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Theme Changer

 Topic: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again

 (Read 50502 times)
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  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #150 - June 28, 2009, 12:07 PM

    Pat Condell has made avideo about this, and everything he says is right:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlkxlzTZc48

    The Burka / Niqab is NOT an expression of religion. It does not say in the Quran that a woman has to wear these clothes to be Muslim.

    The Burkha / Niqab will never be welcomed in Western culture, and there is no reason why we should submit to welcome it. It should have been banned a long long time ago. If you want to wear the Burka / Niqab, you may as well stay in an oppressive Sharia ruled country where you will fit in just fine.

    We keep hearing about how Jack Straw or the French government have mentioned the veil and our doing so puts us in the same boat as them. How so? I want a ban on the burka, neqab and child veiling.

    you can either defend women or you must defend Islam. You can’t defend both

    - Maryam Namaze
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #151 - June 28, 2009, 12:20 PM

    Pat Condell has made avideo about this, and everything he says is right:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlkxlzTZc48

    The Burka / Niqab is NOT an expression of religion. It does not say in the Quran that a woman has to wear these clothes to be Muslim.

    The Burkha / Niqab will never be welcomed in Western culture, and there is no reason why we should submit to welcome it. It should have been banned a long long time ago. If you want to wear the Burka / Niqab, you may as well stay in an oppressive Sharia ruled country where you will fit in just fine.


    Yep, and I addressed his bullshit in Hassan's thread. There's no way around it-- if you support a ban on the burqua, you support an authoritarian state, and you do NOT truly believe in free exercise of religion, free speech/expression of ideas, or free association. Make all the arguments you want-- if you support this kind of state intervention than you are an enemy of free society, maybe not as much so as the Islamists, but you still share their goal of having the state force ideas and social practices upon people.

    fuck you
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #152 - June 28, 2009, 12:52 PM

    There's no way around it-- if you support a ban on the burqua, you support an authoritarian state, and you do NOT truly believe in free exercise of religion, free speech/expression of ideas, or free association. Make all the arguments you want-- if you support this kind of state intervention than you are an enemy of free society, maybe not as much so as the Islamists, but you still share their goal of having the state force ideas and social practices upon people.

     Believe that crap

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #153 - June 28, 2009, 01:14 PM

    Believe that crap


    I absolutely do. I believe in freedom from state repression even when it is distasteful, inconvenient, and difficult-- even in cases where the "greater good" on a particular issue might be better served by state violations of people's rights and liberties.

    You either support rights against unjustifiable state intervention in personal affairs unconditionally or you don't, and once you've started putting conditions on free exercise of rights that do not directly and immediately violate another's rights, then you're effectively saying you don't really believe in rights because rights are not conditional on anything but respecting the rights of another-- that's what makes them "rights", not mere liberties or privileges. Of course, those who consider themselves liberal, don't really like to think of themselves as not respecting rights, so they try to justify the violation by saying they are not rights, which leads to some, erm, let's say "creative" to be kind, arguments like-- being against a state ban on burquas is equivalent to favoring the legalization of murdering homosexuals.

    fuck you
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #154 - June 28, 2009, 01:27 PM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    You either support rights against unjustifiable state intervention in personal affairs unconditionally or you don't

    Actually, no. Nobody is black and white to such an extreme scale. I am neither a fringe libertarian, nor do I support despotic authotarianism.

    Quote from: Q-Man
    Of course, those who consider themselves liberal, don't really like to think of themselves as not respecting rights, so they try to justify the violation by saying they are not rights

    Do you even begin to realise how much this qualification applies to you? The hijab is imposed upon women. You are trying to bring far-fetched arguments of religious freedom, while regurgitating Islamist rhetoric about how women choose to wear the veil themselves, to justify your injustifiable position. So much for your libertarianism.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #155 - June 28, 2009, 01:36 PM

    Do you even begin to realise how much this qualification applies to you? The hijab is imposed upon women. You are trying to bring far-fetched arguments of religious freedom, while regurgitating Islamist rhetoric about how women choose to wear the veil themselves, to justify your injustifiable position. So much for your libertarianism.


