Mohammad, the Pedophile

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #360 - December 02, 2009, 04:43 AM

Even as a never been Muslim, I find Muhammad the most appalling thing about Islam, & the fact that so many Muslims blindly accept that Muhammad was some perfect example for all mankind.

If I remember correctly, Hassan had said that he'd rejected Islam for two reasons-the man, Muhammad & his message.

His message-Hassan simply couldn't accept that non believers should go to Hell for disbelief.

The man-Hassan found Mo's behavior most un prophetlike.

Two other founders of world religions-Jesus & the Buddha are so, so different & so much better.

New religions & new prophets should always improve upon the morality of what came earlier-reflecting humanity's progress in ethics, otherwise there's little point in starting a new faith, hard to believe that Muhammad came more than half a millennia after Jesus & one millennia after the Buddha.

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #361 - December 02, 2009, 05:24 AM

Quote from: Rashna on December 02, 2009, 04:43 AM
Two other founders of world religions-Jesus & the Buddha are so, so different & so much better.

I was thinking about that too. Compared to the other ethical/religious teachers what did Muhammad really contribute? There is nothing profound in his message at all. Buddha, Jesus, Confusius are all leagues above Muhammad in terms of quality of teachings.

Of course while Jesus was at least a peacable guy and didn't play with kids, he is considerably lower than buddha or confucius. He was the one who pretty much popularized the idea of "hell" for disbelievers. Which is frankly one of the most evil concepts ever dreamt of. Islam really took that evil concept and and juiced the shit out of it.

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #362 - December 02, 2009, 12:59 PM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 02, 2009, 05:24 AM
Of course while Jesus was at least a peacable guy and didn't play with kids, he is considerably lower than buddha or confucius. He was the one who pretty much popularized the idea of "hell" for disbelievers. Which is frankly one of the most evil concepts ever dreamt of. Islam really took that evil concept and and juiced the shit out of it.

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #363 - December 02, 2009, 02:12 PM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 02, 2009, 05:24 AM
I was thinking about that too. Compared to the other ethical/religious teachers what did Muhammad really contribute? There is nothing profound in his message at all. Buddha, Jesus, Confusius are all leagues above Muhammad in terms of quality of teachings.

Of course while Jesus was at least a peacable guy and didn't play with kids, he is considerably lower than buddha or confucius. He was the one who pretty much popularized the idea of "hell" for disbelievers. Which is frankly one of the most evil concepts ever dreamt of. Islam really took that evil concept and and juiced the shit out of it.

Ye Confuscius is the most admirable in many respects because he was not a religious teacher but just a philosopher and a thinker.

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #364 - December 09, 2009, 07:59 AM

Heyjustlooking am I confusing you with somebody else? I always thought you were against the criticism of Islam and Mohamed?
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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #365 - December 09, 2009, 01:23 PM

time on COEM changes most peoples attitudes towards Islam

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #366 - December 10, 2009, 08:46 AM

Sorry I haven?t read through all the posts so not sure if it was mentioned here but since the Islamic Calendar is shorter than the Gregorian one, then Aisha wasn't fully 9 years old? She was more likely 8? Nearly 9?
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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #367 - December 17, 2009, 05:40 PM

Neither did I read the entire thread TBH. So there's a good chance I'm treading the beaten path.

In any case, there is a problem with the category of "paedophile". Objectively, even we believe the account of Mohammed's relationships are without question, it has very specific definitions. He possibly engaged in paedophilic sexual behaviour, but that doesn't make him a paedophile as such.

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #368 - December 18, 2009, 04:28 AM

Did people have sexual relations with women as young as nine back then? Was it that common or accepted? That is the real question.

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #369 - December 18, 2009, 07:13 AM

Yes, and if they did how old were the partners?
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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #370 - December 18, 2009, 02:55 PM

Quote from: panoptic on December 17, 2009, 05:40 PM
Neither did I read the entire thread TBH. So there's a good chance I'm treading the beaten path.

In any case, there is a problem with the category of "paedophile". Objectively, even we believe the account of Mohammed's relationships are without question, it has very specific definitions. He possibly engaged in paedophilic sexual behaviour, but that doesn't make him a paedophile as such.

True Panoptic, engaging in the behavior couple times does not make him a pedo. Persisting in it, prefering the child bride over the 12+ women he had at his disposal. Later indicating he wanted another one before death claimed him, goes above and beyond the 'couple times', doesn't it Panop?

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #371 - December 18, 2009, 03:01 PM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 18, 2009, 04:28 AM
Did people have sexual relations with women as young as nine back then? Was it that common or accepted? That is the real question.

