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Theme Changer

 Topic: May Allah Bless Basmalah

 (Read 8655 times)
  • Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #30 - March 08, 2009, 01:13 PM

    You're right about the relative tolerance of the Andalusian caliphate compared to the rest of medieval Europe.  

    ==============

    Yes osmanthus,

    this is only when compared to medieval Europe. Because Muslims did persecute Jews during the time of their Andalus rule especially after the 1st millennium.

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #31 - March 08, 2009, 01:23 PM

    You're right about the relative tolerance of the Andalusian caliphate compared to the rest of medieval Europe.  

    ==============

    Yes osmanthus,

    this is only when compared to medieval Europe. Because Muslims did persecute Jews during the time of their Andalus rule especially after the 1st millennium.

    Oh sure. On the other hand there were several Jews who held very high ranking and responsible positions in that era. Another thing is that later in the piece the original rulers were largely supplanted by those who had been imported from northern Africa as mercenary fighters. These guys were much more hardline and caused quite a bit of destruction. They regarded the Andalusians (Muslim or otherwise) as being decadent and un-Islamic.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #32 - March 08, 2009, 01:31 PM

    @ os,

    Yes I guess, I'm reading some books on that, along with battles of other Islamic empires and I think I'll never finish them, (j/k) but seriously, too many empires, details, and battles.


    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #33 - March 08, 2009, 01:35 PM

    Yeah. Bloody empires. At least some of them were more exciting that the British one. Grin

    The Andalusians, particularly the earlier ones before the north Africans got busy on it, were pretty damned good for their era. This doesn't mean they were perfect by our standards but it does mean they provided a better alternative for Jews than many surrounding cultures, which really is what was most important if you were alive at the time.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #34 - March 08, 2009, 01:39 PM

    Yeah. Bloody empires. At least some of them were more exciting that the British one. Grin

    The Andalusians, particularly the earlier ones before the north Africans got busy on it, were pretty damned good for their era. This doesn't mean they were perfect by our standards but it does mean they provided a better alternative for Jews than many surrounding cultures, which really is what was most important if you were alive at the time.

    ==========

    Agree.  Afro

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #35 - March 08, 2009, 09:19 PM

    Muhammed exterminated an entire Jewish tribe. I agree it was barbaric and wrong, but they were not killed for being Jewish. They were killed for breaking a pact with Muhammad.


    And tell me why they wouldn't be hostile to the new faith & break pacts? They were living in a land where they had previously enjoyed complete equality with the Pre Islamic pagan majority, they had to pay no special taxes & even intermarried with pagans, which is all evident from Islamic sources.

    Heard of Kaab Ibn Al Ashraf, the leader of a Jewish tribe who was murdered on Muhammad's orders? Well, his mother was a Jewish woman, father an Arab pagan, & according to halacha he was a Jew. He was apparently raised Jewish too, for he followed his mother's faith & became Head of his mother's tribe. Will all this be possible in today's Saudi? Will a Jewish woman be allowed to marry a Saudi Muslim man & raise her kids as Jews?

    Now suddenly a new man called Muhammad came on the scene & proclaimed himself the Jews' Promised Messiah, which in itself is annoying, but doesn't deserve a war, but to add insult to injury he also proclaimed an additional tax-called jizya on the Jews should they not accept his messiahship.  finmad

    The Jews could see the complete tolerance they'd enjoyed in Saudi being replaced by partial tolerance. How would today's Muslims in U.K. like it, if say the BNP came to power, forbade Muslims intermarrying non Muslims & gave them the option of converting to Anglicanism or paying a special tax?

    For both the pagans, & to a lesser extent the Jews, Muhammad's arrival on the scene as a self proclaimed Messiah was a calamity.

    Muhammad's Quran gave idolaters only two options- conversion or death & he converted the pagans by smashing their idols & threatening to kill them if they came out of their houses to protect their idols. Even when after his death, ridda(apostasy) wars broke out amongst pagans eager to cast off the noose of Islam, they were ruthlessly suppressed. These ridda wars are evidence that even after all the coercion, Islam hadn't really been accepted by the newly converted, they continued to seethe inwardly & were on the lookout for the first opportunity to rid themselves of the faith.

