Abortion?

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #240 - June 22, 2009, 01:51 AM

Quote from: Cheetah on June 21, 2009, 06:26 PM
What you've posted above IS an ad hom. More specifically, its called Poisoning the Well - associate a company which produces the abortion pill, (never mind that it also produces chemotherapy products, antibiotics, agricultural products and many other things), with another company which has a dodgy history. Therefore, abortionists are the new Nazis, yada yada.

Btw, the Nazis also outlawed a woman's right to choose. The only abortions allowed under the Nazis were ones that the state forced members of "undesirable" groups to undergo.

"Legalization of abortion was first widely discussed in Germany during the early 20th century. During the Weimar Republic, this discussion led to a reduction in the maximum penalty for abortion, and in 1927 to the legalization - by court decision - of abortion in cases of grave danger to the life of the mother.

In Nazi Germany, the penalties for abortion were increased again. From 1943, abortion was threatened with the death penalty. [1] On the other hand, abortion was at times forced upon members of parts of society that were considered undesirable."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Germany

You commit the very mistake you point out in M in your first paragraph

Unless ofcourse you didn't mean anything by telling us about the Nazis being pro-life, in which case, why mention it?

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #241 - June 22, 2009, 01:54 AM

Quote
You commit the very mistake you point out in M in your first paragraph Smiley

Unless ofcourse you didn't mean anything by telling us about the Nazis being pro-life, in which case, why mention it?

No, I most certainly did not commit the fallacy of poisoning the well. Nor did I ever wander so far from reality as to accuse the Nazis of being pro-life. I suggest you read my post again, with your personal prejudices laid to one side this time.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #242 - June 22, 2009, 02:15 AM

Quote from: Cheetah on June 22, 2009, 01:54 AM
No, I most certainly did not commit the fallacy of poisoning the well. Nor did I ever wander so far from reality as to accuse the Nazis of being pro-life. I suggest you read my post again, with your personal prejudices laid to one side this time.

I just read it again. You definitely committed the same fallacy. And you did say that Nazis were pro-life, you just didn't say it explicitly. I've used this example in another thread and I will use it again: it's like one person saying "I don't like alcohol" and another person asking "but what is wrong with beer?" and the first person replying "I never said there was something wrong with beer". That sounds like a logical fallacy in itself, and it is simply annoying.

Then you get your logical fallacy hattrick in a single short paragraph and do a severe ad hom on me accusing me of reading your posts with personal prejudices.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #243 - June 22, 2009, 02:24 AM

Quote
I just read it again. You definitely committed the same fallacy.

No, I did not. I did not attempt to associate pro-lifers with Hitler or the Nazis, I simply refuted M's phoney attempt to associate pro-choice people with the same.

Quote
And you did say that Nazis were pro-life, you just didn't say it explicitly.

I didn't say it at all, either explicitly OR implicitly.

Quote
I've used this example in another thread and I will use it again: it's like one person saying "I don't like alcohol" and another person asking "but what is wrong with beer?" and the first person replying "I never said there was something wrong with beer". That sounds like a logical fallacy in itself, and it is simply annoying.

That just shows how little you understand the nuances of the abortion debate. There is a massive difference between being pro-life, and being anti-choice. The Nazis are a very good example of the difference.

Quote
hen you get your logical fallacy hattrick in a single short paragraph and do a severe ad hom on me accusing me of reading your posts with personal prejudices.

Its not an ad hom every time you feel ticked off, J4m3z. Its only an ad hom if its used as a substitute for an argument, which doesn't apply in this case, since you clearly have yet to understand the post you are attacking.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #244 - June 23, 2009, 01:35 PM

Quote from: Cheetah on June 21, 2009, 06:26 PM
What you've posted above IS an ad hom. More specifically, its called Poisoning the Well - associate a company which produces the abortion pill, (never mind that it also produces chemotherapy products, antibiotics, agricultural products and many other things), with another company which has a dodgy history. Therefore, abortionists are the new Nazis, yada yada.

No,no,no...

I was not trying to suggest that abortionists are the new Nazis...

