it is not just an example set by one man. It is an entire system in which the woman is an object. And in any system in which a woman is an object, such abuses will occur. Islam paves the way for women to become objects through segregation, through permission of social beatings, through unfair divorce laws, unfair financial laws and unfair legal standing. Introduction of special rules for sex and ownership of slaves. On the whole made worse by segregating the word further into believers and infidels. But islam by no mean, holds the monopoly on offering methods for objectifying its women (and other women in the neighborhood too so it seems).
Peace Baal
Which example do you think the secular world sets for women Baal?
If you think that Islam,makes woman an object,you must know womans situation in western countries?
Cheers Marleya,
What about the situation of the Western woman Marleya. The Western woman is the most educated woman in the world. Now I understand that, you have a need, or more like an imperative, to portray the western woman in a negative light, but, on the planet today, the western woman is not the one with most pressing problems.
Even in muslim countries. Some are more religious than others. Isn't the situation of women in the more religious countries worse, then the less religious ones.
The Quran gave womans some rights they did not have at that time,and in the storys we know from the Prophets time,they had a different life,the womans.They could be what they want to be, teachers, scholars, soldiers, anything.
Perhaps. perhaps the koran did give some rights women did not have. But at what price? What rights did the koran take away? The book is only ~6200 verses, how much rights did it take away and how many did it give them.
Wasn't Khadiga a wealthy woman when muhammad married her?
And what did the koran give the women. That is a question I have been asking here, on FFI, and on several other islamic sites. I have been asking the ex-muslim women who came here. I asked them since they were so close to islam, what rights did they know off, from the koran?
Personally I found Three rights, here on earth.
First The right to not be killed at birth. Technically, in the entire islamic sharia we have at our hands today, it is the only thing objectively new islam introduced to the quraysh people. And even that. Muhammad's grandfather and many rich people in Mecca, were offering to buy the daughters of the Aarabs (desert arabs), instead of letting the girls get killed. But at least, the koran turned it into a universal law in all the arabic land.
A good right. today, secular laws cover this under the laws of murder.
A Second right, was the right of a woman to keep her dowry to herself. A good right. Unfortunately, the right is later smudged off. A man can divorce a woman with a word, and the woman can divorce only through a court, and the koran encourages her, to give back the dowry, in order to gain her freedom.
The Third right, I can not remember it now. Probably I will remember it tomorrow morning when I read this again.
So perhaps you will know. What is it this Third right. Here on Earth. And the Fourth and the Fifth and the Tenth, etc. etc.. ~6200 verses, how can anyone go wrong. Should be an easy feat.
And before you find a verse that mentions "equity", know that the word 'equity' does not exist in the koran. The word used in Arabic is 'maarouf'. It means 'what is known'. What is known, means what is known in the koran, the hadith, the sira, and the local culture. If the local culture is opressive, then too bad.
A writer living in England,have found more than 8000 hadith schoolars of women,in the years after the Prophets time,that vanished from history.They taught men.
You have been had Marleya. You have been had by desperate men, creating crop circles under the cover of the night: "..he found .. 8000 hadith.. that vanished from history.."
Where are those 8000 hadith? We have access to 700,000 hadith. Most of them got chucked away down to less then 40,000 hadith (if i have the number correcly). Where are those 8000 hadith by women?
Sometimes if I goes to the city,with friends to a pub or a bar,I meet sisters that almost dont wear clothes.Some of my african sisters,flaunt everything,when they go out.It does not mean that they,are "easy",but they are objects.
Why do you point to the lowest common denominator from your friends, and claim this is the west. why you only protray your friends as either saints, either whores. Do you like this dichotomy? Do you like it to be employed on you? do you want people either see u as a Saint or see you as a Whore? No in betweens? You want people to judge your daughter as a Saint or as a Whore? Of course you do not. Then why you apply it on your friends?
You and your friends and your daughter are mothers, sisters, daughters, cousins, girlfriends, fiances, teachers, students, doctors, nurses, engineers, writers, journalists. Why do you only tell me about your girldfriends, flaunting? How many days a week or amonth they flaunt? how many hours a day they flaunt? What do they do the rest of their lives?
It is oppressive to the extreme to be slotted either a Saint or a Whore. Because let's face it, most of your life, 99.9% of your life, you will not be a Saint and you will not be a whore. You will be too busy for either.
Enjoy your body Marleya, you will have it for 10-20 more years assuming no accidents la samah allah. The years will pass quickly. And plz, do not flaunt everything out. You do not need to flaunt everything out. You also do not need to cover everything out either. That is too unnatural and will cause you and your children to suffer rickets, the more you move north away from the birthplace of the koran.
As a women,to come to Norway,from Africa,it was weird,to see women hanging on big comercial banners,with only underwear. Girls here,grow up all their life,seeing women potrated like that,being an object for sale. And they are all beatyfull and skinny,with dangerous little food,in their stomachs.Not very healthy role models?
A big hanging woman on a banner is a very beautiful banner. And now we are starting to put more men as the utilitarian body of men is becoming more accepted. But really, to avoid putting a woman on a banner, you have to be made a Saint? get your inheritance cut in half? get your witness in court cut in half? get divorced over sms 'talaq'? get covered up?
Domestic violence in countries that never read bukhari,and his condolence of wifebeating, is as rampant,as in muslim countries.
Not at all. In our countries it is legal and accepted and the cop or the judge will not raise a finger. It does not even register as a crime.
In Usa it is the biggest healtproblem for women,domestic violence.More than 1200 womens in usa,get killed every year,of their intimate partner,thats around 200 women every month,and all over the world,the most dangerous place for a women to be,is in her family.More women get killed by somebody they know,than a stranger.Figures from American Institute on domestic violence.
Yes, numbers do look bad but let's put the numbers in context. America is 360 million ppl. America has one of the worst numbers (the worst?) in the western world. A quarter of murder victims are women, Three quarters are men.
Now here is a page with some stats collected on murder in the US & Canada:
Link to murder statsNow, where are our numbers from back home? What are our numbers? Which of our countries is doing better then the rest? Which one has the lowest rates of rape and incest? We can not tell. Because our countries prefer to live in a perpetual mix of hypocrisy and fantasy. And that is not something I blame islam for. But it is something islam is now covered behind.
I dont defend hadith Islam,but when it comes to being a women,that is difficult many places in the world.And not only in hadith Islam countries, women are objects. :'(
Why do you have this need to believe the koran is actually good for women? Why is such a need important for you? We know that the koran contains more bad things for women than good. Ultimately, you can escape some of the bad stuff in the koran by using hadith, but you do not even want to do that. And what about the koran? It contains ~6200 verses. and many of the verses are wasted on things like 'look at the sun and the moon', 'look at the earth and the mountains', it does not contain enough to form a religion. Yet it contained enough information to subjugate women.
Read my statement you are replying to, and tell me: Which of the conditions i stated against women, are from hadith, and which ones, are from the koran? Don't you think that, for the purpose of this post, I am being a koran only guy?
Topic: More Muslim Pedophiles Arrested in Britain