    For the Jews, it was a deterioration from their previous status as equal citizens to second class citizens. Henceforth, no Jewish woman could easily marry a Saudi man, like Kaab Ibn Al Ashraf's mother had done & raise her children as Jews according to what Jewish Law taught They also had to pay a special tax simply for remaining Jews.

    Defeated people never write their history, for them its a time of darkness-yet even from the history we can glean from Islamic sources- we see how the Meccan idolaters were forcibly proselytized & Jews reduced to eternal subservience by the new faith called Islam. All this was done, not by some misguided followers of Muhammad, like Jesus' followers' had done-but by Muhammad himself.

    P.S. The Arab pagans were tolerant of apostasy too, which is why Khadija's cousin Waraqa Nawfal had converted to Christianity, & lived happily in Saudi. Today any Saudi convert to Christianity would be Flamer according to Muhammad's laws.


    You are not getting my point. I am not defending Islam here and I am not saying that  Islam is tolerant of Jews or other religions. What I am saying is, technically, a Muslim state cannot kill somebody for being a Jew. It has been done but that does not mean that Islam allows it. As a result of this, for most of history, Muslim states have been more tolerant of Jews than the west, and I would much rather have been a Jew in a Muslim state than an idolator.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #36 - March 09, 2009, 06:22 PM

    You are not getting my point. I am not defending Islam here and I am not saying that  Islam is tolerant of Jews or other religions. What I am saying is, technically, a Muslim state cannot kill somebody for being a Jew. It has been done but that does not mean that Islam allows it. As a result of this, for most of history, Muslim states have been more tolerant of Jews than the west, and I would much rather have been a Jew in a Muslim state than an idolator.



    Got your point aliadiere & I agree with it. Muhammad indeed preached more tolerance towards the Jews than Medieval Christians' displayed-although he was far less tolerant of Judaism & Christianity than the Meccan Arab society he was born into.

    As for Muslim antipathy towards Jews being caused due to  Israel , I accept that there was a historical injustice done to the Muslims of Israel, who lost their lands 60 years ago. However, I think the Muslim ummah also needs to be more objective towards all faiths. After all, 60 years ago Pakistan & Bangladesh were also created from British colonial states-which lead to the deaths & displacements of far more people than the creation of Israel did. Just like Israel was created as a Jewish state, Pakistan & Bangladesh were created as Muslim states. The non Muslims who lost their loved ones & their lands in erstwhile Bangladesh adjusted to the loss, moved on & there's been not a single suicide attack or terrorist attack in Pak or Bangladesh by the non Muslims who suffered losses there. Terrorists attacks in Pakistan are regular occurences, but also done by Muslims. In the Mumbai terror attack,Islamist terrorists from Pakistan also went into the only Jewish Centre in the city-the Chabad House & slaughtered 5 Jews living there including a Rabbi & his pregnant wife.

    Much of this Muslim hatred towards Jews is also explicitly a product of their faith & caused by the doctrines of their faith. For Muslims are taught that Jews are tolerable but unequal to them, they can be made to pay the jizya tax, made to feel subservient to Muslims, but they can't claim equalityThus, for the Muslim terrorists from Pakistan, or the larger Ummah-its prefectly allright to steal land from the idolaters, kill those who resist-coz they are actually meant to be slaughtered anyway- & create a separate state in Pakistan.However, its an intolerable outrage if a Non Muslim kuffar like a Jew-who's only given protection as a "protected faith" dares to take any land from any member of the Ummah. Then its perfectly allright for Muslims, like the Pakistani Muslim terrorists to avenge the outrage against Jews in any part of the world-even Jews in Mumbai.

    The cause of increased Jewish Muslim tension certainly owes a great deal to the creation of Israel & its devastating consequences for Palestinian Muslims, but it owes as much, if not more to the Muslim belief, enshrined in the Quran, that they're chosen people & while its allright for them to conquer lands for propagating Islam & suppress other faiths, its a grevious wrong for any other faith to deprive them of any inch of their lands.

    Muslim land is "Dar ul Islam" or House of Islam & Kaffir land is "Dar ul Harb" or House of War. No territory once added to Islam can ever be relinquished, which is a large reason why the Palestinian Muslims couldn't forget & move on, like the non Muslims expelled from Pakistan could easily do. Similarly, no mind, once added to Islam, could be relinquished-which is where Muslim hatred towards apostates spring from.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
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