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Theme Changer

 Topic: 4:34 "Beat them"

 (Read 9787 times)
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  • 4:34 "Beat them"
     OP - March 31, 2009, 10:23 AM

    I'm currently having a discussion with another muslim about this verse, he is insisting it means to tap them lightly with a siwaak. He is quoting this as his source-

    Quote
    ?Ata? said: I said to Ibn ?Abbaas, what is the kind of hitting that is not harsh? He said, Hitting with a siwaak and the like. [A siwaak is a small stick or twig used for cleaning the teeth - Translator]
    {if you want a proper source for these two I believe they come from Tafsir al-Tabari though that?s not translated}


    As far as I'm aware al-Tabari is not considered 100% reliable as it's sources are not properly checked. Also the Quran and hadiths never tell you to use a siwaak, they just tell you to beat her (lightly). The concept of tapping them just seems bizarre and ridiculous to me.

    I would like to hear everyone else's opinions on this verse.
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #1 - March 31, 2009, 10:40 AM

    Sorry, but if tabari is unnacceptable when it comes to god creating blacks for slavery, then it is not acceptable in this case either.

    It is either rejected in it's entirety for the duration of your debate, or you are able to use other things, like the REAL farewell sermon that is alot harsher on women.

     
    It's bullcrap.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #2 - March 31, 2009, 10:48 AM

    I'm currently having a discussion with another muslim about this verse, he is insisting it means to tap them lightly with a siwaak. He is quoting this as his source-

    Quote
    ?Ata? said: I said to Ibn ?Abbaas, what is the kind of hitting that is not harsh? He said, Hitting with a siwaak and the like. [A siwaak is a small stick or twig used for cleaning the teeth - Translator]
    {if you want a proper source for these two I believe they come from Tafsir al-Tabari though that?s not translated}


    As far as I'm aware al-Tabari is not considered 100% reliable as it's sources are not properly checked. Also the Quran and hadiths never tell you to use a siwaak, they just tell you to beat her (lightly).

    I would like to hear everyone else's opinions on this verse.


    First off, if you go by Pickthal's translation (I find it accurate), the word isn't (beat) it's (scourge). We all know what scourge means. Also, the lightly doesn't exist in Arabic-it's only found in some hadith in Tabbarri. Which is ironic that he uses this is a source considering all Muslims on the internet pretend they have never heard of Tabarri when it comes to quoting him on heaven. If I were you, I'd ask him not to use Tabarri because of reliability, if he asks why,  show him what Tabarri says about Heaven.

    Also, you can quote 38:44, which gives an example of a Prophet beating his wife. In this ayah, a prophet (job) is told to beat his wife with a branch! PICKTHAL: And (it was said unto him): Take in thine hand a branch and smite therewith, and break not thine oath. Lo! We found him steadfast, how excellent a slave! Lo! he was ever turning in repentance (to his Lord).

    He even joyfully smites her! How nice, he is a good prophet as well ("How excellant a slave!")

    You can even use that story that was found in Ibn Kathir (from Bukhari). If he wants to use a muffassir you should too:

    Here is a Hadith from Bukhari[8], vol. 7, # 715, that details Islamic wife beating:

    "Narrated Ikrima: 'Rifaa divorced his wife whereupon Abdur-Rahman married her. Aisha said that the lady came wearing a green veil and complained to her (Aisha) and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating. It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's messenger came, Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes! When Abdur-Rahman heard that his wife had gone to the prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him, but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment. Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's messenger! She has told a lie. I am very strong and can satisfy her, but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifaa." Allah's messenger said to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifaa unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." The prophet saw two boys with Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that Abdur-Rahman said, "Yes." The prophet said, "You claim what you claim (that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow.""

    Here are some good observations about wife beating based on this hadith (I found it on the article I found the Hadith ref)

    Quote

    Let's note several items from this Hadith.

    1) A woman was beaten by her husband because of marriage discord. The women did not commit any illegal sexual act. She was beaten and bruised because her husband said she was "disobedient" and he thought she wanted to go back to her former husband.

    2) Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!

    The woman was badly bruised. Her skin was green. Aisha acknowledged that the Muslim women were suffering (from being beaten) more than the non-Muslim women. Muslims today proclaim that Islam gave women rights but Aisha, the "mother of the believers" said otherwise! She said that the Pagan women were treated better!

    3) Muhammad did not rebuke the man for beating his wife. In fact, he reproached the women for saying Rahman was impotent. Even though she was hurt Muhammad accepted her bruises and beating because to Muhammad it was not abuse. In Muhammad?s eyes she deserved the beating.

     





    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #3 - March 31, 2009, 12:22 PM

    I would like to hear everyone else's opinions on this verse.


    Well Peruvian, I found only one Bukhari hadith specifying some kind of restriction on the type of wife beating. Here's the Hadith:

    Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 7, #132
    "Narrated Zam'a, "The prophet said, "None of you should flog his wife as he flogs a slave and then have sexual intercourse with her in the last part of the day."

    But this hadith does not speak of any light tap, it only says that a man should flog his wife less harshly than his slave. Oorr, if we were to interpret it literally, we could even say that on the day man flogs his wife, he should refrain from intercourse & postpone any intercourse to the next day!  rofl

    I agree that the very idea of a man being allowed to beat his wife is preposterous!  finmad And what good will hitting with siwak serve? Is that Allah's idea of some kinky foreplay?  Tongue

    Seriously  Yep_True.

     


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #4 - March 31, 2009, 12:34 PM

    First off, if you go by Pickthal's translation (I find it accurate), the word isn't (beat) it's (scourge). We all know what scourge means. Also, the lightly doesn't exist in Arabic-it's only found in some hadith in Tabbarri. Which is ironic that he uses this is a source considering all Muslims on the internet pretend they have never heard of Tabarri when it comes to quoting him on heaven. If I were you, I'd ask him not to use Tabarri because of reliability, if he asks why,  show him what Tabarri says about Heaven.


    Out of curiosity: what does he say about heaven?

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #5 - March 31, 2009, 12:43 PM

    Sahih Muslim is considered far more reliable than Tabari, it is on par with Sahih Bukhari regarding authenticity & in Sahih Muslim, Muhammad is reported to have struck his child bride Ayesha on the chest. Ayesha recollects, "He struck me on the chest which hurt me." Book 004 Number 2127http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/004.smt.html#004.2127

    And he certainly didn't use a siwak! Well, when in a Muslim hadith Prophet Muhammad is shown hitting his wife with his bare hands- we can surely overlook any Tabari hadiths!  Roll Eyes

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #6 - March 31, 2009, 12:50 PM

    First off, if you go by Pickthal's translation (I find it accurate), the word isn't (beat) it's (scourge). We all know what scourge means. Also, the lightly doesn't exist in Arabic-it's only found in some hadith in Tabbarri. Which is ironic that he uses this is a source considering all Muslims on the internet pretend they have never heard of Tabarri when it comes to quoting him on heaven. If I were you, I'd ask him not to use Tabarri because of reliability, if he asks why,  show him what Tabarri says about Heaven.


    Out of curiosity: what does he say about heaven?


    He says that there will be virgins with see through skin and 1 mile wide butts. He also mentions that a man will have sex 100 times a day or something. It's all contained in a Tabari thread here, I can't be arsed to read and translate for you right now so either look for the thread on tabarri or I will post the links later.

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #7 - March 31, 2009, 12:56 PM

    First off, if you go by Pickthal's translation (I find it accurate), the word isn't (beat) it's (scourge). We all know what scourge means. Also, the lightly doesn't exist in Arabic-it's only found in some hadith in Tabbarri. Which is ironic that he uses this is a source considering all Muslims on the internet pretend they have never heard of Tabarri when it comes to quoting him on heaven. If I were you, I'd ask him not to use Tabarri because of reliability, if he asks why,  show him what Tabarri says about Heaven.


    Out of curiosity: what does he say about heaven?

    I presume a blunder about cosmology.

    I don't have access to Tabari's work, but I found this quote. Heaven is solid and the seven Earths (mentioned in Sura at-Talaq verse 12) are flat discs.

    Quote
    According to Muhammad b. Sahl b. 'Askar-Isma'il b. 'Abd al-Karim-Wahb, mentioning some of his majesty (as being described as follows): The heavens and the earth and the oceans are in the haykal, and the haykal I sin the Footstool. God's feet are upon the Footstool. He carries the Footstool. It became like a sandal on His feet. When Wahb was asked: What is the haykal? He replied: Something on the heavens' extremities that surrounds the earth and the oceans like ropes that are used to fasten a tent. And when Wahb was asked how earths are (constituted), he replied: They are seven earths that are flat and islands. Between each two earths, there is an ocean. All that is surrounded by the (surrounding) ocean, and the haykal is behind the ocean.

