to be a Muslim to point out that Islam is false. In fact, once you figure that out, it kinda takes you out of Islam anyway.

    Show me that the quran says "The sun orbits the Earth." and "the stars are missiles."
    Quote
    There are plenty of women on this forum who are far better at logic and deduction--and far more intelligent--than you will ever be.

    I thought your life revolved around empirical evidence, but when I show you it then you deny it. It's disappointing. Science doesn't work like that. First you have to show that majority of women are better at logic and deduction then men. Then you can claim this.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #281 - July 26, 2013, 07:15 PM

    Come back once you've read through the Quran.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #282 - July 26, 2013, 07:15 PM

    I thought your life revolved around empirical evidence, but when I show you it then you deny it. It's disappointing. Science doesn't work like that. First you have to show that majority of women are better at logic and deduction then men. Then you can claim this.

    He didn't say better than men. He said better than you.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #283 - July 26, 2013, 07:19 PM

    "First you have to show that majority of women are better at logic and deduction then men." The quran makes the claim on an individualistic level. Statistics mean nothing to the individual. Also, statistically women nowadays are either outperforming men or on the same level. Now again, this is a support site. If you have read any number of posts you should well know the turmoil many are going through and that this is the last thing they need. Again, please respect this.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #284 - July 26, 2013, 07:33 PM



    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #285 - July 26, 2013, 07:39 PM

    ^ Speaking of one of those women who are most certainly more intelligent than you...^
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #286 - July 26, 2013, 07:56 PM

    Can't help but notice the lack of reply to women in MENSA (basically a super genius club, only 2% of the human population have an IQ high enough to be members) and the fact that nowadays with equal rights (note the link he gave me which clearly stated "Because social and environmental factors affect brain activity and behaviour, where differences are found, it can be difficult for researchers to assess whether or not the differences are innate") women are outperforming or at the same level as men.

    I was also asked where in the quran it says the sun orbits the Earth.

    “(God is) the one Who created the night, the day, the sun and the moon. Each one is travelling in an orbit with its own motion” (Sura 21: 33).

    It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law)(Sura 36: 40).

    "And He made the sun and the moon subservient for you which are constantly moving" (Al-Quran, part 13, Sura Abraheem - 14, Verse 23)

    May have fun and feed the troll, may starve the troll and watch him wander to pastures new. We'll see how it goes.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #287 - July 26, 2013, 08:00 PM

    I could have given him the verses he asked for AND taught him to recite them properly. There are just too many idiots on the internet for me to debate with each one who pops up on the forum.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #288 - July 26, 2013, 08:04 PM

    Seriously, how did you survive living in Saudi Arabia? I wasn't sure I'd make it out of rural Pennsylvania.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #289 - July 26, 2013, 08:08 PM

     Cheesy Rural Pennsylvania is the fucking twilight zone.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #290 - July 26, 2013, 08:11 PM

    You probably got this from wikiislam.


    i hear muslims says this type of thing a lot. They probably got it from Islamictosh.com.

  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #291 - July 26, 2013, 08:20 PM

    At one point I was in Mormon country, the amount of shit people were coming out with, I thought it was my duty to point out some truths. More than once I thought I was going to be shot. The fact there were a few things I admitted I didn't know but could recommend experts who have studied it their entire lives and actually have proof, now that seemed to anger them more. Oh, and I have to tell you this. I was talking to a short person, can't remember the name, in my head I call the individual Tiny Tim.

    Me: You realise 20% of Americans don't realise the Earth revolves around the sun?
    Tim:  The Earth revolves around the sun?
    I was shocked into silence for a moment. Then replied: Yes, right then. 20% of Americans don't realise the Earth revolves around the sun. The other 80% believe the sun is dragged through the sky by a flying golden chariot driven the Jesus.

    The look of confusion was depressing.

    And oh how I had to explain that stem cell research doesn't come from evil scientists with horns and fangs creeping into the bedrooms of sleeping expectant mothers in the dead of night and steal helpless unborns. Sigh. Thank fuck I'm English.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #292 - July 26, 2013, 09:17 PM

    Come back once you've read through the Quran.

    Should I read the whole quran over three simple claims? I know the wording and context and I know that's enough to make/break a claim, unless other verses contradict my meaning.
    1. Does the quran say the bone was formed before the skin? No, because Thumma doesn't represent a sequence. Thumma means something happened simultaniously or right after one another, without claiming which happened first. I think it's better to hear it from Adnan Rashid (go to 6.30):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA9RnYpM7ME
    The video is a response to all the anti-islam videos (*cough* stopspamming1 *cough*)
    2."The sun orbits the Earth."

    “(God is) the one Who created the night, the day, the sun and the moon. Each one is travelling in an orbit with its own motion” (Sura 21: 33).

    I've gone through this verse and used it to show that the quran says the earth,moon and sun have an orbit.
    It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law)(Sura 36: 40).

