A Question to Ex-Muslims Only

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- skynightblaze
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #120 - March 30, 2009, 07:14 AM

Quote from: BMZ on March 30, 2009, 06:59 AM
Quote from: skynightblaze on March 29, 2009, 04:28 PM
@BMZ

http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=532&start=0

Here is another thread for you started by me. Chose anyone and start the debate .Btw the reason I came here is to show people what a liar you are . For the fourth time I am asking you to provide rebuttal to the misinformation presented by FFI . Also Show me where you debated scholarly .

Read my scholarly replies under my various nicks. You know all the nicks, right?

If I remember correctly, I never took part in the above-mentioned thread. Ahmed Bahgat and Mastablaster have already blasted and thrashed all of you.

I did not take part in that exchange because you FFI guys love intellectual masturbation and I don't. To me, that topic was awfully silly and still is.

What was so difficult in understanding? The problem with all FFI goons is that they really base their silly thoughts on translations without understanding a word of Arabic.

Take your own example. You had once confirmed you do not know Arabic. If you don't know and I explain, how can I then drill it in?

If you wish to discuss Qur'aan and it's verses with me, open a new topic here or at my site. Why are you guys so scared to write there, when I have guaranteed you complete freedom.

Let me give you a test:

وَسِعَ كُرْسِيُّهُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضَ

What does it really mean?

Cheers
BMZ

I have posted here the topic and it is there for all to see who was blasted.Do not expect people to be dumb like you.I already admitted to Zulbrain (your incarnation) that I do not know arabic so there is no point in asking me for a test. Knowing arabic has nothing to do with understanding quran . Your books claims to be for entire mankind and also says that it is easy to understand . IF quran cannot be understood in any language other than arabic then your book lied to us that it is for entire mankind because 95 % people do not understand arabic. Is it difficult for you to understand this? We are not interested to debate you on your site. We will debate you here itself.I will open a thread here.
- Aksel Ankersen
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #121 - March 30, 2009, 07:40 AM

Ayat al-Kursi:

وَسِعَ كُرْسِيُّهُ السَّمَـوَاتِ وَالاٌّرْضَ

"His chair extends over the Heavens and the Earth"

Wasi3a = "extends"

Kursihu = "his chair"

As-Samawati = "the Heavens" (plural)

wa = "and"

al-Ard = "the Earth"

If he wanted to make it difficult, he could at least write a sentence of his own devising in Arabic, rather than a Koranic verse where people can just look it up...?

"It may happen that the enemies of Islam may consider it expedient not to take any action against Islam, if Islam leaves them alone in their geographical boundaries... But Islam cannot agree to this unless they submit to its authority by paying Jizyah"

-Sayyid Qutb, Milestones
- skynightblaze
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #122 - March 30, 2009, 08:12 AM

Quote from: BMZ on March 30, 2009, 07:09 AM
Quote from: skynightblaze on March 30, 2009, 06:27 AM

we will not go to his site where he can manipulate things. Let us debate him on a neutral forum. I want to expose this troll who puts on a mask of innocence just to get attention and thereby fooling people into believing that we are liars and haters. I deliberately came here to expose this trickster here so that people know that he merely rants and has no substance to add .The reality is he cant even debate and he is talking of exposing misinformation provided by FFI.Now that I have asked him for a debate will further prove our point .

Go ahead here. I feel fine and comfortable writing here.

There is only one request and that is you should leave behind the mentality and the FFI culture that breeds strange characters.

Try to be civil and I will explain. The moment you misbehave, thou shall be ignored. Also, do not use foul and insulting language. If you do, I will be extremely harsh, hard and ruthless. Is that clear?

So, open a topic on Qur'aan only and let fellow posters be the judge.

Bring it on!

BMZ

Let me warn you too . I wont attack or resort to insults unless you start it. I will be civil as long as you are. I believe in tit for tat. I will open a thread today itself regarding angels moving around the throne of Allah.
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #123 - March 30, 2009, 08:21 AM

Quote from: skynightblaze on March 30, 2009, 08:12 AM
Quote from: BMZ on March 30, 2009, 07:09 AM
Quote from: skynightblaze on March 30, 2009, 06:27 AM

we will not go to his site where he can manipulate things. Let us debate him on a neutral forum. I want to expose this troll who puts on a mask of innocence just to get attention and thereby fooling people into believing that we are liars and haters. I deliberately came here to expose this trickster here so that people know that he merely rants and has no substance to add .The reality is he cant even debate and he is talking of exposing misinformation provided by FFI.Now that I have asked him for a debate will further prove our point .

Go ahead here. I feel fine and comfortable writing here.

