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Theme Changer

 Topic: People are fucking assholes!

 (Read 12681 times)
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  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #30 - May 27, 2009, 08:11 AM

    I don't have time to read all of this right now but from a brief reading of the discussion on the student forum I'd say you went overboard, Peru. Frankly that guy doesn't seem to mean what you want him to mean.

    Actually he does, we're nearly finished discussing this and he is repeating the same thing and another person is defending him. They meant exactly what I thought they meant. According to them by signing the marriage contract you are consenting to allowing your husband to coerce you into sex when you don't want it. It's an ingenious way of allowing rape, rather than forcing yourself on to her you use religion to force her to say yes. Consent under coercion is NOT consent yet they seem to think it's ok in this case. What fucked up people! And to think I used to respect the person who is current defending him. I've lost almost all respect for the muslims on that forum now.

    I think we are guilty of taking this too far now,  this is a beautiful example of a closed group thinking.  Wink

    Nikah grants permission for sex, not rape!

    It does give permission to rape but it makes it look like consent and that is what makes it so sick!
  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #31 - May 27, 2009, 08:29 AM

    How many women are aware what they are signing up for in a marriage?
  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #32 - May 27, 2009, 12:27 PM

    I don't have time to read all of this right now but from a brief reading of the discussion on the student forum I'd say you went overboard, Peru. Frankly that guy doesn't seem to mean what you want him to mean.


    Well I thought PS had a very good point  Huh?

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #33 - May 27, 2009, 12:48 PM

    How many women are aware what they are signing up for in a marriage?


    You are missing the point, everyone knows Nikah means intercourse. That is its whole purpose, why do you think if you just get nikah done its fine to have sex with that woman? By the way women clearly know this, the other women tell them, the mother tells them. You really have to be living on Mars or something if you did not know nikah means a woman is giving her body in sex to the husband, why do you think woman ask for mahr? she agrees to letting the husband have a sexual right over her body, hence why they ask for mhar!
  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #34 - May 27, 2009, 01:00 PM

    Book 11, Number 2121:

        Narrated A man from the Companion of the Prophet:

        Muhammad ibn AbdurRahman ibn Thawban reported on the authority of a man from the Companions of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him): When Ali married Fatimah, daughter of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), he intended to have intercourse with her. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) prohibited him to do so until he gave her something. Ali said: I have nothing with me, Apostle of Allah. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Give her your coat of mail. So he gave her his coat of mail, and then cohabited with her.


    Book 11, Number 2126:

        Narrated Basrah:

        A man from the Ansar called Basrah said: I married a virgin woman in her veil. When I entered upon her, I found her pregnant. (I mentioned this to the Prophet). The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: She will get the dower, for you made her vagina lawful for you. The child will be your slave. When she has begotten (a child), flog her (according to the version of al-Hasan). The version of Ibn AbusSari has: You people, flog her, or said: inflict hard punishment on him.


    Book 11, Number 2138:

        Narrated Mu'awiyah ibn Haydah:

        I said: Apostle of Allah, how should we approach our wives and how should we leave them? He replied: Approach your tilth when or how you will, give her (your wife) food when you take food, clothe when you clothe yourself, do not revile her face, and do not beat her.

    Book 11, Number 2141:

        Narrated Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab:

        Iyas ibn Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) as saying: Do not beat Allah's handmaidens, but when Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them. Then many women came round the family of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) complaining against their husbands. So the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Many women have gone round Muhammad's family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you.


    Book 11, Number 2142:

        Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab:

        The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.


    Book 11, Number 2163:

        Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:

        The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said about a man who has sexual intercourse with a menstruating woman: He should give one or half dinar as sadaqah.


    Book 11, Number 2166:

        Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri:

        A man said: Apostle of Allah, I have a slave-girl and I withdraw the penis from her (while having intercourse), and I dislike that she becomes pregnant. I intend (by intercourse) what the men intend by it.

        The Jews say that withdrawing the penis (azl) is burying the living girls on a small scale. He (the Prophet) said: The Jews told a lie. If Allah intends to create it, you cannot turn it away.




  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #35 - May 27, 2009, 01:40 PM

    How many women are aware what they are signing up for in a marriage?