I tried to point out yet another coincidence- that the company who was a patent holder of Cyclon "b" now makes money on an abortive pill...

I think that most people are misinformed about abortion- they fall victim to the propaganda Dr Nathanson's described...

Quote from: Dr Nathanson
I am often asked what made me change my mind. How did I change from prominent abortionist
to pro-life advocate?

In 1973, I became director of obstetrics of a large hospital in New
York City and had to set up a prenatal research unit, just at the start of a great new
technology which we now use every day to study the foetus in the womb.

A favourite pro-abortion tactic is to insist that the definition of when life begins is impossible; that
the question is a theological or moral or philosophical one, anything but a scientific
one. Foetology makes it undeniably evident that life begins at conception and requires
all the protection and safeguards that any of us enjoy. Why, you may well ask, do some
American doctors who are privy to the findings of foetology, discredit themselves by
carrying out abortions? Simple arithmetic at $300 a time, 1.55 million abortions means an
industry generating $500,000,000 annually, of which most goes into the pocket of the
physician doing the abortion.

It is clear that permissive abortion is purposeful
destruction of what is undeniably human life. It is an impermissible act of deadly
violence. One must concede that unplanned pregnancy is a wrenchingly difficult dilemma,
but to look for its solution in a deliberate act of destruction is to trash the vast
resourcefulness of human ingenuity, and to surrender the public weal to the classic
utilitarian answer to social problems.
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Re: Abortion?
Reply #245 - June 23, 2009, 02:09 PM

Quote
I tried to point out yet another coincidence- that the company who was a patent holder of Cyclon "b" now makes money on an abortive pill...

Except that's not quite true, is it?

Due to the severity of the war crimes committed by IG Farben during World War II, the company was considered to be too corrupt to be allowed to continue to exist. The Soviet Union seized most of IG Farben's assets located in the Soviet occupation zone (see Morgenthau Plan), as part of their reparation payments. The Western Allies however, in 1951, split the company up into its original constituent companies. The four largest quickly bought the smaller ones. Today only Agfa, BASF, and Bayer remain, Hoechst having in 1999 demerged its industrial chemical operations to Celanese AG and merged its life-sciences businesses with Rh?ne-Poulenc's to form Aventis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IG_Farben

Quote
A favourite pro-abortion tactic is to insist that the definition of when life begins is impossible; that
the question is a theological or moral or philosophical one, anything but a scientific
one. Foetology makes it undeniably evident that life begins at conception and requires
all the protection and safeguards that any of us enjoy.

So, to follow this doctor's mantra would mean abortion is murder, and even the morning after pill should be illegal. That's the situation in parts of Latin America, which has done so much to protect the right to life of the unborn that over half of all abortions carried out annually are carried out in Latin America. The Netherlands OTOH has liberal abortion laws and a low abortion rate, due to good sex education and widely available contraception.

I know which model I prefer.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #246 - June 23, 2009, 04:06 PM
Quote from: Cheetah on June 23, 2009, 02:09 PM
Except that's not quite true, is it?

Due to the severity of the war crimes committed by IG Farben during World War II, the company was considered to be too corrupt to be allowed to continue to exist. The Soviet Union seized most of IG Farben's assets located in the Soviet occupation zone (see Morgenthau Plan), as part of their reparation payments. The Western Allies however, in 1951, split the company up into its original constituent companies. The four largest quickly bought the smaller ones. Today only Agfa, BASF, and Bayer remain, Hoechst having in 1999 demerged its industrial chemical operations to Celanese AG and merged its life-sciences businesses with Rh?ne-Poulenc's to form Aventis.

Yep- so the I.G. Farben was their predecessor...Probably they even had the same stuff at the beginning- otherwise how could they find a whole new set of qualified labourers ?

Quote
So, to follow this doctor's mantra would mean abortion is murder, and even the morning after pill should be illegal. That's the situation in parts of Latin America, which has done so much to protect the right to life of the unborn that over half of all abortions carried out annually are carried out in Latin America. The Netherlands OTOH has liberal abortion laws and a low abortion rate, due to good sex education and widely available contraception.

