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Theme Changer

 Topic: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?

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  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #30 - May 06, 2009, 10:54 PM

    "blind fold" me, "drug" me, and send me back to my (Islamic) country.


    Have your parents threatened you with this? Have you spoken to your social worker about it?

  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #31 - May 06, 2009, 11:04 PM

    KK, I think it would be smarter to wait for a month. That way he can still have the backing of the social worker but there are no legal complications with age.

    No hun, there will be no complications with his age. The local authorty will overide and parental rights his parents have and they will put him in foster care or in an adolesant unit. If he believes his life is genuinely in danger they can do it immediately. (I work for CHAMS, I know lol)

    Also, waiting a month is no good, hes under legal guardianship of his parents till hes 18, 1 if hes in full time further education. The "16" thing just means he can claim income support for himself if hes living alone.

    I think in practice it isn't going to be what he thinks. It'll be what he can convince the social services of. That's an entirely different matter.


    No he doesnt need to convince them, legally hes a child. If he tell them that they have threatend him with that they will remove him and put him on the child protection register immediately. They wont fuck about, they are under alot of pressure esp. since baby p, no hes not a baby, but if anythin happend to him they would be fucked
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #32 - May 06, 2009, 11:08 PM

    KK, I think it would be smarter to wait for a month. That way he can still have the backing of the social worker but there are no legal complications with age.

    No hun, there will be no complications with his age. The local authorty will overide and parental rights his parents have and they will put him in foster care or in an adolesant unit. If he believes his life is genuinely in danger they can do it immediately. (I work for CHAMS, I know lol)

    Also, waiting a month is no good, hes under legal guardianship of his parents till hes 18, 1 if hes in full time further education. The "16" thing just means he can claim income support for himself if hes living alone.

    I think in practice it isn't going to be what he thinks. It'll be what he can convince the social services of. That's an entirely different matter.


    No he doesnt need to convince them, legally hes a child. If he tell them that they have threatend him with that they will remove him and put him on the child protection register immediately. They wont fuck about, they are under alot of pressure esp. since baby p, no hes not a baby, but if anythin happend to him they would be fucked


    I wouldn't be so sure. There is another value at stake here and that is the value that children should be in the care of their parents. Depends on who you get deciding your case, to be honest.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #33 - May 06, 2009, 11:25 PM

    KK, I think it would be smarter to wait for a month. That way he can still have the backing of the social worker but there are no legal complications with age.

    No hun, there will be no complications with his age. The local authorty will overide and parental rights his parents have and they will put him in foster care or in an adolesant unit. If he believes his life is genuinely in danger they can do it immediately. (I work for CHAMS, I know lol)

    Also, waiting a month is no good, hes under legal guardianship of his parents till hes 18, 1 if hes in full time further education. The "16" thing just means he can claim income support for himself if hes living alone.

    I think in practice it isn't going to be what he thinks. It'll be what he can convince the social services of. That's an entirely different matter.


    No he doesnt need to convince them, legally hes a child. If he tell them that they have threatend him with that they will remove him and put him on the child protection register immediately. They wont fuck about, they are under alot of pressure esp. since baby p, no hes not a baby, but if anythin happend to him they would be fucked


    I wouldn't be so sure. There is another value at stake here and that is the value that children should be in the care of their parents. Depends on who you get deciding your case, to be honest.


    I guess
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #34 - May 07, 2009, 06:07 AM

    Hi Ramadulla,

    I think the advice given by previous users is good. It may be very tempting just to up and leave now but you may want to think about the legal implications that may have on you. Here is something I have found which maybe of benefit to you:

    ''Other young people leave home because their family is splitting up, or there may be serious, insurmountable problems such as physical or sexual abuse. There are several options, but a lot depends on exactly how old you are:

        * If over 18 you can decide yourself when to leave home - your parents have no legal control over you. If homeless, the local authority may have a duty to house you. Contact them for the relevant information.
        * If you are 16 or 17 you can still leave home if your parents give their consent or if you get married (again with your parents' consent)
       * If you are 16 or 17 and leave home without consent you can be reported to the police as 'missing'. If you are safe, the police are generally reluctant to get involved, but may ask other agencies to play a part.
        * If 16 or 17 and homeless, the social services department have a duty to provide you with accommodation if they feel you will suffer more without it. If you cannot return home and ask social services to help, they have an obligation to find you accommodation.
        * If you leave home aged under 16, your parents are still legally responsible for you. You could stay with another adult if he or she can obtain a legal residence order, but that's only if there is a clear reason why you can't return home. This is a complex area of law and you will need to seek help from a housing advice centre.

