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 Topic: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?

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  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     OP - March 01, 2009, 10:32 PM
    Hi everyone - hope u r all OK Smiley

    I just put this vid up for those who are interested.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO00lao-AOE

    Peace Smiley
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #1 - March 01, 2009, 11:49 PM
    Nice vid, and good to see you back  Afro
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  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #2 - March 02, 2009, 01:36 AM
    I fully support your message. Thanks for this video, Hassan.
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
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    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #3 - March 02, 2009, 10:09 AM
    Hi guys and thanks, hope all is well here  Afro

    I will be limiting my time online from now on, but will pop in from time to time.

    Peace to all Smiley
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #4 - March 02, 2009, 01:21 PM
    Very well done, nice points covered Hassan.
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #5 - March 02, 2009, 11:32 PM
    Quote from: Calm on March 02, 2009, 01:21 PM
    Very well done, nice points covered Hassan.


    Thanks, Calm.

    The video seems to have generated quite a debate. My main concern, which most here hopefully will appreciate, is that I don't want ordinary and peaceful Muslims lumped in with the extremists.

    Regardless of what one thinks of modernist or peaceful interpretations, there seems to be nothing to gain by insisting that the terrorists Islam is "true Islam".

    Like I said in the video, if Catholicism can take a position that "Violence is contrary to God's Nature" despite the violent God of the Old testament then why should anyone complain if Muslims turn "Hit them" into "Leave them alone".

    So long as they move away from violence why should I care if they want to cling to their comfort blanket despite all reason?

  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #6 - March 03, 2009, 10:24 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 02, 2009, 11:32 PM
    Thanks, Calm.

    The video seems to have generated quite a debate. My main concern, which most here hopefully will appreciate, is that I don't want ordinary and peaceful Muslims lumped in with the extremists.

    Regardless of what one thinks of modernist or peaceful interpretations, there seems to be nothing to gain by insisting that the terrorists Islam is "true Islam".

    Like I said in the video, if Catholicism can take a position that "Violence is contrary to God's Nature" despite the violent God of the Old testament then why should anyone complain if Muslims turn "Hit them" into "Leave them alone".

    So long as they move away from violence why should I care if they want to cling to their comfort blanket despite all reason?



    Yep, we can only argue that all Abrahmic religions should be banned, changed or kept as is.  Yes, Islam is the worst of the group, but the principle remains the same as they all contain provocative verses and we cannot choose a different approach for different beliefs.

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  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #7 - March 03, 2009, 01:28 PM
    My concern is not whether Islam can reform - but that one should differentiate, like Maryam Namazie does, and most intelligent commentators do.

    Firstly because - as I say, there are many Muslims out there who believe in peaceful interpretations and they manage - one way or another to get round the violent verses. If any of you sat down with some of the very moderate Sheikhs and Muslims I know you would be astonished how they interpret things and get round any violent or nasty verses.

    It doesn't matter if you or I buy it.

    The point is they do and they are quite convinced and adamant that the fundamentalists are absolutely wrong.

    Secondly - and even more importantly - we need to separate ourselves from the bigots and xenophobes who have other agendas.

    Thirdly - and perhaps most importantly of all - we need to show ordinary decent Muslims we don't hate them which will help them accept that people do leave Islam - it's not a problem - and they just need to get over it.

  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #8 - March 03, 2009, 01:50 PM
    Exactly- just laying into Islam is a short termist approach, and achieves nothing as none of us believe in Islam anyway.

    Believe me, as someone who has had countless debates with Muslims, this approach distances Muslims who may even be thinking of joining us, and makes them hate us instead.
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #9 - March 03, 2009, 01:57 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 03, 2009, 01:50 PM
    Believe me, as someone who has had countless debates with Muslims, this approach distances Muslims who may even be thinking of joining us, and makes them hate us instead.