Hello Blackdog, it is not the real question. It does not matter what was the custom of his time. It does not matter if it was normal or not. And it was not normal. Apparently what muhammad did was so cool and novel, that Aisha's dad got called "Abu Bakr - The Father of the Maiden"

Originally Abu Bakr's name was "Abdul Ka'aba ('Slave of Ka'aba')". Today, muslim jurist try to pretend that Abu Bakr means 'Owner of the Camels' and not 'Father of the Maiden'.

Also, as an advice, keep the discussion of Muhammad's pedophilia to an academic level. When talking with muslims, Hassan, me and many others, are of the opinion that pedophilia is a loaded word, as in, it gives them a way to discuss the word instead of discussing muhammad's actions.

Whether you think he is a pedophile or not, should be an academic matter only to be discussed with people interested in what happened. Not worshiping what happened.

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #372 - December 18, 2009, 03:10 PM

Isn't camel Jamal in arabic?

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #373 - December 18, 2009, 03:24 PM

Yeah, and bakr apparentely means young camel.

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #374 - December 18, 2009, 04:33 PM

Baal lak ente habibi

google translate:

Found in dictionary: Arabic > English.

   *
   بكر
   o
   adjective
   +
   virgin
   +
   intact
   +
   maiden
   +
   maidenlike
   o
   verb
   +
   live from hand to mouth
   +
   rise early
   +
   get up
   o
   noun
   +
   first born

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #375 - December 18, 2009, 05:32 PM

Quote from: Baal on December 18, 2009, 03:01 PM
Hello Blackdog, it is not the real question. It does not matter what was the custom of his time. It does not matter if it was normal or not. And it was not normal. Apparently what muhammad did was so cool and novel, that Aisha's dad got called "Abu Bakr - The Father of the Maiden"

Could you explain the "faither of the maiden" bit.. what does that exactly mean/imply?

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #376 - December 18, 2009, 05:43 PM

Quote from: Baal on December 18, 2009, 02:55 PM
True Panoptic, engaging in the behavior couple times does not make him a pedo. Persisting in it, prefering the child bride over the 12+ women he had at his disposal. Later indicating he wanted another one before death claimed him, goes above and beyond the 'couple times', doesn't it Panop?

No, it's more specific than that. Again, the problem is the category of 'paedophile' as it used today by various institutions, including the media.

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #377 - December 18, 2009, 06:26 PM

For me, Big Daddy Mo being a man who engaged in pederasty, as horrible as that is, could almost be overlooked by me, if he wasn't projected as insaan al kamil by Muslims, the most perfect man for eternity, whom every Muslim must emulate, and someone who must never be criticised, upon pain of death.

The other thing is, that Muslims can't have it both ways. They can't say that Islam is immutable and not subject to the principles of relativity ie: that's how things were then, we can excuse it, but acknowledge it was wrong and move on, because that would mean that Mohammad was wrong, that his behaviour in this instance was to be reproached, and that he was being criticised - and that is simply not acceptable to Muslims.

Thus, Mo is actually the achilles heel of Islam, and his sexual desire for a child, and his sexual relationship with a child, along with some other things, is amongst the most stark point of moral dissonance between who Mo was, and what civilised, non murdering, non pederastic society in the modern world knows is wrong.

If you want to project Islam in propagatory, evangelising ways, with Mo as the pinnacle of all that your religion contains, and assert that he is the most perfect, amazing, morally pure man that ever lived, (and if you must agree with that....or else!) - that he is the ideal that all must aspire to -- when the truth about him comes out, the whole edifice of Islam becomes tainted by this. It really does. I mean, it really, really, really does become rotten.

So it is an issue of massive import and relevance, and one that should be spoken about widely.

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #378 - December 18, 2009, 06:29 PM

He isn't accused of having being a pederast, but a paedophile (someone with an overwhelming sexual preference for prepubescent children, in its proper definition).

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #379 - December 18, 2009, 06:38 PM

Quote
He isn't accused of having being a pederast, but a paedophile (someone with an overwhelming sexual preference for prepubescent children, in its proper definition).

This is just semantics. He married and had sex with a girl when he was in his fifties.

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #380 - December 18, 2009, 06:44 PM

The point is the discrepancy and the gap between the respect and admiration and awe demanded for Mo, and the reality. If Muslims who propagate Islam relativised his behaviour it would not matter so much.

But that gap between the elevation of Mo and the reality is what is the achilles heel of Islam in the modern world.