There is only one request and that is you should leave behind the mentality and the FFI culture that breeds strange characters.

Try to be civil and I will explain. The moment you misbehave, thou shall be ignored. Also, do not use foul and insulting language. If you do, I will be extremely harsh, hard and ruthless. Is that clear?

So, open a topic on Qur'aan only and let fellow posters be the judge.

Bring it on!

BMZ

Let me warn you too . I wont attack or resort to insults unless you start it. I will be civil as long as you are. I believe in tit for tat. I will open a thread today itself regarding angels moving around the throne of Allah.

Go ahead but open more topics, so that I could choose one that I find interesting. It the topic is silly, in my view, I reserve the right to ignore such.

I have already told you that I do not entertain topics which lead to intellectual masturbation.

By the way, you have not answered the question in my post #119

BMZ
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #124 - March 30, 2009, 08:23 AM

Ok, before you open the thread how about you settle on what you will debate?

Then to make things fair I can set it up so that only BMZ and his challenger can debate each other without numerous people leaping in and taking it off course.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #125 - March 30, 2009, 08:37 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on March 30, 2009, 08:23 AM
Ok, before you open the thread how about you settle on what you will debate?

Then to make things fair I can set it up so that only BMZ and his challenger can debate each other without numerous people leaping in and taking it off course.

Thank you for your suggestion, BE. I really appreciate that and I would request you to moderate, if you can.

I don't like FFI culture, so some of sort of moderation would be required.

It is a good idea. Please set that up with a separate topic for comments on the same by others.

I have already told the poster that he has to set up a few topics on Qur'aan, so that I can choose the one I see fit.
It is imperative in order to maintain an order on the board.

In the mean time, I will see what topics the poster has in mind. Till then, let him come up with various topics for me to choose from or alternatively, I may suggest one that can cover most.

Thank you, BE for coming in.

Salaams
Baig M Z
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #126 - March 30, 2009, 08:39 AM

No problem, I know exactly what you mean hence my suggestion.

I'm going to give you and skynightblaze access to the one on one forum and set up a comment thread, it will be up to skynightblaze to start a topic within that sub forum so that you and he can debate.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #127 - March 30, 2009, 10:22 AM

Quote from: BMZ
Go ahead but open more topics, so that I could choose one that I find interesting. It the topic is silly, in my view, I reserve the right to ignore such.

You are resorting to logical fallacy even before the debate is starting. I should have the authority to select the topic of my choice for all I need to do is show you one error in quran to prove that your book is a lie. You are on the other hand obliged to refute every single argument that I bring against islam for a simple reason because a book of GOD cannot have a single flaw within itself. So finally accept my proposal of debate on the topics I mentioned or you need to pick up a topic from FFI and propose me to debate. I will think over and let you know.

Quote from: BMZ
have already told you that I do not entertain topics which lead to intellectual masturbation.

By the way, you have not answered the question in my post #119

The question in the post 119 is related to the topic that I wanted to discuss. I will show you how your stupidity here within this short conversation.LEt us see what you wrote:

Quote from: BMZ
Go ahead but open more topics, so that I could choose one that I find interesting. It the topic is silly, in my view, I reserve the right to ignore such.

DO you realize that you have just contradicted yourself??. If my topic is silly in your view then why are you still insisting that I answer your question in the post 119 that speaks about the same topic that I wish to debate?

Now since you believe that my topic is stupid you must be having very strong reasons for your belief.Why are you wasting time instead of refuting me and showing that I am a liar?

BTw cant you read? I have already answered your question in post no 122.Here is my answer to your question.

Quote from: Skynightblaze

Knowing arabic has nothing to do with understanding quran . Your books claims to be for entire mankind and also says that it is easy to understand . IF quran cannot be understood in any language other than arabic then your book lied to us that it is for entire mankind because 95 % people do not understand arabic. Is it difficult for you to understand this?

Hence i do not need to answer your questions regarding arabic. The debate is about quran and not about my arabic language skills. I have 15-20 translations with me hence I dont need to understand arabic to know what quran tells . IF you think that all these translators were idiots then you are supposed to prove here why we should take your translation as authentic and ignore theirs.
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #128 - March 30, 2009, 10:32 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on March 30, 2009, 08:39 AM
No problem, I know exactly what you mean hence my suggestion.

I'm going to give you and skynightblaze access to the one on one forum and set up a comment thread, it will be up to skynightblaze to start a topic within that sub forum so that you and he can debate.

Thank you, BE and also thanks for a separate comment thread.

I will also think of a topic, which could be interesting and can be appreciated by the resident as well as the silent international readers.

We shall start only after all has been agreed upon. I know you know what I mean.