    This doesn't suggest there in the same orbit and it also doesn't say there in different. This is one of the 'vague' parts of the quran which doesn't contradict with both our belief and the belief at the time.
    "And He made the sun and the moon subservient for you which are constantly moving" (Al-Quran, part 13, Sura Abraheem - 14, Verse 23)

    I can't find this verse. It's not 13:23. Never the less it doesn't deny reality. The sun, like the rest of the stars in the milky way, does have an orbit.
    3. "the stars are missiles."
    This is quite a weird claim and Wikiislam doesn't even claim this, but wikiislam isn't very smart and this might be legit. Please show me the verses for this.

    Sorry for the late reply. I was breaking my fast.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #293 - July 26, 2013, 09:28 PM

    Can't help but notice the lack of reply to women in MENSA (basically a super genius club, only 2% of the human population have an IQ high enough to be members) and the fact that nowadays with equal rights (note the link he gave me which clearly stated "Because social and environmental factors affect brain activity and behaviour, where differences are found, it can be difficult for researchers to assess whether or not the differences are innate") women are outperforming or at the same level as men.

    I heard that 1/3 of mensa was women in 1998 or something and in 2010, 65% of mensa was men.http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110103071424AAQvTVsI couldn't find any claim that there were more women than men. I'm in denmark and I don't know much about these stuff in america.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #294 - July 26, 2013, 10:01 PM

    "The sun orbits the Earth." I've gone through this verse and used it to show that the quran says the earth,moon and sun have an orbit.This doesn't suggest there in the same orbit and it also doesn't say there in different.


    What? The verse clearly implies that the sun and the moon are both orbiting the earth and causing the day and the night. And it never says that the earth has an orbit.

    Quote
    It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon,
    nor can the Night outstrip the Day


    This is one of the 'vague' parts of the quran which doesn't contradict with both our belief and the belief at the time.


    Well if it's so vague then it is not saying anything so what is the point of it? If it does not contradict the wrong beliefs of the time then it reinforces them. So why is God reinforcing wrong beliefs?

    If the author intended it to mean that the moon revolves around the earth but the sun does not then it would not make any sense because it then says that the night cannot outstrip the day

    3. "the stars are missiles."
    This is quite a weird claim and Wikiislam doesn't even claim this, but wikiislam isn't very smart and this might be legit. Please show me the verses for this.


    Quote
    And indeed We have adorned the nearest heaven with lamps, and We have made such lamps (as) missiles to drive away the Shayatin (devils)

    http://quran.com/67/5

    Ok here is another ridiculous scientific inaccuracy:

    To Noah:
    Quote
    "Load upon the ship of each [creature] two mates...

    http://quran.com/11/40

    How are you going to fit all land animals on a single ship? There are millions of animal species. Watch this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmaE1966kjo
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #295 - July 26, 2013, 10:07 PM

    Please tell me this is Dahir and that there really isn't some type of oompa loompa factory mass producing fuckwitts like this.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #296 - July 26, 2013, 10:17 PM

    Oh look! Another example of the quran being wrong about the stars...

    Quote
    [Saffat 37:6] We have indeed adorned the lowest heaven with stars as ornaments.

    [Saffat 37:7] And to protect it from every rebellious devil.

    [Saffat 37:8] They cannot listen to the speech of those on higher elevations and they are targeted from every side.

    [Saffat 37:9] To make them flee, and for them is a never-ending punishment.

    [Saffat 37:10] Except one who sometimes steals a part, so a blazing flame goes after him.

  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #297 - July 26, 2013, 10:21 PM

    I heard that 1/3 of mensa was women in 1998 or something and in 2010, 65% of mensa was men.
    [...]
    I'm in denmark and I don't know much about these stuff in america.

    Jamen davs du Tongue

    Denmark: 1100 members, 25% are female. But some of that I attribute to many men being ego hunters. I know some people who were eager to get into Mensa. Generally I personally found them to be pretty full of themselves (albeit nice people IRL - went wrong a few times when only using written online medias).
    Above information from here (in Danish).

    Note that Danish Mensa says it can't see a significant difference between genders in the tests people take at that particular Mensa-branch.

    Also, the spread in raw intelligence among a full population (as opposed to those opting to take the Mensa test) I seem to recall is much wider among males. So they get the geniuses and the very low-function vegetables more than women do all in all (my mother worked schooling mentally handicapped kids and the worst cases always seemed to be male - at least to my child's eyes back then).

    My 2 øre.

    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #298 - July 26, 2013, 10:24 PM

    Please tell me this is Dahir and that there really isn't some type of oompa loompa factory mass producing fuckwitts like this.

    I'm afraid it is Denmark's contribution to Islam. Sorry for that.

    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #299 - July 26, 2013, 10:45 PM

    It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law)(Sura 36: 40).

    Even if we assume for a moment that AlwaysSmilin is right and this is a "vague" portion of the Qu'ran that doesn't imply that the sun and moon orbit the Earth, this verse never really jived with me for other reasons. What about eclipses--aren't those examples of when one "catches up" to the other? Or, if it's referring to the concept of night and day--what about those phases of the lunar cycle when the moon is present and visible during the day?
  • Previous page 1 ... 8 9 1011 12 ... 16 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »