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Theme Changer

 Topic: Abortion?

 (Read 46393 times)
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  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #180 - June 06, 2009, 02:17 PM

    That's the question.


    You had a good run on this thread, James, but I think it's time to tip your king over.

    fuck you
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #181 - June 06, 2009, 02:18 PM

    That's the question.


    No, the question was do you support criminalising abortion even though I've just showed you evidence that it leads to an increase in abortions overall, and late abortions in particular?

    You still haven't answered, and you're obviously not sure how to, hence you throw an irrelevant question at me. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #182 - June 06, 2009, 02:20 PM

    No, the question was do you support criminalising abortion even though I've just showed you evidence that it leads to an increase in abortions overall, and late abortions in particular?

    You still haven't answered, and you're obviously not sure how to, hence you throw an irrelevant question at me. 


     Huh?

    I answered the question already. I'll repost it for you. Then I will explain why the question I asked you was completely directly (not even indirectly) relevant.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #183 - June 06, 2009, 02:22 PM

    Who said I believe that people who believe abortion and euthanasia to be acceptable are just following social trends? I said what I said because you said this, which doesn't bring any substance to this debate in the slightest:




    The substance, or rather intent behind that post was that it's ludicrous to pass judgement on someone and label them a murderer for making such a decision involving either abortion or euthanasia.

    Whether it is generally socially acceptable or not, being labeled a murderer after a woman has just gone through a difficult time (abortion or pulling the life support machine plug on her husband) will aggravate the persons involved. I can imagine the trauma that people would go through when involved in abortion or euthanasia and instead of passing judgment on them, perhaps we should help them get through it so they don't feel totally alone.

    Your lack of empathy is amazing. I won't be totally surprised if your response to this is "Oh well! They should have thought of that before they had the abortion/pulled the plug"  Roll Eyes
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #184 - June 06, 2009, 02:26 PM

    That's a good question and I'm not sure what the answer is. Something is telling me that on principle it should be illegal and that we should do what we can to prevent it from happening.

    If there were statistics that showed that countries without any legislation against rape had less instances of rape than in countries with legislation against rape, would you want to change the law so that it is no longer illegal to rape?


    Here I am telling you that I do not pretend to know what the answer is. It makes sense to do what will lead to the best consequences, which is a very attractive ethic, but then it seems to mean a complete disregard for our principles which we wouldn't be willing to abandon.

    Now the thought experiment is very relevant because what I am doing is taking your consequentialist ethic and applying it to another situation. Does it go against our intuition to accept that we should legalize rape if it means less rapes will occur? Or should we keep to our deontological principles that rape is wrong and should be outlawed, and everything done to prevent it from occuring?

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #185 - June 06, 2009, 02:32 PM

    The substance, or rather intent behind that post was that it's ludicrous to pass judgement on someone and label them a murderer for making such a decision involving either abortion or euthanasia.


    ...because the majority of the world would be labelled as murderers? You said that the majority of the world would be labelled as murderers. I took that to be a possible reply to why abortion and euthanasia should therefore be legal, as many advocates of abortion and euthanasia probably do use such a reply. I was demonstrating how fallacious such a reply was.

    It is like saying there are more non-Muslims in the world than Muslims, so for a Muslim to label more than half the world as infidels is just wrong. Well, that doesn't necessarily follow; they could well be right.

    Quote
    Whether it is generally socially acceptable or not, being labeled a murderer after a woman has just gone through a difficult time (abortion or pulling the life support machine plug on her husband) will aggravate the persons involved. I can imagine the trauma that people would go through when involved in abortion or euthanasia and instead of passing judgment on them, perhaps we should help them get through it so they don't feel totally alone.

    Your lack of empathy is amazing. I won't be totally surprised if your response to this is "Oh well! They should have thought of that before they had the abortion/pulled the plug"  Roll Eyes


    Typical pro-abortion/euthanasia babble. No intellectual substance = not worth replying to.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #186 - June 06, 2009, 02:33 PM

    Huh?

    I answered the question already. I'll repost it for you. Then I will explain why the question I asked you was completely directly (not even indirectly) relevant.


    Here, I'll answer it for you--

    From the position of deontological ethics, no it would not justify making rape legal

    From the position of consequentialist or utilitarian ethics, yes it would justify making rape legal

    And here's the rub-- although you have done a good job on this thread (through your Socratic-like one liners and questions) of making an argument that abortion is inherently immoral, you have not proven it yet (and I'm not sure it is provable, at least in cases where the fetus is not viable outside the womb), so it would make sense to err on the consequentialist side if one could prove the consequence of making abortion illegal is more abortion.