I love using emoticons, not to unnerve people but to show my feelings and emotions. It is good to see so many emoticons/smilies here.

Baig M Z
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #129 - March 30, 2009, 10:42 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on March 30, 2009, 08:39 AM
No problem, I know exactly what you mean hence my suggestion.

I'm going to give you and skynightblaze access to the one on one forum and set up a comment thread, it will be up to skynightblaze to start a topic within that sub forum so that you and he can debate.

Thank you berberElla for opening a seperate thread for comments. We shall start the debate as soon as the topic is decided .

EDITED

Where should I start the thread once the topic is decided?
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #130 - March 30, 2009, 10:49 AM

Quote from: skynightblaze on March 30, 2009, 10:22 AM
Quote from: BMZ
Go ahead but open more topics, so that I could choose one that I find interesting. It the topic is silly, in my view, I reserve the right to ignore such.

You are resorting to logical fallacy even before the debate is starting. I should have the authority to select the topic of my choice for all I need to do is show you one error in quran to prove that your book is a lie. You are on the other hand obliged to refute every single argument that I bring against islam for a simple reason because a book of GOD cannot have a single flaw within itself. So finally accept my proposal of debate on the topics I mentioned or you need to pick up a topic from FFI and propose me to debate. I will think over and let you know.

Quote from: BMZ
have already told you that I do not entertain topics which lead to intellectual masturbation.

By the way, you have not answered the question in my post #119

The question in the post 119 is related to the topic that I wanted to discuss. I will show you how your stupidity here within this short conversation.LEt us see what you wrote:

Quote from: BMZ
Go ahead but open more topics, so that I could choose one that I find interesting. It the topic is silly, in my view, I reserve the right to ignore such.

DO you realize that you have just contradicted yourself??. If my topic is silly in your view then why are you still insisting that I answer your question in the post 119 that speaks about the same topic that I wish to debate?

Now since you believe that my topic is stupid you must be having very strong reasons for your belief.Why are you wasting time instead of refuting me and showing that I am a liar?

BTw cant you read? I have already answered your question in post no 122.Here is my answer to your question.

Quote from: Skynightblaze

Knowing arabic has nothing to do with understanding quran . Your books claims to be for entire mankind and also says that it is easy to understand . IF quran cannot be understood in any language other than arabic then your book lied to us that it is for entire mankind because 95 % people do not understand arabic. Is it difficult for you to understand this?

Hence i do not need to answer your questions regarding arabic. The debate is about quran and not about my arabic language skills. I have 15-20 translations with me hence I dont need to understand arabic to know what quran tells . IF you think that all these translators were idiots then you are supposed to prove here why we should take your translation as authentic and ignore theirs.

You can have a hundred translations but I need none. I will translate and explain as I please. The onus would be on you to get a Muslim Qur'aan literate, mutually acceptable, to come and challenge, if you consider my translation wrong. You will be in no position to challenge mine.

I am prepared to forgo your ignorance of Arabic. No problem.

Translators have done the best they could in their time and we have not rated any translation as the best and an approved one.

Just to let you know that the following translations, in my humble opinion, are poor. So, please do not quote any translated verses from them. If you do, I will re-do them:

1. Hilali & Mohsin Khan

2. Khalifa

3. Free Minds

4. Shakir

5. N J Dawood

6. George Sale

I have not yet begun, so please stop whining and throwing tantrums. We still have to finalize and fine-tune the topic. I will suggest something after my evening prayers.

BMZ
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #131 - March 30, 2009, 10:51 AM

Quote

You can have a hundred translations but I need none. I will translate and explain as I please. The onus would be on you to get a Muslim Qur'aan literate, mutually acceptable, to come and challenge, if you consider my translation wrong. You will be in no position to challenge mine.

Ia m prepared to forgo your ignorance of Arabic. No problem.

Translators have done the best they could in their time and we have not rated any translation as the best and an approved one.

Just to let you know that the following translations, in my humble opinion, are poor. So, please do not quote any translated verse from them. If you do, I will re-do them:

1. Hilali & Mohsin Khan

2. Khalifa

3. Free Minds

4. Shakir

5. N J Dawood

6. George Sale

I have not yet begun, so please stop whining. We still have to finalize and fine-tune the topic. I will suggest something after my evening prayers.

BMZ

Isn't that a bit unfair that you are allowed to translate the Quran while if any Ex-Muslim with a better knowledge of Arabic then you would do it they would be called a liar?

Surely you should be using a recognised one such as Yusuf Ali or Pickthal-otherwise you can twist it to suit your own bitter means.