    It is incorrect to say the hijab is imposed upon women. It is also incorrect to say that women who wear the veil choose to wear it themselves, but I don't think Q-Man was saying that. The reality is somewhere in the middle, there are plenty of women who have a veil or headscarf imposed on them but there are also many women who choose to wear it. If the veil is banned, although you may be helping women on whom it is being imposed, you are also infringing on the rights of women who choose to wear it. I don't know what the answer is, but it will not be straightforward, and simply saying to "ban the veil" is not straightforward at all and will not work.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #156 - June 28, 2009, 01:41 PM

    Actually, no. Nobody is black and white to such an extreme scale. I am neither a fringe libertarian, nor do I support despotic authotarianism.


    That's right-- you support selective authoritarianism. Problem is the state, by its nature, is not selective about imposing its authority. A lot of people think they can give the beast this or that power for a limited time, for a limited purpose to serve the common good, but the reality is that the beast just keeps taking more and more until almost all personal conduct is regulated by the state. Now that doesn't necessarily mean it will be a totalitarian dystopia, but your rights will be heavily restricted and your conduct highly regulated. The UK's a hell of a lot closer to that than I'd ever be comfortable with and my country has been slowly moving there too, and I don't like the direction it's going one bit.

    Quote
    Do you even begin to realise how much this qualification applies to you? The hijab is imposed upon women. You are trying to bring far-fetched arguments of religious freedom, while regurgitating Islamist rhetoric about how women choose to wear the veil themselves, to justify your injustifiable position. So much for your libertarianism.


    See my response to you on the "Ban the Burka/Niqab" thread. By the way, can we limit the debate to one thread? I'll let you pick which one.

    fuck you
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #157 - June 28, 2009, 01:46 PM

    Quote from: aliadiere
    If the veil is banned, although you may be helping women on whom it is being imposed, you are also infringing on the rights of women who choose to wear it.

    Yeah, but even the women "who choose to wear the hijab" do so because of the patriarchal culture surrounding them. They breathe the stench of a culture which, according to Allah's law, assigns them a clearly inferior status (and appoints their husbands as their guardians.)

    Personally, I don't think the headscarf should be banned on the streets, but the burqa/niqab is a much more extreme version. As such, the percentage of women wearing it willingly will be much smaller than the percentage of women wearing it unwillingly.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #158 - June 28, 2009, 01:50 PM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    Problem is the state, by its nature, is not selective about imposing its authority. A lot of people think they can give the beast this or that power for a limited time, for a limited purpose to serve the common good, but the reality is that the beast just keeps taking more and more until almost all personal conduct is regulated by the state.

    I think your anarchist reveries are totally irrelevant in this debate. Also, you seem to be forgetting the fact that the mobs and the populace can be just as tyrannical as the state.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #159 - June 28, 2009, 02:00 PM

    I think your anarchist reveries are totally irrelevant in this debate.


    You opened the door, counselor, when your smiley proxy asked me if I really "believed that shit". And I'm not an anarchist-- an anarchist would not support any state, whereas I support a state with limited powers, making me a minarchist.

    Quote
    Also, you seem to be forgetting the fact that the mobs and the populace can be just as tyrannical as the state.


    I'm not forgetting that. If the populace imposes its will through force then it is the role of the state to protect the individual from having their rights violated by physical violence from the mob. But if a community wishes to impose certain values/morals through social pressure, it is the sovereign and collective right of a people to do so-- it is also, through the right of free association, the right of any individual to leave the community if they choose to defy these values and cannot bear the social consequences of doing so-- and it is the responsibility of the state to ensure this right can be exercised.

    fuck you
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #160 - June 28, 2009, 02:03 PM

    Yep, and I addressed his bullshit in Hassan's thread. There's no way around it-- if you support a ban on the burqua, you support an authoritarian state, and you do NOT truly believe in free exercise of religion, free speech/expression of ideas, or free association. Make all the arguments you want-- if you support this kind of state intervention than you are an enemy of free society, maybe not as much so as the Islamists, but you still share their goal of having the state force ideas and social practices upon people.


    And I'll address your bullshit right here.

    The Burka IS NOT a religious requirement for Muslims.

    The Quran does not say that a woman has to cover up her face.

    And yes, I do 100% completely believe in banning religion from state, education, and public. Feel free to practice your religion at home and in your church / mosque / temple. But keep it out of the state if you choose to live in a secular country.

    The burqa is not an expression of free speech or anything liberal, it is the complete opposite to that.

    No ones face should ever be covered up in public places. End of discussion for me.

    We keep hearing about how Jack Straw or the French government have mentioned the veil and our doing so puts us in the same boat as them. How so? I want a ban on the burka, neqab and child veiling.

    you can either defend women or you must defend Islam. You can’t defend both

    - Maryam Namaze
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #161 - June 28, 2009, 02:12 PM

    And I'll address your bullshit right here.