    You are missing the point, everyone knows Nikah means intercourse. That is its whole purpose, why do you think if you just get nikah done its fine to have sex with that woman? By the way women clearly know this, the other women tell them, the mother tells them. You really have to be living on Mars or something if you did not know nikah means a woman is giving her body in sex to the husband, why do you think woman ask for mahr? she agrees to letting the husband have a sexual right over her body, hence why they ask for mhar!


    Thanks for telling me which planet I live on, Tut. I knew I'd find out one day.

     spacecraft

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #36 - May 27, 2009, 02:03 PM

    Good point Tut. What shit marriage. I just told one of the muslims that it felt more like long term prostitution, she didn't really retaliate to that.
  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #37 - May 27, 2009, 02:10 PM

    Good point Tut. What shit marriage. I just told one of the muslims that it felt more like long term prostitution, she didn't really retaliate to that.


    So, do all the Muslims on this site you go on think of marriage in this way that King Tut has just enlightened us (me anyway) with?

    I thought Tut was joking...

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #38 - May 27, 2009, 02:15 PM

    Look what I stumbled accross.

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/3426372?cookieSet=1

    "The Dark Consequences of Marital Rape"

    You can't get a much more objective website than that, either.

    For some reason it says in the corner: "Your access to JSTOR provided by University of Reading"

    I don't know if that means you can't go on it unless your a member of the university or whether it is just a coincidence.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #39 - May 27, 2009, 02:16 PM

    Good point Tut. What shit marriage. I just told one of the muslims that it felt more like long term prostitution, she didn't really retaliate to that.


    So, do all the Muslims on this site you go on think of marriage in this way that King Tut has just enlightened us (me anyway) with?

    I thought Tut was joking...

    That's why I was asking. Since I'm not married I'm not sure but the muslim I was debating with said it was written in the contract. I know of many muslims who are unaware of this and lets not forget the women in Afghanistan who opposed this law. Do people who get married know exactly what they are signing up for or are they given a bizarre interpretation? There are many muslims who know bugger all about their religion.
  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #40 - May 27, 2009, 02:48 PM

    Good point Tut. What shit marriage. I just told one of the muslims that it felt more like long term prostitution, she didn't really retaliate to that.


    So, do all the Muslims on this site you go on think of marriage in this way that King Tut has just enlightened us (me anyway) with?

    I thought Tut was joking...

    That's why I was asking. Since I'm not married I'm not sure but the muslim I was debating with said it was written in the contract. I know of many muslims who are unaware of this and lets not forget the women in Afghanistan who opposed this law. Do people who get married know exactly what they are signing up for or are they given a bizarre interpretation? There are many muslims who know bugger all about their religion.


    What I'm asking is, these Muslims who you are talking about on this website you go on, you talk about them like they all think there is no such thing as marital rape. So is that true then? All the Muslims there think there is no such thing as marital rape and that a husband can have sex when he wants with his wife?

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #41 - May 27, 2009, 02:49 PM

    I'm sure most Muslim women know of Hadiths in which the angels curse the woman who refuses to have sex with her husband. As Muslim women are taught that it is the duty of a Muslim women to fulfil the desires of their husbands with the threat of him sleeping with other women if she does not, most probably just accept it. As KT pointed out, the Nikah is agreement by the woman to please her husband and this includes having sex on his terms; it seems that the man has the right to demand sex when he wants to.

    I find that most Muslim women know that Islamically it is forbidden for them to refuse to have sex with their husbands and still get married with the truth that their husbands are reasonable and decent and will not demand sex all the time. Personally, I think the fact that a Muslim husband may treat his wife like a princess is beside the point as the fact remains that he has the RIGHT over you in majority of areas. This point is crucial and shouldn't be ignored.
  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #42 - May 27, 2009, 02:52 PM

    James, a classic argument for why there is no such thing as marital rape according to Islam is as follows: if you do not have a particular right then nobody can violate it because you never had it to start with. So therefore, as a Muslim wife does not have the right to refuse her husband, the concept of marital rape does not exist. To say it does indicates that the Muslim wife has rights, by Islam, to refuse her husband.


  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #43 - May 27, 2009, 02:56 PM

    I've just read that article I posted. Here it is again:

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/3426372?cookieSet=1

    Very interesting. It is medical research into the effects of marital rape. It's only short too. And it mentions a bit about marriage within the context of law aswell, and it seems I really have been living on Mars all my life; it seems the roots of the institution we call marriage really was a simple contract of prostitution. Until 29 years ago in America, not one of all of its states outlawed marital rape. Now we have the problem of trying to fit that in with our common conception of the family unit being the building blocks of society.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #44 - May 27, 2009, 03:00 PM

    What I'm asking is, these Muslims who you are talking about on this website you go on, you talk about them like they all think there is no such thing as marital rape. So is that true then? All the Muslims there think there is no such thing as marital rape and that a husband can have sex when he wants with his wife?

