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 Topic: Fear of Hell

 (Read 35071 times)
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  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #120 - April 18, 2009, 11:38 PM
    As an example in "shame societies" (like eastern cultures based on the sense of "honor" like Japan) social order is not kept by any fear of Hell or Heaven, but simply by the concept of Honor vs Shame
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #121 - April 18, 2009, 11:56 PM
    Yes but in those situations dishonour is like hell. Wink
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #122 - April 18, 2009, 11:59 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on April 18, 2009, 11:56 PM
    Yes but in those situations dishonour is like hell. Wink


    No, it isn't.  Dishonour is only a mortal condition, you can get rid of it instantly  by suiciide.  Hell is eternal, it is neverending torture designed and dished out by a God who is described as Merciful.   parrot
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #123 - April 19, 2009, 12:01 AM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on April 18, 2009, 11:36 PM
    Quote from: kope on April 18, 2009, 11:28 PM
    i agree with you most of thing you said but  fear of hell still number one reason people dont do crime

    This sounds like a made up statistic.

    Especially if you consider all the present and past cultures that do not believe in heaven or hell, yet managed to have social order just like the heaven/hell believers.



    every cultures of the past believe in god's punishment
    please read my blog, read how islam will win
    the clash of civilization.

    http://www.xanga.com/hfghj23458654fgha
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #124 - April 19, 2009, 12:04 AM
    Quote from: kope on April 19, 2009, 12:01 AM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on April 18, 2009, 11:36 PM
    Quote from: kope on April 18, 2009, 11:28 PM
    i agree with you most of thing you said but  fear of hell still number one reason people dont do crime

    This sounds like a made up statistic.

    Especially if you consider all the present and past cultures that do not believe in heaven or hell, yet managed to have social order just like the heaven/hell believers.



    every cultures of the past believe in god's punishment


    That's because they didn't have police forces and forensic evidence in the cultures of the past.   Wink 
     
    Its fear of punishment that keeps people from crime, not God or Hell.  In this day and age the concept of God is obsolete, we have CCTV cameras to take his place.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #125 - April 19, 2009, 12:07 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on April 18, 2009, 11:59 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on April 18, 2009, 11:56 PM
    Yes but in those situations dishonour is like hell. Wink


    No, it isn't.  Dishonour is only a mortal condition, you can get rid of it instantly  by suiciide.  Hell is eternal, it is neverending torture designed and dished out by a God who is described as Merciful.   parrot

    I meant it serves the purpose of discouraging deviation from the social norms. Bloody literalists.  Tongue
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #126 - April 19, 2009, 12:15 AM
    Quote from: skynightblaze on April 18, 2009, 08:20 PM
    @KOPE

    I will view that video tomorrow and post my response too. ITs late here now . I need to sleep. See you tomorrow here itself. Smiley


    sorry you need to watch all video

    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=search_playlists&search_query=From+Atheism+to+Belief%3A+A+Journey+to+Islam+in+North+America+by+Dr.+Jeffrey+Lang+%28Part+1/17%29&uni=1
    please read my blog, read how islam will win
    the clash of civilization.

    http://www.xanga.com/hfghj23458654fgha
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #127 - April 19, 2009, 12:19 AM
    Quote from: allat on April 18, 2009, 08:19 PM
    kope, You might find this interesting:

     
    Quote
    human beings are inherently moral creatures, as our sociality would demand



    i agree with that but human still need to know what is right and what is wrong

    please read my blog, read how islam will win
    the clash of civilization.

    http://www.xanga.com/hfghj23458654fgha
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #128 - April 19, 2009, 12:22 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on April 18, 2009, 11:37 PM
    I have no fear of hell and I don't commit crimes.


    that may be true but that does not mean we close down prison cell dance
    please read my blog, read how islam will win
    the clash of civilization.

    http://www.xanga.com/hfghj23458654fgha
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #129 - April 19, 2009, 12:53 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 18, 2009, 07:35 PM
    Quote from: kope on April 18, 2009, 07:32 PM
    desires over come morals

    people dont kill, rape, robe because fear of jail and hell

    So you would kill, rape & steal if you didnt believe in hell?

    I asked him that already and he dodged it.


    Quote from: AlmostAisha on April 18, 2009, 08:35 PM
    Rather than hell being created to punish people who do bad deeds, it seems its greatest purpose is to punish something as trivial as disbelief.

    Most of the mentions of Hell in the Qur'an revolve around various thought crimes like that. Rape, for example, remains noticeably absent, whereas you will go to Hell for spiritually disagreeing with Muhammad.

