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 Topic: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"

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  • from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     OP - May 09, 2009, 05:56 AM

    THE BEGINNING

    When I look back at my short 23 year life, I find it amazing to now how I eventually reached this stage barely half a year back. It wasnt any abuse, torture, beatings etc I (thankfully) did not face, but my own mind and its curiosity I eventually reached this stage in my life journey.

    A little background, I belong to a fairly devout (and persistent) Shia Muslim in Pakistan. My family is among many familys (Shia and Sunnis) that call themselves 'Syed' in that our family claim descent from Muhammad ibn Abdullah via his daughter Fatimah through Ali ibn Abi Talib. So one can imagine how our family's persistent claims etc made us have a rather (falsely) respectful status among Shias and non-Syeds around.

    Growing up in a country and in an era when anti-Shia sectarian terrorism was slowly enveloping Pakistan where dedicated doctors, lawyers, officers, engineers, businessmen, philanthropists, scholars and their families were brutally gunned down (and nowadays killed by suicide bombers during Muharram and Eid namaz) just because they chose to practice their Islam differently from the Sunni majority, and this was the main reason why I took my Shia faith VERY SERIOUSLY.

    It was fun sometimes as a kid when I managed to reveal I was a Shia to school kids that I would be asked questions by innocent school children my age of what I was and why was I different. I cant really remember what I must have said as I was a rather quiet but friendly creature that the kids got along with me really well regardless. They knew they were ignorant about my brand of Islam and they let it be at times out of respect - I went to good schools btw so there was more respect and tolerance among kids.

    Now if I was by chance born in an Ahmediyya Muslim family (a muslim sect declared non-muslim by politicians and rabid Deobandi mullahs back in 1974), I could have been treated with scorn, isolation, and even hate because of what the Ahmedis - despite their dedicated service and honour given to Pakistan before and after Independence - believe in they became the most hated minority in Pakistan. Dr Abdus Salam is one example. Read about him.

    Anyway, I grew up at a time when Shia-hatred was intensifying as a direct repercussion of the CIA/Saudi support to Wahabised Jihadies in the 1980s against Soviet forces in Afghanistan and because the Islamic Revolution in Iran had made Iran from a liberal progressive state into an increasingly rabid Shia theocracy. I took my faith seriously. Thanks to my grandmother - a hard ass woman now in her late 70s but still having the ability to piss anyone off - she told me stories glorifying the Shia imams, the virtues of Ali, the tragedy of Karbala, and the apparent betrayal the Ahl-ul-Bayt faced by the Sahaba after Muhammad died. Of course, I read the Quran and stuff, which is standard practice anyway.

    I loved reading about anything I found interesting. Being in a pre-dominantly military family with my dad and many of my uncles being officers in the Pakistan Army, I was spell-bound by military technology as a kid. Reading about fighter planes, tanks, battles, etc...they were like an obsession  grin12 My dad himself, despite being a strict conservative disciplinarian with a great sense of humour but a fiery temper, was not really the persistent Muslim. He only prayed for Eid or during Ramazan whilst fasting or during some prayers for Muharram on the insistence of my more religious (yet not religiously crazy) mother. I have observed that in my family and extended family, its usually the women that are more religious and more observant than the men. Good for us hehe  grin12

    Me and my younger sisters grew up in a stable peaceful environment, but were shit scared of dad whenever he got angry. Cursive words, the odd slap across the face, and being yelled at...basic operational hazards for us  Cheesy Then again, ironically, it was our mother who was more strict with us. Being a bold lady herself, she rarely lets my dad subdue her and its hilarious how she always manages to quiet him down by being persistent and angry enough to make him feel meek at times. whistling2

    I would say, by Pakistani standards, I had a rather secular yet conservative upbringing. Because of being a minority sect, I was taught valuable lessons of respecting others beliefs and not making others angry because it could harm me in the end. Yes some arguments flew around in school of being a Shia but it was all quizzical stuff and some jokes here there - as I grew older I realised just what kind of hatred and nonsense many Sunni kids are told by rabid mullahs and ignorant parents about Shias. Many being hilariously absurd, others being offensively obscene nonsense almost deliberately made by the mullahs to make people hate Shias and other sects despite being loyal Pakistanis.