    History of Al-Tabari-General Introduction and From the Creation to the Flood, Vol. 1, pp. 207-208


    "It may happen that the enemies of Islam may consider it expedient not to take any action against Islam, if Islam leaves them alone in their geographical boundaries... But Islam cannot agree to this unless they submit to its authority by paying Jizyah"

    -Sayyid Qutb, Milestones
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #8 - March 31, 2009, 12:58 PM

    He says that there will be virgins with see through skin and 1 mile wide butts. He also mentions that a man will have sex 100 times a day or something. It's all contained in a Tabari thread here, I can't be arsed to read and translate for you right now so either look for the thread on tabarri or I will post the links later.

    That too, it's such a creepy thought... Like jellyfish or something.

    "It may happen that the enemies of Islam may consider it expedient not to take any action against Islam, if Islam leaves them alone in their geographical boundaries... But Islam cannot agree to this unless they submit to its authority by paying Jizyah"

    -Sayyid Qutb, Milestones
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #9 - March 31, 2009, 12:59 PM

    Here's the Hadith he posts about Heaven Tlaloc. Enjoy

    Quote

     Quote 

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I had to read arabic (yuk) thanks to you. But I did it because I like your comments and your stories are cool. 

    My mistake Peruvian Skies, I said it was found in the tafsir, but it was in Musnad Ahmad. The tafsir contains other juicy bits like when you have sex with houris god will make them virgins again and you can have sex with about 100 a day (thanks to super human strength).

    But here is the hadith:

    1) Musnad Ahmed Hadith #10511:
    "The Messenger of Allah may Allah bless him said that the lowest status of the person in Paradise has seven degrees and he is in the sixth one and above him is the seventh, and he has 300 servants, and every day 300 golden food trays served for him, in each tray a food color other than the other one and its delicious from its beginning till its end , and he says O Lord, if you authorize me to feed and give drinks to the people of Paradise it will not reduce from my food anything, and he has of the wives 72 Hours(Virgins) other than his earthy wives, and each Hour(Virgin) has a seat (place) of one earth mile."

    مسند أحمد
    قال رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏إن أدنى أهل الجنة منزلة إن له لسبع درجات وهو على السادسة وفوقه السابعة وإن له لثلاث مائة خادم ‏ ‏ويغدى عليه ويراح كل يوم ثلاث مائة صحفة ‏ ‏ولا أعلمه إلا قال ‏ ‏من ذهب في كل صحفة لون ليس في الأخرى وإنه ليلذ أوله كما يلذ آخره وإنه ليقول يا رب لو أذنت لي لأطعمت أهل الجنة وسقيتهم لم ينقص مما عندي شيء وإن له من الحور العين لاثنين وسبعين زوجة سوى أزواجه من الدنيا وإن الواحدة منهن ليأخذ مقعدها قدر ميل من الأرض ‏


    Musnad Ahmad is quite well recognised but not all Muslims recognise his collection. Anyway you get the picture....



    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #10 - March 31, 2009, 05:37 PM

    Oh, lol, that's enlightening ^_^

    Thanks

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #11 - March 31, 2009, 07:48 PM

    Here are some ahadith from the collection of Abu Dawud regarding wife-beating:


    Abu Dawud
    Book 11, Number 2142:
    Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab:

    The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.


    Abu Dawud
    Book 11, Number 2141:
    Narrated Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab:

    Iyas ibn Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) as saying: Do not beat Allah's handmaidens, but when Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them. Then many women came round the family of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) complaining against their husbands. So the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Many women have gone round Muhammad's family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you.



    .
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #12 - April 01, 2009, 09:43 AM

    I'm currently having a discussion with another muslim about this verse, he is insisting it means to tap them lightly with a siwaak. He is quoting this as his source-

    Quote
    ?Ata? said: I said to Ibn ?Abbaas, what is the kind of hitting that is not harsh? He said, Hitting with a siwaak and the like. [A siwaak is a small stick or twig used for cleaning the teeth - Translator]
    {if you want a proper source for these two I believe they come from Tafsir al-Tabari though that?s not translated}


    As far as I'm aware al-Tabari is not considered 100% reliable as it's sources are not properly checked. Also the Quran and hadiths never tell you to use a siwaak, they just tell you to beat her (lightly).

    I would like to hear everyone else's opinions on this verse.


    First off, if you go by Pickthal's translation (I find it accurate), the word isn't (beat) it's (scourge). We all know what scourge means. Also, the lightly doesn't exist in Arabic-it's only found in some hadith in Tabbarri. Which is ironic that he uses this is a source considering all Muslims on the internet pretend they have never heard of Tabarri when it comes to quoting him on heaven. If I were you, I'd ask him not to use Tabarri because of reliability, if he asks why,  show him what Tabarri says about Heaven.