    The Burka IS NOT a religious requirement for Muslims.

    The Quran does not say that a woman has
    Quote
    to cover up her face.

    And yes, I do 100% completely believe in banning religion from state, education, and public. Feel free to practice your religion at home and in your church / mosque / temple. But keep it out of the state if you choose to live in a secular country.

    The burqa is not an expression of free speech or anything liberal, it is the complete opposite to that.

    No ones face should ever be covered up in public places. End of discussion for me.

    Exactly. I find it difficult to understand why some people can even tolerate, let alone justify, the gender terrorism of the Islamic dress-code (and in the name of personal rights, mind you.)

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #162 - June 28, 2009, 02:26 PM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    I'm not forgetting that. If the populace imposes its will through force then it is the role of the state to protect the individual from having their rights violated by physical violence from the mob. But if a community wishes to impose certain values/morals through social pressure, it is the sovereign and collective right of a people to do so-- it is also, through the right of free association, the right of any individual to leave the community if they choose to defy these values and cannot bear the social consequences of doing so-- and it is the responsibility of the state to ensure this right can be exercised.

    You are forgetting that, sadly. Otherwise, you wouldn't dare to repeat Islamist rhetoric about women donning the hijab/niqab willingly. Hijab is the creation of a violent and discriminatory culture in the first place.

     And violence/oppression isn't always strictly physical. There are many women who have to suffer constant emotional abuse, even if they are free from any physical assaults. Reading through your posts, I'm very glad that people like you are seldom allowed to seize any power. The Far Left is marginalised for a good reason.

    Do you think the evangelical Christians in the United States have the natural rights to spread and impose homophobia, taunt and abuse homosexuals as long as it is accomplished without physical violence, harass and marginalise drug-users, teach and spread the ideas of creationism, and harass abortion clinics through "social pressure?" Do you think white supremacists have the natural rights to harass black people, gays, and Mexican immigrants as long as strict physical violence is not reported? Do you think white supremacist employers should be allowed to impose racist symbols on their black employees?

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #163 - June 28, 2009, 03:05 PM

    Otherwise, you wouldn't dare to repeat Islamist rhetoric about women donning the hijab/niqab willingly.


    Horseshit. You always pull this shit, Zaephon. At some point in the argument you suggest that the person you are arguing against is somehow supporting an Islamist agenda because they fail to agree with you. While you're at it you wanna pull the Nazi card again as well? There's no reason you need to limit that card to poison the well when any criticism of Israel occurs-- the internet is replete with examples of people using the card in all kinds of debates/disputes.

    Quote
    Hijab is the creation of a violent and discriminatory culture in the first place.


    Yeah, I know. The sky is blue-- I know that one too.

    Quote
    And violence/oppression isn't always strictly physical.


    Oppression-- no. Violence, uh, yeah physical force is actually intrinsic to the definition of violence (unless you are using violence in its alternate sense, meaning "to defame").

    Quote
    There are many women who have to suffer constant emotional abuse, even if they are free from any physical assaults.


    Emotional abuse should not necessarily be criminalized. In certain circumstances it should be-- if there is an implicit threat of violence accompanying the emotional abuse for example.

    Quote
    Reading through your posts, I'm very glad that people like you are seldom allowed to seize any power.


    And reading through yours it reminds me what elevation of the state and devaluing of personal freedoms has brought my own country to-- the highest incarceration rate in the world, violence, poverty, neurosis, and social alienation. We could stand fewer of your kind in power.

    Quote
    The Far Left is marginalised for a good reason.


    Yes, radicals of any ideological persuasion are often marginalized because their ideas represent a threat to the existing social, political and economic order.

    Quote
    Do you think the evangelical Christians in the United States have the natural rights to spread and impose homophobia,


    Yes to spreading homophobia-- I oppose any laws that restrict the expression of ideas unless it is an immediate and direct incitement to violence, and you'll have to clarify what you mean by imposing homophobia.

    Quote
    taunt and abuse homosexuals as long as it is accomplished without physical violence,


    Depends on what you mean by "abuse". A specific example would be helpful.

    Quote
    harass and marginalise drug-users, teach and spread the ideas of creationism, and harass abortion clinics through "social pressure?" Do you think white supremacists have the natural rights to harass black people, gays, and Mexican immigrants as long as strict physical violence is not reported?