    Is that why more people postt testimonies of leaving Islam on FFI than here?  Roll Eyes
    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #10 - March 03, 2009, 02:00 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on March 03, 2009, 01:57 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 03, 2009, 01:50 PM
    Believe me, as someone who has had countless debates with Muslims, this approach distances Muslims who may even be thinking of joining us, and makes them hate us instead.


    Is that why more people postt testimonies of leaving Islam on FFI than here?  Roll Eyes


    No, its because we don't have a Testimonies of Leaving Islam forum, whereas FFI do.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #11 - March 03, 2009, 02:02 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 03, 2009, 01:28 PM
    My concern is not whether Islam can reform - but that one should differentiate, like Maryam Namazie does, and most intelligent commentators do.

    Firstly because - as I say, there are many Muslims out there who believe in peaceful interpretations and they manage - one way or another to get round the violent verses. If any of you sat down with some of the very moderate Sheikhs and Muslims I know you would be astonished how they interpret things and get round any violent or nasty verses.

    It doesn't matter if you or I buy it.

    The point is they do and they are quite convinced and adamant that the fundamentalists are absolutely wrong.

    Secondly - and even more importantly - we need to separate ourselves from the bigots and xenophobes who have other agendas.

    Thirdly - and perhaps most importantly of all - we need to show ordinary decent Muslims we don't hate them which will help them accept that people do leave Islam - it's not a problem - and they just need to get over it.




    QFT. 

    I was going to join in the debate on your You Tube bit last night, but the vid itself seemed like such basic common sense I didn't bother.  Anyone who doesn't get it, probly just doesn't want to.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #12 - March 03, 2009, 02:03 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on March 03, 2009, 02:00 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on March 03, 2009, 01:57 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 03, 2009, 01:50 PM
    Believe me, as someone who has had countless debates with Muslims, this approach distances Muslims who may even be thinking of joining us, and makes them hate us instead.


    Is that why more people postt testimonies of leaving Islam on FFI than here?  Roll Eyes


    No, its because we don't have a Testimonies of Leaving Islam forum, whereas FFI do.


    Ex Muslim Bios doesn't serve the same purpose?
    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #13 - March 03, 2009, 02:07 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on March 03, 2009, 02:03 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on March 03, 2009, 02:00 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on March 03, 2009, 01:57 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 03, 2009, 01:50 PM
    Believe me, as someone who has had countless debates with Muslims, this approach distances Muslims who may even be thinking of joining us, and makes them hate us instead.


    Is that why more people postt testimonies of leaving Islam on FFI than here?  Roll Eyes


    No, its because we don't have a Testimonies of Leaving Islam forum, whereas FFI do.


    Ex Muslim Bios doesn't serve the same purpose?


    Not specifically, no.  People can, (and have), posted testimonies of leaving Islam there, but people have also posted their "leaving Islam" stories in their intro threads, or even in general threads in the religion section.  Ex muslim blogs and bios contains a more diverse set of threads than just "why I left". 

    Plus, you're not comparing like with like because FFI has been around for 9 years, this forum for less than a year and a half. 
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #14 - March 03, 2009, 02:09 PM
    But in theory,  in accordance with what Islame said, the approach taken by FFI should repel new testimonies and Ex-Muslims. It does the opposite.

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #15 - March 03, 2009, 02:14 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on March 03, 2009, 02:09 PM
    But in theory,  in accordance with what Islame said, the approach taken by FFI should repel new testimonies and Ex-Muslims. It does the opposite.




    I've no idea whether FFI repels more ex-muslims than it attracts, or vice versa, I haven't seen any evidence either way.  I know ex-muslims who have been repelled by it though, eg, Hassan who says FFI delayed his apostasy.  So, obviously Islame's theory holds true for some muslims anyway.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #16 - March 03, 2009, 02:44 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on March 03, 2009, 02:09 PM
    But in theory,  in accordance with what Islame said, the approach taken by FFI should repel new testimonies and Ex-Muslims. It does the opposite.

