The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread

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The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
OP - July 07, 2009, 06:24 PM

I wanted to start a thread that would be like a hangout place for converts, as well as people who were raised up Muslim but had convert parents (yeah you were raised Muslim, but the rest of the community does not consider you as anything but a convert yourself), and people who almost converted or married a Muslim but didn't convert themselves. Just like a hang out spot, for unique experiences, views, whatevs. Or talking about converts, but not in some of the ways that I've seen elsewhere. You know, like 4 converts & children of converts by converts & children of converts.

Starting off with this lame-ass video about a guy who converted to Islam and used to be a rap artist. Or crap artist since he was on the Bad Boy label and rapped with P. Diddy. I love how the hard hitting channel of Al Jazeera English quotes "the Canadian Dawah Association" which from my memory is a sad little group of hardcore Muslim converts in Toronto. "Growing number of rap artists?" Half the guys they are mentioning are 5% Nation of Gods and Earths, or other very bizarre offshoots that Muslims won't even claim as Muslim. You can't take something that happened in the late 90s, when there was this peak of interest in Islam & hip hop and some guys converting to Sunni Islam (Q-Tip) and these other Islam inspired religions and say that's a trend.

Sounds to me like yet another hip hop has been lookin' for an angle.

http://www.theboombox.com/2009/07/06/former-bad-boy-artist-loon-converts-to-islam/

I can't even tell you how much these type of stories annoy the fizzuck out of me now because it's mostly not even true. Most converts seem to quit Islam. Everyone I know who was raised up a Muslim child of convert parents has quit Islam or is nominally a Muslim (MINO - Muslim in name only) except for a few people from African-American families who were raised up in the Warith Deen Muhammad movement.

So that's my first contribution. Take a Salafi who used to drop some lameass rhymes and call it a trend, because if the dawahganda group isn't a bunch of kool aid drinking converts themselves, then it's people who just want to put the white guys and the black guys on display when they think it makes them look good and "assimilated." Growl.

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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #1 - July 07, 2009, 06:30 PM

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4461534,00.html

Here is another one. This girl was on MTV in Germany and then converted to Islam after Imran Khan gave her some dawah in the bedroom. I guess we can say Imran uses horizontal dawah to convert the ladies.

Why does this annoy me? Because my Muslim acquaintances were passing it around "oh Mashallaah, zis MTV to Allaah, zis is ze light of Islam," etc. Why is it that if you a celebrity or a minor celebrity or a has-been celebrity it's okay for you not to wear hijab? Any other white girl doesn't wear hijab who converts to Islam and they're all casting doubt on your status in the religion. Damn, the first thing they teach you is hijab - even before they teach you about prayer.

Also it pisses me off that Imran Khan - who is from a Muslim family, born Muslim, his identity is never questioned - can sleep his way around Europe (and probably the world) and every time he says "boo" about Islam or the Quran, you got Muslim organizations, magazines, etc holding him up as an ideal example of a "successful and moderate Muslim." Like the sexual stuff isn't bad enough for any Muslim girl, but if you're a convert Muslim woman, then if you're not a virgin it's all "that's your kafir background" and you're not good enough. If your parents are Muslim and you, you know, want to date or whatever then it's like "See, they're not really Muslim at all, that's not the true Islam."

Yeah I guess I'm in an annoyed mood today. Partially because I am watching this stupid Jackson thing on TV and I can't pull myself away from it.

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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #2 - July 08, 2009, 01:18 AM

Pretty cool. So fading, were you a convert (or "revert" as they say ) to Islam? You one of these that convert in order to get married to a Muslim guy? Just about every convert to Islam I can think of is one of those.

I was a convert and I remember living under my mother desiring freedom from her ever watchful eye. I think she pretty much hated Muslims. When she eventually died I actually felt free and I wanted to move in with my brother who is a Muslim himself, converted before me and who introduced (i.e. preached at) me to Islam. My sister wasn't having any of it and my mother put it in her will that she would like my sister to look after me. So off to my sister's I went. At first I hated it, because I wanted to be surrounded by Islam like I would've been at my brother's. I can't believe just how ironic my life could have turned out if I left Islam under my brother and then I would be desiring the same freedom I craved when I was living under my mother, except this time the belief in question was the opposite for me and for the person I was living under. Wow, am I glad I ended up living with my sister. She truly gave me freedom. I love her very much

