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 Topic: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again

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  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #90 - June 25, 2009, 09:17 AM
    Sounds fine to me. Post pix. Kthnx.   bunny
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #91 - June 25, 2009, 09:37 AM
     Cheesy
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #92 - June 25, 2009, 01:17 PM
    Quote from: heartbomb on June 25, 2009, 07:01 AM
    Is it a violation of free will, then, if the law prohibits you from walking down the street naked, albeit in front of small children? (Sorry Q-Man, I just had to bring that up again)  Tongue


    What os said, in response to both of your posts.

    I'd go into more detail on the nekkid thing but I'm about to in my response to Tlaloc anyhow.
    fuck you
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #93 - June 25, 2009, 01:32 PM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on June 25, 2009, 07:49 AM
    I see.

    Why would you not expose children to nudity?


    Cause I don't want to get arrested and put in the sex offender registry. Smiley

    Quote
    Don't you agree it's a matter of social comfort/discomfort due to a cultural payload we carry?


    Yeah, sure, but regardless of the reason, parents have a right to shield their children from such things, and it's commonly accepted that nudity is something children should be shielded from.

    Quote
    And, where is the logical difference between a "liberty" and "the natural right to free exercise of religion"?
    In particular: if there were a religion that shunned clothes (btw, I think there are a few very minor ones that do), wouldn't that mean that the prohibition of nudity is also an infringement or "the natural right to free exercise of religion"?


    Yes, in that event it would be an infringement upon a right and not merely a liberty. However, the state still has a right to carve out an exception in the interest of the kiddies-- wont someone please think of the children? It has long been accepted, in my country at least, that the normal rules do not necessarily apply when it comes to children and that conduct by adults may be more strictly regulated when it comes to their interaction with children. Now sometimes I think this goes too far-- i.e. not requiring mens rea when it comes to crimes like statutory rape and selling alcohol/tobacco to minors-- but I think saying people can't walk around naked in front of children is a completely reasonable limitation and, in practice, has a minimal impact on one's rights and liberties. Banning public use of niqab/burqua however, has no such justification and would have much more impact on free expression of religion.

    All that being said, if someone in the US were arrested for being naked in an adults-only public place simply because their religion prevented them from wearing clothes, I would most certainly argue their First Amendment rights to free exercise of religion had been violated and the charges should be dropped.
    fuck you
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #94 - June 25, 2009, 01:57 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 25, 2009, 09:17 AM
    Sounds fine to me. Post pix. Kthnx.   bunny



    Or did you mean boobs? Tongue
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #95 - June 25, 2009, 03:22 PM
    He's got bigger tits than me.  Cheesy

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #96 - June 25, 2009, 03:26 PM
    who needs women
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  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #97 - June 25, 2009, 03:27 PM
    We felt the same way about men, when we invented the vibrator.  Tongue
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #98 - June 25, 2009, 03:29 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on June 25, 2009, 01:32 PM

     it's commonly accepted that nudity is something children should be shielded from.



    Isn?t it also commonly accepted in our Western Societies that you do not go around wearing masks ?

    As for balaclavas, even back when we still had cold winters in Demark, I have never seen anybody wearing one and when I have seen tv programs from Russia, where it gets pretty darn cold in the winter, I have never seen anybody in a balaclava. In fact the only people I have seen wearing a face mask are people on polar expeditions
    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #99 - June 25, 2009, 03:39 PM
    Quote from: Paloma on June 25, 2009, 03:29 PM
    Isn?t it also commonly accepted in our Western Societies that you do not go around wearing masks ?


    That does not involve the rights of parents or the right to freely exercise your religion so it is irrelevant.

    Quote
    As for balaclavas, even back when we still had cold winters in Demark, I have never seen anybody wearing one and when I have seen tv programs from Russia, where it gets pretty darn cold in the winter, I have never seen anybody in a balaclava. In fact the only people I have seen wearing a face mask are people on polar expeditions


    They aren't common here but people will sometimes wear them in particularly cold weather.
    fuck you
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #100 - June 25, 2009, 04:16 PM
    The sad thing is that if this man was wearing niqab and covered his gonads, how many men would not get stuck in? Phwooar
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #101 - June 25, 2009, 04:17 PM
    Quote from: Phedippedes on June 24, 2009, 09:38 PM
    you didn't get the analogy? The problem with your logic is that there is no equivocance (is that a word?) between these two opinion. The oppression stems from wearing the niqaab: not just from being forced to wear it.