    You'll have to define what you mean by "harass" a little better. Again, specific examples would be very helpful. Some forms of harassment rise to the level of an infringement upon rights and should be criminalized, others do not.

    Quote
    Do you think white supremacist employers should be allowed to impose racist symbols on their black employees?


    No. But the question is who should stop them, how and under what circumstances. Actually that goes for most of what you just said.

    I do not believe the state is the proper vehicle for achieving social justice, and so far as it is used for such, it should do so in the manner least injurous to personal freedom.

    fuck you
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #164 - June 28, 2009, 03:43 PM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    Horseshit. You always pull this shit, Zaephon. At some point in the argument you suggest that the person you are arguing against is somehow supporting an Islamist agenda because they fail to agree with you.

    No, I don't think you are an Islamist, of course. I'm saying that you regurgitate Islamist rhetoric, which you do. And in this particular point, you happen to agree with Islamists, your rationale notwithstanding.

    Quote from: Q-Man
    No. But the question is who should stop them, how and under what circumstances. Actually that goes for most of what you just said.

    Sorry, most people do not share your "minarchist" views. I think the state, as the collective will of the people, has a duty to oppose discrimination. The state is usually just a mirror image of the people. If the society is advanced, so will be their state. If not, vice versa.

    Quote from: Q-Man
    And reading through yours it reminds me what elevation of the state and devaluing of personal freedoms has brought my own country to-- the highest incarceration rate in the world, violence, poverty, neurosis, and social alienation. We could stand fewer of your kind in power.

    I thought the United States is an evil entity because of capitalism?

    Quote from: Q-Man
    and you'll have to clarify what you mean by imposing homophobia.

    If evangelical Christians, through social pressure only, would compel women or GLBT people to wear distinctive and restrictive symbols, would you oppose that?

    Quote from: Q-Man
    I do not believe the state is the proper vehicle for achieving social justice, and so far as it is used for such, it should do so in the manner least injurous to personal freedom.

    I asked you to provide alternatives to the ban on Islamic veil. Who will guarantee the rights of Muslim women? Who will liberate the women who are powerful enough to oppose Islamic patriarchy as individuals?

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #165 - June 28, 2009, 04:12 PM

    I'm saying that you regurgitate Islamist rhetoric, which you do.


    I repeat, horseshit.

    Quote
    Sorry, most people do not share your "minarchist" views.


    So that makes them wrong? In the US there's still a sizable minority that have minarchist views.

    Quote
    I thought the United States is an evil entity because of capitalism?


    What is it with the anti-"leftist" crowd on this board constantly putting words in my mouth? Where did I say that?

    Quote
    If evangelical Christians, through social pressure only, would compel women or GLBT people to wear distinctive and restrictive symbols, would you oppose that?


    What sort of social pressure?

    Quote
    I asked you to provide alternatives to the ban on Islamic veil. Who will guarantee the rights of Muslim women? Who will liberate the women who are powerful enough to oppose Islamic patriarchy as individuals?


    I did that in the other thread, though I haven't read your response yet. Let me go look now.

    fuck you
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #166 - June 28, 2009, 04:22 PM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    What sort of social pressure?

    Exactly the kind of social pressure that Muslim (and apostate) women have to endure.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #167 - June 28, 2009, 04:32 PM

    Exactly the kind of social pressure that Muslim (and apostate) women have to endure.


    The sort of social pressure they must endure in the West? You mean like estrangement and enmity from their family and/or community? Yes, people have the right to reject and hate those that do not conform to their value system. Just like if your best friend decided to become a devout Islamist one day, you have the right to call him an asshole and vow never to speak with him again and encourage your friends and family to do the same.

    If you mean harassment or emotional abuse where an implicit threat of violence exists, then I think I addressed that several times in this thread-- no, people do not have a right to do that.