    Now, you want to get out of this trap without chewing off your leg? Although it is provable, Cheetah actually has not proven that yet, as she has not demonstrated a causal relationship, but she has demonstrated a strong correlation. You can provide reasons to believe there is not a direct causal relationship (which shouldn't be too hard) and thus the correlation is no more than a correlation.

    Sorry, Cheetah. I had to give him a stick to pry open the trap. I can't stand to see unnecessary suffering.  dance

    fuck you
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #187 - June 06, 2009, 02:35 PM

    Lol, is okay, that's the response I thought James would give in the first place, so I have my answer prepared.   dance

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #188 - June 06, 2009, 02:37 PM

    Here, I'll answer it for you--

    From the position of deontological ethics, no it would not justify making rape legal

    From the position of consequentialist or utilitarian ethics, yes it would justify making rape legal

    And here's the rub-- although you have done a good job on this thread (through your Socratic-like one liners and questions) of making an argument that abortion is inherently immoral, you have not proven it yet (and I'm not sure it is provable, at least in cases where the fetus is not viable outside the womb), so it would make sense to err on the consequentialist side if one could prove the consequence of making abortion illegal is more abortion.

    Now, you want to get out of this trap without chewing off your leg? Although it is provable, Cheetah actually has not proven that yet, as she has not demonstrated a causal relationship, but she has demonstrated a strong correlation. You can provide reasons to believe there is not a direct causal relationship (which shouldn't be too hard) and thus the correlation is no more than a correlation.

    Sorry, Cheetah. I had to give him a stick to pry open the trap. I can't stand to see unnecessary suffering.  dance


    Look two posts above this one of yours I have quoted.


    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #189 - June 06, 2009, 02:38 PM

    Lol, is okay, that's the response I thought James would give in the first place, so I have my answer prepared.   dance


    Well the ball is in your court, so to speak.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #190 - June 06, 2009, 02:47 PM

    Oh shit, Q-Man I thought you were answering Cheetah's question for me, but I just read the beginning of it again and your talking about rape so I take it your answering my question to Cheetah about whether rape should be legalized if the statistics showed that it would lower the counts of rape.

    Well, I have already addressed that the choice is between a consequentialist and a deontological ethic, but which one is it?

    If we are inclined to say deontological, then we have the problem of actually advocating a situation where more rapes are going to happen, which I suspect are Cheetah's worries. So Cheetah might take the consequentialist approach...

    If we are inclined to say consequentialist, then can we remain logically coherent by actually advocating the legalization of rape, should such a situation arise?

    My inclination would be different to Cheetah's. I would err on the deontological side, for the simple reason that in the state where rape is legalized, there will still be occurances of rape, but because it is legal, the victims will not be able to claim any kind of state protection and the abuse will most likely continue.

    Thus I would argue for the state to outlaw abortion, because abortions still occur in countries where it is legal, and as a result, nothing can be legally done against these moral criminals.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #191 - June 06, 2009, 02:49 PM

    No, the question was do you support criminalising abortion even though I've just showed you evidence that it leads to an increase in abortions overall, and late abortions in particular?


    So, YES.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #192 - June 06, 2009, 02:49 PM

    Quote
    Here I am telling you that I do not pretend to know what the answer is. It makes sense to do what will lead to the best consequences, which is a very attractive ethic, but then it seems to mean a complete disregard for our principles which we wouldn't be willing to abandon.


    Yes, but which principle?  There are two conflicting principles at play in the abortion debate - the right to life of the unborn child, and the right to autonomy of the woman.  Intuition seems to be telling you that these two principles clash - ie, that if we come down on the side of the unborn child and criminalise abortion, that we are forced to violate the autonomy of a woman with an unwanted pregnancy, and that if we come down on the side of liberty for the woman, we are forced to violate the principle of right to life.

    Reality does not support this intuitive response - it flatly contradicts it.  In societies where abortion is illegal/highly restricted neither the right to liberty of the woman NOR the right to life of the unborn are vindicated, and both are violated.  Abortion rates and maternal death rates increase, while womens' liberty is violated under law.  So for what reason would you criminalise abortion?  Because you hate women and/or unborn children? 

    Quote
    Now the thought experiment is very relevant because what I am doing is taking your consequentialist ethic and applying it to another situation. Does it go against our intuition to accept that we should legalize rape if it means less rapes will occur? Or should we keep to our deontological principles that rape is wrong and should be outlawed, and everything done to prevent it from occuring?


