Time for Muslims to stop reading the Qur'an

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- BMZ
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Re: Time for Muslims to stop reading the Qur'an
Reply #90 - April 15, 2009, 02:29 PM

Quote from: IsLame on April 15, 2009, 12:16 PM
Quote from: skynightblaze on April 15, 2009, 11:47 AM
His next flaw is why ask for her daddy and others when the person whom we are talking about is herself narrating her age? Who knows Aisha's age better than her?
There is no need to take into consideration the testimony of others.

I think what he is getting at is he is a Muslim, so he wont accept Aisha's individual female testimony.

Hello, Islame

No, that is not the reason. Many polemicists, including Ali Sina and his cahoots at Faithfreedom International (FFI) only quote hadith from Ibne Hisham and in all dishonesty, they try to show as if nothing else is available. This is deplorable.

There are quite a few other ahaadith available which nullify that hadith and it can be rejected flatly. That is why I was pushing the posters to show other ahaadith. There are none from the Prophet himself, nothing from her father, mother or other companions at all because all of them never did any back-biting. If her age was of any concern, there would have been ahaadith from many sources, not just by the bloody fool Hisham.

I do not have any references with me but hadith experts of FFI can dig them out, if they want. I do not read hadith collections. I gave up reading ahaadith seventeen years ago, when I found that there was a lot of junk and stuff in there.

However, I will try to write off my memory:

Muslims are supposed to follow the Sunnah of The Prophet. Right? If the Prophet had married Ayesha in the 6-9 age range, that would have become a Sunnah, legal for all Muslims and they would have followed it gladly.

Even ex-Muslims can verify along with the Muslims that their mothers were not married in that range. There is no record in Islamic history that little girls 6-9 were given to older men in marriage. Why couldn't they be given to 14 year old boys?

According to a hadith, Ayesha was present in the battles at Badar and Uhud. All, including the polemicists agree that the Prophet did not allow anyone under fourteen to be present. Many were sent back home but she along with other women was allowed to stay for attending the injured and providing water. It clearly shows that Ayesha was above fourteen. And note that at that time she was not married to the Prophet yet. Polemicists, including Ali Sina his FFI goons never bring this up.

Surely, Prophet did not allow a 4-5 years old little girl to be present in both the battles.

Hisham was not the only fool who came up with a misreport. There was another who said somewhere she was twelve and in another report, he said she was about eighteen. I can't remember his name.

I believe for any serious reader this should suffice. Thanks for the comment.

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Re: Time for Muslims to stop reading the Qur'an
Reply #91 - April 15, 2009, 02:44 PM

Quote from: BMZ on April 15, 2009, 02:29 PM
I believe for any serious reader this should suffice.

I am a serious reader, and it does not suffice. The only argument you have is an inference i.e. she went to battle, against the actual authenticated hadith telling you her age?

At best the playing with dolls may counteract the battle evidence, however you still have given nothing to prove the
authentic hadith is wrong.

Stop playing us for fools, it sounds like you just want to believe in your fairytale come what may. Then do so, but dont expect anyone here to agree that its true.

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Re: Time for Muslims to stop reading the Qur'an
Reply #92 - April 15, 2009, 03:25 PM

Quote from: IsLame on April 15, 2009, 02:44 PM
Quote from: BMZ on April 15, 2009, 02:29 PM
I believe for any serious reader this should suffice.

I am a serious reader, and it does not suffice. The only argument you have is an inference i.e. she went to battle, against the actual authenticated hadith telling you her age?

At best the playing with dolls may counteract the battle evidence, however you still have given nothing to prove the
authentic hadith is wrong.

Stop playing us for fools, it sounds like you just want to believe in your fairytale come what may. Then do so, but dont expect anyone here to agree that its true.

Your answer shows that you are not. My mistake for assuming that.
- skynightblaze
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Re: Time for Muslims to stop reading the Qur'an
Reply #93 - April 15, 2009, 04:04 PM

Quote

According to a hadith, Ayesha was present in the battles at Badar and Uhud. All, including the polemicists agree that the Prophet did not allow anyone under fourteen to be present. Many were sent back home but she along with other women was allowed to stay for attending the injured and providing water. It clearly shows that Ayesha was above fourteen. And note that at that time she was not married to the Prophet yet. Polemicists, including Ali Sina his FFI goons never bring this up.

Hello ISLAME he didnt tell you the complete story.

There was a boy(Umar if I am not wrong) who wasnt admitted to the battle because he was below 15. He is making an assumption that the same law applied to the girls too. This law was applicable to only boys who wanted to join as soldiers in the army and not for the boys who wanted to join the army for the purposes other than fighting otherwise he would have been allowed.

This law didnt apply to girls at all. We know why he would make such an assumption . These arguments have already been debunked. See what muslim hope wrote:

Quote from: Muslim Hope
More ever from the history of tabari we see that The women and young children went on the battlefield after the battle and gave water to the wounded Muslims and finished off the enemy wounded. al-Tabari vol.12 p.127,146.