Leaving Islam was an awful experience. I loved Islam so much, I even kept on praying after my disbelief. All my friends that I had made were Muslim, and I believed when I was Muslim that having close non-Muslim friends wasn't a good idea anyway so I didn't have anyone to turn to really. Ironically, in school I turned to the one person who I grew to hate when I was a Muslim because he kept challenging my beliefs and ridiculing them but not in a horrid manner, but just by saying it out loud what I believe in without any strings attached which made my beliefs look stupid, an example being my belief that you should roll your trouser legs up above your ankle, as a Muslim man. His name was Suneil. His parents are Sikh but he is just a guy who speaks his mind in every single situation. Get's him in trouble sometimes and he's made a few enemies with his attitude including me at one time. It confused my Muslim friends in school so much that some of them started blaming Suneil for converting me away from Islam. Suneil had no intention of doing that, ofcourse. He just takes roads in life to see where they will lead, he doesn't really have an ulterior motive when it comes to anything.

I ought to record all my experiences down because my memory isn't too great and things like these I ought to remember lol. Anyway I'm too sleepy to carry on, but I like this hangout
Goodnight, for now

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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #3 - July 08, 2009, 07:58 AM

I dunno I don't have the quote option on some posts these days.

Quote
Pretty cool. So fading, were you a convert (or "revert" as they say Roll Eyes ) to Islam? You one of these that convert in order to get married to a Muslim guy? Just about every convert to Islam I can think of is one of those.

I was Muslim from the time I was a kid. I have to tell you that "just to get married" is a pet peeve of mine. (also i hate that word "revert" it is the dumbest word and maybe one of the only things I agree with Hamza Yusuf on). It was when I was Muslim (becuz... uh... people assumed all the f'in time that I was a convert and I converted because of marriage....) and it's a pet peeve now. Maybe I just knew a special group of people. I didn't know a single sister who converted because of marriage. I know one guy who "converted" to get married to a secular feminist woman from a secular background and neither of them practise at all. Most people I know, or that I knew, converted on faith. I think I knew like one woman who was introduced to Islam by her husband but they were already married & together and Islam doesn't require conversion of a woman anyway for marriage.

But looking back I think that the conversions might be for reasons other than "Oh, they meet our men and convert for marriage" (which is really a disservice because it assumes that women have no thoughts of their own, they can't make a faith decision on their own, they just do whatever a man wants or does).

For example, in looking back with some friends of mine, I think there are people who ostensibly convert for faith - because most people *DO* believe in a sky fairy of some sort, even white women who marry Muslim guys, and never question its existence - but they chose Islam because they perceive it to be a means of obtaining an identity, or because they buy into that "Islam is a form of refusal" bullshit or whatever. Like I think that some of the white people I knew who converted, especially the men, have serious self-hate issues over being white people and becoming Muslim is like a ghetto pass. Now you're not white, you're part of an oppressed minority! If you think you can stomach it, you should google for white Muslim blogs and white Muslim blog carnival. Just absolute and utter pap.

The tone of conversation is shifting big time now, but just 10 years ago, a lot of dawahganda centered on how Islam is a primary form of resistance and all this neo-Marxist-lite kind of bullshit nonsense that has no connection to reality (Islam, for example, being an imperialist system that places absolute value on absolute authorities). I know so many people who converted to Islam thinking they are going to "fight the man" or some shit like that.

OR because they know the trinity is complete and utter bullshit but like most people they are programmed to believe in invisible superheroes, so the tawheed of Islam, in that context, makes more sense to them. There's just one, not 3 for the price of one. I think that initially, especially before the 9/11 spotlight was on them, Muslim dawahganda artists were very good and sort of distilling the message of Islam (or rather, obfuscating its teachings) and making it very simple and appealing to a lot of people from the West, and picking up on some common threads of Christianity and saying, "Well, Islam has that, but better." One god, lots of prophets, none of whom sleep with their daughters, a prefect book unlike the Bible in it's multiple incarnation, and so on. Even the "rights for women" look good on paper if the one page from the dawah artists is all you see. Do you see what I mean? A lot of people don't stop to think, "Wait a minute, do I really have an invisible friend / father / dictator who lives in the sky and tells me what to do via a book communicated 1400 / 2000 / 170 years ago to a guy who said he was the true messenger of this invisible being?" They don't question it at all.