"I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #132 - March 30, 2009, 10:57 AM

Quote from: FinallyFree on March 30, 2009, 10:51 AM
Quote

You can have a hundred translations but I need none. I will translate and explain as I please. The onus would be on you to get a Muslim Qur'aan literate, mutually acceptable, to come and challenge, if you consider my translation wrong. You will be in no position to challenge mine.

Ia m prepared to forgo your ignorance of Arabic. No problem.

Translators have done the best they could in their time and we have not rated any translation as the best and an approved one.

Just to let you know that the following translations, in my humble opinion, are poor. So, please do not quote any translated verse from them. If you do, I will re-do them:

1. Hilali & Mohsin Khan

2. Khalifa

3. Free Minds

4. Shakir

5. N J Dawood

6. George Sale

I have not yet begun, so please stop whining. We still have to finalize and fine-tune the topic. I will suggest something after my evening prayers.

BMZ

Isn't that a bit unfair that you are allowed to translate the Quran while if any Ex-Muslim with a better knowledge of Arabic then you would do it they would be called a liar?

Surely you should be using a recognised one such as Yusuf Ali or Pickthal-otherwise you can twist it to suit your own bitter means.

Yusuf Ali, Pickthall, Asad, Arberry, T.B. Irving, Sarwar and many others are all right. The others, I excluded, are poor translations and their English irks me.

Even if the poster quotes from them, I will do it my way and then explain. But he should try not to.

BMZ
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #133 - March 30, 2009, 10:59 AM

Quote from: BMZ on March 30, 2009, 10:57 AM
Quote from: FinallyFree on March 30, 2009, 10:51 AM
Quote

You can have a hundred translations but I need none. I will translate and explain as I please. The onus would be on you to get a Muslim Qur'aan literate, mutually acceptable, to come and challenge, if you consider my translation wrong. You will be in no position to challenge mine.

Ia m prepared to forgo your ignorance of Arabic. No problem.

Translators have done the best they could in their time and we have not rated any translation as the best and an approved one.

Just to let you know that the following translations, in my humble opinion, are poor. So, please do not quote any translated verse from them. If you do, I will re-do them:

1. Hilali & Mohsin Khan

2. Khalifa

3. Free Minds

4. Shakir

5. N J Dawood

6. George Sale

I have not yet begun, so please stop whining. We still have to finalize and fine-tune the topic. I will suggest something after my evening prayers.

BMZ

Isn't that a bit unfair that you are allowed to translate the Quran while if any Ex-Muslim with a better knowledge of Arabic then you would do it they would be called a liar?

Surely you should be using a recognised one such as Yusuf Ali or Pickthal-otherwise you can twist it to suit your own bitter means.

Yusuf Ali, Pickthall, Asad, Arberry, T.B. Irving, Sarwar and many others are all right. The others, I excluded, are poor translations and their English irks me.

Even if the poster quotes from them, I will do it my way and then explain. But he should try not to.

Edited to clarify: Khalifa and Free Minds are not acceptable.

BMZ
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #134 - March 30, 2009, 11:07 AM

Quote from: FinallyFree on March 30, 2009, 10:51 AM
Isn't that a bit unfair that you are allowed to translate the Quran while if any Ex-Muslim with a better knowledge of Arabic then you would do it they would be called a liar?

BMZ said he did not have a problem discussing it with him if he knew Arabic, are anyone else for that matter, so not sure from where you inferred that he would go round calling people liars if their translations did not agree with his?
Quote
Surely you should be using a recognised one such as Yusuf Ali or Pickthal-otherwise you can twist it to suit your own bitter means.

Yep, you should agree on an objective translation between you both to create an even playing field.

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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #135 - March 30, 2009, 11:07 AM

Quote from: skynightblaze on March 30, 2009, 10:42 AM

Where should I start the thread once the topic is decided?

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?board=31.0 << In this sub forum.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #136 - March 30, 2009, 12:39 PM

Quote from: BMZ
You can have a hundred translations but I need none. I will translate and explain as I please. The onus would be on you to get a Muslim Qur'aan literate, mutually acceptable, to come and challenge, if you consider my translation wrong. You will be in no position to challenge mine.
I am prepared to forgo your ignorance of Arabic. No problem.
Translators have done the best they could in their time and we have not rated any translation as the best and an approved one.

Just to let you know that the following translations, in my humble opinion, are poor. So, please do not quote any translated verses from them. If you do, I will re-do them:

1. Hilali & Mohsin Khan

2. Khalifa

3. Free Minds

4. Shakir

5. N J Dawood

6. George Sale

I have not yet begun, so please stop whining and throwing tantrums. We still have to finalize and fine-tune the topic. I will suggest something after my evening prayers.