I know which model I prefer.

How do you know that ?

If they are illegal who can count them ?

It is impossible...It is still the same manipulation:

Quote from: Dr Nathanson
We arousedenough sympathy to sell our program of permissive abortion by fabricating the number ofillegal abortions done annually in the U.S. The actual figure was approaching 100,000 but the figure we gave to the media repeatedly was 1,000,000. Repeating the big lie oftenenough convinces the public. The number of women dying from illegal abortions was around200-250 annually. The figure we constantly fed to the media was 10,000. These false figures took root in the consciousness of Americans convincing many that we needed to crack the abortion law.
[/pre]
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Re: Abortion?
Reply #247 - June 23, 2009, 04:35 PM

Firstly, M you can now post links on the forum, and I would prefer you did so I can read this doctor's comments in context, at source.

Quote
Yep- so the I.G. Farben was their predecessor...Probably they even had the same stuff at the beginning- otherwise how could they find a whole new set of qualified labourers ?

Same "stuff"? What like all the Nobel Prize winning chemists that helped them develop new antibiotics and chemotherapy treatments?

IG Farben scientists made fundamental contributions to all areas of chemistry. Otto Bayer discovered the polyaddition for the synthesis of polyurethane in 1937.[25] Several IG Farben scientists were awarded a Nobel Prize. Carl Bosch and Friedrich Bergius were awarded the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 1931 "in recognition of their contributions to the invention and development of chemical high pressure methods".[26] Gerhard Domagk was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1939 "for the discovery of the antibacterial effects of prontosil".[27] Kurt Alder was awarded the Nobel Prize in Chemistry (together with Otto Diels) in 1950 "for his [their] discovery and development of the diene synthesis".[28]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IG_Farben

Plus, its not even I.G. Farben's successors which make the abortion pill. One of the companies formed out of the liquidation of I.G. Farben is now a shareholder in a company which manufactures it. You're massively over simplifying it, with the obvious intention of trying to associate abortion with the Holocaust.

Quote
How do you know that ?

If they are illegal who can count them ?

It is impossible...It is still the same manipulation:

Actually, I quoted that from memory from a link I posted earlier in the thread, and now I've checked, my memory did play tricks on me. Its nearly half of all abortions carried out annually are carried out in countries where abortion is illegal/highly restricted.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/ib_0599.html

As you can see if you click on that link, the country with the world's lowest abortion rate is the Netherlands, which has very liberal abortion laws. In fact, western Europe in general has lower abortion rates than parts of the world where abortion is highly restricted, probly due to social welfare, sex education and available contraception.

As I said, I know which model I would prefer.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #248 - June 23, 2009, 05:29 PM

If abortion is indeed murder- then it is even worse than Holocaust...

The Consequences of Roe v. Wade
49,551,703
Total Abortions since 1973

the Roe vs Wade was manipulation ( it was not a rape)

....

that is the whole cycle of manipulation...

firstly children are encouraged to start making love (by movies, press, books- in general popular culture...so on...)

they use contraceptives- but: still some of them get pregnant

then: abortion

but- later in life they start a family and want children

then- due to use of contaceptives and/or abortion ...PROBLEM...

Solution: in vitro...

.the industry of "sexual health" first creates a problem and then provides a solution...very profitable indeed...
...

the data from your fundation ...how do you know they are truthful?

How can they count illegal abortions ?

Quote
Firstly, M you can now post links on the forum, and I would prefer you did so I can read this doctor's comments in context, at source.

http://www.aboutabortions.com/Confess.html

His movie "Silent scream" is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-n13m3AZdI

but it is a bit old...so I only gave a link so you can see he is a real person...

Here is a new one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xljooiSNVB0&feature=related
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Re: Abortion?
Reply #249 - June 23, 2009, 05:44 PM

Quote
that is the whole cycle of manipulation...

firstly children are encouraged to start making love (by movies, press, books- in general popular culture...so on...)

they use contraceptives- but: still some of them get pregnant

then: abortion

but- later in life they start a family and want children

then- due to use of contaceptives and/or abortion ...PROBLEM...