    Such threats of punishment for unfettered thinking makes Hell, especially the Islamic version, nothing other than a political prison and torture chamber.
    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #130 - April 19, 2009, 01:48 AM
    The thing about it is, the the "hell concept" does not fit into modern view point of punishment.

    When we look at our current legal systems, they are based on two things:
    1)Segregating anti social elements from the society in order to protect them
    2)Rehabilitation

    The concept of rehabilitation is a key here. Even in a shame system (as was mentioned prior) the offender has a chance to redeem their honor later. Like wise in a prison system, the offender again, has an oppertunity to change their ways and redeem themselves (hence parole). For people who are deemed psycotic there is mental help, as well.
    In the case of someone who is given a life sentence, they still have that opportunity, even if they must live out that life segregated from society.
    Even someone given a death penalty, it is done in a humane manner. They are not say...slowly tortured with cigar burns.
    Because the purpose of these punishments are not simply to make them suffer for the sake of making them suffer.

    There are also valid reasons, In each case, the criminal is not punished just for the sake of punishing. The punishment is done for a reason, to accomplish something, be it protecting the rest of society from harmful sociopaths or attempting to rehabilitate.
    In all the above examples, there is, of course, a final ending to the punishment...even if that ending is death.


    One big problem with hell concept, is that...there is simply no reason for it. A god would have nothing to fear from a mortal...so what does he need protection from? The souls that offend the god can simply be Poofed out of existence...the end, no reason to worry about them anymore. If the punishment is eternal, there is no rehabilitation.  So what is the point? 

    There simply is no point to it. There is no "corrective action", I becomes simply...vindictive torture for the sake of torturing, it doesnt serve any purpose.
     that is one of the major reasons why it is immoral.
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #131 - April 19, 2009, 02:25 AM
    I would also like to mention that the Eastern religions do not have a concept of heaven or hell, only psychospiritual liberation. They would only posit heaven or hell as certain temporally conditioned psychological states created by one's ego. The ultimate, timeless state of being according to the Eastern religions is some kind of state of psychospiritual liberation and eternal bliss -- called moksha in Hinduism and nirvana in Buddhism.

    Thus it is clear that not all religions have such a cruel conception of the Divine.

    And strictly speaking, according to the Eastern religions, even the worst human being is loved by the Divine and can be redeemed through a process of inner psychospiritual purification. Milarepa, the Buddhist sage, used to be a murderer, who according to legend went through tremendous suffering and finally reformed himself and attained enlightenment.
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #132 - April 19, 2009, 03:09 AM
    Quote from: ned on April 19, 2009, 02:25 AM
    I would also like to mention that the Eastern religions do not have a concept of heaven or hell,


    no reward nor punisment so why do they believe in god for?
    please read my blog, read how islam will win
    the clash of civilization.

    http://www.xanga.com/hfghj23458654fgha
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #133 - April 19, 2009, 03:13 AM
    Quote from: kope on April 19, 2009, 03:09 AM
    Quote from: ned on April 19, 2009, 02:25 AM
    I would also like to mention that the Eastern religions do not have a concept of heaven or hell,


    no reward nor punisment so why do they believe in god for?


    Because of spiritual experiences.

    I can only quote a Sufi saint, Rabia of Basra.

    "O Allah! if I worship you for fear of hell
    Burn me in hell
    If I worship you in hope of paradise
    Exclude me from paradise
    But if I worship you for your own sake
    Grudge me not your everlasting beauty..."

    I suspect that many of the Sufis who came after Muhammad were quite ethically and spiritually superior to him.
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #134 - April 19, 2009, 03:23 AM
    Quote from: ned on April 19, 2009, 03:13 AM
    Quote from: kope on April 19, 2009, 03:09 AM
    Quote from: ned on April 19, 2009, 02:25 AM
    I would also like to mention that the Eastern religions do not have a concept of heaven or hell,


    no reward nor punisment so why do they believe in god for?


    Because of spiritual experiences.




    if you dont mind please explain what is spiritual experiences?
    please read my blog, read how islam will win
    the clash of civilization.

    http://www.xanga.com/hfghj23458654fgha
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #135 - April 19, 2009, 03:26 AM
    Quote from: kope on April 19, 2009, 03:23 AM
    if you dont mind please explain what is spiritual experiences?