    I went to fairly good schools as I said, but it was during my time in Azad Kashmir when my dad was posted there, that I experienced my first shock as a boy of religious abuse. I went to a school where during the Islamiyat lessons, the local maulvi from a Mosque teaching us how to recite the many difficult Surahs and Verses in the Quran. If anyone fucked up, boy or girl, he would grab their hand, and whip the kid on the palm with a foot ruler he carried with him. Now as a 10 year old, I was bat shit scared of what I saw, and when I knew I fucked up...i cried like hell in fear...to the extent that the Maulvi actually took some sympathy and left me alone without getting a rash on my hand. It went on for around 2 years, but I had managed to overcome any troubles and avoided any beatings (i have always been a good yet underachieving student) so I witnessed the thrashings but didnt get any myself.

    It was during my time there, that I saw some of the many sexual perversions I would see eventually among boys and people in general at time. I remember tying my shoelaces once bent over, that a kid in my class (obviously older than me by a few years and a dunce in class) came from behind and 'poked' me with his finger where my rectum was  Huh? I was shocked as a pre-teen, as I knew NOTHING about sex nor was taught anything by it given that sex and sexuality is unjustly a taboo in Pakistani society. I didnt take the joke well after he did it a few times, and once I threatened to report to the principal he and his equally perverted friends begged me not to and left me alone. I was lucky not to be mishandled ever again (I think the boys were at least bisexual lol, because I once saw them in a very compromising position in class when no teacher was around lol).

    I was slowly learning what Pakistani society was all about as I grew and started shedding my innocence.

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #1 - May 09, 2009, 06:18 AM

    THE MIDDLE

    There is no denying that Sunnis are SCARED SHIT of what we do in Muharram during Ashura. The usage of chains and blades, flagellations, spilling of blood in the name of a dead Arab guy named Hussain ibn Ali. This blatant display of religious insanity has made Shias obvious targets from the equally trigger happy Sunnis in Pakistan, esp, since the 1980s. I would often get questions about all this and if I did it myself (I didnt and none in my immediate family did. phew) and I would give a confusing justification that would confuse the kids and they let it be.

    There is no denying that self-flagellation among Shias isnt confined to synchronised beating their chests with their hands. Oh no. Many of my more far off relatives did it and still do it, and always used to tease me that I am not Shia enough if I dont cut myself silly. Thankfully I never did, and neither did my parents allow and thing it is any appropriate cutting oneself and acting like an idiot just to impress others (esp. Shia girls).

    As I shifted around places, and grew older I became somewhat more conservative and more observant Shia than my family at times. Of course my elders loved it me becoming a Shia lunatic  wacko and would often cite my example to my cousins of how be like me. Bah. I once had a little argument with my older cousin sister who strongly objected to me wanting to see ALL WOMEN in hijab and banning co-education for kids in their teens and beyond, as well as being pissed off at girls who didnt cover their heads when Adhaan was heard or some prayers were done. Given I was the docile boy, I couldnt argue with her without making an ass of myself and the fact she was older so I accepted what she said. I was 14 at that time.

    Then when I read more about Shia history myself (I realised my grandma was and is still is a real pain in the ass to deal with at that time lol) I realised the somewhat Sunni bias in the education system dealing with Islamiyat. I tried becoming a Shia rebel using the newly discovered internet and what not...I failed miserably haha. But during my O-Level years I found out that Islamiyat had a Shia Q&A section too...and that got my brain into hyper drive. I borrowed books from my grandma which detailed Shia accounts about Imams etc and read them day and night to answer the questions I suddenly had an interest in answering. It was a mad time in my life and I didnt manage to detect the exaggerated claims written by Shia scholars etc about the Imams' superhuman abilities, wisdom, and 'Masoomiat' because I took them at face value being the Shia that I was grin12

    I still didnt get an A in Islamiyat despite my best efforts, a bad back wrecked my chance and I only got a B  in O-Level Islamiyat Cry  Cheesy I did well in other subjects, got into A-Levels and passed them in flying colours whilst periodically shifting cities every 2 years because of my dad's career as an army officer.