        * If under 16 you're still legally obliged to attend school, you cannot claim benefits or work full-time. Consequently, many young people in this situation end up sleeping on the streets and are very vulnerable.''

    http://www.youthinformation.com/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=90596

    I also recommend you check out the website by the charity Shelter: http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/finding_a_place_to_live/leaving_home/permission_to_leave_home




    Are the above UK laws? I thought that anyone is able to leave at 16, without any parental consent?
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #35 - May 07, 2009, 06:15 AM

    Ramadulla, if you're 16 in a month it might be best to keep shtum for a month, and then talk to your social worker.  He/she can help you with accommodation, college places, benefits and all the rest of the things you will be entitled to at that stage.  If you speak up now it'll be a case of putting you in care or something.


    I can manage a month, yes, as I have exams coming and my parents would not bother me as much. However I simply cannot survive once my exams are finished, as I have an extra-long holiday where I would be staying with my parents, which equals Hell without the fire.
    I really don't know how to get started in planning. Maybe I should - then ask my social worker for further advice, and to possibly help me with accommodation? I can hardly see why I wouldn't be eligible.

    Thanks for your help everyone, you're all extremely supportive!  yes
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #36 - May 07, 2009, 06:26 AM

    Yeah man, the best thing to do is try to find some sort of a middle ground. You are still a child and rebelling would be counter productive. You don't have to tell your parents that you don't believe, but you don't have to be a practicing muslim. Just tell them that at this age, they cannot tell you to say your prayers and it is up to you now. And try to use evidence from Qur'an and Hadith as well whenever possible. They will be impressed by that and have no counter!


    Yeah, tell them that the Quran says there is no compulsion in religion. So its not compulsary to read namaz rite??

    Well there is that hadith about beating your children after 7 yrs of age if they don't pray...

    Best of luck Ramadulla

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #37 - May 07, 2009, 01:57 PM


    Got referred to this website by my social worker for support, as I, too, am an 'apostate'. My reason being is that religion just didn't make sense to me, after examining Islamic texts, doctrines, speeches of Imams and manipulating parents.

    I am currently 15 and struggling to even slightly open up to others about the fact that, no, I am not a Muslim - and why should it matter? The society that I live in is not accepting of others who aren't Muslim; suspecting that we are 'untrustworthy' etc.

    But I remotely care about the above. My problem lies the issue regarding my parents. My father has threatened to kill me on many occasions; so has my mother, threatening to 'butcher' me. They force me into prayers and are extremely aggressive and narrow-minded to the prospect of people denying Islam, labeling them 'ignorant' and 'hell-fire'.

    I could just go on and on. I wouldn't like to bore you, though.

    Anyway - it's a welcome from me!  Smiley

    (Any advice is warmly appreciated.)


    You asked: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?

    Why is anybody so stubborn?

    I think its due to some muslims' faith. Its no different from your infidelity.


    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #38 - May 07, 2009, 03:08 PM

    Sorry to hear about your predicament. But as you see you have a lot of support here.

    All I can advise is to try holding out as long as you can. You intend on doing A'Levels? See if you can stick it out at home until your A'Levels are done.

    Leaving home does not mean you will be safe. Don't forget within the community there are those who are willing to hunt down those who dishonour the family and bring them back or kill them. So be careful.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #39 - May 07, 2009, 03:15 PM

    Got referred to this website by my social worker for support, as I, too, am an 'apostate'.


    Not much to add on the great posts that have been made so far, but wow, a social worker referred you to this site?  That is FANTASTIC.

    I wonder if you are local to me because I have spent alot of time advertising this site and the council of ex muslims to the organisations I am involved with like social services and the mental health team, womens aid etc, and it would be nice to think that your referral here was as a result of that.

    Lol how egotistical is that?

    Still I must say I am very very pleased to know that we are considered a place of support to some, I hope we are able to help you come to terms with the stuff you are facing. hugs

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #40 - May 07, 2009, 03:18 PM



    Leaving home does not mean you will be safe. Don't forget within the community there are those who are willing to hunt down those who dishonour the family and bring them back or kill them. So be careful.



    It does if she is prepared to move far with the aid of social services.