    Some do and some don't. The educated (non-extreme) ones will state that marital rape is wrong (the prophet said not to approach your wife like an animal) but the wife in turn does not have the right to say no. Ideally this means there is no such thing as marital rape but we all know this is never the case. Some extreme ones will argue that forced sex is not a sin but Islam prefers it if you didn't do that (the whole treat your wife nice and that). I just read a fatwa an hour ago saying this :\ There's also the assholes who say it is ok to rape your wife and that it isn't actually rape because you cannot rape your wife.

    The people I am talking seem to think it is ok to coerce your wife into sex even if she doesn't want it, they cant seem to get into their heads that this is rape.
  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #45 - May 27, 2009, 03:02 PM

    James, a classic argument for why there is no such thing as marital rape according to Islam is as follows: if you do not have a particular right then nobody can violate it because you never had it to start with. So therefore, as a Muslim wife does not have the right to refuse her husband, the concept of marital rape does not exist. To say it does indicates that the Muslim wife has rights, by Islam, to refuse her husband.





    That is, if you assume, that the definition of rape is to have sex with someone against their right. However, the overwhelming majority of people do not accept this definition. They instead think of rape as sex against their will. I think the first step towards building a bridge of understanding with these Muslims is to first establish with them that they in fact believe that rape in marriage is permissable, not that they don't believe it is logically possible.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #46 - May 27, 2009, 03:07 PM

    Basically, your wife's an exclusive prostitute. Moreover, if a Muslim man gives this wife the 3rd talaak, (i.e. talaak, talaak, talaak) then if he wants to take her back, then she has to have sex with another man. Imagine you are drunk and talaak your wife, its a mistake, now the only way you can have your wife back is if she goes and fuck another man! damn. And worst of all you can't even watch.
  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #47 - May 27, 2009, 03:09 PM

    I find that most Muslim women know that Islamically it is forbidden for them to refuse to have sex with their husbands and still get married with the truth that their husbands are reasonable and decent and will not demand sex all the time. Personally, I think the fact that a Muslim husband may treat his wife like a princess is beside the point as the fact remains that he has the RIGHT over you in majority of areas. This point is crucial and shouldn't be ignored.


    It's like arguing that if you have a dictator who is good then there is no reason to change the method of rule. What the subjects of the dictator should be worrying about is the character of the next person to replace him/her!

    Equally, we cannot, unless we choose to be naive, trust that all men who enter marriage will be good men who will treat their wives well. What about the next marriage? What kind of man will enter into that one?

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #48 - May 27, 2009, 03:09 PM

    James, a classic argument for why there is no such thing as marital rape according to Islam is as follows: if you do not have a particular right then nobody can violate it because you never had it to start with. So therefore, as a Muslim wife does not have the right to refuse her husband, the concept of marital rape does not exist. To say it does indicates that the Muslim wife has rights, by Islam, to refuse her husband.





    That is, if you assume, that the definition of rape is to have sex with someone against their right. However, the overwhelming majority of people do not accept this definition. They instead think of rape as sex against their will. I think the first step towards building a bridge of understanding with these Muslims is to first establish with them that they in fact believe that rape in marriage is permissable, not that they don't believe it is logically possible.

    I already tried that approach, he just said she agreed to this when she signed the nikah. How do you retaliate to that?
  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #49 - May 27, 2009, 03:10 PM

    Basically, your wife's an exclusive prostitute. Moreover, if a Muslim man gives this wife the 3rd talaak, (i.e. talaak, talaak, talaak) then if he wants to take her back, then she has to have sex with another man. Imagine you are drunk and talaak your wife, its a mistake, now the only way you can have your wife back is if she goes and fuck another man! damn. And worst of all you can't even watch.


    It seems Muhammad's policies were fantastically badly thought out.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #50 - May 27, 2009, 03:12 PM

    Basically, your wife's an exclusive prostitute. Moreover, if a Muslim man gives this wife the 3rd talaak, (i.e. talaak, talaak, talaak) then if he wants to take her back, then she has to have sex with another man. Imagine you are drunk and talaak your wife, its a mistake, now the only way you can have your wife back is if she goes and fuck another man! damn. And worst of all you can't even watch.