    By time I turned 18, I had qualified for studying BSc from the University of Manchester and I left home for the first time to live study and work alone. Yes I was the momma's boy growing up and a bit of an introvert most of my childhood because I couldnt make any permanent friends due to shifting places every 2-3 years Roll Eyes Internet was a luxury then.

    While I found the chance of studying in UK a great opportunity, of course I was sad and scared of living alone (but my dad accompanied me for my first 2 weeks, so that helped settling down easier for me). I remember being told by my emotional mother a day before the flight to UK that "i have no one in UK except Allah !! no one except Him for protection" and I cried buckets...incidentally I had a phone call from the same cousin sister I had argued with over Hijab etc who had settled in the USA by then saying that this would be the most amazing time of my life. the opportunity i would get learning and living on my own, the friends i would make...THE FREEDOM I WOULD HAVE (and she specifically mentioned that a few times) really cheered me up...and the next day I departed amid tears of leaving my loving mom and sisters.

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #2 - May 09, 2009, 06:36 AM

    Uni LIFE

    So I had settled down fairly well, and went regularly for classes. But because of conservative upbringing I didnt even dare going out to party like deranged first year students in my entire time there Cheesy Many of my Pakistani Muslim friends did and had the time of their lives, I stayed in my room and used my obsessions on fast internet to make me stay put...and it worked  grin12

    I learned a lot about Shia Islam, and conveniently ignored the things I may have found odd then. And given I had become a football fan over the years, internet was a BLESSING for me (and it helped me in my journey). I frequently went to nearby mosques and imambargahs during ramadhan for iftaar (free food woot woot !!!) and some Muharram processions as well in Manchester over the years (free food again woot woot !!!).

    I made friends from all national and religious backgrounds. From Indians, to Pakistanis, to Chinese, to Nigerians, to British, Turkish, Cypriots/Greeks to even the odd American here and there. I mingled with all, and if they loved football, they had a brown guy to discuss the beautiful game with  grin12

    The only drawback ? I was living in an all-male residence which I initially chose out of religious reasons (silly me) and then remained there for 4 years mainly because they gave food to us twice a day during term time (woot woot 3 times in a row grin12 ) Most of my friends, apart from class fellows in my course, were all male. I was still a shy idiot for most of my life anyway ^_^

    The internet was my pal. Be it football, be it information, be it news, be it entertainment, be it free downloads...and be it PORN as well grin12 As a confused ignorant teen, I always felt guilty watching porn and doing the 'stuff' I eventually had to do with my hands lol. But I started caring less of this, since I wasnt harming anyone, then why would Allah punish me for wanking innit ?

    It was also during at that time when the whole Danish cartoon controversy hit the Muslim World like a shit hits the fan...and I was never the same again with I learned, and what I thought and what I believed in. The chaos Pakistani cities was obscene for a few cartoons made by some obscure Danish newspaper. The rioting, destruction of public and private property, loss of life and breadwinners because of rabid Jihadies going amok in Pakistan was ridiculous.

    It didnt make ANY sense for them calling for death and beheading of those just because they ridiculed someone's faith. No matter how seriously one takes it, NO ONE has the right to kill someone just because they dont follow what you follow. I thought this was a trend among Wahabis and Salafists, but I found it consistent with Shias as well as demonstrated by the mullah regime in power in Iran. Their conduct, treatment of women, baha'is, political opponents, freedoms, and activists I realised slowly and I was heartbroken.

    For a regime supposed to be protected by the grace of Allah and by the Hidden Final Imam (12th) and promoting Shia Islam as the most humane form, their conduct was despicable and abhorrent. I had always hated and still hate Saudi Arabia for being Wahabis, funding the Taliban, and killing Shias and I had always backed the Islamic regime in Iran...until I too learned of their abuse using the internet (and weirdly enough on an Iranian football forum, since I follow football in Asia a lot).