    My 15 yr old sister is going through pretty much the same thing right now, the threats, the control, and social services who are not doing exactly what it is they should be doing, ie removing the teen/child from the house on the mere threat of honour killing alone.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #41 - May 07, 2009, 03:23 PM

    Hi Ramadulla,

    I think the advice given by previous users is good. It may be very tempting just to up and leave now but you may want to think about the legal implications that may have on you. Here is something I have found which maybe of benefit to you:

    ''Other young people leave home because their family is splitting up, or there may be serious, insurmountable problems such as physical or sexual abuse. There are several options, but a lot depends on exactly how old you are:

        * If over 18 you can decide yourself when to leave home - your parents have no legal control over you. If homeless, the local authority may have a duty to house you. Contact them for the relevant information.
        * If you are 16 or 17 you can still leave home if your parents give their consent or if you get married (again with your parents' consent)
       * If you are 16 or 17 and leave home without consent you can be reported to the police as 'missing'. If you are safe, the police are generally reluctant to get involved, but may ask other agencies to play a part.
        * If 16 or 17 and homeless, the social services department have a duty to provide you with accommodation if they feel you will suffer more without it. If you cannot return home and ask social services to help, they have an obligation to find you accommodation.
        * If you leave home aged under 16, your parents are still legally responsible for you. You could stay with another adult if he or she can obtain a legal residence order, but that's only if there is a clear reason why you can't return home. This is a complex area of law and you will need to seek help from a housing advice centre.

        * If under 16 you're still legally obliged to attend school, you cannot claim benefits or work full-time. Consequently, many young people in this situation end up sleeping on the streets and are very vulnerable.''

    http://www.youthinformation.com/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=90596

    I also recommend you check out the website by the charity Shelter: http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/finding_a_place_to_live/leaving_home/permission_to_leave_home




    Are the above UK laws? I thought that anyone is able to leave at 16, without any parental consent?

    These are English laws. You need parental consent to leave home before you are legally classed as an adult i.e. 18 years of age.
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #42 - May 07, 2009, 03:29 PM


    These are English laws. You need parental consent to leave home before you are legally classed as an adult i.e. 18 years of age.


    I think pressure needs to be put on social services and the government to recognise that muslim (and other religious or ethnic minorities) teenagers are at an increased risk of violence and death at the hand of family members because of the clash of western and islamic ideals.

    It is standard operating procedure to reognise that teenagers do rebel, and act out, and this in a violent household, or one under the pressure to have "honour" is more dangerous.

    The council of ex muslims must target these organisations and force them to recognise how they are failing many teenagers and children today.

    My sister needs to go into care, or to come and live with me, but she is 15 and as the above laws show it would take a bit of a fight to get parental care for her on my part than it would for social services to step up to the plate and actually help her by putting her somewhere safe.

    The OP was referred here, which is good, but it is still negligence on the part of social services.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #43 - May 07, 2009, 03:34 PM



    Leaving home does not mean you will be safe. Don't forget within the community there are those who are willing to hunt down those who dishonour the family and bring them back or kill them. So be careful.



    It does if she is prepared to move far with the aid of social services.

    My 15 yr old sister is going through pretty much the same thing right now, the threats, the control, and social services who are not doing exactly what it is they should be doing, ie removing the teen/child from the house on the mere threat of honour killing alone.


    This is what I am scared might happen if Ramadulla and her social worker take legal action. Its not an easy thing to just take someone's son/daughter away and give them accomodation and have them fully financially supported by the government. A lot of people in the legal profession couldn't be bothered with the hassle.

    Berberella, do you live away from home now? Do your parents know you have left Islam? If so, what was their reaction? Your sister has a lot of trust in you and looks up to you for support, I bet. That's amazing that 2 people from the same family have left Islam. She is very fortunate.

    I remember when I turned 16 and when I did, I realized that if I wanted to do A levels, I had to stay put. If I was to leave home at 16 then my future would have gone down the pot. That was the reason many people in the Muslim community told me to stay put, and looking back on it now, it was probably the best advice they could have given me. If you are sure you don't want to go to university, then this won't matter to you, but you might end up saying to yourself, "well what now?" And I really wouldn't dismiss uni out of hand. I recommend you give it serious consideration.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #44 - May 07, 2009, 03:46 PM



    This is what I am scared might happen if Ramadulla and her social worker take legal action. Its not an easy thing to just take someone's son/daughter away and give them accomodation and have them fully financially supported by the government. A lot of people in the legal profession couldn't be bothered with the hassle.

    Berberella, do you live away from home now? Do your parents know you have left Islam? If so, what was their reaction? Your sister has a lot of trust in you and looks up to you for support, I bet. That's amazing that 2 people from the same family have left Islam. She is very fortunate.