Solution: in vitro...

.the industry of "sexual health" first creates a problem and then provides a solution...very profitable indeed...
...

This is a ridiculous conspiracy theory. The whole media establishment is in collusion with the medical establishment to make people promiscuous, feed them contraceptives and abortions to make them infertile and then make money out of it.

Newsflash for you, M. Infertility, promiscuity, unwanted pregnancy and abortions all existed long before the media and medical establishments existed.

Quote
the data from your fundation ...how do you know they are truthful?

How can they count illegal abortions ?

Can I just point out the irony here? First you quote Dr Nathanson as saying...

Quote
We aroused enough sympathy to sell our program of permissive abortion by fabricating the number of illegal abortions done annually in the U.S. The actual figure was approaching 100,000 but the figure we gave to the media repeatedly was 1,000,000.

You apparently believe his figures for illegal abortions in the US pre-Roe vs. Wade, despite that he is a self-confessed liar, and then you appear to believe that it is impossible to count illegal abortions. Maybe you should ask Dr. Nathanson where he got his figure, or did he just make it up like he claims to have done with the first one?

Also, I see from your link that the doctor you are quoting is the maker of the long discredited 1984 film The Silent Scream, a film that falsely claimed that a 12 week old foetus can feel pain, and substituted images of full term embryos for first trimester embryos, among other lies.

So it seems to me that when Dr. Nathanson changed sides in the abortion debate, he did nothing to change his habit of telling lies.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #250 - June 23, 2009, 07:18 PM

Quote from: Cheetah on June 23, 2009, 05:44 PM
This is a ridiculous conspiracy theory. The whole media establishment is in collusion with the medical establishment to make people promiscuous, feed them contraceptives and abortions to make them infertile and then make money out of it.

Lol...I know...it sounds ridiculous but that is the truth...Some of the conspiracies are the truth...

Quote
Can I just point out the irony here? First you quote Dr Nathanson as saying...

You apparently believe his figures for illegal abortions in the US pre-Roe vs. Wade, despite that he is a self-confessed liar, and then you appear to believe that it is impossible to count illegal abortions. Maybe you should ask Dr. Nathanson where he got his figure, or did he just make it up like he claims to have done with the first one?

You are right - logic was never one of my strong points...

But I believe this guy...Watch the last video- he is bedridden, probably close to death and he called his NARAL activities the mistake of his life...

Only recently we discovered the fish actually feel pain...So that is possible that a foetus feels it too...
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Re: Abortion?
Reply #251 - June 23, 2009, 07:45 PM

Quote
Lol...I know...it sounds ridiculous but that is the truth...Some of the conspiracies are the truth...

No, it is total rubbish.

(See how easy it is to throw unsupported assertions around?)

Quote
You are right - logic was never one of my strong points...

But I believe this guy...Watch the last video- he is bedridden, probably close to death and he called his NARAL activities the mistake of his life...

This man seems to have spent his life lying on behalf of whatever cause he was part of. Some people are like that, if they care about something strongly enough, they rationalise their lies, they don't think its really wrong to lie on behalf of the "bigger truth." Dr Nathanson seems to be one of them, and I see no reason why he would change the habit of a lifetime on his death bed.

Quote
Only recently we discovered the fish actually feel pain...So that is possible that a foetus feels it too...

No, that doesn't follow. We already know that in humans a cerebral cortex (gray matter covering the brain), is needed for pain impulses to be received and perceived. We also know that in a human foetus this process begins around week 20 of foetal development, and that newborns at 24-25 weeks' fetal age who survive have significantly less response to pain than do full term newborns.

Even if we didn't know these things, even if they were as much of a grey area as the central nervous system of a fish was up till fairly recently, it would STILL have been a lie for Dr Nathanson to pretend that a 12 week old foetus can feel pain, as he does in the film you linked to. He lied about other things too - eg, saying that crushing instruments are needed to abort a foetus at that stage, saying that movements of an early stage foetus are purposeful, claiming that its mouth opens in a scream.

