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Theme Changer

 Topic: Abortion?

 (Read 46424 times)
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  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #120 - June 06, 2009, 12:09 PM
    I think there are some good points in this link: http://www.coalitionforchoice.org/24-reasons-for-24-weeks/

    As for the supposed 'reports' you read of women that were raped, James, can you offer a source where we can read them too? Just for the sake of the debate, so we know you aren't just pulling these statements out of your backside.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #121 - June 06, 2009, 12:10 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 12:08 PM

    It does not matter what a woman has gone through


    Yes, we already got that you feel that way.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #122 - June 06, 2009, 12:10 PM
    So you regard a fertilized egg and a new born baby as having the same right to life J4M3S?
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #123 - June 06, 2009, 12:10 PM
    Quote from: heartbomb on June 06, 2009, 11:49 AM
    What about women who have abortions because they've had sex before marriage in a strict religious environment (say a Muslim nation) and if they get found out they will be killed by their crazy father and brother?



    If I were to kill a human child so that I could save myself from the potential danger of being killed, I would have committed a horrific immorality.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #124 - June 06, 2009, 12:10 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 12:03 PM
    Since when did classification of species depend on appearances? Doesn't it depend solely on genetics? It wasn't ever going to happen that the "Tree Man" was going to be reclassified from Homo Sapien to Quercus robur.

    Of course the species classification depends on genetics. So what? My point, which you have entrely ignored, is that you are claiming the status of "child" for something you wouldn't even recognise as a child yourself.


    Quote
    And as for asking me whether I believe there should be a funeral for all the fertilised eggs that abort during pregnancy. My sister had a miscarriage very very early on in pregnancy. There were no visible signs of her being pregnant, nor of the embryo. But she didn't treat it like she just had constipation, she treated it as if her child had just been killed. She was struck with grief for weeks afterwards. So if you think that in the early stages of pregnancy nobody has feelings attached to this "collection of cells" as you like to call it, then think again. And I do not believe that a funeral is a moral requirement. It is a tradition, not an issue of morality.

    Ok, so you have quoted one example. Now, what about all the examples where the woman in question does not feel this way?


    Quote
    The law allows a child to be aborted up to 24 weeks into the pregnancy. I showed you a picture of a foetus that had been aborted at 24 weeks and you said it was not relevant. Can you explain yourself?

    Sure. I was talking about early term abortion at the time, not late term abortion. Therefore you posting that picture was irrelevant.


    Quote
    And I take issue with this. See the picture of the aborted foetus at 24 weeks, although you said it was not relevant in which case you have contradicted yourself in one of 2 places, you choose which.

    No, I have not contradicted myself at all. I was saying that the 24 week old foetus is irrelevant to the question of early term abortion. I would have though that was blindingly bloody obvious.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #125 - June 06, 2009, 12:11 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 12:08 PM
    They think that rape is so bad that everybody who has been raped obviously doesn't want to keep the product of rape; a baby.


    No, 'THEY' think that rape is so bad that everybody who has been raped MAY NOT want to keep the product of rape. It's all about CHOICE.

    Goodness gracious.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #126 - June 06, 2009, 12:12 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 12:08 PM
    Your missing the point. A number of people in this thread have tried using the appealing to emotion argument that somehow the feeling of the rape victim can justify murder. They think that rape is so bad that everybody who has been raped obviously doesn't want to keep the product of rape; a baby. I was just demonstrating that that was false and that there are many women whose emotional tendencies do not get the better of their rational moral judgment.


    You haven't proved to my satisfaction that keeping the baby is the rational thing to do.  Morality is based off of emotion so you can stop bandying the word around if you don't want to use emotion in your arguement.

    Infact keeping the baby is purely out of emotion, not rationality.

    Quote
    It does not matter what a woman has gone through, I would not honour them with the liberty to kill an innocent child. This kind of morality of sacrificing human beings strikes similar to the Bible and the Qur'an.


     Roll Eyes
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #127 - June 06, 2009, 12:14 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 12:10 PM
    If I were to kill a human child so that I could save myself from the potential danger of being killed, I would have committed a horrific immorality.


    Then your empathy for human life is hypocritical and unjust. How can you put a value on one supposedly human life which equates to more than another human life.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #128 - June 06, 2009, 12:16 PM
    Quote from: heartbomb on June 06, 2009, 11:59 AM
    I think you were the first to make a judgement of character when you said the following:

    I think that was extremely inappropriate for female members who may have gone through the procedure and you are labeling them murderers without knowing their feelings and circumstances.


    I am saying that unless there is some major reason otherwise, such as it is likely that the mother will die and the child may not survive, then abortion is wrong.