    But if someone wants to stand on the sidewalk and rail against the "evil" of homosexuality, yes, that's their right to do so. And if some woman's husband finds out they had a lesbian affair, and he and the local preacher demand the woman wear a pink triangle or else be shunned from the community, that is an exercise of their rights (a shameful and hateful one, but a right all the same), just as it is the right of that woman to say, "Well, fuck you guys, then. I'm gonna move to Jamaica Plain and munch carpet full-time if that's your attitude"

    fuck you
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #168 - June 28, 2009, 04:46 PM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    But if someone wants to stand on the sidewalk and rail against the "evil" of homosexuality, yes, that's their right to do so. And if some woman's husband finds out they had a lesbian affair, and he and the local preacher demand the woman wear a pink triangle or else be shunned from the community, that is an exercise of their rights (a shameful and hateful one, but a right all the same), just as it is the right of that woman to say, "Well, fuck you guys, then. I'm gonna move to Jamaica Plain and munch carpet full-time if that's your attitude"

    Irrelevant "pink triangle" analogy. In this example, A) the woman is guilty of betraying her husband's trust, B) the woman is an isolated individual suffering from this discrimination, C) there is no violent and oppressive culture preaching that she is inferior to all males and that she must have a male guardian at all times, D) most Muslim women do not have the option of moving to Jamaica Plain.

    So much for your trivialisation of Islamic tyranny. And in most cases of hijab indoctrination, the threat of violence is subtle and implicit, if not carried out directly. You cannot incarcerate people for making religious threats that --usually-- nobody else can witness. Unless you want to install vast cameras everywhere, in Big Brother style.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #169 - June 28, 2009, 04:56 PM

    Irrelevant "pink triangle" analogy. In this example, A) the woman is guilty of betraying her husband's trust, B) the woman is an isolated individual suffering from this discrimination, C) there is no violent and oppressive culture preaching that she is inferior to all males and that she must have a male guardian at all times, D) most Muslim women do not have the option of moving to Jamaica Plain.

    So much for your trivialisation of Islamic tyranny. And in most cases of hijab indoctrination, the threat of violence is subtle and implicit, if not carried out directly. You cannot incarcerate people for making religious threats that --usually-- nobody else can witness. Unless you want to install vast cameras everywhere, in Big Brother style.


    YOU are the one who asked about homosexuals being socially pressured by Evangelical Christians into wearing identifying symbols, then you accuse ME of trivializing things and making an "irrelevant analogy" simply because I answered YOUR fucking question? I'm going back to my original sig line here. When in doubt as to how I feel about the bullshit you pull here on a regular basis, please feel free to read it.

    fuck you
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #170 - June 28, 2009, 05:43 PM

    YOU are the one who asked about homosexuals being socially pressured by Evangelical Christians into wearing identifying symbols, then you accuse ME of trivializing things and making an "irrelevant analogy" simply because I answered YOUR fucking question? I'm going back to my original sig line here. When in doubt as to how I feel about the bullshit you pull here on a regular basis, please feel free to read it.

    Hah. Are you even serious? I was essentially asking you what your reaction to an American version of the oppressive hijab culture would be, i.e. where the victims are not women but gays, and where the perpetrators are not Muslims but Christians, and you came up with a fancy example to demonstrate that some fancy kinds of discrimination are acceptable in your eyes. It was nowhere near to reflecting the plight of Muslim women.

    As for your pipe-dreams about a minarchist state providing social services to combat the oppression of Muslim women, what are you smoking? Minarchism tries to achieve the smallest state possible. You claim to be a minarchist, and you draw justification from this self-label to criticise the ban on the Islamic veil, and then you provide a solution which directly contradicts your "minarchist" stance. And when I point this out, you get angry. Why? You cannot claim to defend rein-free libertarianism in one paragraph, and not-so-free libertarianism in another.

    And it was you who tried to nullify (or ignore) the middle ground between authoritarianism and libertarianism, which almost every single country on Earth adheres to (with the exception of North Korea etc.) saying that only rein-free libertarianism is your type of thing.

    In my opinion, every state must have social services to combat the oppression of, and discrimination against, women. But I am NOT a minarchist.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #171 - June 28, 2009, 06:36 PM

    Qman have you hear of Fadela Amara ? She started the movement in France :" Ni putes Ni soumises ( Neither whores nor submissives)

    Quote
    The movement fights against violence targeting women and it focuses on these areas:

    Gang-rapes
    Pressure to wear the hijab
    Pressure to drop out of school
    Pressure to marry early without being able to choose the husband.
    NPNS was set up by a group of young French Muslim women, in response to the violence being directed at them in the suburbs (banlieues) and housing estates (cit?s) of cities such as Paris, Lyon and Toulouse, where rape and violence towards women have occurred at relatively high rates. Samira Bellil described in a CNN Interview a trial in Lille following the gang rape of a 13-year-old girl by 80 men.[2]

    The slogan used by the movement is meant both to shock and mobilise. Members particularly protest against changes of attitudes toward women, reputedly due to an increased influence of radical Islam in those French suburbs that are mostly inhabited by people of Maghreb and black African origin. A particular concern is the treatment of Muslim women, who may be pressured into wearing veils, leaving school, and marrying early. However, the movement represents women of all faiths and ethnic origins, all of whom may find themselves trapped by poverty and the ghettoisation of the cit?s.