    It seems Muhammad's policies were fantastically badly thought out.

    Or very well thought depending on how you look at it  yes
  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #51 - May 27, 2009, 03:13 PM

    PeruvianSkies,
    this was my reply:



    What's the difference between not giving your consent to do something and not wanting to do something?
    I wish Muslims would stop redefining rape and just admit that they believe rape is permissable in marriage.

    And what does it say about the husband if he has to write into the contract that he can have sex with his wife whenever he wants to?

    If it is a default contract made by the state, what does it say about the state?


    Both sign to a contract to have sex, the nikah is basically giving consent to having sex. How can you sign a contract and then disregard it? it is criminal under any law.


    But what is it doing in the contract anyway?

    It's like when I was dealing with my estate agent about a property I want to rent next year, I had a problem with something in the contract and I wanted him to change it. No one around me could understand my actions, they were like "but that's the contract!"

    No it isn't... not yet anyway. You can think about a contract and change it before you sign it. So why is this clause in the nikah contract in the first place?


    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #52 - May 27, 2009, 03:33 PM

    Basically, your wife's an exclusive prostitute. Moreover, if a Muslim man gives this wife the 3rd talaak, (i.e. talaak, talaak, talaak) then if he wants to take her back, then she has to have sex with another man. Imagine you are drunk and talaak your wife, its a mistake, now the only way you can have your wife back is if she goes and fuck another man! damn. And worst of all you can't even watch.


    It seems Muhammad's policies were fantastically badly thought out.

    Or very well thought depending on how you look at it  yes


    Well, I'm working from the assumption that Muhammad did want to keep order in society. So I understand why he set up the law so that the woman you divorce would have to have sex with another man before you re-marry her. Look at it like this. In Islam, being indesicive is looked down upon a great deal. Changing your mind a lot is suppose to be a symptom of stupidity (there is a hadeeth to back this up). So the longer it takes to change your mind about something, the less stupid your supposed to be. We don't want a nation of stupid idiots, we want a nation of clever, reasonable people. If your actually a stupid idiot, it is still better to copy what the clever, reasonable people would do, so that maybe you would become reasonable yourself, in time. So if you were to divorce your wife in a fit of drunkedness or rage, even if it was a stupid mistake, you should not be able to change your mind immediately and re-marry her. Indeed, what if it was to happen again and again and again? Now that really would be stupid. So it is better if you put on the cloak of a reasonable man and leave some time between the divorce and re-marrying that person. But how long for? Muhammad doesn't do things by half. For him, it's got to be a very long time, so long that potentially you will be dead before you are able to re-marry her, which is useless, but it would serve you right anyway. Anyway, how are we going to measure a 'very long time'? Well, how about if that woman was to marry another man? Assuming the woman isn't stupid, it would take her a while to assess the pros and cons and decide to go through with a marriage to another man. Now, ideally, the marriage will last forever. In such a case, the previous husband will be getting his just desert. However, as we know, divorces happen. Hopefully not too quickly after marriage though; that would show indecisiveness, and that's stupid. So if a divorce was to occur, then it would only happen a long time after the marriage. Well, let's say that after such a long wait, if the previous husband hasn't been fully satisfied yet (i.e. having 4 wives) then such a poor man should be forgiven by now and entitled to marry the woman he divorced all them years ago, should she want to marry him again, too. So yeah, when Muhammad says you have to wait until your ex-wife has married somebody else, had sex with them, and then divorces him, until you can get back with her, it is really just another way of saying, you have to wait a bloody long time now either as punishment or to prove that your decision to divorce her was well-informed!

    Now, it sounds like a magnificent idea. But Muhammad was a bit stupid, as it happens, and he didn't really see the very obvious loophole in this god-awful piece of law, which can easily be argued to contribute to social corruption and further immorality.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #53 - May 27, 2009, 03:54 PM

    Why not you have to wait before you can re-marry her, why does she have to get married to another man, then get a talaak from him before you can re-marry her?

    Say you come home drunk talaak your wife, then you make up, but she cannot sleep with you, until she sleeps with another man, gets a talaak from him and then comes back to you, you have to give up your wife to another man.
  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #54 - May 27, 2009, 04:15 PM

    Maybe it serves as a reminder that divorce shouldn't be treated lightly.
  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #55 - May 28, 2009, 10:21 AM

    PeruvianSkies,
    this was my reply:
    But what is it doing in the contract anyway?