    From the consequentialist POV yes, in such a scenario, it would be best to decriminalise it. 


    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #193 - June 06, 2009, 02:53 PM



    From the consequentialist POV yes, in such a scenario, it would be best to decriminalise it. 




    You realize that in such states, rape will still be present? That means rape victims will not be granted any protection from the state whatsoever, and the rest of society will not receive protection from these rapists.

    In fact, I'm willing to conclude that BOTH the consequentialist ethic (the more sophisticated and modern rule-consequentialist ethic) AND the deontological ethic are in favour of outlawing what is immoral even if it means more occurances of that given criminal action.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #194 - June 06, 2009, 02:57 PM

    Actually, no a person could still receive help and protection from the state, even if the rape itself were not treated as a crime. 

    However, this is getting too far from the point.  You seem to have overlooked the fact that the abortion debate contains two central ethical principles, not just one.  In order to criminalise abortion, you have to violate a fundamental principle of human rights - the right to liberty of the woman.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #195 - June 06, 2009, 04:12 PM

    ...because the majority of the world would be labelled as murderers? You said that the majority of the world would be labelled as murderers. I took that to be a possible reply to why abortion and euthanasia should therefore be legal, as many advocates of abortion and euthanasia probably do use such a reply. I was demonstrating how fallacious such a reply was.

    It is like saying there are more non-Muslims in the world than Muslims, so for a Muslim to label more than half the world as infidels is just wrong. Well, that doesn't necessarily follow; they could well be right.

    Typical pro-abortion/euthanasia babble. No intellectual substance = not worth replying to.


    Pro-abortion? Typical pro-lifer label for pro-choicers. Roll Eyes Not worth replying to? At least make an effort, or will that be as lame as the beginning of your post?
     
    Labeling them murderers is wrong not because the majority would be murderers, you have put words in my mouth so to speak. That wasn't my point at all. But you are not worth explaining it to, to be honest.

    You sound like a religio-nut.

    Heartbomb out. Peace.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #196 - June 06, 2009, 04:16 PM

    Actually, no a person could still receive help and protection from the state, even if the rape itself were not treated as a crime.


    Nope, the person would not be able to receive help or protection from the state, exactly because the thing the victim of rape wants to be protected from isn't even criminal.

    Quote
    However, this is getting too far from the point.  You seem to have overlooked the fact that the abortion debate contains two central ethical principles, not just one.  In order to criminalise abortion, you have to violate a fundamental principle of human rights - the right to liberty of the woman.


    In the same way that the state is violating the people's liberty to kill innocent people, yes. Now your going to say that that wouldn't be appropriately called "violating the people's liberty" because they would actually be protecting the people's liberty from being murdered. And I would use the same argument and say that the state should be protecting the liberty of the unborn child.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #197 - June 06, 2009, 04:19 PM

    You sound like a religio-nut.


    Ah, typical assumption by Pro-Choicers that Pro-Lifers must be religionists.  Roll Eyes

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #198 - June 06, 2009, 04:22 PM

    This thread has taken up the bulk of two days of my life and it isn't getting anyone anywhere. What a waste of time.

    This is the end of the discussion on my part, which will probably mean the death of the thread since I'm the only one here who gives a shit about the unborn child.

    Anyway, Peace.


    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #199 - June 06, 2009, 04:22 PM

    Ah, typical assumption by Pro-Choicers that Pro-Lifers must be religionists.  Roll Eyes


    No, I said YOU sound like a religio-nut.

    I know many atheists that are pro-life and anti-abortion (the wonderful guys at AFA) but at least their arguments have substance and they don't resort to attacking and belittling their 'opposition'. They actually have some very good arguments.

    You insulted me many a times in this discussion (most probably because you felt over-whelmed by the number of people opposing you in the debate) so I have no second thoughts about disengaging with a discussion with you.

    Enjoy your petty little debate. Roll Eyes

    since I'm the only one here who gives a shit about the unborn child.



    Dogmatic much Roll Eyes
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #200 - June 06, 2009, 04:41 PM

    Quote
    Nope, the person would not be able to receive help or protection from the state, exactly because the thing the victim of rape wants to be protected from isn't even criminal.


    No, that doesn't follow.  Being an alcoholic isn't criminal either, people can still receive support for alcohol addiction, and families of alcoholics can still receive a certain amount of protection from the consequences of having an addict in the family.