I have already made it clear that I do not understand arabic. For the debate to take place we should make it independent of arabic . The only way to do is you need to accept anyone one english translator or translators as authentic and allow me to quote from him/them. Once I quote from him/them you are not supposed to bring arabic again into picture otherwise the debate would be nonsense as I would keep bringing the translations only to be denied by you.

I will not bring any of the above translators that you mentioned but certainly you must promise me that once a translator has been mutually decided, you would accept whatever his translation is without bringing arabic into picture again.

Secondly how can you decide the topic that we should discuss? You should ideally have no problem in discussing whatever I bring up. IF i am bringing something stupid then its going to be at your own advantage as it would expose me .As you are a believer you must be ready to defend your book on any point that a kafir raises.

You are the defender and I am the accuser . Can a defender decide what the accuser should bring up against him? Have you ever seen such a system?
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #137 - March 30, 2009, 01:47 PM

Quote from: skynightblaze on March 30, 2009, 12:39 PM
I have already made it clear that I do not understand arabic.

Yes, I have noted that.

Quote from: skynightblaze
For the debate to take place we should make it independent of arabic.

No! You do not know but I do! I will use Arabic to clarify and refute your point. You must get a reliable person who knows Arabic. You are going to be the accuser, without knowing Arabic. I am defending and I know English and Arabic.
If you write 'cat' and it is a 'dog' in there, I have to show all the readers that you are wrong. Hence, I will be using both languages.

Quote from: skynightblaze
The only way to do is you need to accept anyone one english translator or translators as authentic and allow me to quote from him/them.

You see you are already having a problem here. There is NO such thing known as an Authentic or Approved Translation of Qur'aan. Perhaps you did not read my posts. Let me make it easy for you now. You can use all translations excluding translations from Free Minds and Khalifa. The others I mentioned are not really good. If you quote from them, I will re-do one for you.

Quote from: skynightblaze
Once I quote from him/them you are not supposed to bring arabic again into picture otherwise the debate would be nonsense as I would keep bringing the translations only to be denied by you.

This is already a nonsense condition. Here you are going to accuse my Holy Scripture, which is in Arabic and you want to limit discussion using only one translation. That is silly.

Quote from: skynightblaze
I will not bring any of the above translators that you mentioned but certainly you must promise me that once a translator has been mutually decided, you would accept whatever his translation is without bringing arabic into picture again.

I have just allowed you. I am not going to agree on one translator. That is a silly request.
Qur'aan is in Arabic. If the translator, for example says, "Solomon slew the necks and legs of the choice stallions", I will have to say that it is a poor and bad translation. I will then tell you it means, "Solomon patted their necks or ran his hands over their necks and legs."

Quote from: skynightblaze
Secondly how can you decide the topic that we should discuss? You should ideally have no problem in discussing whatever I bring up. IF i am bringing something stupid then its going to be at your own advantage as it would expose me .As you are a believer you must be ready to defend your book on any point that a kafir raises.

You are the defender and I am the accuser . Can a defender decide what the accuser should bring up against him? Have you ever seen such a system?

There are a few pre-requisites from my side and they are, that:

1. you will not discuss Science, Geography, Geoeccentricty, Geology, Chemistry, Water Cycles, Arithmetic, Astronomy and Fluid Mechanics, etc., etc., since I do not believe that Qur'aan is a text book on these subjects.

2. you will not discuss and quote any ahaadith, because most of them are junk and stuff. Since Qur'aan stands Supreme, you will only be allowed to talk about Qur'aan and it's verses and try to show silly "contradictions" or silly "errors". I will defend Qur'aan.

3. during this debate or exchange, I might bring up the biblical scripture from the other two religions and some others. You will have to bear with me. This will only be done, if necessary.

4. you should not expect immediate and swift responses as I am busy and so are you. And you should not write anything FFI-style, "Has BMZ run away?" I have a life too.

5. you can carry on with personal attacks but you will not carry out any attack on the person of my dear Prophet. If you want to do that, go to the comment area which BerberElla has created for all others.

Now, since you want to be the accuser, you may accuse, attack and try to show alleged mistakes and errors in Qur'aan.

And since I am going to defend Qur'aan, I suggest you title your Topic as "Verses of Qur'aan Challenged" or "Qur'aan under Scrutiny by skynightblaze", or "skynightblaze tearing apart Qur'aan", etc.

One we have agreed upon, each will confirm acceptance to BerberElla.

Please advise.

BMZ
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #138 - March 30, 2009, 02:40 PM

Quote

3. during this debate or exchange, I might bring up the biblical scripture from the other two religions and some others. You will have to bear with me. This will only be done, if necessary.

5. you can carry on with personal attacks but you will not carry out any attack on the person of my dear Prophet. If you want to do that, go to the comment area which BerberElla has created for all others.