    From being a pan-Shia revivalist, I changed my stance into an increasingly secular stance which made more sense than blind faith and insistence on blindly following ambiguous ayats and hadith written by a primitive mindset in the Arab desert.

    and then I discovered George Carlin in late 2007....

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #3 - May 09, 2009, 07:24 AM

    THE INTERNET & MR GEORGE CARLIN



    I stumbled on Mr Carlin's infamous anti-religious stand up routine he did when I was watching the viral phenomena that is 'Zeitgeist: The Movie'. Given I was always a nutter for conspiracy theories and always questioned the 9/11 and 7/7 attacks and the confusing disinformation the governments said about these attacks, I found the likes of Alex Jones VERY VERY appealing. It was during at this phase of my life, of uncovering the truth about many things, that whilst watching stuff about Freemasons, the Illuminati and secret societies, that I stumbled upon Zeitgeist and George Carlin. The Christ myth, despite the inaccurate and inconsistent stuff quoted about the myth in the movie, was very impressive. I wasnt all to pleased with Carlin's act but he did make a lot of sense when he said "religion takes billions of dollars each year, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more".

    My intense hatred of the clerical establishment over the years whilst still a student in Manchester took its toll, and I was hooked on George Carlin. I saw most of his standup acts in the 1990s and 2000s and I was never the same person again. He made a lot of sense and said the truth as angry man who actually gave a damn. In 2008, I saw Zeitgeist: Addendum and that too moved me a lot. The questions I had were too powerful for religion to answer and too deadly for the clerics to allow. Pat Condell's youtube channel also made my brain go hyper.

    Using the internet, I stumbled upon many great series on science and technology (esp. space travel and the planets) on youtube by a member named Zuke696. I saw the anti-creationist videos by thunderf00t and AronRa and I was moved...the wall around me slowly started to shatter and break revealing the world as it is and how minuscule we as a species we are despite our claims of being "Ashraf-ul-Makhlooqat"...meh.

    Allah is a dick if he decides to give just ONE species on ONE planet in ONE solar system in ONE galaxy among the ZILLIONS out there special treatment.  Not so fair is He for the 98% of all species that ever lived on Earth that are now extinct ? The fact that if Earth's 4.5 billion year age was condensed into a 24 hour period, humans have only existed in the last TWO SECONDS of that 24 hour period on Earth. When I read about that, I was convinced, religion is all man-made bullshit just to make us feel good about of ourselves, belief in nonsense, and being controlled by the establishment.

    Enough was Enough. I even made an account back in October 2008 on youtube named AtheistPakistani to see how the cyber world would react to my name. From encouraging support from all freethinkers, to threats of beheadings by teenage cyber jihadies, to accusations I was an Indian posing as a Pakistani, to applause from fellow Pakistani atheists and agnostics...yeap I got it all. dance

    Truth be told, I wasnt an Atheist when I made that account back then, and it was merely an experiment I did at a time when I was busy looking at answers religion could not offer. It eventually became my own identity because I realised what I implied I could become, I became. In fact, my more football centric youtube channel ----- is used less and less by me ^_^

    If someone had asked me about Atheism merely a few years back, I would have strongly reacted in the negative against such a lack of belief. The self-righteous hypocrisy, bullshit, nonsense, sexism, homophobia, ignorance, and violence was becoming to really annoy me - stuff which I once thought was good as a kid -_-

    But because of lack of money in my final few months in university, I fasted in Ramadhan, had Iftaar there, attended Muharram majalis (the exaggerations they say are hilarious despite the human element in that story !!!), and took the food they distributed. Yes I was a hypocrite  grin12 But it was one time, my final few days in Manchester, after I had attended a Muharram Majlis and was coming back home with some rice in hand for food, that I stopped on the way. Looked at myself, and looked at the sky to see the stars and the moon (I wasnt wearing my glasses so they didnt look that clear -_-) smiled to myself and said "I guess I am an Atheist now. A secular humanist perhaps. Sorry Allah, I dont need you any more and you never needed me anyway. You can keep your bigoted Abrahamic beliefs for I have had it with you and your existence which is as good as that of The Big Bad Wolf and the Giant from Jack & The Beanstalk".