    Like Muhammad hearing Angel Gabriel speaking to him. ;-)

    All religions started off with someone having subjective experiences that they felt corresponded to nonmaterial realms of reality.
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #136 - April 19, 2009, 03:43 AM
    Quote from: ned on April 19, 2009, 03:26 AM
    Quote from: kope on April 19, 2009, 03:23 AM

    All religions started off with someone having subjective experiences that they felt corresponded to nonmaterial realms of reality.



    i am trying to find what they get for believing in their god if there is no after life?

    please read my blog, read how islam will win
    the clash of civilization.

    http://www.xanga.com/hfghj23458654fgha
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #137 - April 19, 2009, 03:49 AM
    Quote from: kope on April 19, 2009, 03:43 AM
    Quote from: ned on April 19, 2009, 03:26 AM

    All religions started off with someone having subjective experiences that they felt corresponded to nonmaterial realms of reality.



    i am trying to find what they get for believing in their god if there is no after life?


    Kope, just let it go.

    I already told you that the Eastern religions (and by the way, some forms of Sufism as well) believe that the eternal timeless state of being is a state of psychospiritual liberation in which one becomes united with God. Supposedly in this state one attains eternal peace, love, bliss, wisdom. That sounds far, far better than heaven or hell to me.
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #138 - April 19, 2009, 05:36 AM
    Quote from: kope on April 19, 2009, 12:15 AM
    Quote from: skynightblaze on April 18, 2009, 08:20 PM
    @KOPE

    I will view that video tomorrow and post my response too. ITs late here now . I need to sleep. See you tomorrow here itself. Smiley


    sorry you need to watch all video

    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=search_playlists&search_query=From+Atheism+to+Belief%3A+A+Journey+to+Islam+in+North+America+by+Dr.+Jeffrey+Lang+%28Part+1/17%29&uni=1


    There are 17 videos . That would be a boring job. Instead why dont you post the summary of what he said in those videos? It would be better for me in that case.
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #139 - April 19, 2009, 08:32 AM
    Question:
    The following verse
    Quote
    He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving (Al-Mulk 67:2)

    indicates that the sole purpose of life and death is for us to perform the deeds by which we will be judged on the Day of Judgment. Allah already knew who would go to heaven and who to hell before he even created us, but this way it is said that the ultimate judgement is more 'fair' because we will have known our own deeds and will understand why we are in heaven/hell. Bypassing the lack of logic and justice here, my question is:

    According to Islam, would a baby who dies go to heaven or hell?

    The baby has no deeds or decisions that it can be judged by, so does it automatically go to heaven? I can see no justifiable reason why the baby should go to hell, such a sentence would be the epitome of injustice.
    The thing is... even if the baby is sent to heaven, this is very unjust. Why should any souls basically get a free pass to heaven without having been tested?

    If the purpose of life and death is truly to test us, then how can souls who die as babies be judged? Doesn't this prove that God's testing system is not perfect or just?

    "when you've got thousands of hadith/sunnah and a book like the Qur'an where abrogation is propagated by some; anyone with a grudge and some time on their hands can find something to confirm what ever they wish"- Kaiwai
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #140 - April 19, 2009, 08:42 AM
    Quote from: AlmostAisha on April 19, 2009, 08:32 AM
    Question:
    The following verse
    Quote
    He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving (Al-Mulk 67:2)

    indicates that the sole purpose of life and death is for us to perform the deeds by which we will be judged on the Day of Judgment. Allah already knew who would go to heaven and who to hell before he even created us, but this way it is said that the ultimate judgement is more 'fair' because we will have known our own deeds and will understand why we are in heaven/hell. Bypassing the lack of logic and justice here, my question is:

    According to Islam, would a baby who dies go to heaven or hell?

    The baby has no deeds or decisions that it can be judged by, so does it automatically go to heaven? I can see no justifiable reason why the baby should go to hell, such a sentence would be the epitome of injustice.
    The thing is... even if the baby is sent to heaven, this is very unjust. Why should any souls basically get a free pass to heaven without having been tested?

    If the purpose of life and death is truly to test us, then how can souls who die as babies be judged? Doesn't this prove that God's testing system is not perfect or just?



    If its a test then why does he not let the baby live to carry out the test?  Is his power restricted?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #141 - April 19, 2009, 10:04 AM
    Quote from: ned on April 19, 2009, 02:25 AM
    I would also like to mention that the Eastern religions do not have a concept of heaven or hell, only psychospiritual liberation.