This is bogus, how can you expect him to have to defend other scriptures, he is neither a Christian nor a Jew, plus, your religion should be able to stand on it's own two legs.

Also, how can you expect him to question Islam without questioning the prophet? The two go hand in hand, I think you are trying to levy any genuine criticism against Islam and balancing the debate in your favour.

Another unfair point is your own translating of the Quran, if you are allowed to translate it then so should I be, you should change the condition to allow SNB to get a reliable arabic speaker (Muslim or not) to do the same thing that you are. Because in the end all that will happen is you will try to winge and moan about Yusuf Ali or Pickthal translations when it is something embarrassing. If you want a fair debate you should both agree on the translation, otherwise you are giving yourself an advantage.

"I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #139 - March 30, 2009, 02:49 PM

Quote from: FinallyFree on March 30, 2009, 02:40 PM

This is bogus, how can you expect him to have to defend other scriptures, he is neither a Christian nor a Jew, plus, your religion should be able to stand on it's own two legs.

Agreed, I don't see how bringing in other scriptures is necessary unless one is debating a person who believe in those scriptures.

Quote

Also, how can you expect him to question Islam without questioning the prophet? The two go hand in hand, I think you are trying to levy any genuine criticism against Islam and balancing the debate in your favour.

Yes, BMZ what exactly do you mean by this requirement?

I understand no calling him "child fucker" but calling him a pedophile, would this also be a problem?

Is it just the manner in which the accusations are presented that you are against, or is he not allowed to make any of those accusations?

Quote

Another unfair point is your own translating of the Quran, if you are allowed to translate it then so should I be, you should change the condition to allow SNB to get a reliable arabic speaker (Muslim or not) to do the same thing that you are. Because in the end all that will happen is you will try to winge and moan about Yusuf Ali or Pickthal translations when it is something embarrassing. If you want a fair debate you should both agree on the translation, otherwise you are giving yourself an advantage.

Yes, BMZ select one of those translations that you feel is closest to the one you and ahmed believe in since skynightblaze can not read arabic, and from that debate.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #140 - March 30, 2009, 02:52 PM

@BMZ

I agree with most of your arguments except a few . One is about bringing other scriptures and the other is about arabic translations. I am an atheist so torah ,bible,vedas or any other book mean nothing to me. SO TU QUOQUE is not allowed . Its called a logical fallacy . I dont accept this request of yours.

Secondly to solve the problem of ambiguity of arabic I propose a solution. IF 15 different translators agree upon something then you are not supposed to bring in any translation of your own .You are supposed to accept them as they have translated. One of them can be wrong but not 15 of them. IF this is acceptable to you then only I am ready for a debate otherwise not.
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #141 - March 30, 2009, 03:05 PM

Quote from: FinallyFree on March 30, 2009, 02:40 PM
Quote

3. during this debate or exchange, I might bring up the biblical scripture from the other two religions and some others. You will have to bear with me. This will only be done, if necessary.

5. you can carry on with personal attacks but you will not carry out any attack on the person of my dear Prophet. If you want to do that, go to the comment area which BerberElla has created for all others.

This is bogus, how can you expect him to have to defend other scriptures, he is neither a Christian nor a Jew, plus, your religion should be able to stand on it's own two legs.

Also, how can you expect him to question Islam without questioning the prophet? The two go hand in hand, I think you are trying to levy any genuine criticism against Islam and balancing the debate in your favour.

Another unfair point is your own translating of the Quran, if you are allowed to translate it then so should I be, you should change the condition to allow SNB to get a reliable arabic speaker (Muslim or not) to do the same thing that you are. Because in the end all that will happen is you will try to winge and moan about Yusuf Ali or Pickthal translations when it is something embarrassing. If you want a fair debate you should both agree on the translation, otherwise you are giving yourself an advantage.

I am not expecting him to defend other defenceless scriptures. Yes, he is allowed to have a reliable Arabic speaker whether he is an ex-Muslim or a Christian Arab. If he is wrong, I will point out and show that he is wrong. You are allowed to translate for him. I have not stopped you or anybody. There is nothing embarassing in Arabic, so there should be nothing embarrassing in English either.

Your last sentence is also silly as we are discussing Qur'aan, not a particular translation.

I have always been comfortable at FFI. I will make his life easier. Just let him think he is writing at FFI. You know Arabic, so you are allowed to help him.

Cheers
BMZ
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #142 - March 30, 2009, 03:18 PM

Quote from: skynightblaze on March 30, 2009, 02:52 PM
@BMZ

I agree with most of your arguments except a few . One is about bringing other scriptures and the other is about arabic translations. I am an atheist so torah ,bible,vedas or any other book mean nothing to me. SO TU QUOQUE is not allowed . Its called a logical fallacy . I dont accept this request of yours.