    Also, you can quote 38:44, which gives an example of a Prophet beating his wife. In this ayah, a prophet (job) is told to beat his wife with a branch! PICKTHAL: And (it was said unto him): Take in thine hand a branch and smite therewith, and break not thine oath. Lo! We found him steadfast, how excellent a slave! Lo! he was ever turning in repentance (to his Lord).

    He even joyfully smites her! How nice, he is a good prophet as well ("How excellant a slave!")

    You can even use that story that was found in Ibn Kathir (from Bukhari). If he wants to use a muffassir you should too:

    Here is a Hadith from Bukhari[8], vol. 7, # 715, that details Islamic wife beating:

    "Narrated Ikrima: 'Rifaa divorced his wife whereupon Abdur-Rahman married her. Aisha said that the lady came wearing a green veil and complained to her (Aisha) and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating. It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's messenger came, Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes! When Abdur-Rahman heard that his wife had gone to the prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him, but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment. Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's messenger! She has told a lie. I am very strong and can satisfy her, but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifaa." Allah's messenger said to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifaa unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." The prophet saw two boys with Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that Abdur-Rahman said, "Yes." The prophet said, "You claim what you claim (that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow.""

    The first point is invalid, this tasfir explains it -
    http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=38&verse=41&to=64

    As for that hadith, all the other hadiths that talk about this story do not mention the beating. For this reason it is regarded as unauthentic.

    Sahih Muslim is considered far more reliable than Tabari, it is on par with Sahih Bukhari regarding authenticity & in Sahih Muslim, Muhammad is reported to have struck his child bride Ayesha on the chest. Ayesha recollects, "He struck me on the chest which hurt me." Book 004 Number 2127http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/004.smt.html#004.2127

    And he certainly didn't use a siwak! Well, when in a Muslim hadith Prophet Muhammad is shown hitting his wife with his bare hands- we can surely overlook any Tabari hadiths!  Roll Eyes

    Apparently that was badly translated and it actually means he 'pushed' her... Roll Eyes


    Here are some ahadith from the collection of Abu Dawud regarding wife-beating:


    Abu Dawud
    Book 11, Number 2142:
    Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab:

    The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.


    Abu Dawud
    Book 11, Number 2141:
    Narrated Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab:

    Iyas ibn Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) as saying: Do not beat Allah's handmaidens, but when Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them. Then many women came round the family of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) complaining against their husbands. So the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Many women have gone round Muhammad's family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you.


    I quoted those. Apparently the first only counts if the man has not transgressed his boundaries (ie. the beating was light). Although this still allows you to get away with it is she is (lightly) beaten when she did not deserve it, how are you supposed to find out if you cannot ask the man?

    As for the second hadith- They are not the best among you is talking about the men, though I mentioned that I feel this is very hypocritical. Mo allowed the beating in the first place! It's his own bloody fault!
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #13 - April 01, 2009, 09:53 AM


    I quoted those. Apparently the first only counts if the man has not transgressed his boundaries (ie. the beating was light). Although this still allows you to get away with it is she is (lightly) beaten when she did not deserve it, how are you supposed to find out if you cannot ask the man?

    As for the second hadith- They are not the best among you is talking about the men, though I mentioned that I feel this is very hypocritical. Mo allowed the beating in the first place! It's his own bloody fault!


    How can a light beating leave so many bruises that even Aisha was upset enough to get involved?

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #14 - April 01, 2009, 09:58 AM


    I quoted those. Apparently the first only counts if the man has not transgressed his boundaries (ie. the beating was light). Although this still allows you to get away with it is she is (lightly) beaten when she did not deserve it, how are you supposed to find out if you cannot ask the man?

    As for the second hadith- They are not the best among you is talking about the men, though I mentioned that I feel this is very hypocritical. Mo allowed the beating in the first place! It's his own bloody fault!


    How can a light beating leave so many bruises that even Aisha was upset enough to get involved?

    As I mentioned earlier, they don't consider that hadith to be authentic. There are many hadiths repeating that story but none of the others mention the beating.
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #15 - April 01, 2009, 10:01 AM

    Hey, for me if something appears in sahih bukhari, then it is sahih by the terms of authenticity that they use.