    Taoism does.
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #142 - April 19, 2009, 11:36 AM
    Quote from: skynightblaze on April 19, 2009, 05:36 AM
    Quote from: kope on April 19, 2009, 12:15 AM
    Quote from: skynightblaze on April 18, 2009, 08:20 PM
    @KOPE

    I will view that video tomorrow and post my response too. ITs late here now . I need to sleep. See you tomorrow here itself. Smiley


    sorry you need to watch all video

    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=search_playlists&search_query=From+Atheism+to+Belief%3A+A+Journey+to+Islam+in+North+America+by+Dr.+Jeffrey+Lang+%28Part+1/17%29&uni=1


    There are 17 videos . That would be a boring job. Instead why dont you post the summary of what he said in those videos? It would be better for me in that case.


    sorry
    i cant write, to let you know that same question satan ask god before god created human, why are  you creating this violent human creature ?
    please read my blog, read how islam will win
    the clash of civilization.

    http://www.xanga.com/hfghj23458654fgha
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #143 - April 19, 2009, 11:38 AM
    Quote from: kope on April 19, 2009, 11:36 AM
    Quote from: skynightblaze on April 19, 2009, 05:36 AM
    Quote from: kope on April 19, 2009, 12:15 AM
    Quote from: skynightblaze on April 18, 2009, 08:20 PM
    @KOPE

    I will view that video tomorrow and post my response too. ITs late here now . I need to sleep. See you tomorrow here itself. Smiley


    sorry you need to watch all video

    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=search_playlists&search_query=From+Atheism+to+Belief%3A+A+Journey+to+Islam+in+North+America+by+Dr.+Jeffrey+Lang+%28Part+1/17%29&uni=1


    There are 17 videos . That would be a boring job. Instead why dont you post the summary of what he said in those videos? It would be better for me in that case.


    sorry
    i cant write, to let you know that same question satan ask god before god created human, why are  you creating this violent human creature ?


    Let me guess that you are hinting that its for testing purposes i.e to send humans to hell and heaven depending upon the test. Am I right?
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #144 - April 19, 2009, 11:43 AM
    Quote from: kope on April 18, 2009, 11:20 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on April 18, 2009, 07:59 PM
    Quote from: kope on April 18, 2009, 07:41 PM
    most believers avoid doing evil because of fear hell


    So what would happen to people if you took the fear of Hell away?





    human will commit more crime without guilt


    That is quite simply false as I and most of the people here who don't believe in Hell can attest to.

    But lets assume that it does work - at least on some people.

    There is no reason to actually carry out the punishment in the next life is there?

    These 'criminals'  Roll Eyes (people who don't believe) are not going to commit any crimes now are they?

    They have died and left this world.

    There is no reason and no need for God to keep someone alive for ever just to torture them over and over again.

    That is just sick and sadistic?

    Or are you saying that Hell is just an empty threat meant to scare people and God won't really burn anyone?

    Which is it?

  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #145 - April 19, 2009, 11:48 AM
    Quote from: Pazuzu on April 19, 2009, 12:53 AM
    Most of the mentions of Hell in the Qur'an revolve around various thought crimes like that... you will go to Hell for spiritually disagreeing with Muhammad.


    Exactly!

    @Kope - you keep talking about Rape & Murder - but as Pazazu and I and others keep pointing out, people will be burnt ternally simply for NOT ACCEPTING ISLAM.

    So please stop talking about Rape and Murder.
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #146 - April 19, 2009, 11:52 AM
    Muslim rapists and murderers eventually get out. So does Osama. (In muslim cosmology) But because I simply doubt in my head, without raping, or murdering anyone, I never have a chance of getting out! Huwa al-'Adl fo sho! (He is truly 'The Most Just'!) Roll Eyes
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #147 - April 19, 2009, 11:59 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on April 19, 2009, 11:48 AM
    Quote from: Pazuzu on April 19, 2009, 12:53 AM
    Most of the mentions of Hell in the Qur'an revolve around various thought crimes like that... you will go to Hell for spiritually disagreeing with Muhammad.


    Exactly!

    @Kope - you keep talking about Rape & Murder - but as Pazazu and I and others keep pointing out, people will be burnt ternally simply for NOT ACCEPTING ISLAM.





    my understanding of islam

    On the day of judgment God will judge each person on an individual basis not our religious affiliation ie Islam, Christainty, Judaism, Hinduism etc . God Almighty knows what's in the heart of man/woman and will judge us based on our deeds and the choices we make in life.
    please read my blog, read how islam will win
    the clash of civilization.

    http://www.xanga.com/hfghj23458654fgha
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #148 - April 19, 2009, 12:00 PM
    That isn't what the Quran says. Are you claiming the Quran is wrong?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Fear of Hell
     Reply #149 - April 19, 2009, 12:01 PM
    That's a nice understanding to have, but that's not how we understand it to be the Orthodox opinion.
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
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