    I smiled and walked home, had food, and watched porn  dance

    But by the time I had finished Uni a few days later, I was coming back home in January 2009 after finishing my MPhil degree too since I couldnt get a job because of recession.

    I wondered how my family would react...hmmm.....

    [TO BE CONTINUED]

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #4 - May 09, 2009, 07:46 AM

    Cool story, man.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #5 - May 09, 2009, 08:04 AM

    Interesting Suprah, thanks for sharing. 

    Quote from: Suprah
    I smiled and walked home, had food, and watched porn


    And why not?   dance

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #6 - May 09, 2009, 08:35 AM

    Cursive words...

    Should be curse words, cursive is handwriting where the letters are connected.

    Interesting story  Afro

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #7 - May 09, 2009, 08:53 AM

    Fascinating read, Suprah  Afro thank you so much for sharing - and I look forward to more Smiley

    I was one of those Muslims who always worked hard for unity amongst Sunni and Shia. From when I was at university right through to when I was a teacher at an Islamic School (where about 10% of our kids were Shia.)

    It always hurt me that Muslims should be divided. It was like I felt; "Hey we all believe in the word of God - how come we can't all get along?" lol

    Then I realised it was all bollox lol  grin12
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #8 - May 09, 2009, 09:05 AM

    Thanks for sharing your story Suprah! Smiley

    Its one of the best ex Muslim testimonies I've read out here.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #9 - May 09, 2009, 09:41 AM

    REVELATION, RESENTMENT, & ACCEPTANCE

    So finally when I boarded the plane and headed back to Pakistan in January after completing my MPhil, I was fairly calm and level headed. I initially didnt plan to reveal my change in ideals and beliefs for fear of making my family panic and stuff. I thought it was best to keep it low, but I said "Ah fuck it...I'm gonna tell !!".

    There was a reason for me saying that.

    Ever since my dad retired from the army in mid 2005, my family had shifted back to our home town in the centre of the country, but because dad hadnt really taken the opportunity of making our own house seriously we decided to live next door at our uncle's rather large house which initially housed MANY members of our extended family a little over a decade a back. The house was all vacant anyway apart from my uncle's own family, his kids, my fiery grandma, and a creepy uncle of my parents who just didnt want to leave to his son's place (an army officer himself) after spending most of his years at the same place.

    So were welcomed with open arms and stayed. Dad tried his hand in tending to our lands outside the city as well starting his own small business here and there. 4 years to that day, we are still living at our uncle's place, still waiting for our house to be built, still resentful and still angry at ourselves for some bad business decisions, intimidated by relatives over the years, not enough profit and being sarcastically mocked at times.

    This has made my dad a shell of his former proud fiery self. Mom too has had the same transformation, my two sisters as well but their rebellious spirit is still inside them and they arent giving up. One is in uni already in the same city (to her own disgust) while the other looks set to go a better place and study there as soon as she finishes A-Level exams next month and the result is released in a few months.

    I figured my change of thought would be taken very coolly by the folks, with some resentment of course, but they wont react like mad before being 'domesticated' and humiliated living at uncle's place (which technically we also have a right to, given this was shared land of our grandparents...but you know how dominant elders can be).

    and I was right.

    a few days after I had landed, family mentioned I had changed in looks etc. I said "I have also gone through a spiritual journey as well and have also changed what I know of in this world". That line confused some, amused some, and concerned some. Some called it a brave journey, others called it just a phase in my life grin12

    My uncle, who fancies himself as a learned intellectual of sorts despite his attitude and habits towards us, took great interest in what I had told him off. As I said that in my extended family, its the women who are usually more religious while men do the namaz etc stuff on occasions, he was really pleased at my usage of logic, reason, critical thinking, and a realisation of what is religion and what does it do and the harm it brings. His kids took interest as well, and one of them was pissed off at what she read in Surah Nisa: 34  grin12

    I explained that this was an ideal example of bedouin male chauvinism and fear of women that makes them allow us to beat our wives if they 'disobey' us. My sisters initially didnt take my atheism well, they actually said that I was gonna cause myself a lot of trouble if I wasnt careful esp. in a place like Pakistan, and esp. in a city as conservative as Multan.