I mean, ultimately, who can say what a person's intentions are? I don't know any better than anyone else. Most people have multiple motives and intentions, not just one... I'm just judging that based on patterns of behaviour, conversation, and the views of the world and Islam that were presented by those people.

So, no, I wasn't one of those girls. Neither were any of my friends. I married a Muslim man because that was what Big Al wanted, what the Quran commanded, a pious believing husband is a good companion and brings sakinah to your life and blah blah the fuck blah.

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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #4 - July 08, 2009, 08:10 AM

Another reason people convert:

A lot of people go through these religious awakenings too when they have gone through some trauma, like an accident, or the death of a parent, or something like that. Some reaffirm their commitment to the religion of their family. Some become Buddhist, and some become Muslim. Cat Stevens converted after he nearly drowned. Hamza Yusuf converted after he was in a serious car crash. I knew a few people who converted after serious health and financial trials. They feel like your time on earth is about to finish, so they start searching for something and think that "god" is going to fill that.

I don't want this to be a means of making fun of converts or Islam per se, but I do know about two or three women (and you can assume this also applies to men) who converted after they had nervous breakdowns or serious psychotic / psychological episodes. I don't know the details, like did they think god was talking to them or something, but just that they're there, part of the Muslim community. It's funny but you said what you did and I remember about 10 years ago someone (a convert) saying to me that "Oh most of the converts have serious mental illnesses." I do have to say that I have never encountered so many seriously ill people just in daily life as I did in the Muslim community and that includes Arabs and Asians too. Mental illness is everywhere but it seems like Muslims have more than a fair share. I think religion of any type if a piss poor substitute for proper treatment, and even if someone is on their meds, well, there's your priest or imam or whatever to screw with your mind with these fantastical tales of zombies who rise from the dead after 3 days in a cave or a dude who flies up to heave on a winged horse. It pains me to think of the Muslim convert women I knew who have serious mental illnesses, because a lot of them don't have the support of their families because of the religion change or the mental illness or both, and then they don't get the support of Muslims, who are ashamed of them, and then double the misunderstandings with the society at large and not a single one of them ever had any length of time that I knew them where they seemed at peace with themselves or even with god. Just a well of sorrow and hardship seemingly without bottom.

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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #5 - July 08, 2009, 08:18 AM

dear fading, I just want to interject here and say a big for your posts. They often leave me speechless in both the way I can relate and the new insights they give me, as well as the great way you have of putting it all perfectly into words. And although there is much I'd like to say in response, all that comes to mind right now is "YES. what she said."

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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #6 - July 08, 2009, 09:24 AM

Quote from: J4m3z on July 08, 2009, 01:18 AM
I ought to record all my experiences down because my memory isn't too great and things like these I ought to remember lol. Anyway I'm too sleepy to carry on, but I like this hangout
Goodnight, for now

You've already done that, on COEM. I partly see this site as a diary too, as I am too lazy to keep one. If I find out that one say posts are going to be deleted, at that point I will save everything I wrote, to read when I am old & debilitated.

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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #7 - July 08, 2009, 09:27 AM

Quote from: fading on July 08, 2009, 07:58 AM
Like I think that some of the white people I knew who converted, especially the men, have serious self-hate issues over being white people and becoming Muslim is like a ghetto pass. Now you're not white, you're part of an oppressed minority!
...
I married a Muslim man because that was what Big Al wanted, what the Quran commanded, a pious believing husband is a good companion and brings sakinah to your life and blah blah the fuck blah.

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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #8 - July 08, 2009, 11:52 AM

Quote from: fading on July 08, 2009, 07:58 AM
I think that some of the white people I knew who converted, especially the men, have serious self-hate issues over being white people and becoming Muslim is like a ghetto pass. Now you're not white, you're part of an oppressed minority!

I am jumping up and down and smiling because this is the TRUTH! I have observed it in the same way as well! You are so insightful. That's exactly what it is, a 'ghetto pass', a white person can constantly become a romantically 'oppressed' minority, he can instantaneously accrue all of the righteousness and pomposity that goes along with it.

In so many ways, Islam feeds on self-loathing and this is just another manifestation of that.

Coming to this forum is like hearing all the voices you suspected were out there coming to life.