    Quote
    In the same way that the state is violating the people's liberty to kill innocent people, yes. Now your going to say that that wouldn't be appropriately called "violating the people's liberty" because they would actually be protecting the people's liberty from being murdered. And I would use the same argument and say that the state should be protecting the liberty of the unborn child.


    That's the nuttiest argument I have ever heard about abortion.  An unborn child has no liberty to protect, the argument against abortion is based on vindicating its right to life, even the Pope wouldn't attempt to claim that a foetus has any liberty to vindicate.   Roll Eyes

    All along you are overlooking the fact that an unborn child is growing inside someone else's body.  Therefore in order to hold its right to life as absolute, you have to violate the liberty of the person who is hosting it.  You don't seem to care one iota about that, because the little baby is so important.  And yet - when it was put to you that criminalising it kills more little babies, suddenly the babies weren't as important as your "right" to have your absolutist principles written into law. 

    Thankfully, we live in far too sane a world for you to ever get your own way about this one.


    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #201 - June 06, 2009, 05:36 PM

    Thankfully, we live in far too sane a world for you to ever get your own way about this one.

    That's the thought that keeps people like me, people who see the unfortunate but necessary reality of abortion, on the PRO CHOICE side of the issue.

    You can't argue with belief and that's what anti-choicers rely heavily on: the belief that upon conception the fertilized ovum has more rights than the conscious, adult person who will be responsible for it. It's no different than any other religious-based belief. There's no scientific proof of this belief like there's no scientific proof of an existence of a "soul" or of a "god" or of "angels".

    This, I think, is apt here:

    Quote
    New 'Anti-Abortion Pill' Kills Mother, Leaves Fetus Alive
    NEW YORK?Pro-life advocates celebrated approval of the new anti-abortion drug UR-86 by the Food and Drug Administration Tuesday, calling it a "safe and effective method" for terminating pregnant women while leaving their unborn children unharmed.


    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #202 - June 06, 2009, 10:00 PM

    Your talking about youself, right?

    I already said I won't be discussing euthanasia as I have not familiarised myself with the issue.

    No james. I was not talking about myself. You had already begun to address the question of euthanasia. You had already made a statement that under some circumstances you would regard it as murder. Now, when pressed to elucidate what some of those circumstances might be, you run away.  Tongue

    Oh come on osmanthus. That was a reply to heartbomb who said that most of the world would be considered murderers. I was responding to that by saying that it cannot be used as a justification to allow abortion.

    Are you having difficulty with this or are you deliberately giving me a hard time?

    Neither. You stated that people go along with social trends, thereby implying that some abortions are simply the result of social trends. You were the one who made the allusion.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #203 - June 06, 2009, 10:06 PM

    Here I am telling you that I do not pretend to know what the answer is. It makes sense to do what will lead to the best consequences, which is a very attractive ethic, but then it seems to mean a complete disregard for our principles which we wouldn't be willing to abandon.

    James, what you are saying here is that principles are more important than actually doing some good in the world. IOW, you value your "principles" above the welfare of human beings. Can you still not understand why I asked if you truly could not see your own dogmatism?

    Are you aware of all the examples from history of what happens when people value "principles" above the welfare of human beings?


    Quote
    Now the thought experiment is very relevant because what I am doing is taking your consequentialist ethic and applying it to another situation. Does it go against our intuition to accept that we should legalize rape if it means less rapes will occur? Or should we keep to our deontological principles that rape is wrong and should be outlawed, and everything done to prevent it from occuring?

    James, hypothetically, if making rape legal led to less rape then yes that would be a very strong argument in favour of making it legal. However your "thought experiment" is idiotic because you have no evidence that legalising rape would result in less rape, and in fact given the recorded examples of how rapists tend to think it should be pretty bloody obvious that making rape legal would not even make them think twice about raping someone.

    The case with abortion is completely different.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #204 - June 08, 2009, 02:00 PM

    Wow, I have been busy some days and now I have 89762346 pages in this thread left to read ^_^

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #205 - June 08, 2009, 05:01 PM

    Your saying that it could not be a different mother, but it could be a different person walking into the house and finding the drowning child. Can you tell me how that is relevant, though? If I tweak the scenario so that there is only you and the drowning child left in the world, then it could not be anybody else in the scenario, but the moral issue is exactly the same; you would be morally obliged to help the child and stop them from drowning.

    Ah yes, I like this scenario better.
    I agree with you that if I were alone in the universe with a drowning kid I would feel morally obliged to help him.
    But that is also because the "cost" of saving him is negligible compared to the result.