    I did get your point and I said that I do think the origins of the niqab are oppressive and it is still oppressive for millions of women today. But my point was, in this day and age, some women do not see it as oppressive, they are not harming anybody by wearing it, so who is anybody to tell them what they can wear?!
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #102 - June 25, 2009, 04:24 PM
    And on a side note, I love how this serious discussion on veiling has somehow descended into a discussion about Jack Nickolson's man boobs!
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #103 - June 25, 2009, 05:53 PM
    That?s a picture of Jack Nicholson ? Oh god - Sic transit gloria mundi.
    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #104 - June 25, 2009, 06:03 PM
    Quote from: Zaephon on June 23, 2009, 11:13 PM
    Exactly. Which part of "Muslim mobs imposing the hijab on women" do you not understand?


    There is a different law which deals with subjection of an individuals its called human rights, not dictatorship.  Roll Eyes
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #105 - June 25, 2009, 06:18 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on June 25, 2009, 04:17 PM
    I did get your point and I said that I do think the origins of the niqab are oppressive and it is still oppressive for millions of women today. But my point was, in this day and age, some women do not see it as oppressive, they are not harming anybody by wearing it, so who is anybody to tell them what they can wear?!

    And the ban on hijab is the best way to protect women from this oppressive piece of rag, especially in a Muslim majority country, where religious hooligans and social pressure can oppress women who do not wear the headscarf. Also, the ban on hijab gives women an excuse to breach the patriarchy imposed upon them. There are many girls/women who are not strong enough to defy the hijab individually, especially since they lack financial freedom, and the ban allows them to shed the headscarf.

    You fail to understand that even if a girl does not want to wear the dreaded headscarf, her parents will impose their will upon her anyway, since parents are much more stronger than children. Imposing the headscarf on a child/teenager is just another kind of domestic abuse. Creating laws to prevent parents from forcing their girls to wear the headscarf sounds nice, but such regulations would need extensive monitoring to be effective.

    A Turkish columnist, Mine Kirikkanat, correctly equated the headscarf with the swastika once. Both symbolise oppressive and violent ideologies. One ideology targets Jews and allegedly inferior races, whereas the other ideology targets women. She is a secular feminist by the way, does that ring any bells? But in this PC forum, voicing opinions that are acceptable in a secular Muslim country are somehow "too bigoted."
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #106 - June 25, 2009, 06:29 PM
    Quote from: King Tut on June 25, 2009, 06:03 PM
    There is a different law which deals with subjection of an individuals its called human rights, not dictatorship.  Roll Eyes

    Bad news for you, mate. The European Court of Human Rights does not object to the headscarf ban in Turkey (and nor to the French ban, I assume.) Does that mean anything to you? But let me guess... the ECtHR is a bunch of fascists and evil anti-Muslim bigots, right? Damn this evil dictatorship of the ECtHR!

     Roll Eyes
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #107 - June 25, 2009, 06:36 PM
    Quote from: Zaephon on June 25, 2009, 06:18 PM
    And the ban on hijab is the best way to protect women from this oppressive piece of rag, especially in a Muslim majority country, where religious hooligans and social pressure can oppress women who do not wear the headscarf. Also, the ban on hijab gives women an excuse to breach the patriarchy imposed upon them. There are many girls/women who are not strong enough to defy the hijab individually, especially since they lack financial freedom, and the ban allows them to shed the headscarf.

    You fail to understand that even if a girl does not want to wear the dreaded headscarf, her parents will impose their will upon her anyway, since parents are much more stronger than children. Imposing the headscarf on a child/teenager is just another kind of domestic abuse. Creating laws to prevent parents from forcing their girls to wear the headscarf sounds nice, but such regulations would need extensive monitoring to be effective.

    A Turkish columnist, Mine Kirikkanat, correctly equated the headscarf with the swastika once. Both symbolise oppressive and violent ideologies. One ideology targets Jews and inferior races, whereas the other ideology targets women. She is a secular feminist by the way, does that ring any bells? But in this PC forum, voicing opinions that are acceptable in a secular Muslim country are somehow "too bigoted."