    Anybody on this forum who has had an abortion simply because they thought themselves as not rich enough to give the child a happy life, yes I will think of them as murderers. But that does not make them any less human. Many murderers commit murder for simple and understandable reasons, but they don't realize how vicious and horrific an outcome they implicated.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #129 - June 06, 2009, 12:18 PM
    Quote from: heartbomb on June 06, 2009, 12:09 PM
    I think there are some good points in this link: http://www.coalitionforchoice.org/24-reasons-for-24-weeks/

    There are some good points and some poor ones IMO.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #130 - June 06, 2009, 12:19 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 12:16 PM
    I am saying that unless there is some major reason otherwise, such as it is likely that the mother will die and the child may not survive, then abortion is wrong.

    Anybody on this forum who has had an abortion simply because they thought themselves as not rich enough to give the child a happy life, yes I will think of them as murderers. But that does not make them any less human. Many murderers commit murder for simple and understandable reasons, but they don't realize how vicious and horrific an outcome they implicated.


    So even if allat was making a judgement on your character, she didn't say you were any less human too. So do you really have a reason to be offended, when you yourself are offending many women by labeling them murderers.  Roll Eyes
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #131 - June 06, 2009, 12:19 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 06, 2009, 12:18 PM
    There are some good points and some poor ones IMO.




    Yeh some of them are shit, that's why I said some Tongue
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #132 - June 06, 2009, 12:19 PM
    Quote
    Anybody on this forum who has had an abortion simply because they thought themselves as not rich enough to give the child a happy life, yes I will think of them as murderers


    Then you don't understand the definition of murder.  Even before abortion was legalised, it wasn't classed as murder.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #133 - June 06, 2009, 12:20 PM
    James, when you asked if you had shown dogmatism in this thread: were you actually seriously asking that?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #134 - June 06, 2009, 12:21 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 06, 2009, 12:10 PM
    Of course the species classification depends on genetics. So what? My point, which you have entrely ignored, is that you are claiming the status of "child" for something you wouldn't even recognise as a child yourself.


    And? There are human beings which I probably wouldn't recognize as human beings, unless somebody told me.

    Quote
    Ok, so you have quoted one example. Now, what about all the examples where the woman in question does not feel this way?


    I would think that the majority of women who experience a miscarriage think of it as a devastating tragedy and are struck with painful grief.

    Quote
    Sure. I was talking about early term abortion at the time, not late term abortion. Therefore you posting that picture was irrelevant.


    So you accept that 24 weeks of pregnancy is "late-term" and therefore should be illegal to abort?

    Quote
    No, I have not contradicted myself at all. I was saying that the 24 week old foetus is irrelevant to the question of early term abortion. I would have though that was blindingly bloody obvious.


    Have I missed something? You said that the practical line has been set at 24 weeks and you seem to have no quarrel with that.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #135 - June 06, 2009, 12:22 PM
    Quote from: heartbomb on June 06, 2009, 12:11 PM
    No, 'THEY' think that rape is so bad that everybody who has been raped MAY NOT want to keep the product of rape. It's all about CHOICE.

    Goodness gracious.


    Do you have the memory of a fish? What about the choice of the child?

    We're going round in circles here...
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #136 - June 06, 2009, 12:24 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 12:22 PM
    Do you have the memory of a fish? What about the choice of the child?

    We're going round in circles here...


    The child is not developed enough to make a choice, nor is it developed enough to be self-aware or feel pain, so it doesn't suffer anything from the consequenced of the choice. 

    Therefore the choice should lie with the pregnant woman to say what happens to her own body.  Its not your place to make it for her, nor to judge her for what she does.  You're just being dogmatic and emotive.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #137 - June 06, 2009, 12:25 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 12:21 PM
    And? There are human beings which I probably wouldn't recognize as human beings, unless somebody told me.

    I think not. You're not being completely candid here.

    Quote
    I would think that the majority of women who experience a miscarriage think of it as a devastating tragedy and are struck with painful grief.

    Ok, so you would think that. What does that prove?

    Quote
    So you accept that 24 weeks of pregnancy is "late-term" and therefore should be illegal to abort?

    The latter does not necessarily follow from the former.

    Quote
    Have I missed something? You said that the practical line has been set at 24 weeks and you seem to have no quarrel with that.

    Yes James, you have missed several things. More than once.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #138 - June 06, 2009, 12:26 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 12:22 PM
    Do you have the memory of a fish? What about the choice of the child?

    We're going round in circles here...


    No I don't have the memory of a fish, thank you for your concern though.

    It's not a child, it's a mass of tissue. Give me medical evidence to show that it is considered a child and that if it were to be taken out at 20-24 weeks, it would survive without any outside influences and without the mother.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #139 - June 06, 2009, 12:27 PM
    I take it you are against euthanasia too then.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #140 - June 06, 2009, 12:32 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on June 06, 2009, 12:24 PM
    The child is not developed enough to make a choice, nor is it developed enough to be self-aware or feel pain, so it doesn't suffer anything from the consequenced of the choice. 