    Soon enough I had a nice hearty chat with my dad about this, and I explained that how come all these pre-Muhammad Abrahamic prophets seem more like mythical tales rather than historical figures since there is NO archaeological or historical evidence that boys like Ibrahim, Issa, Adam, Musa, Salman etc even existed. Metaphors and myths. Nothing else. This also included my critical analysis of Quranic inconsistencies and reliance on mullahs to explain what is Islam. He was pleased, he hated religious bullshit and inconsistencies himself since he was a kid, but kept his faith to himself (he still is and calls himself a Shia) but advised me to watch what I say.

    In a nice late night chat with sisters later on, they were thrilled at the explanations I gave, and said "this is the most coolest thing you have done fatso"  grin12 bless them. both heavily criticised our old beliefs and superstitions but they still want to believe in something and are content with being skeptic Shias.

    The biggest test I felt was telling my mom, and soon enough she asked me herself when dad was around. I dug deep, and let it rip (in a gentle and meaningful tone of course) and she was shocked Cheesy Not crazy shocked but she got scared that these things may land me into trouble (her own younger brother is a staunchly secular and all most non practising but well learned Shia...and the coolest uncle I have, but even he isnt an atheist like me ^_^).

    Although she agreed with the observations I gave, and bear in mind I didnt do any character assassinations or diss someone like many ex-Muslims do elsewhere (it ruins your argument when you call names) and I was cool calculated and rational with my arguments. But eventually she would catch me saying well there should be a god who is running this world and earth...i said sorry god has yet to show any evidence which PROVES of his existence and there is no god like the god in the Abrahamic books of violence and sexual perversions.

    She even said that she will bring my faith back by sending me to a madrassa, and started saying that "is this why we sent you to England to study ??" and my dad also repeated the same. I snapped back saying I have learned a lot of things and sorry you are too scared to understand or even accept them. She used to insist I do namaz etc to please her, I did once but I'm not doing it again. Useless bowing and stuff. Meh. (decent exercise I must admit though) and she now accepts she cant change me. She always knew I had more knowledge about Islam and knows I get pissed off whenever she mentions anything superstitious or any religious faggotry too absurd to accept grin12

    I dont plan to tell my grandma out of my own resentment towards her mean nature and the fact she is more or less ignorant about EVERYTHING apart from nonsense written in shia books and urdu magazines. Her opinion doesnt matter and it never will.

    I do plan to slowly tell my other cousins what I am when they come and visit us, but at the moment I just finished lecturing a semester at my local university where I have had smart (but wise) discussions with my fellow students in their spare time.

    I will discuss them later on Smiley

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #10 - May 10, 2009, 06:25 AM

    Cursive words...

    Should be curse words, cursive is handwriting where the letters are connected.

    Interesting story  Afro

    Thanks for notifying me of my error  Tongue

    Fascinating read, Suprah  Afro thank you so much for sharing - and I look forward to more Smiley

    I was one of those Muslims who always worked hard for unity amongst Sunni and Shia. From when I was at university right through to when I was a teacher at an Islamic School (where about 10% of our kids were Shia.)

    It always hurt me that Muslims should be divided. It was like I felt; "Hey we all believe in the word of God - how come we can't all get along?" lol

    Then I realised it was all bollox lol  grin12

    same shit. different colour  grin12

    Thanks for sharing your story Suprah! Smiley

    Its one of the best ex Muslim testimonies I've read out here.

    thank you sweetie  Smiley

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #11 - May 10, 2009, 06:59 AM

    Thanks for notifying me of my error  Tongue

    You have a few more, want me to point them out for you grin12.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #12 - May 10, 2009, 07:50 AM

    Thanks for notifying me of my error  Tongue

    You have a few more, want me to point them out for you grin12.