These have all been exposed as lies, M. They're not question marks that science doesn't yet have the answer to, unlike the questions we had until recently about fish.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #252 - June 26, 2009, 12:55 AM

Quote from: Cheetah on June 23, 2009, 02:09 PM
The Netherlands OTOH has liberal abortion laws and a low abortion rate, due to good sex education and widely available contraception.

I know which model I prefer.

I was thinking about this the other day. You asked me once if I believed abortion should be legal because statistically countries that permit abortion have fewer cases of abortion. I think it is most probable that the fewer cases of abortion in countries where it is legal is due to better sex education and widely available contraception, as you have state yourself here, not because abortion is legal. Anyway, you've answered your own question here, which makes me wonder why you asked it in the first place

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #253 - June 26, 2009, 03:44 AM

Because I wanted to know your answer to it, J4m3z. You gave your answer, it was very revealing, thank you.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #254 - June 26, 2009, 09:03 AM

Quote from: Cheetah on June 26, 2009, 03:44 AM
Because I wanted to know your answer to it, J4m3z. You gave your answer, it was very revealing, thank you.

Lol, well nice to know you realized it wasn't a serious challenge yet you were happy to use it as one if it was going to convince other people on the forum, which it did. Congratulations.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #255 - June 26, 2009, 03:56 PM

Quote from: J4m3z on June 26, 2009, 09:03 AM
Lol, well nice to know you realized it wasn't a serious challenge yet you were happy to use it as one if it was going to convince other people on the forum, which it did. Congratulations.

Oh, it was a serious challenge. You were banging on so dogmatically about the right to life of the unborn child, elevating it way above any concern such as the right to liberty of the women, even the right to self-determination of a rape victim, because a fertilised egg is a baybeee and its murder.

I just wanted to see if the baby would be so paramount when protecting its life clashed with one of your wishes. Now we know. Your "right" to have your prejudices written into law is more important to you than the right to life of the unborn child.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #256 - June 27, 2009, 10:32 PM

There is one really sad song about the unborn child called "Happy birthday"-

Please accept my apologies, wonder what would have been
Would you've been a little angel or an angel of sin?
Tom-boy running around, hanging with all the guys.
Or a little tough boy with beautiful brown eyes?

I payed for the murder before they determined the sex
Choosing our life over your life meant your death
And you never got'a chance to even open your eyes
Sometimes I wonder as a foetus if you faught for your life?

Would you have been a little genius in love with math?
Would you have played in your school clothes and made me mad?
Would you have been a little rapper like your papa da Piper?
Would you have made me quit smokin' by finding one of my lighters?
I wonder about your skintone and shape of your nose?

And the way you would have laughed and talked fast or slow?
Think about it every year, so I picked up a pen
Happy birthday, love you whoever you woulda been
Happy birthday...

I made a mistake!

I've got a millon excuses to why you died
Bet the people got their own reasons for homicide
Who's to say it woulda worked, and who's to say it wouldn't have?
I was young and strugglin' but old enough to be your dad

The fear of being my father has never disappeared
Pondering frequently while I'm sippin' on my beer
My vision of a family was artificial and fake
So when it came time to create I made a mistake

And from the heavens to the womb to the heavens again
From the endin' to the endin', never got to begin
Maybe one day we could meet face to face?
In a place without time and space
Happy birthday...

(...)
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Re: Abortion?
Reply #257 - June 30, 2009, 10:38 AM

Quote from: Cheetah on June 26, 2009, 03:56 PM
Oh, it was a serious challenge. You were banging on so dogmatically about the right to life of the unborn child, elevating it way above any concern such as the right to liberty of the women, even the right to self-determination of a rape victim, because a fertilised egg is a baybeee and its murder.

I just wanted to see if the baby would be so paramount when protecting its life clashed with one of your wishes. Now we know. Your "right" to have your prejudices written into law is more important to you than the right to life of the unborn child.

What the fucking hell are you on about?!?!

You tried using an argument against me which you just admitted wasn't a good one but instead you claim you used it to reveal an ulterior motive I was trying to hide and that you successfully exposed my prejudice.