Put simply, only the lowest of the low, a paedophile, would not find Mohammads sexual relations with a 9 year old girl when he was in his fifties to be utterly repulsive.

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #381 - December 18, 2009, 06:49 PM

Quote from: billy on December 18, 2009, 06:38 PM

This is just semantics. He married and had sex with a girl when he was in his fifties.

Which is not pederasty nor necessarily paedophilia. Not that it negates the substantive point of your post.

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #382 - December 18, 2009, 06:49 PM

My apologies - 'pederast' refers only to a man who anally penetrates a boy-child. I thought it was simply an interchangeable word for paedophile.

Mo wasn't a pederast (as far as we know) - who only had an eye for the ~~ladies~~ girl-child.

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #383 - December 18, 2009, 06:52 PM

They're both just epithets, in any case.

The over-emphasis on the term is something which says more to do with our problems addressing child-abuse, IMO.

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #384 - December 18, 2009, 07:08 PM

Quote from: billy on December 18, 2009, 06:49 PM
My apologies - 'pederast' refers only to a man who anally penetrates a boy-child. I thought it was simply an interchangeable word for paedophile.

Mo wasn't a pederast (as far as we know) - who only had an eye for the ~~ladies~~ girl-child.

He could have been an anything-ast as far as we know - you forget that according to some hadith he had a penchant for sucking boys tongues too! And to date I have never seen anything to show that this was an accepted practice at the time..

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #385 - December 18, 2009, 07:18 PM

Quote from: billy on December 18, 2009, 06:26 PM
For me, Big Daddy Mo being a man who engaged in pederasty, as horrible as that is, could almost be overlooked by me, if he wasn't projected as insaan al kamil by Muslims, the most perfect man for eternity, whom every Muslim must emulate, and someone who must never be criticised, upon pain of death.

The other thing is, that Muslims can't have it both ways. They can't say that Islam is immutable and not subject to the principles of relativity ie: that's how things were then, we can excuse it, but acknowledge it was wrong and move on, because that would mean that Mohammad was wrong, that his behaviour in this instance was to be reproached, and that he was being criticised - and that is simply not acceptable to Muslims.

Thus, Mo is actually the achilles heel of Islam, and his sexual desire for a child, and his sexual relationship with a child, along with some other things, is amongst the most stark point of moral dissonance between who Mo was, and what civilised, non murdering, non pederastic society in the modern world knows is wrong.

If you want to project Islam in propagatory, evangelising ways, with Mo as the pinnacle of all that your religion contains, and assert that he is the most perfect, amazing, morally pure man that ever lived, (and if you must agree with that....or else!) - that he is the ideal that all must aspire to -- when the truth about him comes out, the whole edifice of Islam becomes tainted by this. It really does. I mean, it really, really, really does become rotten.

So it is an issue of massive import and relevance, and one that should be spoken about widely.

Great post. I totally agree this point should be hammered across mercilessly to Muslims. It is really one of those choke points where you can really fuck em up intellectually.

The problem is Muslims usually just resort to outright denial and lies, because otherwise they need to either admit a) Mo was wrong and morals are relative b) Its cool to rape a 9 year old girl.

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #386 - December 18, 2009, 07:35 PM

Some Muslims resort to pretending they are a Quranist, or Hadeeth doubters, just to avoid this topic, and any other topic which uses inconvenient Ahadeeth as proof to a subject.

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #387 - December 18, 2009, 11:42 PM

Quote from: billy on December 18, 2009, 06:49 PM
My apologies - 'pederast' refers only to a man who anally penetrates a boy-child.

Adolescent, though.

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #388 - December 19, 2009, 10:29 PM

Quote from: IsLame on December 18, 2009, 07:08 PM
He could have been an anything-ast as far as we know - you forget that according to some hadith he had a penchant for sucking boys tongues too! And to date I have never seen anything to show that this was an accepted practice at the time..

I am so confused, so isn't his a form of homosexual practice. Given my parents' homophobic nature they would freak if they knew this. Mo was a very weird guy to say the least.

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #389 - December 20, 2009, 04:00 AM

Quote from: panoptic on December 18, 2009, 05:43 PM
No, it's more specific than that. Again, the problem is the category of 'paedophile' as it used today by various institutions, including the media.

What is more specific then a preference for kids over adults. Over many times. I also do not care much about how the media portray the word. In fact, if you think the word does not portray him accurately, then let's make a word. Or we can say it like they do in Arabic. See in Arabic, words like pedophilia and necrophilia and bestiality do not exist either.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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