    Bolding is mine

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni_Putes_Ni_Soumises


    Quote
    French minister denounces burka 
     
    Ms Amara is a French-born Muslim of Algerian parentage
    A Muslim member of the French government has backed a court's decision to deny citizenship to a Moroccan woman who wears the burka.

    Urban Affairs Minister Fadela Amara said she hoped last month's ruling would "dissuade certain fanatics from imposing the burka on their wives".

    She told the newspaper, Le Parisien, the head-to-toe garment was a "prison".

    The Moroccan woman, Faiza M, was told that her practice of "radical" Islam was not compatible with French values.

    The 32-year-old, who has lived in France since 2000 with her husband - a French national - and their three French-born children, said she had never challenged the country's fundamental values.

    Social services reports said the burka-wearing Faiza M lived in "total submission to her male relatives".

    'Straitjacket'

    Ms Amara, who is a French-born Muslim of Algerian parentage, said she supported the ruling in June by France's highest administrative court, the Conseil d'Etat.
                       
    "The burka is a prison, it's a straitjacket," she told Le Parisien.

    "It is not a religious insignia but the insignia of a totalitarian political project that advocates inequality between the sexes and which is totally devoid of democracy."


    The minister said she hoped the court's ruling might in future "dissuade certain fanatics from imposing the burka on their wives".

    Ms Amara, who is also a prominent women's rights campaigner, said she made no distinction between the veil and the burka, describing both as symbols of oppression for women.

    "It's just a question of centimetres of fabric," she added.

     

    Bolding is mine

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7509339.stm

    This is the fate of one girl who stood up to the oppressors

    Quote
    Sohane Benziane was murdered twice. In October 2002, the 17-year-old Muslim girl was doused with gasoline and burned alive by a local gang leader in the dingy utility room of a housing project in the Paris suburb of Vitry-sur-Seine. Her crime: refusing to obey him. When the accused killer brought police back to the project to re-enact the crime for them, he was greeted with cheers by young men from the complex ? a symbolic second killing that horrified French citizens.


    It didn?t do her much good, that Society subsequently punnished the perpetrator.
     

    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #172 - June 28, 2009, 07:15 PM

    Quote
    Sohane Benziane was murdered twice. In October 2002, the 17-year-old Muslim girl was doused with gasoline and burned alive by a local gang leader in the dingy utility room of a housing project in the Paris suburb of Vitry-sur-Seine. Her crime: refusing to obey him. When the accused killer brought police back to the project to re-enact the crime for them, he was greeted with cheers by young men from the complex ? a symbolic second killing that horrified French citizens.

    Exactly.

    1. Not all Muslim women are strong enough to oppose their oppressors.
    2. Those who are strong enough to do so are still under serious threat.
    3. There is a very real culture demonising such women, through religion.

    Opposing the ban on Islamic veil due to liberal/libertarian concerns is oxymoronic.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #173 - June 28, 2009, 08:25 PM

    The sort of social pressure they must endure in the West? You mean like estrangement and enmity from their family and/or community? Yes, people have the right to reject and hate those that do not conform to their value system. Just like if your best friend decided to become a devout Islamist one day, you have the right to call him an asshole and vow never to speak with him again and encourage your friends and family to do the same.

    If you mean harassment or emotional abuse where an implicit threat of violence exists, then I think I addressed that several times in this thread-- no, people do not have a right to do that.

    But if someone wants to stand on the sidewalk and rail against the "evil" of homosexuality, yes, that's their right to do so. And if some woman's husband finds out they had a lesbian affair, and he and the local preacher demand the woman wear a pink triangle or else be shunned from the community, that is an exercise of their rights (a shameful and hateful one, but a right all the same), just as it is the right of that woman to say, "Well, fuck you guys, then. I'm gonna move to Jamaica Plain and munch carpet full-time if that's your attitude"


    Wow Qman, just wow.

    Not one single person has the right to reject or hate people who do not follow their beliefs. It is this specific attitude why so many people dislike muslims due to their intolerance of anyone that is different to then. 
    No one has the right to verbally abuse and harass another person for any means, yet of course this tactic is commonly used by many religious men to get their wives and family to submit to their authority.