*mwah*

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #9 - July 08, 2009, 12:04 PM

fading do you think it is mental illness or that the conditioning of Islam leads to such extreme neurosis and compulsions? Even though it is comical when we observe the paranoia of some Muslims manifested in lunatic conspiracy theories for example, the cognitive dissonance between the world as it is and how they are effectively brainwashed can lead to psychological pressure and tensions. Islam can quite literally, make you mad.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #10 - July 08, 2009, 12:53 PM

Quote from: billy on July 08, 2009, 11:52 AM
I am jumping up and down and smiling because this is the TRUTH! I have observed it in the same way as well! You are so insightful. That's exactly what it is, a 'ghetto pass', a white person can constantly become a romantically 'oppressed' minority, he can instantaneously accrue all of the righteousness and pomposity that goes along with it.

In so many ways, Islam feeds on self-loathing and this is just another manifestation of that.

Coming to this forum is like hearing all the voices you suspected were out there coming to life.

*mwah*

Yes, Islamist do tend to take advantage of the whole white guilt phenomenon going on in the west.
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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #11 - July 08, 2009, 02:45 PM

If I'm honest, fading, I can't seem to relate to a lot of the things you say in your posts. Also, you say things which I think are very speculative and fallacious and reminds me of how many Muslims, including myself once upon a time, used to reason to the "obvious" truth of Islam, using arguments that actually had huge logical holes in them. On top of that, I don't think the way you write is very clear at all. Then I read other members complimenting you for your posts and I'm quite surprised. It's almost like I'm reading something different to everybody else.

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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #12 - July 08, 2009, 03:11 PM

Well J4m3z, I have to say that I disagree with all of that. Fader's insights are useful because they articulate her experience and observations. At the end of the day, that is all that we have, and we are all trying to find our way forward by touch and taste and experience and discussion and exchange of experience and observation.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #13 - July 08, 2009, 03:55 PM

billy, the point you made was pretty obvious and I don't disagree with it. Am I being incoherent in accepting what you said and keeping the opinions I raised in my previous post? Basically, I don't see how it is a response to what I said.

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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #14 - July 08, 2009, 04:07 PM

J4 - is your brother still a muslim, what does he think of you since you left islam?

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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #15 - July 08, 2009, 04:46 PM

Quote from: billy on July 08, 2009, 11:52 AM
I am jumping up and down and smiling because this is the TRUTH! I have observed it in the same way as well! You are so insightful. That's exactly what it is, a 'ghetto pass', a white person can constantly become a romantically 'oppressed' minority, he can instantaneously accrue all of the righteousness and pomposity that goes along with it.

In so many ways, Islam feeds on self-loathing and this is just another manifestation of that.

Coming to this forum is like hearing all the voices you suspected were out there coming to life.

*mwah*

The (self) righteousness and pomposity is on my nerves these days. I know I really have to quit all contact with Muslims... there isn't any point to it, it's not like most of them are my real good friends or something.

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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #16 - July 08, 2009, 04:48 PM

Quote from: billy on July 08, 2009, 12:04 PM
fading do you think it is mental illness or that the conditioning of Islam leads to such extreme neurosis and compulsions? Even though it is comical when we observe the paranoia of some Muslims manifested in lunatic conspiracy theories for example, the cognitive dissonance between the world as it is and how they are effectively brainwashed can lead to psychological pressure and tensions. Islam can quite literally, make you mad.

I mentioned two or three women that I know -- they definitely have conditions that they had before being Muslim - bipolar disorder and schizophrenia.

The people who get into these crazyass conspiracies - yeah I don't know what that is, because I think if they weren't Muslim, they wouldn't get into this mentality where everyone is out to get them. Or maybe they would? Or maybe being around Muslims and their conspiracy theories brings out something latent in a person who, prior to being Muslim, had that tendency but didn't go around spouting it off all the time.

I had a friend who was normal and then she married this guy who saw a conspiracy "against the deen and the Muslims" in everything. After a year of that, she started to be like him. So much so that when a male orderly walked into the room where she was laboring in FULL HIJAB (she took off niqab though) even though they had tacked up a sign that said "No Men Allowed" they were convinced it was a conspiracy by the hospital staff against them. (A conspiracy to see her secret, secret place. And her hair). And his not having a job half the time was a conspiracy by all the businesses in the world against them because they were "on the haqq" and most employers don't want that kind of truth in their business. She was a convert, but I'm remembering that he was raised Muslim (by convert parents). One thing though - for all their pained ranting and raving about conspiracies "against the dawah", they were both engaged in their own conspiracies - minor petty ones, like him going around and marrying half of the city's Salafi women behind her back and enlisting the aid of the other half of the Salafi women to keep it from her, things like that.