You are full of

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #258 - July 01, 2009, 09:47 PM

Quote from: Tlaloc on June 04, 2009, 09:53 PM
What's your opinion about it?

Could you ever abort?
Could you ever help a friend/girlfriend/wife abort (moral support, economic support, whatever)?

I am very much involved in this issue in first person, so I would like to have the opinion of complete strangers from other cultures.

Thanks in advance <3

PS: this is a bit off topic since the forum is Women IN ISLAM, but since it's a quite feminine matter I thought I'd place it here anyway.

On Abortion i am 110% Pro Choice.
My right to my body and ultimately my womb is sovereign

Give me a right circumstance and i could abort and i have gone with and helped many of my friends to have a abortion. One of my best friends, Jenny had 3 Abortions before hitting 18 and i went with her to the clinic on all of them

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #259 - July 01, 2009, 10:32 PM

3 abortions before becoming 18?!?! Is that something to be proud about or something? That is quite simply careless!

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #260 - July 01, 2009, 10:34 PM

Meredith never claimed it was something to be proud of.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #261 - July 02, 2009, 01:12 AM

She doesn't have to explicitly say it, it is clear she has an element of pride that she managed to help an under 18 get an abortion 3 times; a murderous achievement.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #262 - July 02, 2009, 05:39 AM

So i didn't say anything about pride and you have acknowledged that .... So where does this apparent "being proud" of Abortions come from?

Would you rather i had chucked my friend to the curb? No. I have loyalty Jenny has been my friend since primary school and stuck by me, everyone has their mistakes.

There are millions of starving children in this world who was brought into it through no fault of their own and need a better life. Surely the Pro life [Read: Anti Choice] movement would change more lives and do more good by focusing on those kids that are already on this Earth instead of mourning those who weren't even born?

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #263 - July 02, 2009, 01:47 PM

Trying to divert the attention of Pro-Lifers (Read: More Pro-Choice than Pro-Choice) onto another issue? Nasty trick... And anyway is that what you do then, only concentrate on a single issue your whole life? What's wrong with concentrating on more than one issue?

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #264 - July 02, 2009, 08:47 PM

Come off it James. That "Pro-Lifers (Read: More Pro-Choice than Pro-Choice)" is a joke, right? I mean nobody who argues that abortion should be permissible is arguing that anything else should not be permissible. Ergo, they have to be more "pro-choice" than the "pro-lifers" because they are arguing for an additional choice that the "pro-lifers" would deny people.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #265 - July 03, 2009, 10:25 AM

Osmanthus... I am deadly serious.

I accept that Pro-Lifers suppress choice in the sense that a woman's choice to kill her child is taken away from her, but this is a consequence of the Libertarian harm principle which I am all for; there is supression, but only to counter-act supression.

Pro-Choicers suppress every single choice that the unborn child could ever make by killing him/her and you make that crystal clear when you say ""it" doesn't get a choice".

The state is supposed to protect us, but there is a period in our lives where the state will not give a damn about us... when we are still in our mother's womb.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #266 - July 03, 2009, 02:56 PM

I am pro-choice, i.e. as long as the foetus is not viable.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #267 - July 03, 2009, 06:22 PM

Quote from: J4m3z on July 03, 2009, 10:25 AM
The state is supposed to protect us, but there is a period in our lives where the state will not give a damn about us... when we are still in our mother's womb.

The state does protect a foetus when it is viable, 24 weeks according to the law of the land.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #268 - July 03, 2009, 08:12 PM

So 24 weeks is the magical line is it? As soon as he/she gets to 24 weeks he/she is capable of living outside of the womb, not a second later nor earlier?

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #269 - July 03, 2009, 08:14 PM

Techology has not progressed to the extent in which a foetus can survive with high probability past the 24 week stage, there are rare cases in which it occurs but not enough to trigger a re vote in the House of Commons.

The Abortion and Embryology bill debate had all these issues and the main issue of viability was confirmed by the BMA as not justifying the law being changed.

The 24 week will change as medicine and science progresses, the limit will get lowered slowly from 24 to perhaps 22/20 in a matter of years.

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