    Your beliefs and statements are far more terrible then people who want to uncover an oppressed womans face.

    And the woman has been oppressed and controlled in someway to make her wear the veil, again, no free liberal woman who has lived a secular and decent life will choose to cover her face.   

    The only horseshit in this discussion is your beliefs and opinions. Covering up your face with a burka is not a free choice, seriously, if it was then many men would also be choosing to wear one because they feel like doing so out of free will and choice.


    We keep hearing about how Jack Straw or the French government have mentioned the veil and our doing so puts us in the same boat as them. How so? I want a ban on the burka, neqab and child veiling.

    you can either defend women or you must defend Islam. You can’t defend both

    - Maryam Namaze
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #174 - June 29, 2009, 10:17 AM

    Not one single person has the right to reject or hate people who do not follow their beliefs. It is this specific attitude why so many people dislike muslims due to their intolerance of anyone that is different to then.

    People have the right the hate and reject whatever they want. If you believe in freedom of expression how can you deny this?

    No one has the right to verbally abuse and harass another person for any means, yet of course this tactic is commonly used by many religious men to get their wives and family to submit to their authority.

    I'm for freedom of speech, so i'm going to have to disagree with this comment. I'll ask a question, do you believe in these hate speech laws that are poping up all over europe and other parts of the western world?

    And the woman has been oppressed and controlled in someway to make her wear the veil.

    While i have no doubt some women are forced into wearing the veil, taking away the right to wear a veil is just as oppressive to women who choose to wear the one.

    The only horseshit in this discussion is your beliefs and opinions. Covering up your face with a burka is not a free choice, seriously, if it was then many men would also be choosing to wear one because they feel like doing so out of free will and choice.

    While the west does have a problem with Islam, acting in an authoritarian manner will not help the situation. This agrument all boils down to whether the state should have the power to dictate what we can or can't wear. And I'm not a statist so i would have to disagree with this position.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #175 - June 29, 2009, 11:04 AM

    Quote
    People have the right the hate and reject whatever they want. If you believe in freedom of expression how can you deny this?


    Hatred of people based on religious beliefs or atheism
     is illegal in the UK. For example, you cannot kick someone out of a school / home / employment or public group based on their religious belief or lack of religion, nor say aything abusive to someone on these grounds without breaking the law:

    Quote
    It is against the law to discriminate against someone because of their religion or belief. This applies:
    when you buy or use goods and services
    at work
    in education
    in housing.


    This also extends to protect atheists:

    Quote
    You are protected by law from discrimination because of your religion or belief if you:
    belong to an organised religion such as Christianity, Judaism or Islam
    have a profound belief which affects your way of life or view of the world, such as humanism
    take part in collective worship
    belong to a smaller religion or sect, such as Scientology or Rastafarianism
    have no religion, for example, if you are an atheist.


    Other protected groups towards which hate speech is not allowed is race, gender, sexuality, and age. I do not in anyway disagree that people should not be using any kind of hateful speech towards another person.



    Quote
    I'm for freedom of speech, so i'm going to have to disagree with this comment. I'll ask a question, do you believe in these hate speech laws that are poping up all over europe and other parts of the western world?


    Of course I do. Hate speech which promotes harm or violence towards other groups is wrong and is rightfully legalised. However, religious people unfortunately still have the right to promote hate speech if it is taken out of their holy book, but if you say anything hateful towards religion, you would be breaking the law and potentially sued and have action taken against you. Freedom of speech does not give you a right to verbally abuse or harass anyone else, freedom of speech means that you can speak your mind without causing emotional harm to anyone else.


    Quote
    While i have no doubt some women are forced into wearing the veil, taking away the right to wear a veil is just as oppressive to women who choose to wear the one.


    And if you choose to wear the veil, then feel free to live in an Islamic country, not in a Secular one.


    Quote
    While the west does have a problem with Islam, acting in an authoritarian manner will not help the situation. This agrument all boils down to whether the state should have the power to dictate what we can or can't wear. And I'm not a statist so i would have to disagree with this position.


    Banning the burka / niqab is not an attack against Islam, it is because we dont women in our modern and secular countries concealing their faces. If you are going to argue that wearing the veil is a free right, then I call bullshit because if it was, some men would also be choosing to wear it. It is only women that are required to conceal their faces, this is not fair or equal. If you want to ever one day have both men and women treated equally in Islam, then either they would both be wearing the veil, or neither men nor women would be required to wear it.