    It's like when I was dealing with my estate agent about a property I want to rent next year, I had a problem with something in the contract and I wanted him to change it. No one around me could understand my actions, they were like "but that's the contract!"

    No it isn't... not yet anyway. You can think about a contract and change it before you sign it. So why is this clause in the nikah contract in the first place?


    It's the whole point of the nikah. The man provides and in return gets sex-on-demand. It's prostitution basically. I think you may be able to take this out of the nikah agreement though but I'm not entirely sure as this is kinda the point of the nikah, also it would make you look like a bad muslim if you did so. No-win situation.

    Now, it sounds like a magnificent idea. But Muhammad was a bit stupid, as it happens, and he didn't really see the very obvious loophole in this god-awful piece of law, which can easily be argued to contribute to social corruption and further immorality.

    What loophole? The women is not allowed to marry another man, have sex and divorce him as an excuse to remarry her previous husband. Mohammed stated that a man did this to allow a women to go back to her husband will not be granted permission to go to heaven.
    It's pathetic how the same condition is not required of the husband. Why does the woman always have to bare the brunt of everything?
  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #56 - May 28, 2009, 10:32 AM

    PeruvianSkies,
    this was my reply:
    But what is it doing in the contract anyway?

    It's like when I was dealing with my estate agent about a property I want to rent next year, I had a problem with something in the contract and I wanted him to change it. No one around me could understand my actions, they were like "but that's the contract!"

    No it isn't... not yet anyway. You can think about a contract and change it before you sign it. So why is this clause in the nikah contract in the first place?


    It's the whole point of the nikah. The man provides and in return gets sex-on-demand. It's prostitution basically. I think you may be able to take this out of the nikah agreement though but I'm not entirely sure as this is kinda the point of the nikah, also it would make you look like a bad muslim if you did so. No-win situation.


    Well that's the next port of call then. What they have done is said, "marriage is good!" which we all agree with, then they re-define marriage, and then whatever criticism we come up with they say "but marriage is good!". No, the fact that they have re-defined marriage seriously subtracts the value off marriage that was so appealing about it before the re-defining of the word. It is only a win-win situation for them if you fall for their trap that marriage is good whatever definition is given to it.

    Quote
    Now, it sounds like a magnificent idea. But Muhammad was a bit stupid, as it happens, and he didn't really see the very obvious loophole in this god-awful piece of law, which can easily be argued to contribute to social corruption and further immorality.

    What loophole? The women is not allowed to marry another man, have sex and divorce him as an excuse to remarry her previous husband. Mohammed stated that a man did this to allow a women to go back to her husband will not be granted permission to go to heaven.
    It's pathetic how the same condition is not required of the husband. Why does the woman always have to bare the brunt of everything?


    The loophole is, that if a man has just divorced the woman, and they can't get married to each other, then if they are clever enough (you don't have to be that clever tbh, it is really that obvious!) they could plan so that the woman marries another man, has sex with him, becomes a nasty bitch to him to get him to divorce her, and then re-marries the previous husband. I can imagine A LOT of people going through that loophole if it means getting back with the one whom they love. Imagine how much sadness and pain that would be produced for the new husband and for the possible child that might be produced out of their union? This in turn is not good for society, since the family unit is the building blocks of society.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #57 - May 28, 2009, 10:39 AM

    The loophole is, that if a man has just divorced the woman, and they can't get married to each other, then if they are clever enough (you don't have to be that clever tbh, it is really that obvious!) they could plan so that the woman marries another man, has sex with him, becomes a nasty bitch to him to get him to divorce her, and then re-marries the previous husband. I can imagine A LOT of people going through that loophole if it means getting back with the one whom they love. Imagine how much sadness and pain that would be produced for the new husband and for the possible child that might be produced out of their union? This in turn is not good for society, since the family unit is the building blocks of society.

    That women would most likely be beaten into submission by the new husband Tongue It's a risky plan but I understand what you're trying to say. It's a stupid rule.
  • Re: People are fucking assholes!
     Reply #58 - May 28, 2009, 10:45 AM

    That women would most likely be beaten into submission by the new husband Tongue


    Nothing new for them.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
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