    What on earth are you on about?! What have you not been allowed to say in this "PC Forum", and when have you ever been called bigoted?

    Anyway, as regards to your point, of course I understand that many girls will be forced to wear a headscarf by their parents. There were many girls whom I went to school with who used to wear a headscarf on the way to and from school but took it off when they were at school. Why was that? Because their parents made them wear it, they didn't like wearing it, and they could get away with not wearing it at school as there was noone there to see them who could tell them off or grass to their parents.

    What you don't seem to understand is not every woman sees the hijab as an "oppressive piece of rag" and some women actually want to wear it of their own accord. You could use the argument that they have been indoctrinated into thinking that it is a good thing, or they only want to wear it because they think they will burn in hell if they don't, but nevertheless, some women still want to wear it and who is anyone to tell women how they must dress and who is anyone to tell people how they may or may not practice their personal religion?
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #108 - June 25, 2009, 06:45 PM
    Quote from: Zaephon on June 25, 2009, 06:29 PM
    Bad news for you, mate. The European Court of Human Rights does not object to the headscarf ban in Turkey (and nor to the French ban, I assume.) Does that mean anything to you? But let me guess... the ECtHR is a bunch of fascists and evil anti-Muslim bigots, right? Damn this evil dictatorship of the ECtHR!

     Roll Eyes


    Turkey following ECtHR is just laughable considering Turkey's record on violations of prohibits torture, inhumane treatment and discrimination. Maybe you should read Article 9 of ECtHR which states:

    Quote
    Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.


    Moreover, France would be in a clear violation of Article 14 which states:

    Quote
    The enjoyment of the rights and freedoms set forth in this Convention shall be secured without discrimination on any ground such as sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status.


    Like I said before, individuals need protection from the mob/state not the other way around.  Afro
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #109 - June 25, 2009, 06:47 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on June 25, 2009, 06:36 PM
    What on earth are you on about?! What have you not been allowed to say in this "PC Forum", and when have you ever been called bigoted?


    Another COEM apostate in the making? He hasn't been censored since I've been here, to my knowledge, nor have any staff called him bigoted since I've been here, to the best of knowledge. However, awais has called him bigoted before, and I would not be surprised if I have as well, especially when I first came here.
    fuck you
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #110 - June 25, 2009, 06:52 PM
    Quote from: King Tut on June 25, 2009, 06:45 PM
    Turkey following ECtHR is just laughable considering Turkey's record on violations of prohibits torture, inhumane treatment and discrimination. Maybe you should read Article 9 of ECtHR which states:

    Moreover, France would be in a clear violation of Article 14 which states:

    Like I said before, individuals need protection from the mob/state not the other way around.  Afro


    I don't know about Turkish law overall, but the ban on hijabs in state run schools and colleges and government offices is not in breach of EU law, nor is the French ban.  Countries have a right to determine their own relationship between church/mosque and state, so the Turkish and French bans on religious symbols in state run places is no more a breach of that article than the status of the CofE is a breach of the human rights of non-Anglicans in the UK. 
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #111 - June 25, 2009, 07:03 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on June 25, 2009, 06:52 PM
    I don't know about Turkish law overall, but the ban on hijabs in state run schools and colleges and government offices is not in breach of EU law, nor is the French ban.  Countries have a right to determine their own relationship between church/mosque and state, so the Turkish and French bans on religious symbols in state run places is no more a breach of that article than the status of the CofE is a breach of the human rights of non-Anglicans in the UK. 


    The French president if firstly doing this to win votes, secondly he wants to my understanding ban the right Muslim women to wear the burqah even outside the state run institutions. Moreover, why is the French are saying we are doing this for equality of women, then why not attack the Chatohlic Church, which does not allow female priests - this is a rhetorical question so I will answer it myself, its because he would lose votes.         
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #112 - June 25, 2009, 07:06 PM
    Quote from: King Tut
    Turkey following ECtHR is just laughable considering Turkey's record on violations of prohibits torture, inhumane treatment and discrimination. Maybe you should read Article 9 of ECtHR which states:

    Irrelevant. We were discussing a specific article of Turkish law, not Turkey's history of human rights violations. Needless to say, Turkish law is far, far superior to any kind of Islamic law. The problem of human rights in Turkey belongs to the sphere of unjust police power and Islamic hooligans, not the Turkish law.