During the days of the battle, the women and children were there to dig graves for the dead. al-Tabari vol.12 p.107 so can see that law didnt apply to women and young children did go to the battle fields but not as soldiers to fight but to help the wounded.

As per Tabari young children did accompany during the battles but not as soldiers. So one can clearly guess that Umar was rejected because he wanted to join the army as a soldier otherwise why would Muhhamad allow young children and only reject Umar? The only inference we can draw is because Umar wanted to join the battle as a warrior and was hence rejected.

Did Arabs have child marriages?

Quote from: Muslim Hope
A'isha's marriage was reported by many people, but there was also at least one reference to another child marriage (and consummation) in Mohammed's time too. A lady [presumably married] became a grandmother at 21 years old according to Bukhari vol.3 book 48 ch.18 no.831 p.514.
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Re: Time for Muslims to stop reading the Qur'an
Reply #94 - April 15, 2009, 04:22 PM

Quote from: BMZ on April 15, 2009, 02:29 PM

Muslims are supposed to follow the Sunnah of The Prophet. Right? If the Prophet had married Ayesha in the 6-9 age range, that would have become a Sunnah, legal for all Muslims and they would have followed it gladly.

Even ex-Muslims can verify along with the Muslims that their mothers were not married in that range. There is no record in Islamic history that little girls 6-9 were given to older men in marriage. Why couldn't they be given to 14 year old boys?

Actually, BMZ there is not only record of little girls being married at that age to older men, but its still happens today in Islamic countries, even clerics from your part of the world, South East Asia, do it:

Here are such examples of little girls being wed to much older men, by their Dads.
I've chosen three examples for you, the 1st from the Prophet's own land, Saudi Arabia,the 2nd example from the next land to become Muslim after Saudi, Yemen & the last from the easternmost periphery of Islam-Indonesia:

Enjoy!
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=3980.0;wap2

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=3586.0

http://www.unattributable.com/2009/02/my-hero-a-10-year-old-divorced-yemeni-girl/

Quote from: BMZ on April 15, 2009, 02:29 PM
According to a hadith, Ayesha was present in the battles at Badar and Uhud. All, including the polemicists agree that the Prophet did not allow anyone under fourteen to be present. Many were sent back home but she along with other women was allowed to stay for attending the injured and providing water. It clearly shows that Ayesha was above fourteen. And note that at that time she was not married to the Prophet yet. Polemicists, including Ali Sina his FFI goons never bring this up.

Surely, Prophet did not allow a 4-5 years old little girl to be present in both the battles.

Actually BMZ, Ali Sina goons do bring this up, Ayesha didn't go as a soldier but for purposes of satisfying the sexual needs of Mo.

World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
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Re: Time for Muslims to stop reading the Qur'an
Reply #95 - April 15, 2009, 05:02 PM

Quote from: BMZ on April 15, 2009, 03:25 PM
Quote from: IsLame on April 15, 2009, 02:44 PM
Quote from: BMZ on April 15, 2009, 02:29 PM
I believe for any serious reader this should suffice.

I am a serious reader, and it does not suffice. The only argument you have is an inference i.e. she went to battle, against the actual authenticated hadith telling you her age?

At best the playing with dolls may counteract the battle evidence, however you still have given nothing to prove the
authentic hadith is wrong.

Stop playing us for fools, it sounds like you just want to believe in your fairytale come what may. Then do so, but dont expect anyone here to agree that its true.

Your answer shows that you are not. My mistake for assuming that.

I just explained why a serious reader would not come to this conclusion. You did not, so who is the honest reader?

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- awais
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Re: Time for Muslims to stop reading the Qur'an
Reply #96 - April 16, 2009, 11:00 PM

Quote from: Zaephon on April 13, 2009, 10:07 AM
Quote from: awais
Ever heard of the Khazars? Turkish tribe that converted to Judaism. Minted on their coins "La ilaha IllAllah, Musa Rasool Allah"

This is one isolated and undocumented case, but I'll have to ask for proof first, before I provide the counter-argument. Khazars were averse to the Islamic caliphate, and this inscription sounds like a parody of the Islamic creed to me, i.e. an act of defiance.

Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars#Khazar_coinage
The Khazars are known to have minted silver coins, called Yarmaqs. Many of these were imitations of Arab dirhems with corrupted Arabic letters. Coins of the Caliphate were in widespread use due to their reliable silver content. Merchants from as far away as China, England, and Scandinavia accepted them regardless of their inability to read the Arab writing. Thus issuing imitation dirhems was a way to ensure acceptance of Khazar coinage in foreign lands.