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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #17 - July 08, 2009, 04:54 PM

Quote from: J4m3z on July 08, 2009, 03:55 PM
billy, the point you made was pretty obvious and I don't disagree with it. Am I being incoherent in accepting what you said and keeping the opinions I raised in my previous post? Basically, I don't see how it is a response to what I said.

You said that pretty much every Muslim convert you met - other than yourself of course - only converted for marriage. In other words, not for any genuine reason having to do with faith. I find this meme highly insulting to women (against whom it is lobbed almost all of the time) and, what was the word, fallacious. Many people have multiple motivations and intentions, not just "I'm converting to get married even though my new husband's religion doesn't require me to, because I'm such a fembot, I would easily shed my entire way of living and points of view just to fit a man's."

And then you assumed that I was one of those women.

Presented with myriad other reasons why someone might convert, your next response is to insult me twice? Got it, homey.

(I mean, disagree with me, but bring some reasoning... otherwise, it's too much like the way Muslims disagree with each other).

(Also, why is there both an edit and a modify function?)

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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #18 - July 08, 2009, 04:58 PM

Quote from: J4m3z on July 08, 2009, 03:55 PM
Basically, I don't see how it is a response to what I said.

I guess I was saying that the comparison of fader's posts with the fallaciousness of the arguments of practising Muslims is in my opinion, very very wrong.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #19 - July 08, 2009, 05:01 PM

How come some people's posts don't have the "quote" option and others do? I've had this problem for a few days before. I never noticed it before.

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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #20 - July 08, 2009, 05:08 PM

see http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=5825.msg149372#msg149372

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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #21 - July 08, 2009, 05:09 PM

I'm guessing he is still a Muslim, yeah. And I haven't seen him in ages. We fell out over Mum's inheritance because Mum left nothing for him except 10 grand. The rest was divided between me and my sister. My mum made a formal explanation to go with her will aswell, saying it is because she felt betrayed by her son's conversion to Islam and changing the name that she gave him. I kind of felt guilty that I too was a Muslim yet she gave me a portion of the inheritance. This is what my brother used to say to me as a reason why I should give him a share of the money. But that is seriously insulting my mother's intelligence. I think she knew I was a Muslim but funnily enough I think both me AND my mum didn't want it to come out in the open... for the moment anyway... which turned out to be as long as she would live.

My brother fell out with my sister long before he fell out with me. He fell out with her because she wouldn't give him any of the inheritance. He then started accusing her of drugging my mum up on morphine and then made her leave him out of the will, which is absolute bollocks because mum finished writing the will before the drugs came onto the scene - I remember coming home one day from school and a lawyer was in the living room with my mum and I was told to go upstairs. A great deal of effort is made to separate the process from any other member of the family. Also, they had to get witnesses to witness my mother signing the will, and none of us know who these witnesses are. Anyway, it made me wonder why my brother hadn't fallen out with me, cuz I wasn't prepared to give him a fixed portion of the inheritance. I was pretty innocent at the time so I just put it down to the fact that I was still a minor (kinda) and so my brother wouldn't want any money from me. How wrong I was... one day he confronted me about it so I suggested to him that if he needed any money that he asks me for it and why he needs it, then I will consider giving him the money for it. I was really shocked by his reaction. Suddenly he went ape shit! "Fuck off!!! You want me to come grovelling to you whenever I need some money?!?!" I thought at the time that he had a point but that's only because all my life my brother made me feel like he was an elder to me and so I ought to treat him with much respect and privilege. Whenever we saw each other he would say "why haven't you been keeping in touch with me?" and I would feel guilty like it was entirely my fault, not even considering that it is a two-way street and that he ought to make the effort to get in touch with me too, if not moreso since I was living with my mother and didn't have a method of transport or know how to use public transport.