     False hadith.

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #13 - May 10, 2009, 09:58 AM

    Enjoyed your story, thanks - you're a courageous fellow, and must have been very patient when explaining your apostacy to your family.  My problem is I normally lose my rag & patience half-way through the discussion, and then I cock the whole discussion up from that point.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #14 - May 11, 2009, 03:49 AM

    Enjoyed your story, thanks - you're a courageous fellow, and must have been very patient when explaining your apostacy to your family.  My problem is I normally lose my rag & patience half-way through the discussion, and then I cock the whole discussion up from that point.

    Well then that's cause you're an idiot mate grin12 Joking Joking  Cheesy sorry  Cry

    If its one thing I really enjoy (food, football, wikipedia, and porn aside) is using whatever intellect capacity I have to get my rational and logical points across to counter any false and exaggerated claims of belief etc.

    As I said, I am currently a part time lecturer at my home town's University (teaching students easily older than me...and they call me 'Sir' all the time which is epic Cheesy ) and in my spare time there I tend to discuss mind-enriching stuff with my students who seem VERY eager and impressed and moved with what I say.

    I always say to them that "Never be afraid of the truth. Whether it questions your ideological, social, economic, religious, ethnic, national, familial values etc...never be scared of the truth if it is against what you stand for. Attain truth because the Truth Sets You Free from all prejudices, ignorance, bullshit, and nonsense force fed to you by society, by family, and by the establishment."

    Bear in mind, I have yet to tell my friends and others outside my family about my Atheism (Secular Humanism) because that will be another challenge. But I will wait for the right opportunity telling the people Smiley

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #15 - May 11, 2009, 06:33 AM

    very nice story Suprah, could not stop jumping from 1 section to another and I think I am going to go over it again.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #16 - May 11, 2009, 08:27 AM

    Attain truth because the Truth Sets You Free from all prejudices, ignorance, bullshit, and nonsense force fed to you by society, by family, and by the establishment."

    I like that..

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #17 - May 11, 2009, 09:02 AM

    Great story Suprah Smiley I hope my family reacts as well to my apostasy but I doubt that will be the case.
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #18 - May 11, 2009, 09:24 AM

    Great story Suprah Smiley I hope my family reacts as well to my apostasy but I doubt that will be the case.

    They dont have the right to know ANYTHING unless you want to tell them yourself sweetie  Wink

    It can wait, at least my parents were relatively tolerant, educated, and secular enough to at least accept my change despite not agreeing with me (and being scared of the unknown). But I feel you should keep it to yourself, try making a name for yourself as an independent human, and then when they have NO control on your life....pork it out  piggy

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #19 - May 11, 2009, 09:34 AM

    Great story Suprah Smiley I hope my family reacts as well to my apostasy but I doubt that will be the case.

    They dont have the right to know ANYTHING unless you want to tell them yourself sweetie  Wink

    It can wait, at least my parents were relatively tolerant, educated, and secular enough to at least accept my change despite not agreeing with me (and being scared of the unknown). But I feel you should keep it to yourself, try making a name for yourself as an independent human, and then when they have NO control on your life....pork it out  piggy

    I have a bf so it's kind of necessary for me to tell them and avoid an arranged marriage Wink My dad partially knows about it already, I told him I'm agnostic and we had a long debate (which he lost spectacularly). I told him I will keep researching. I'll have to come out to him fully sometime. He's taken it quite well though but I'm not sure how others may take it.
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #20 - May 11, 2009, 09:45 AM

    You definitely will have to tell your parents someday about your boyfriend, but make sure it is done appropriately and you dont get harmed in any way possible. Too many times I have heard of even tolerant educated parents freaking out, and forcibly marrying their daughters off to some relative from Mirpur so that more deyhatis come into UK all time.