    I don't waste my time debating muslims who play that acceptance game.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #16 - April 01, 2009, 10:01 AM

    Not only that but this person is resorting to using tabari, yet dismissing bukhari, why waste your time?

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #17 - April 01, 2009, 10:03 AM

    I know, it's quite annoying debating with muslims. Though they might have a point on this one, I haven't made my mind up on it yet.
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #18 - April 01, 2009, 10:04 AM

    I know, it's quite annoying debating with muslims. Though they might have a point on this one, I haven't made my mind up on it yet.


    I don't think they do have a point, they have a wish, the facts are against them.   Wink


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #19 - April 01, 2009, 10:05 AM

    Not only that but this person is resorting to using tabari, yet dismissing bukhari, why waste your time?

    I didn't start the debate, I'm just joining in as I'm sick of the crap being posted around in that forum.
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #20 - April 01, 2009, 10:09 AM

    Not only that but this person is resorting to using tabari, yet dismissing bukhari, why waste your time?

    I didn't start the debate, I'm just joining in as I'm sick of the crap being posted around in that forum.


    Yeah, I know, it does get frustrating, but after more than 3 years I've just given up trying to debate with people who change the rules to suit them.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #21 - April 01, 2009, 11:24 AM

    I know, it's quite annoying debating with muslims. Though they might have a point on this one, I haven't made my mind up on it yet.


    How can they have a point on this Peruvian? The Quran simply speaks of "beat" every translator has translated that verse as "beat" for more than a millennia until recently, when Yusuf Ali added "lightly" clearly embarrased by the recommendation to beat. The Bukhari hadiths, Abu Dawud's Sunan all recommend beating & a Sahih Muslim Hadiths shows of Prophet Muhammad striking Ayesha with his bare hands, certainly not with a siwak!

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #22 - April 01, 2009, 11:50 AM

    Technically that hadith only proves that Mhmd hit Aisha in the chest, for secretly following him around at night. I don't think it proves that he applied 4:34 on her. I mean the hadith clearly says that the Prophet and Aisha were lying in a bed together.

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #23 - April 01, 2009, 12:09 PM

    I know, it's quite annoying debating with muslims. Though they might have a point on this one, I haven't made my mind up on it yet.


    How can they have a point on this Peruvian? The Quran simply speaks of "beat" every translator has translated that verse as "beat" for more than a millennia until recently, when Yusuf Ali added "lightly" clearly embarrased by the recommendation to beat. The Bukhari hadiths, Abu Dawud's Sunan all recommend beating & a Sahih Muslim Hadiths shows of Prophet Muhammad striking Ayesha with his bare hands, certainly not with a siwak!

    They have a point because the beating was only mentioned in the hadith narrated by Ikrima, all the other hadiths mentioning this story narrated by Aisha do not mention the beating. Therefore the beating is questionable.

    Technically that hadith only proves that Mhmd hit Aisha in the chest, for secretly following him around at night. I don't think it proves that he applied 4:34 on her. I mean the hadith clearly says that the Prophet and Aisha were lying in a bed together.

    Another translation of that is 'push' rather than 'strike' however I think muslims are pushing their luck with this translation, Aisha said it caused her pain.
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #24 - April 01, 2009, 12:29 PM

    In any case, I think it just has a symbolic meaning, like tapping your wife over the head with a rolled up news paper, to set some decline. There are no steps to it, you can just do it often Muslims say you must first talk then not sleep with her and lastly beat her. Moreover, there is only one recorded historical account of Mohammed hitting his wife and that is when he stuck Aisha in the chest, I don't think beating women was a common practice or even part of early Muslim culture I think predominately if was frowned upon to beat your wife as there are few hadiths which are attributed to Mohammed which suggest a man should honour his wife.

  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #25 - April 01, 2009, 12:39 PM

    In any case, I think it just has a symbolic meaning, like tapping your wife over the head with a rolled up news paper, to set some decline. There are no steps to it, you can just do it often Muslims say you must first talk then not sleep with her and lastly beat her. Moreover, there is only one recorded historical account of Mohammed hitting his wife and that is when he stuck Aisha in the chest, I don't think beating women was a common practice or even part of early Muslim culture I think predominately if was frowned upon to beat your wife as there are few hadiths which are attributed to Mohammed which suggest a man should honour his wife.

    Tthe women have obligations in a marriage, she has to obey her husband and if she does not then this is when beating is allowed. If the women fulfils her duties then those hadiths which recommend honouring her are applied. It's like a punishment for a crime.