Secondly to solve the problem of ambiguity of arabic I propose a solution. IF 15 different translators agree upon something then you are not supposed to bring in any translation of your own .You are supposed to accept them as they have translated. One of them can be wrong but not 15 of them. IF this is acceptable to you then only I am ready for a debate otherwise not.

There was a reason why I mentioned other scriptures. I should have clarified. It was to stop you from bringing any in. In a debate on Qur'aan, Tu Quoque is not necessary and is not required. This is not a Christian-Muslim debate.

I cannot accept your second request. I will translate, when necessary. If I find the translation bad and poor, I have to do it.
When I translate to defend Qur'aan and explain, you and your FFI hosts have the onus to show and prove, whether I am wrong.

You have been allowed to use all translations, excluding the two I mentioned, which are not reliable. It is up to you now to accept. You want to be the accuser and at the same time, are trying to tie the hands of the defence. This is ridiculous.

BMZ
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #143 - March 30, 2009, 03:32 PM

It should not really be an issue, as there are other arabic speakers on this forum if translations are doctored to win arguments?

I am sure BMZ will agree with the majority of the translations shown, as a Muslim he would be doing a discourtesy to Gods word, and it would be easy to know, prove & win the argument if he was being unscrupulous e.g. if his translation was notably different from 15 other translations, it could be researched by the arabic speakers here (which he has already conceded).

As an Arabic speaker, why would he accept another translation, when the religion made sense to him in Arabic? As English speakers would we accept a retranslation of the bible into modern English, or would we read the original source ourselves?

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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #144 - March 30, 2009, 04:13 PM

Quote from: IsLame on March 30, 2009, 03:32 PM
It should not really be an issue, as there are other arabic speakers on this forum if translations are doctored to win arguments?

I am sure BMZ will agree with the majority of the translations shown, as a Muslim he would be doing a discourtesy to Gods word, and it would be easy to know, prove & win the argument if he was being unscrupulous e.g. if his translation was notably different from 15 other translations, it could be researched by the arabic speakers here (which he has already conceded).

As an Arabic speaker, why would he accept another translation, when the religion made sense to him in Arabic? As English speakers would we accept a retranslation of the bible into modern English, or would we read the original source ourselves?

When we have 15 different translations telling us the same thing is the 16th one required? IT would be required only if all the rest are idiots and were ignorant of the language of arabic. Thats an impossiblity. More ever he may feel that his religion is flawless going against the standard translations but it cannot be the truth. We are debating here for truth and not to see how he can manipulate his own religion to make it look good.

If 15 arabic experts translate it in a way that is against him there is no way he can be right.

Further how can he decide the topic of debate when i am the one who is going to make the accusation? This is a clause that he is putting. IF he thinks his quran is flawless then he should not be bothered of the topic that I am going to raise. HE should be confident enough to answer any damn accusation against quran.
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #145 - March 30, 2009, 04:20 PM

Quote from: skynightblaze on March 30, 2009, 04:13 PM
Further how can he decide the topic of debate when i am the one who is going to make the accusation? This is a clause that he is putting. IF he thinks his quran is flawless then he should not be bothered of the topic that I am going to raise. HE should be confident enough to answer any damn accusation against quran.

Try it and see what he says?
Quote from: skynightblaze on March 30, 2009, 04:13 PM
When we have 15 different translations telling us the same thing is the 16th one required?

If you get to this stage, you've done well and its an open & shut case from that point in.

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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #146 - March 30, 2009, 05:21 PM

Quote from: BMZ
There are a few pre-requisites from my side and they are, that:

1. you will not discuss Science, Geography, Geoeccentricty, Geology, Chemistry, Water Cycles, Arithmetic, Astronomy and Fluid Mechanics, etc., etc., since I do not believe that Qur'aan is a text book on these subjects.

I wonder why. Does Quran contain erroneous information on so many subjects??? Oh my!!! I thought it only erred in scientific facts

But seriously, BMZ, can you please give some examples of the verses in Quran on the subjects you quoted which you would not like to discuss?

Excuse me, I cannot stop laughing. Why are you so shaky about Quran? If it is from God, the creator, it must not contain a single error on any damn subject we can think of. Allah could even talk of string theory in 7th century, and he would still be 100% correct, wouldn't he?

Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #147 - March 30, 2009, 05:26 PM

Quote from: IsLame on March 30, 2009, 03:32 PM
It should not really be an issue, as there are other arabic speakers on this forum if translations are doctored to win arguments?