    I don't think either FFI or CEMB is capable of converting people. They will attract ex-muslims no doubt as they all need somewhere to go for comfort. People who are on the fence have two choices; consult muslims for answers or visit sites like these to see what made them to turn away.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #17 - March 03, 2009, 02:46 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on March 03, 2009, 02:44 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on March 03, 2009, 02:09 PM
    But in theory,  in accordance with what Islame said, the approach taken by FFI should repel new testimonies and Ex-Muslims. It does the opposite.

    I don't think either FFI or CEMB is capable of converting people. They will attract ex-muslims no doubt as they all need somewhere to go for comfort. People who are on the fence have two choices; consult muslims for answers or visit sites like these to see what made them to turn away.


    Not so, it converted me from avid believer to person with doubts to Ex-Muslim. When I read it in 2006 I was an avid defender of Islam and I used to pray-after that I started having doubts (of course I had doubts before but these were the doubts that all Muslims have-minor).
    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #18 - March 03, 2009, 03:19 PM
    My question isn't really about Islam, but more of one based on life experience and how to get your point across.

    Its an interesting point, and difficult to prove as we have no evidence either way.  Correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying you became an apostate because of FFI, and FFI's tone is generally more convincing that the one set here?

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #19 - March 03, 2009, 03:31 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 03, 2009, 03:19 PM
    My question isn't really about Islam, but more of one based on life experience and how to get your point across.

    Its an interesting point, and difficult to prove as we have no evidence either way.  Correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying you became an apostate because of FFI, and FFI's tone is generally more convincing that the one set here?




    I am indeed saying I became an apostate because of FFI. Technically, all who leave Islam leave because of it's own content of course, but what I mean is that if it wasn't for FFI, I wouldn't have looked further into Islam and found what I did.

    Also I find it more convincing as a lot of people over there have sent in letters as Muslims and then later posted testimonies as ex Muslims. It works.

    My opinion of course, like you said, there is no empirical data either way.
    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #20 - March 03, 2009, 03:33 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on March 03, 2009, 02:46 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on March 03, 2009, 02:44 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on March 03, 2009, 02:09 PM
    But in theory,  in accordance with what Islame said, the approach taken by FFI should repel new testimonies and Ex-Muslims. It does the opposite.

    I don't think either FFI or CEMB is capable of converting people. They will attract ex-muslims no doubt as they all need somewhere to go for comfort. People who are on the fence have two choices; consult muslims for answers or visit sites like these to see what made them to turn away.


    Not so, it converted me from avid believer to person with doubts to Ex-Muslim. When I read it in 2006 I was an avid defender of Islam and I used to pray-after that I started having doubts (of course I had doubts before but these were the doubts that all Muslims have-minor).

    that's quite interesting. I would've thought that these types of sites would generally make muslims more religious. Guess it doesn't apply to everyone. What are the conversion rates like at FFI?
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #21 - March 03, 2009, 03:35 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on March 03, 2009, 02:00 PM
    No, its because we don't have a Testimonies of Leaving Islam forum, whereas FFI do.

    There's that section in the Council Parent site:
    http://www.ex-muslim.org.uk/indexMembers.html

    Perhaps it should be more prominent?
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #22 - March 03, 2009, 03:36 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on March 03, 2009, 03:33 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on March 03, 2009, 02:46 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on March 03, 2009, 02:44 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on March 03, 2009, 02:09 PM
    But in theory,  in accordance with what Islame said, the approach taken by FFI should repel new testimonies and Ex-Muslims. It does the opposite.

    I don't think either FFI or CEMB is capable of converting people. They will attract ex-muslims no doubt as they all need somewhere to go for comfort. People who are on the fence have two choices; consult muslims for answers or visit sites like these to see what made them to turn away.