    I don't agree with the symbolic meaning crap however.
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #26 - April 01, 2009, 12:50 PM

    In any case, I think it just has a symbolic meaning, like tapping your wife over the head with a rolled up news paper, to set some decline. There are no steps to it, you can just do it often Muslims say you must first talk then not sleep with her and lastly beat her. Moreover, there is only one recorded historical account of Mohammed hitting his wife and that is when he stuck Aisha in the chest, I don't think beating women was a common practice or even part of early Muslim culture I think predominately if was frowned upon to beat your wife as there are few hadiths which are attributed to Mohammed which suggest a man should honour his wife.

    Tthe women have obligations in a marriage, she has to obey her husband and if she does not then this is when beating is allowed. If the women fulfils her duties then those hadiths which recommend honouring her are applied. It's like a punishment for a crime.

    I don't agree with the symbolic meaning crap however.


    In my opinion it was (and we have to be objective) beating women was not part of early Islamic culture, I think the degeneration of the rights of women came via the hadith, in fact during early Islam Muslim women enjoyed a great amount of freedom compared to women of the other societies of the time. None the less, that verse is repugnant.

    Yes, currently Muslim women are supposed to obey the husband if a woman does not have a legitimate reason to refuse sex to the husband then the "angels curse her until the morning" and of a Muslim man wants sex from his wife she should come to him "even if she is at the stove" me personally I'll rather bang her in the kitchen and spread all of that food on her, and lick it off her.
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #27 - April 01, 2009, 01:04 PM

    Sorry, but if tabari is unnacceptable when it comes to god creating blacks for slavery, then it is not acceptable in this case either.


    Don't you know the rule yet, Berbs?

    It works like this.

    Tabari, Ibn Ishaq etc... are to be rejected if one is quoting nasty bits.

    They are accepted when quoting nice bits.

    Wink
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #28 - April 01, 2009, 01:07 PM

    I'm currently having a discussion with another muslim about this verse, he is insisting it means to tap them lightly with a siwaak. He is quoting this as his source-

    Quote
    ?Ata? said: I said to Ibn ?Abbaas, what is the kind of hitting that is not harsh? He said, Hitting with a siwaak and the like. [A siwaak is a small stick or twig used for cleaning the teeth - Translator]
    {if you want a proper source for these two I believe they come from Tafsir al-Tabari though that?s not translated}


    As far as I'm aware al-Tabari is not considered 100% reliable as it's sources are not properly checked. Also the Quran and hadiths never tell you to use a siwaak, they just tell you to beat her (lightly). The concept of tapping them just seems bizarre and ridiculous to me.

    I would like to hear everyone else's opinions on this verse.


    Tapping them is bizarre and ridiculous!

    The Qur'an quite clearly allows a man to hit his wife - end of story.

    But good luck getting that through to modern Muslims.

    I concentrated on the absurdity of tapping in my video coz I know most of my viewers would reject the hitting bit - most Muslims are in denial of the truth of their religion.

    If they weren't they couldn't maintain their faith.
  • Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
     Reply #29 - April 01, 2009, 01:36 PM

    In my opinion it was (and we have to be objective) beating women was not part of early Islamic culture, I think the degeneration of the rights of women came via the hadith, in fact during early Islam Muslim women enjoyed a great amount of freedom compared to women of the other societies of the time. None the less, that verse is repugnant.


    Apparently women were not as badly treated outside the ummah as is plainly explained by Aish herself:

    In Sahih Bukhari 72:715 Aisha says, I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women.

    This is a very telling, candid statement. Obviously outside of the believing people, women did not suffer as they did within the Muslim community and Aisha noted that fact for posterity. It was Muhammad who ordered them to be veiled, to be beaten, to be obedient to their men-folk and to be locked up within their houses. Women prior to Islam possessed greater independence, owned businesses as did Muhammad's first wife; they were tribal leaders and even queens.

    This reality is also confirmed in a hadith which has Umar speaking to Muhammad at the time he, Muhammad, separated from his wives after being caught in bed with a slave girl. SB 43:648 Umar said "We, the people of Quraish, used to have authority over women, but when we came to live with the Ansar {in Medina}, we noticed that the Ansari women had the upper hand over their men, so our women started acquiring the habits of the Ansari women. Once I shouted at my wife and I disliked that she should answer me back.

    This hadith is noteworthy as we learn that at that time, outside the Muslim community and Quraish tradition, women were liberated and had a certain level of dominance even over their men. However because of the misogynistic ideology, women's role in all societies conquered by Islam has been one of subjugation.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
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