    Therefore the choice should lie with the pregnant woman to say what happens to her own body.  Its not your place to make it for her, nor to judge her for what she does.  You're just being dogmatic and emotive.


    Ofcourse, in the same way that a minor is not perceived as being developed enough to make many choices. The fact is, they autonomy should be protected.

    Saying they are will not feel pain is irrelevant. Drugging anyone and then euthanatizing them will make them die painlessly. The fact is you are breaching their autonomy and that is what makes it immoral.

    That is very rich you accusing me of dogmatism and being emotive. I have highlighted in bold an example of your dogmatism and being emotive in the same sentence as you condemning me of the same.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #141 - June 06, 2009, 12:36 PM
    Quote from: heartbomb on June 06, 2009, 12:26 PM
    No I don't have the memory of a fish, thank you for your concern though.

    It's not a child, it's a mass of tissue. Give me medical evidence to show that it is considered a child and that if it were to be taken out at 20-24 weeks, it would survive without any outside influences and without the mother.


    This is proof you really do have a memory of a fish.

    I have already explained that a child will NOT survive outside of the womb, but that this is not a justification to say that the mother can do what she wants with the child. I have even given a thought experiment of a burglar who is in somebody's house surrounded by the pit of lava. You obviously don't remember it.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #142 - June 06, 2009, 12:36 PM
    Quote
    Ofcourse, in the same way that a minor is not perceived as being developed enough to make many choices. The fact is, they autonomy should be protected.

    Saying they are will not feel pain is irrelevant. Drugging anyone and then euthanatizing them will make them die painlessly. The fact is you are breaching their autonomy and that is what makes it immoral.


    An embryo doesn't have autonomy by its very nature.  It is dependent on the woman's body to host it, without that it cannot survive.  This is not at all the same as a minor child or an a drugged adult.

    Quote
    That is very rich you accusing me of dogmatism and being emotive. I have highlighted in bold an example of your dogmatism and being emotive in the same sentence as you condemning me of the same.


    There is a difference between straight talking, and being dogmatic and emotive.  You are presuming to judge people you know nothing about, over choices that you obviously don't fully understand.  You also seem to think that there is no difference between a fertilised egg and a newborn baby, and that the law should force women to carry every pregnancy to full term against their will if necessary. 

    So important is the life of a fertilised egg to you, it even overrules the right to autonomy of a fully grown adult.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #143 - June 06, 2009, 12:37 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 12:36 PM
    This is proof you really do have a memory of a fish.

    I have already explained that a child will NOT survive outside of the womb, but that this is not a justification to say that the mother can do what she wants with the child. I have even given a thought experiment of a burglar who is in somebody's house surrounded by the pit of lava. You obviously don't remember it.


    It was such a poor analogy that I didn't give it much thought at all.

    Try not to attack me in a debate, it makes you look very petty.

    Anyway, are you against euthanasia?

    Are you a vegetarian?
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #144 - June 06, 2009, 12:38 PM
    Quote from: heartbomb on June 06, 2009, 12:27 PM
    I take it you are against euthanasia too then.


    I havn't given it much thought to be honest but it is not in the same league as abortion because with euthanasia you can ask the patient whether they want to live or not. If the patient does not want to die but is suffering greatly, then you have absolutely no right whatsoever to kill that patient out of some twisted view of mercy.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #145 - June 06, 2009, 12:38 PM
    Quote
    This is proof you really do have a memory of a fish.


    Cut out the insults, please.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #146 - June 06, 2009, 12:39 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 12:38 PM
    I havn't given it much thought to be honest but it is not in the same league as abortion because with euthanasia you can ask the patient whether they want to live or not. If the patient does not want to die but is suffering greatly, then you have absolutely no right whatsoever to kill that patient out of some twisted view of mercy.


    You cannot always ask a patient if they want to live or not, in the case of a coma. Sometimes they have no idea whether the patient will come out or not and keep them on life support machines.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #147 - June 06, 2009, 12:40 PM
    Quote from: heartbomb on June 06, 2009, 12:39 PM
    You cannot always ask a patient if they want to live or not, in the case of a coma.


    Then I would probably be against euthanasia in that instance but I'm not going to debate that now.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #148 - June 06, 2009, 12:40 PM
    James, are you a vegetarian?
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #149 - June 06, 2009, 12:44 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 12:40 PM
    Then I would probably be against euthanasia in that instance but I'm not going to debate that now.

    I'd love to see you debate that one. I expect you'd be calling my mother a murderer because she agreed to turn off the life support for my father when he was in a coma.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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