    Not so, it converted me from avid believer to person with doubts to Ex-Muslim. When I read it in 2006 I was an avid defender of Islam and I used to pray-after that I started having doubts (of course I had doubts before but these were the doubts that all Muslims have-minor).

    that's quite interesting. I would've thought that these types of sites would generally make muslims more religious. Guess it doesn't apply to everyone. What are the conversion rates like at FFI?


    I don't think anyone keeps count. But there are hundreds of testimonies on the archive and some on the new site. Also, many of the people who do come say similar things (we saw this site and were shocked....). In all fairness, a lot of Muslims do claim it affirms their faith, however, these are the same Muslims who are so affirmed that they then lurk/avidly post on FFI reading articles and debates. I think that sounds more like insecurity rather than affirmation.
    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #23 - March 03, 2009, 03:43 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on March 03, 2009, 03:31 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 03, 2009, 03:19 PM
    My question isn't really about Islam, but more of one based on life experience and how to get your point across.

    Its an interesting point, and difficult to prove as we have no evidence either way.  Correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying you became an apostate because of FFI, and FFI's tone is generally more convincing that the one set here?




    I am indeed saying I became an apostate because of FFI. Technically, all who leave Islam leave because of it's own content of course, but what I mean is that if it wasn't for FFI, I wouldn't have looked further into Islam and found what I did.

    Also I find it more convincing as a lot of people over there have sent in letters as Muslims and then later posted testimonies as ex Muslims. It works.

    My opinion of course, like you said, there is no empirical data either way.


    OK, firstly you are the first person I have come across that has said that they were in effect converted by a forum! Its just that some people (not naming them here) here have said its not possible.

    It is something that interests me and somewhat encouraging, at least it makes me appreciate why you are so defensive of FFI's style - after all they made you see the light. 

    Do you think you would have become an apostate eventually, or was it something there that triggered your thoughts.  Can you divulge a little more about what made you go onto FFI and the arguments that led to your apostacy.
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  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #24 - March 03, 2009, 03:49 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 03, 2009, 03:43 PM
    OK, firstly you are the first person I have come across that has said that they were in effect converted by a forum!

    FFI is a website before it's a forum. The forum is a part of the website. So the articles and stuff could pretty much convert someone.
    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #25 - March 03, 2009, 03:53 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 03, 2009, 03:43 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on March 03, 2009, 03:31 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 03, 2009, 03:19 PM
    My question isn't really about Islam, but more of one based on life experience and how to get your point across.

    Its an interesting point, and difficult to prove as we have no evidence either way.  Correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying you became an apostate because of FFI, and FFI's tone is generally more convincing that the one set here?




    I am indeed saying I became an apostate because of FFI. Technically, all who leave Islam leave because of it's own content of course, but what I mean is that if it wasn't for FFI, I wouldn't have looked further into Islam and found what I did.

    Also I find it more convincing as a lot of people over there have sent in letters as Muslims and then later posted testimonies as ex Muslims. It works.

    My opinion of course, like you said, there is no empirical data either way.


    OK, firstly you are the first person I have come across that has said that they were in effect converted by a forum! Its just that some people (not naming them here) here have said its not possible.

    It is something that interests me and somewhat encouraging, at least it makes me appreciate why you are so defensive of FFI's style - after all they made you see the light. 

    Do you think you would have become an apostate eventually, or was it something there that triggered your thoughts.  Can you divulge a little more about what made you go onto FFI and the arguments that led to your apostacy.



    Well, it is interesting. Do I think I would have left Islam eventually? I don't know. Until then, "controversial events", such as 7/7, 9/11, Madrid bombing, Danish Cartoons etc just made me look again at the "nice" verses of the Quran and the "nice" ahadith. I would then be reassured and not think about the issue.