    I remember when I turned 16 and when I did, I realized that if I wanted to do A levels, I had to stay put. If I was to leave home at 16 then my future would have gone down the pot. That was the reason many people in the Muslim community told me to stay put, and looking back on it now, it was probably the best advice they could have given me. If you are sure you don't want to go to university, then this won't matter to you, but you might end up saying to yourself, "well what now?" And I really wouldn't dismiss uni out of hand. I recommend you give it serious consideration.


    I left my parents house when I was 13, social services took me away from my parents, along with my 15yr old sister. 

    My parents were taken to court and social services were granted a full care order, so I do know that it's hard, it was hard for me too, but it can be done.

    I met people in care who were there for stupider reasons than the OP or my sister have, many of them had lives I would have killed for, but they just rebelled and went to care.

    I am well and truly older now, and yes my parents know but they have said I am crazy and crazy people don't get judged by allah so I'm off the hook, just as long as I don't try and take any of my siblings with me lol which I intend to.

    But my 15yr old sister is not being given the help, this is inspite of my parents record, my step mothers criminal conviction for child abuse, they are still reluctant to step in and get my sister out of a place where she is threatened with honour killings for simply being a normal teenager.

    Social services greatly anger me at times.  finmad

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #45 - May 07, 2009, 04:17 PM



    This is what I am scared might happen if Ramadulla and her social worker take legal action. Its not an easy thing to just take someone's son/daughter away and give them accomodation and have them fully financially supported by the government. A lot of people in the legal profession couldn't be bothered with the hassle.

    Berberella, do you live away from home now? Do your parents know you have left Islam? If so, what was their reaction? Your sister has a lot of trust in you and looks up to you for support, I bet. That's amazing that 2 people from the same family have left Islam. She is very fortunate.

    I remember when I turned 16 and when I did, I realized that if I wanted to do A levels, I had to stay put. If I was to leave home at 16 then my future would have gone down the pot. That was the reason many people in the Muslim community told me to stay put, and looking back on it now, it was probably the best advice they could have given me. If you are sure you don't want to go to university, then this won't matter to you, but you might end up saying to yourself, "well what now?" And I really wouldn't dismiss uni out of hand. I recommend you give it serious consideration.


    I left my parents house when I was 13, social services took me away from my parents, along with my 15yr old sister. 

    My parents were taken to court and social services were granted a full care order, so I do know that it's hard, it was hard for me too, but it can be done.

    I met people in care who were there for stupider reasons than the OP or my sister have, many of them had lives I would have killed for, but they just rebelled and went to care.

    I am well and truly older now, and yes my parents know but they have said I am crazy and crazy people don't get judged by allah so I'm off the hook, just as long as I don't try and take any of my siblings with me lol which I intend to.

    But my 15yr old sister is not being given the help, this is inspite of my parents record, my step mothers criminal conviction for child abuse, they are still reluctant to step in and get my sister out of a place where she is threatened with honour killings for simply being a normal teenager.

    Social services greatly anger me at times.  finmad


    So you have another sister who is 2 years older than you? You said in your first sentence that when you were 13 you were taken into social care along with your 15 year old sister. I couldn't tell whether you meant your sister who is 15 now (who you have just been telling us about) or whether you have another sister who was 15 at the time.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #46 - May 07, 2009, 05:24 PM



    This is what I am scared might happen if Ramadulla and her social worker take legal action. Its not an easy thing to just take someone's son/daughter away and give them accomodation and have them fully financially supported by the government. A lot of people in the legal profession couldn't be bothered with the hassle.

    Berberella, do you live away from home now? Do your parents know you have left Islam? If so, what was their reaction? Your sister has a lot of trust in you and looks up to you for support, I bet. That's amazing that 2 people from the same family have left Islam. She is very fortunate.

    I remember when I turned 16 and when I did, I realized that if I wanted to do A levels, I had to stay put. If I was to leave home at 16 then my future would have gone down the pot. That was the reason many people in the Muslim community told me to stay put, and looking back on it now, it was probably the best advice they could have given me. If you are sure you don't want to go to university, then this won't matter to you, but you might end up saying to yourself, "well what now?" And I really wouldn't dismiss uni out of hand. I recommend you give it serious consideration.


    I left my parents house when I was 13, social services took me away from my parents, along with my 15yr old sister. 

    My parents were taken to court and social services were granted a full care order, so I do know that it's hard, it was hard for me too, but it can be done.

    I met people in care who were there for stupider reasons than the OP or my sister have, many of them had lives I would have killed for, but they just rebelled and went to care.