    We keep hearing about how Jack Straw or the French government have mentioned the veil and our doing so puts us in the same boat as them. How so? I want a ban on the burka, neqab and child veiling.

    you can either defend women or you must defend Islam. You can’t defend both

    - Maryam Namaze
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #176 - June 29, 2009, 03:23 PM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    Horseshit. You always pull this shit, Zaephon. At some point in the argument you suggest that the person you are arguing against is somehow supporting an Islamist agenda because they fail to agree with you.

    Now, let's see who's doing that. Wake up and smell the bullshit of your own posts, Q-Man. Wading through your posts, I've come across these gems of priceless wisdom:

    Quote from: Q-Man
    You could make an argument about hijab on kids in public schools, and I probably wouldn't buy it, but I at least think it's a reasonable argument to make-- but what an adult woman wants to wear in public? If you support a ban on that than you are nothing but an authoritarian who supports the repression of the free exercise of a particular religion. You would be better than the Islamists in terms of the breadth of what you would restrict and severity of punishment for violation of these restrictions, but at your core you would share the same motivation as the Islamists-- forcing your beliefs on other people and restricting their individual choices through the coercive power of the state. Fuck that. Anyone who supports that shit can espouse all the liberal motivations they want, but the power they would grant the state over people's individual choice which do not directly and immediately infringe on another's rights makes them an enemy of freedom.

    Quote from: Q-Man
    Make all the arguments you want-- if you support this kind of state intervention than you are an enemy of free society, maybe not as much so as the Islamists, but you still share their goal of having the state force ideas and social practices upon people.

    Quote from: Q-Man
    Mr. Condell is obviously a liberal statist-- someone who wants to correct social oppression through state oppression. Which may make him better than the Islamists, but like them, he's still an authoritarian bastard.


    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #177 - June 29, 2009, 03:53 PM

    the pot & the kettle?

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  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #178 - June 29, 2009, 04:47 PM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    the pot & the kettle?

    Kind of. I didn't whine the way Q-Man did about the comparison, though. I just refuted him. Nor did I call him "Q-dog."

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #179 - June 29, 2009, 04:50 PM

    Hah. Are you even serious? I was essentially asking you what your reaction to an American version of the oppressive hijab culture would be, i.e. where the victims are not women but gays, and where the perpetrators are not Muslims but Christians, and you came up with a fancy example to demonstrate that some fancy kinds of discrimination are acceptable in your eyes. It was nowhere near to reflecting the plight of Muslim women.

    As for your pipe-dreams about a minarchist state providing social services to combat the oppression of Muslim women, what are you smoking? Minarchism tries to achieve the smallest state possible. You claim to be a minarchist, and you draw justification from this self-label to criticise the ban on the Islamic veil, and then you provide a solution which directly contradicts your "minarchist" stance. And when I point this out, you get angry. Why? You cannot claim to defend rein-free libertarianism in one paragraph, and not-so-free libertarianism in another.

    And it was you who tried to nullify (or ignore) the middle ground between authoritarianism and libertarianism, which almost every single country on Earth adheres to (with the exception of North Korea etc.) saying that only rein-free libertarianism is your type of thing.

    In my opinion, every state must have social services to combat the oppression of, and discrimination against, women. But I am NOT a minarchist.


    You are probably arrogant enough to believe this.

    I'm sure this will fall on deaf ears, but:

    1. You asked a hypothetical question using the example of gay people being forced to wear symbols by Christians. I asked for clarification, then attempted to answer the question based on certain enumerated conditions, and after I did, you then told me that I was trivializing the oppression of Muslim women by using an "irrelevant analogy"-- YOUR irrelevant analogy. Anyway you slice it, that's a dickhead thing to pull.

    2. When you challenged my belief in the state providing social services as being incompatible with my minarchist beliefs, I didn't get angry at all-- I simply linked you to posts where I had discussed this topic before. Here's the post you're referring to: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=5810.msg147764#msg147764 I fail to see the "anger" you insist I showed.

    3. I never get upset with you when you challenge my ideas. Indeed, I welcome intelligent and respectful challenges of my opinions, which you, among others here, often provide-- I'm not a fan of echo-chambers, they're boring. However your arrogance and stubbornness often leads to disrespectful exchanges and sometimes you pull dickhead stunts like the one above-- that's when I get upset.

    Awaiting your detailed response denying the obvious and telling my how I'm all wrong.

    fuck you
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