    However, when I saw a fatwa on Islamonline.net (I used to get a lot of my "modern principles" from Qaradawi and his Mad Mullahs) that mentioned something about FFI, I visited it. At first I was horrified ("Its all lies!"). Then, I decided to send them a letter (If you want to see it PM me, but I won't post a link to it because it has my  real name) and then after that I read some of their articles about fallacies in the Quran. To reaffirm my faith I tried reading articles about the Scientific miracles in the Quran and watched videos about them. These weren't half as convincing as the articles and sources on FFI. I then returned to FFI to try and convince myself that Muslims were winning the debates there, of course I saw that Muslims constantly were hung by their own arguments. After then looking more and more into sources I decided to stop looking because I would find doubts ("O you who believe do not ask questions on things made plain to you...") I "banned" myself from visiting FFI and found the concept of going on that website scary.

    After studying more and more Quran and Sunnah I decided that somehow FFI and the like were wrong. I kept battling my own doubts over the next two years with sources (mainly found on FFI-such as their articles and debates and also their links). I read Ali Sina's rebuttel to Zakir Naik (The worlds greatest showman) and then found a compelling arguement against the "scientific miracles" in the Quran. Furthermore, I read Ali Sina's debate with Ghamidi and Zaheer, and this was the nail in the coffin for my faith as the 100something-page document contained a summary of why Islam is false. After reading this, I realised I was no longer a Muslim.

    Therefore it is thanks to FFI and Ali Sina I left Islam, I am not a blind follower, but these are the facts.
    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #26 - March 03, 2009, 04:06 PM
    Fair enough, judging by what you have written FFI and Sina can do some good.

    Its impossible to know, but I wonder whether if you had found this site first, then if things would have been different.  Would you have denounced Islam sooner, later or not at all. 

    Possibly not?  The library here is not big enough, and I am not sure whether the arguments used here would have incensed & incentivised you enough to find out more. 

    As a Muslim, which posters there, left the greatest impression on you?
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  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #27 - March 03, 2009, 04:10 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 03, 2009, 04:06 PM
    Fair enough, judging by what you have written FFI and Sina can do some good.

    The site of FFI is not that bad. I've read a couple of testimonies myself. When I was a muslim, I briefly looked at some testimonies that portrayed Islam as violent and I thought they were simply misinterpreting the Quran so I ended up ignoring the site.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #28 - March 03, 2009, 04:15 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 03, 2009, 04:06 PM
    Fair enough, judging by what you have written FFI and Sina can do some good.

    Its impossible to know, but I wonder whether if you had found this site first, then if things would have been different.  Would you have denounced Islam sooner, later or not at all. 

    Possibly not?  The library here is not big enough, and I am not sure whether the arguments used here would have incensed & incentivised you enough to find out more. 

    As a Muslim, which posters there, left the greatest impression on you?



    Interesting. I might have left Islam if I found this site. But in my opinion, I might have felt supported by more moderate ideas coming from people like Hassan, and might have found support for my reformist attitude, thus being complacent. The sharp shock provided by FFI was unique and helped me break the brittle belief system. Of course this is just theoritical and I can't test it.

    Well, first poster their was doubtless, as he responded to my letter and I found his posts rational and calm. Other oldies like THHUXLEY, rainbow, Phedippes, the Canucks etc. When I went back, most of these oldies were retired/gone (the result of a dispute I had heard), but I found Haik Monsieurs debates interesting, especially as he single handedly won a lot of them against many differant people and worked tirelessly on articles.

    That's about it really. Most of these people were agnostic/atheist/rational in their outlook, I don't know if this site would have turned me, but to be honest, I am a person who prefers complacency as opposed to radicalism, and would have probably been complacent after seeing a site like this.
    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #29 - March 03, 2009, 05:22 PM
    Perhaps you are right, I dont know. 

    Not sure what  Thhuxley, Rainbow, Phedippes, the Canucks and Haik Monsieurs were like as I have never wanted to reside on FFI, I assume more akin to Baal?

    I suppose different argumentative styles work on people differently.  Perhaps those who are more black & white in their approach are more at home over there, and those who aren't are better here.  If this is true, then it makes even less sense for us to become more like FFI and vice versa.
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