    I am well and truly older now, and yes my parents know but they have said I am crazy and crazy people don't get judged by allah so I'm off the hook, just as long as I don't try and take any of my siblings with me lol which I intend to.

    But my 15yr old sister is not being given the help, this is inspite of my parents record, my step mothers criminal conviction for child abuse, they are still reluctant to step in and get my sister out of a place where she is threatened with honour killings for simply being a normal teenager.

    Social services greatly anger me at times.  finmad


    That is extremely inspiring! Maybe I should push Social Services around a bit...
    I've found them pretty useless thus far, other than giving self-explanatory assurance  to me. They're too lazy to take any action.

    My Dad is also involved in the creation of fake University certificates, which he enforces me to help him with. I suggested it and Social Services merely stated that I should 'call the Police'.
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #47 - May 07, 2009, 06:25 PM

    my parents know but they have said I am crazy and crazy people don't get judged by allah so I'm off the hook


     Cheesy

    So allah has a "not guilty by reason of insanity" clause, eh? That's so nice, so adl of him.  grin12

    Thanks allah for driving us all insane first with your insane ideas spread by insane megalomaniacs, and then deeming thsoe of us seeking sanity in an insane world made up of those who believe in an insane deity, too insane to be judged by your insane rules. This allah dude makes Robert Mugabe look like Mother Teresa.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #48 - May 07, 2009, 06:54 PM



    So you have another sister who is 2 years older than you? You said in your first sentence that when you were 13 you were taken into social care along with your 15 year old sister. I couldn't tell whether you meant your sister who is 15 now (who you have just been telling us about) or whether you have another sister who was 15 at the time.


    Yes, I have a sister who is 2 years older than me.

    Sibling tree goes a little like this:

    1 - Older sister (34) (no contact)

    2 - Me (32)

    3 - Sister (28) (lived with me when she ran away from home, helped her get settled)

    4 - Sister (23) (mentally disabled otherwise I doubt she would have stayed home either)

    3 - Brother (21) (lived with me when he ran away from home, ended up throwing him out because he is a bastard))

    4 - Brother (18) (living with me)

    5 - Sister (15) (the one who is currently in need of help from social services)



    That is extremely inspiring! Maybe I should push Social Services around a bit...
    I've found them pretty useless thus far, other than giving self-explanatory assurance  to me. They're too lazy to take any action.

    My Dad is also involved in the creation of fake University certificates, which he enforces me to help him with. I suggested it and Social Services merely stated that I should 'call the Police'.


    Yes, don't give up, it was a long struggle to get them to help my sister (3rd one on the sibling tree above) when she came to stay with me.  I was living in a semi independant living social care place at the time and she shared my bed with me for almost a year whilst we fought for social services to assist her, again inspite of all the evidence available.

    She got housed and helped in the end, but it really took me saying that I wouldn't help her anymore ( a ploy I assure you) to make them take her in.  Until she was absolutely homeless at 15yrs old (she came to me aged 14)  then they helped.

    You need someone, an adult, who an help argue your rights with these people, an advocate who understands the ins and outs.

    The only reason they finally took me and my eldest sister into care when I was 13, was because my step mother put me in a coma, they needed it to hit that extremity before they would take action.

    I even went to them when my step mum burnt my feet (you try walking on burnt soles) and they didn't help then.....fuck, I mean I got burnt intentionally by my step mother and it still couldn't motivate these bastards to do anything for me?

    It's ridiculous, someone really needs to stand up to these people.

    I didn;t have an adult to help me argue with them, hence them leaving it until I was in a coma, but with an adult things run much smoother.

    Is there anyone in your life, a friends parent perhaps?  maybe phone CAB and ask them if they know of any groups that can provide assistance?

    Make a formal complaint about the way your ase in being handled too.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #49 - May 07, 2009, 06:57 PM

    You should email maryam namazie too, she heads the council of ex muslims and has said to direct any threads like this to contact her. maryamnama​zie@googlem​ail.com

    She might be in a better position to provide help, maybe even know of an adult who can be your advocate.

    Don't give up.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #50 - May 07, 2009, 06:58 PM

    Where's God during all of this - is this all a test?

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #51 - May 07, 2009, 06:59 PM

    Where's God during all of this - is this all a test?


    god fucked off years ago after realising he made something stupider than himself.
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #52 - May 07, 2009, 07:01 PM

    Where's God during all of this - is this all a test?


    god fucked off years ago after realising he made something stupider than himself.