    Now you are an adult, and theoretically your parents now have NO right to control your destiny. I'm a shy bugger stuck in Pakistan since January (though I hope I can get work back in UK soon) -_- so I will probably be content with arranged marriage when time comes in like 5-6 years from now (my mom hates the idea of marrying people in their early 20s) and since I am the ONLY son...I expect them to do their job and do it well.

    But I dont know, maybe if I come back to UK and can find someone I can truly connect and get along irrespective of nationality and religion (as long as she isnt a religious bigot lol) then I can get some beige babies coming out haha dance

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #21 - May 11, 2009, 05:19 PM

    very nice story Suprah, could not stop jumping from 1 section to another and I think I am going to go over it again.

    Thank you for the compliment mate Smiley Always a pleasure giving someone something to read about Smiley

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #22 - May 12, 2009, 10:45 AM

    You definitely will have to tell your parents someday about your boyfriend, but make sure it is done appropriately and you dont get harmed in any way possible. Too many times I have heard of even tolerant educated parents freaking out, and forcibly marrying their daughters off to some relative from Mirpur so that more deyhatis come into UK all time.

    Now you are an adult, and theoretically your parents now have NO right to control your destiny. I'm a shy bugger stuck in Pakistan since January (though I hope I can get work back in UK soon) -_- so I will probably be content with arranged marriage when time comes in like 5-6 years from now (my mom hates the idea of marrying people in their early 20s) and since I am the ONLY son...I expect them to do their job and do it well.

    But I dont know, maybe if I come back to UK and can find someone I can truly connect and get along irrespective of nationality and religion (as long as she isnt a religious bigot lol) then I can get some beige babies coming out haha dance

    Lol funnily enough I was born in Mirpur Tongue

    I honestly cant see my family dragging me off to Pakistan, my dad is a pretty nice man Smiley He may stop talking to me but he has told me before that he wants to maintain a good relationship with his kids and I know he meant that.
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #23 - May 12, 2009, 11:16 AM

    You Mirpuris.... finmad

     Cheesy grin12

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #24 - May 12, 2009, 12:20 PM

    You Mirpuris.... finmad

     Cheesy grin12

    Tongue

    I'm going back there this summer for 3 weeks, what fun :(
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #25 - May 12, 2009, 12:23 PM


    [TO BE CONTINUED]


    Thats right.

    In Hell.

    He gave us the Beginning.

    He gave us the Middle.

    He could not give us his End.

    The poor guy doesnt know.

    When you drop the torch, you will be in darkness. Your End is in Hell.

    Sorry, these are not my rules. I didnt make them.

    You mess up, your plane will land in the Fire.

    Nothing can save you.


    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #26 - May 12, 2009, 12:24 PM


    [TO BE CONTINUED]


    Thats right.

    In Hell.

    He gave us the Beginning.

    He gave us the Middle.

    He could not give us the End.

    The poor guys doesnt know.

    When you drop the torch, you are in darkness.

    His End is in Hell.

    Sorry dude, these are not my rules. I didnt make them.

    You mess up, your plane will land in the Fire.




    Not if I'm the pilot.  cool2

    Ladies and gentleman, welcome aboard flight 202, the time is 8:25 and we will be departing non stop to Pancake land. There will be many in flight refreshments available, including an unlimited supply of pancakes for every passenger.
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #27 - May 12, 2009, 12:29 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGPXDZuLkQ4

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #28 - May 13, 2009, 05:25 AM

    You Mirpuris.... finmad

     Cheesy grin12

    Tongue

    I'm going back there this summer for 3 weeks, what fun :(

    Be careful when you get there, if you know what I mean sweetie  Wink

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: from saying "Ali'yun wali'ullah" to "La ilaha"
     Reply #29 - May 13, 2009, 05:27 AM



    Thats right.

    In Hell.

    He gave us the Beginning.

    He gave us the Middle.

    He could not give us his End.

    The poor guy doesnt know.

    When you drop the torch, you will be in darkness. Your End is in Hell.

    Sorry, these are not my rules. I didnt make them.

    You mess up, your plane will land in the Fire.

    Nothing can save you.




    I've heard better nursery rhymes and Aesop's Fables than that.

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
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