    Most of these human rights violations took place during right-wing and Islamist governments, who wanted to annul the secular laws of Turkey. Why, do you think?
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #113 - June 25, 2009, 07:08 PM
    Quote from: Zaephon on June 25, 2009, 07:06 PM
    Irrelevant. We were discussing a specific article of Turkish law, not Turkey's history of human rights violations. Needless to say, Turkish law is far, far superior to any kind of Islamic law. The problem of human rights in Turkey belongs to the sphere of unjust police power and Islamic hooligans, not the Turkish law.

    Most of these human rights violations took place during right-wing and Islamist governments, who wanted to annul the secular laws of Turkey. Does that ring any bells?



    Has the secular government apologized to the Armenian's?
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #114 - June 25, 2009, 07:10 PM
    Quote
    The French president if firstly doing this to win votes, secondly he wants to my understanding ban the right Muslim women to wear the burqah even outside the state run institutions


    Yeah, well I've already said I don't agree with that.  And I don't find it that shocking that a politician is saying something "to win votes."  It goes with the territory, y'know?

    Quote
    Moreover, why is the French are saying we are doing this for equality of women, then why not attack the Chatohlic Church, which does not allow female priests - this is a rhetorical question so I will answer it myself, its because he would lose votes.     


    In France? Bollox, it would probly win him votes, it certainly wouldn't lose him any.  The reason he's not saying it is that France has a complete separation between church and state, unlike the UK.  Therefore, just as a French bishop would be told to go and fuck himself if he started pronouncing on who people should vote for, the Church would tell Sarkozy to go and fuck himself if he started pronouncing on who they should ordain.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #115 - June 25, 2009, 07:16 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on June 25, 2009, 07:10 PM
    The reason he's not saying it is that France has a complete separation between church and state, unlike the UK. 

    How is the state linked to the church in the UK?
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  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #116 - June 25, 2009, 07:25 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere
    What you don't seem to understand is not every woman sees the hijab as an "oppressive piece of rag" and some women actually want to wear it of their own accord. You could use the argument that they have been indoctrinated into thinking that it is a good thing, or they only want to wear it because they think they will burn in hell if they don't, but nevertheless, some women still want to wear it and who is anyone to tell women how they must dress and who is anyone to tell people how they may or may not practice their personal religion?

    I don't have a problem with adult women (post-university) wearing the headscarf. If they are so delusional that they can perceive the symbol of their humiliation as a symbol of pride, they are free to suffer from their hallucinations. The current headscarf ban in Turkey, and in France for that matter, extends to education and state buildings only. When a woman graduates from a university, hopefully acquainted with a somewhat secular lifestyle and hopefully having acquired some kind of financial independence, she will hopefully choose her own lifestyle.

    The headscarf is not just an innocent symbol of personal piety. Especially in Turkey, the Islamic hijab is a symbol of political Islam and the oppression of women. In the 1960s, there were very few women who wore the headscarf. The rise of political Islam has caused a revival of the outdated practice.
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #117 - June 25, 2009, 07:35 PM
    Quote from: King Tut on June 25, 2009, 07:08 PM
    Has the secular government apologized to the Armenian's?

    I am tempted to ignore you, but I'll ask this anyway: Wtf? What does the recognition (or the denial) of the Armenian Genocide have anything to do with the Turkish ban on headscarf?
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #118 - June 25, 2009, 07:45 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on June 25, 2009, 07:16 PM
    How is the state linked to the church in the UK?


    The head of state is also the head of the CofE, there are a certain amount of seats reserved in the House of Lords for CofE Bishops and none for Catholics, Imams, Rabbis, etc, (although the govt can appoint them to the House of Lords if they want). 
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #119 - June 25, 2009, 07:49 PM
    Quote from: Zaephon on June 25, 2009, 07:35 PM
    I am tempted to ignore you, but I'll ask this anyway: Wtf? What does the recognition (or the denial) of the Armenian Genocide have anything to do with the Turkish ban on headscarf?


    I thought the secular government for not as bad as the religious ones?
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
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