    Hey, as a homosapien I resent that, I like to think of it more as he is the original terminator, and we are the new improved terminators.  cool2  hence he is now obsolete.  Cheesy

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #53 - May 07, 2009, 07:03 PM

    Where's God during all of this - is this all a test?


    god fucked off years ago after realising he made something stupider than himself.


    Hey, as a homosapien I resent that, I like to think of it more as he is the original terminator, and we are the new improved terminators.  cool2  hence he is now obsolete.  Cheesy


    Only something really retarded could've churned out mankind. Its like looking at mis-shaped clay models made by motor-handicapped kids or looking at the handwriting of a monkey. You look me in the monitor and tell me mankind as a race can be considered close to smart.
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #54 - May 07, 2009, 07:06 PM



    Only something really retarded could've churned out mankind. Its like looking at mis-shaped clay models made by motor-handicapped kids or looking at the handwriting of a monkey. You look me in the monitor and tell me mankind as a race can be considered close to smart.


    Well yes actually, I can.  I'm just not ready to give up on my optimistic outlook when it comes to humanity, for all our flaws, we are pretty alright.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #55 - May 07, 2009, 07:12 PM

    Only something really retarded could've churned out mankind. Its like looking at mis-shaped clay models made by motor-handicapped kids or looking at the handwriting of a monkey. You look me in the monitor and tell me mankind as a race can be considered close to smart.


    I agree. As George Carlin (I think it was him) said "If this is the best God can do, I'm not impressed."

    Considering the fact that God is an invention of mankind, instead of the other way around, I see religion as a sign of humanity's insanity and immorality, projected onto an invisible, unprovable wizard in the sky.

    God was created in Man's image. If you think God is stupid, evil, sadistic, irrational and un-believable, then it's only humanity's incapability to be reasonable, compassionate beings that is to blame.

    God doesn't exist outside of the minds of those who believe that he exists. That's all. You could even say that God exists as long as people are willing to die and kill for him. It's the human brain that invents these grandiose, self serving fantasies and then deludes itself into thinking that's really what the universe is like. We are a solipsist, narcissistic, greedy, vicious, irresponsible species. Our brain thinks we are smarter, bigger and more important than the evidence all around us suggests.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #56 - May 07, 2009, 07:16 PM

    Way to paint a broad brush over such a diverse species.  wacko

    Or to merely point out all the bad stuff, forgetting about all the things that are actually good about us.

    I'd rather see "the half glass full" than fall into the "people suck" attitude on this one.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #57 - May 07, 2009, 07:19 PM

    Well yes actually, I can.  I'm just not ready to give up on my optimistic outlook when it comes to humanity, for all our flaws, we are pretty alright.


    I can agree with that too, on small scales, for individual people. There is hope in that we can CHOOSE to transcend our natural capacity to be all those other things in my post above. It's this ability to choose to be more compassionate than we are programmed to be, to be more rational than our emotional selves would want to be, to be more content and humble in the face of our restless need to be the masters of the universe... it's the ability to choose one thing over another that truly defines us. Just because we are part of a warring, vicious species doesn't mean we as individuals have to act in accordance with those aspects of ourselves. We as individuals choose to operate from our base needs or from a more holistic, or "higher" perspective.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #58 - May 07, 2009, 07:23 PM

    Way to paint a broad brush over such a diverse species.  wacko

    Or to merely point out all the bad stuff, forgetting about all the things that are actually good about us.

    I'd rather see "the half glass full" than fall into the "people suck" attitude on this one.




    The glass is both half full and half empty. Smiley

    I just choose to see both sides and live with the paradox honestly than take one view as more right over another. Yes we are brutal but we are also loving, we are greedy and we are compassionate, we are narcissistic and we are communal.

    Denying one half or the other is limiting ourselves... we need to acknowledge and embrace the dark parts in ourselves and others in order to be able to see and deal with the whole picture.

    There's a lot of feel-good stuff out there about how wonderful humans are... it's caused us to practice horrible things that affect each other and other living beings. We must acknowledge that we do have all those bad things in us so that we can choose to exercise the good things in us, by choice, not out of denial.

    As a fellow fan of Xena, it's like the fact that she was a "bad" person, then chose to become a "good" person but only after she learned to acknowledge and integrate the paradox of that.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Why are some Muslims so stubborn?
     Reply #59 - May 07, 2009, 07:24 PM

    I agree, but after consdering both sides, and accepting both sides, I still prefer to enjoy the brighter side.  Wink

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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