I am sure BMZ will agree with the majority of the translations shown, as a Muslim he would be doing a discourtesy to Gods word, and it would be easy to know, prove & win the argument if he was being unscrupulous e.g. if his translation was notably different from 15 other translations, it could be researched by the arabic speakers here (which he has already conceded).

As an Arabic speaker, why would he accept another translation, when the religion made sense to him in Arabic? As English speakers would we accept a retranslation of the bible into modern English, or would we read the original source ourselves?

Exactly, Islame

I appreciate the point. Of course, I will agree with most of the translations and I will let the poster know, if there is a mistake or if it is poor translation. But I cannot let him tie me down to only one or two translations.

If I translate wrongly, there are speakers of Arabic here, who will point out straight away that I am wrong. Hasan is here and I am sure there are some others.

English has been evolving. Maulana Muhammad Ali was the first non-Arab (Sub-Continental) to do the translation in the early part of the 20th Century. Yusuf Ali did in 1934. Some did in the fifties.

Many translators have translated a small verse into "Yusuf! Turn away from this!" Turn away from what? What it simply means is "Yusuf! Forget this!"?

For example, if two friends had a problem when one accused another falsely. Then a third common friend can say,"Come on, forget this!" or even "Let bygones be bygones!"

Now, the poster cannot force me to accept that "Yusuf! Turn away from this!" is the correct translation and lead everyone to believe that Qur'aan told Yusuf to turn back into a Kafir.

In the coming future, there will be some who would do even better translations than all.

Thank you and Good Night from Singapore.

BMZ
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #148 - March 30, 2009, 05:30 PM

Quote from: BMZ on March 30, 2009, 05:26 PM
Quote from: IsLame on March 30, 2009, 03:32 PM
It should not really be an issue, as there are other arabic speakers on this forum if translations are doctored to win arguments?

I am sure BMZ will agree with the majority of the translations shown, as a Muslim he would be doing a discourtesy to Gods word, and it would be easy to know, prove & win the argument if he was being unscrupulous e.g. if his translation was notably different from 15 other translations, it could be researched by the arabic speakers here (which he has already conceded).

As an Arabic speaker, why would he accept another translation, when the religion made sense to him in Arabic? As English speakers would we accept a retranslation of the bible into modern English, or would we read the original source ourselves?

Exactly, Islame

I appreciate the point.

If I translate wrongly, there are speakers of Arabic here, who will point out straight away that I am wrong. Hasan is here and I am sure there are some others.

English has been evolving. Maulana Muhammad Ali was the first non-Arab (Sub-Continental) to do the translation in the early part of the 20th Century. Yusuf Ali did in 1934. Some did in the fifties.

Many translators have translated a small verse into "Yusuf! Turn away from this!" Turn away from what? What it simply means is "Yusuf! Forget this!"?

For example, if two friends had a problem when one accused another falsely. Then a third common friend can say,"Come on, forget this!" or even "Let bygones be bygones!"

Now, the poster cannot force me to accept that "Yusuf! Turn away from this!" is the correct translation and lead everyone to believe that Qur'aan told Yusuf to turn back into a Kafir.

In the coming future, there will be some who would do even better translations than all.

Thank you and Good Night from Singapore.

BMZ

If you resort to arabic then I should be allowed to consult arabic speakers and you should accept what the arabic speakers of this forum say. IF thats an agreement I am ready to debate you . One more condition is you are not going to decide the topic of debate. ITs me who would accuse your quran and you have to defend it. I have already given you the link so you should be prepared by now. Tell me if you agree with these conditions. If yes then lets go ahead and inform BerberElla.
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Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
Reply #149 - March 30, 2009, 05:34 PM

Quote from: charlesmartel on March 30, 2009, 05:21 PM
Quote from: BMZ
There are a few pre-requisites from my side and they are, that:

1. you will not discuss Science, Geography, Geoeccentricty, Geology, Chemistry, Water Cycles, Arithmetic, Astronomy and Fluid Mechanics, etc., etc., since I do not believe that Qur'aan is a text book on these subjects.

I wonder why. Does Quran contain erroneous information on so many subjects??? Oh my!!! I thought it only erred in scientific facts

But seriously, BMZ, can you please give some examples of the verses in Quran on the subjects you quoted which you would not like to discuss?

Excuse me, I cannot stop laughing. Why are you so shaky about Quran? If it is from God, the creator, it must not contain a single error on any damn subject we can think of. Allah could even talk of string theory in 7th century, and he would still be 100% correct, wouldn't he?

Glad to see you Charles. Was about to switch off and saw your post. I am not shaky at all. You guys have sent the wrong man. FFI should have deputised Khalil.

There is not a single error. Relax.

Good night from Singapore
BMZ
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