    What if the kid kept taking a bath every 5 minutes for the next "n" months and I had to be there to save him from drowning all the time?
    I guess I would still be there to save him. Mainly because he/she is the other human left and the benefit of having company is worth sacrificing "n" months of my sanity.

    But what if I were the only person who could watch some given kid to prevent him from drowning for those n months while the rest of humanity carries on with their life as normal... then I think I might let him die and join the rest of the world. His life would not be worth "n" months of my sanity, in that case.
    But then again, it depends on how big "n" is.
    1 week? It's definitely a sacrifice I would do.
    1 month? Still doable.
    3 months? Could be worth a sarcifice, depends on my life situation.
    6 months? Not sure.
    9 months? Eh, I think I would lose sanity.
    10 years? No way! I let that little drowning idiot die ^_^

    So I guess it all boils down on how long you have to "lend them your body" compared to how strong-willed you are and how much importance you place in "doing something else".

    And if the fact that the child would not have existed if the mother did not exist, gives the right for the mother to take away the life of the child, why can't that principle be applied after birth aswell?

    No, that alone doesn't give such right.
    It's that PLUS being the only entity that is the common denominator to his existence.
    Which, together, imply that the mother has to lend her body to the kid with continuity for 9 months for the kid to even begin existing.

    So I think that the freedom and the health (physical and mental) of the "human incubator" (who, by being pregnant, has proved to be a fully functional individual capable of reproduction) has priority over the "incubated human" (who might or might not develop into a fully functional individual).

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #206 - June 17, 2009, 05:45 PM

    I was once a strong "pro-choicer" but gradually I changed my mind...

    One of reality checks was Dr Nathanson's confession who was an abortionist himself...

    In his confessions he wrote:

    Quote
    I am  personally  responsible  for 75,000  abortions.  This  legitimises  my  credentials
    to speak  to you  with some authority  on the issue.  I was  one of  the founders of  the
    National Association for the Repeal of the Abortion Laws  (NARAL)  in the U.S.  in  1968.
    (...)
    We announced  to the media  that we
    had taken polls and that 60% of Americans were in favour of permissive abortion.  This is
    the tactic of the self-fulfilling lie.  Few people care to be in the minority. We aroused
    enough sympathy  to sell our program  of permissive abortion by fabricating the number of
    illegal abortions done annually in the U.S. The actual figure was approaching 100,000 but
    the figure  we gave  to the media  repeatedly was 1,000,000.  Repeating the big lie often
    enough convinces the public. 

    The number of women dying from illegal abortions was around
    200-250  annually.  The figure  we constantly fed  to the media  was 10,000.  These false
    figures  took root  in the consciousness  of Americans  convincing many that we needed to
    crack  the  abortion law.  Another myth  we fed  to the public through the media was that
    legalising abortion  would only mean that the abortions taking place illegally would then
    be done legally.  In fact,  of course,  abortion is now being used as a primary method of
    birth control in the U.S. and the annual number of abortions has increased by 1500% since
    legalisation.     

       

    The whole text is here: http://www.aboutabortions.com/Confess.html

    Dr Nathanson wrote books and made movies about abortion...so if any one gets more interested- try amazon ot youtube...                           
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #207 - June 17, 2009, 08:01 PM

    That's very refreshing, M. I will definitely read up on this guy.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #208 - June 17, 2009, 08:19 PM

    Just read your introductory thread, M. and I want to ask you a question:

    When you say you were once pro-choice, was that when you left Roman Catholicism? And did you become pro-life when you converted back to Roman Catholicism?

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #209 - June 17, 2009, 08:24 PM

    I think the issue lies in making sure people dont partake in careless sex, the Dutch have a very open education to kids about sex from a young age, so they are educated and not 'chomping' at the bit like in the UK and US.

    Also, all the anti abortionists, i guess your concerned about the sanctity of life and all the bull shit?

    Well do you draw the line at human fetus that knows and feels nothing, but you cant give a shit that millions of animals die horrific and painful deaths everyday just so you can stuff your faces. Dont talk about the sanctity of life.

    Anyway why is human life better than anyother? most dont give a rats arse about how chickens are tortured before and while they are alive on battery farms, but cry over a fetus that is practically dead anyway. Chickens are better than humans any way, as someone once said at least they dont beat their wives or masturbate using vacuums!

    Whats that other saying? life is a sexually transmitted disease...
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