Some surviving examples bear the legend "Ard al-Khazar" (Arabic for "land of the Khazars"). In 1999 a hoard of silver coins was discovered on the property of the Spillings farm in the Swedish island of Gotland. Among the coins were several dated 837/8 CE and bearing the legend, in Arabic script, "Moses is the Prophet of God" (a modification of the Muslim coin inscription "Muhammad is the Prophet of God").[26] In "Creating Khazar Identity through Coins", Roman Kovalev postulated that these dirhems were a special commemorative issue celebrating the adoption of Judaism by the Khazar ruler Bulan.[27]

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- Zaephon
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Re: Time for Muslims to stop reading the Qur'an
Reply #97 - April 17, 2009, 06:32 AM

Well Awais,

What makes you think Moses, or Abraham for that matter, is considered the perfect human being in Judaism, whose every action must be emulated by Jews? Judaism teaches that prophets also sinned, and repented. In other words, they were not perfect.

Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
- awais
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Re: Time for Muslims to stop reading the Qur'an
Reply #98 - April 17, 2009, 07:03 AM

Quote from: Joseph Levine, "Philosophers without gods"
A word about the authority structure. In the yeshiva world, one's heroes are Talmudic scholars. Greatness in learning is the key to membership in the rabbinic "hall of fame." There are two dimensions along which "greatness," and thus authority is measured: one that applies within a particular era, and the other that applies across time. With regard to the former, relative authority is determined by the judgments of peers concerning one's scholarly achievement, just as this is done in secular academic professions. With regard to the latter, the idea is that the farther back in time, the greater the scholar, and thus the more authority (this is a rough approximation). Moses is at the pinnacle, having talked directly to God and received the Torah directly from Him. It's significant that though Moses is the one who led the Jews out of slavery and performed all those miracles in Egypt, he is know by the name "Moshe Rabeinu," which means "Moses our teacher." The prophets and judges come next, then the authors of the Mishna, the authors of Gemara, the early commentaries (the "Rishonim"), the later commentaries (the "Acharonim"), and then finally the scholars of the last couple of centuries. Though the most subtle intellectual work you see is by the later authors, the idea is that all these distinctions and nuances were known by the early scholars and either handed down orally or forgotten and then rediscovered. So one could always introduce a new distinction that solved a tricky problem but have faith that this idea, too, was known to Moshe Rabeinu. Through this mechanism, much latitude for individual creativity was allowed while maintaining the structure of authority.

Much the same way in Islam. First Muhammad, then the sahaba, then the tabi'een, the tabi' tabi'een, and so on.

ETA:

Also peep this silsila (chain) at the head of the tractate Pirkei Avot

Quote
1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and gave it over to Joshua. Joshua gave it over to the Elders, the Elders to the Prophets, and the Prophets gave it over to the Men of the Great Assembly... Shimon the Righteous was among the last surviving members of the Great assembly... Antignos of Socho received the tradition from Shimon the Righteous... (and so on)

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Re: Time for Muslims to stop reading the Qur'an
Reply #99 - April 17, 2009, 07:15 AM

I repeat, Judaism teaches that Moses was not infallible. He killed an Egyptian man even though killing is forbidden. He was forbidden from entering the land he was supposed to conquer because of his sinning, for example.

http://judaism.ajula.edu/Content/ContentUnit.asp?CID=935&u=6248&t=0

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Re: Time for Muslims to stop reading the Qur'an
Reply #100 - April 17, 2009, 07:26 AM

Quote from: awais on April 13, 2009, 09:27 AM
Quote from: Rashna on April 13, 2009, 08:56 AM
For one, Judaism doesn't have a single founder whom they have to regard as the paragon of virtue...

Moshe Rabeinu (Moses, our Teacher/Rabbi), the highest authority after YHWH?

Who said he had to be infallible? I didn't intend to say he was. But he is like Muhammad in Islam, in that he is the highest authority in Judaism.

Muhammad wasn't infallible (in muslim eyes). " 'Abasa wa tawalla.."

I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
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Re: Time for Muslims to stop reading the Qur'an
Reply #101 - April 17, 2009, 07:54 AM

Quote from: awais on April 17, 2009, 07:26 AM
Quote from: awais on April 13, 2009, 09:27 AM
Quote from: Rashna on April 13, 2009, 08:56 AM
For one, Judaism doesn't have a single founder whom they have to regard as the paragon of virtue...

Moshe Rabeinu (Moses, our Teacher/Rabbi), the highest authority after YHWH?

Who said he had to be infallible? I didn't intend to say he was. But he is like Muhammad in Islam, in that he is the highest authority in Judaism.

Muhammad wasn't infallible (in muslim eyes). " 'Abasa wa tawalla.."

Strange, isn't Mohammad considered a role model for all humanity? Where does Judaism ascribe a similar authority to Moses?

The Quran rules out the idea that prophets could make mistakes, correct me if I'm wrong. No such thing in Judaism.

Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
- awais
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Re: Time for Muslims to stop reading the Qur'an
Reply #102 - April 17, 2009, 08:12 AM

Okay, maybe you didn't get my reference, " 'Abasa watawalla", from the Qur'an, means "he (Mo) frowned and turned away." He did this to an old blind man wishing to hear the message.

Moses killing a man is also recorded in the Qur'an and the hadith.

I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
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