So yeah, he basically wanted a fixed percentage of the inheritance. From then on we got into arguments whenever we met. One day he invited me round to dinner with the in-laws, who I really like. He picked me up along with his brother in-law, who is a really likeable character. We had an argument, which my brother blamed on me saying that I always start it, and then he went so fucking crazy I thought he was going to kill me or something. He suddenly turned the car round, started driving the other way, then his wife called asking for me and he just said "unfortunately James can't make it". I was sat in the back when he was saying this but I was too scared to speak out. That was probably the first time I saw his manipulative side which I had been warned about before but which I always ignored. Then he dropped me off in an alleyway somewhere in the middle of town. I never go there but I hear that is where all the backstreet prostitutes and drug dealers hung out. He kicked me out of the car screaming so hard that his voice was breaking: "I NEVER WANT TO SEE YOU OR THAT COW (his word for my sister. I don't tell her that though, she'd be too upset) IN MY LIFE EVER AGAIN UNTIL THE NEXT TIME I LOOK IN MY BANK ACCOUNT I SEE A BIG LUMP OF MONEY EQUAL TO A THIRD OF THE INHERITANCE. ONLY THEN WILL I BE INTERESTED IN SEEING YOU AGAIN!" I got out and walked all the way home from the middle of town, hungry and crying.

We did speak to each other again though. He asked me to forgive him because he was going on Hajj and I said I did. But he maintained that his brother in-law at the time said I was out of order. I don't believe that for a second, I could see his bro in-law was nearly as scared as I was and was telling him to calm down. Anyway, it didn't last long because I inadvertedly brought up the incident and my brother went "I knew it! I knew you could never forgive me!" The fact is I did forgive him, I was just bringing it up as an example of something which I can't quite remember. I wasn't bringing it up on it's own just to use it to attack his character. Anyway he took it so seriously, I felt as though he just wanted a reason to be mad at me. This all happened over msn though. The next time I was to see him after when he kicked me out of the car in town, was when he came round to my sister's house to pick up a hoover and a clothes horse, which I thought was odd. He left half of the clothes horse saying he would pick it up at another time. Weird. Anyway, he had changed quite a bit... his clothing and his general appearance was even more Islamically orientated than the last time I saw him and he had a new van. He only drove a car beforehand. However, the one thing that shocked me the most was his wife. For the first time in my life she was wearing a niqaab and she was dressed in all black. I had never seen her dressed in all black before and I had only seen her outside with a hijaab on the odd time, usually when she going for eid namaaz or something special like that. This time she was wearing a niqaab! She wouldn't even look at me, either. I was lookingg at her, trying to catch her eye and then smile at her - I got on well with her when I used to go to my brother's house, but now she wouldn't even look at me. I don't know whether that is because she shared my brother's view that I ought to give him a third of the inheritance and therefore she hated me, or whether it was some other unknown reason, such as she was in a mood with my brother or she was scared of my brother. I dunno, but from then on I worried about her. I wonder how she is doing now. Anyway, I took care not to go too close to my brother or help him put the stuff in his van out of genuine fear that he might kidnap me. Heck, my sister was so damn scared that she didn't come out with me to keep me safe. In fact, she was so scared she locked me out of the house! Then when she was sure that he went, she unlocked the door and let me back in. I told her off for that, asking her what she was gonna do if our brother did try to kidnap me or something. She said she wasn't thinking, she just focussed on the possibility of his storming up the stairs trying to get in the house, so she locked it.

My brother doesn't know that I'm not a Muslim anymore, or at least I haven't told him. I wouldn't be surprised if he does know, to be honest. I had this friend from mosque called Jamal and he was perhaps the most understanding mosque friend that I had. He seemed a little bit westernized so I thought I could trust him by telling him I couldn't believe in Islam anymore. I even fantasized that maybe I would be able to convince him that Islam wasn't true and that me and him would become a team and tackle the multiple intricate Muslim influences in that awful community. He turned against me like you would expect someone who had never had contact with Western ways before would do. He started giving me creepy phonecalls and texts where he asked the same thing every single time, "are you a Muslim?" Really weird... anyway, one day I decided to give these books back to another mosque friend I had who was much older than me and could drive. His name was Abbas. I met up at an agreed place and had a chat with him. I just wanted to give him the books and go, as I did not want to be in the company of a fundamentalist. Deep down it made me sick to the core. I guess I was also scared that he might figure it out that I wasn't a Muslim. Lol, paranoid or what? How could he just "figure it out"? Of course he couldn't do that. So I just laid back a little bit and I was beginning to enjoy the chat. Then suddenly he says "I heard your not a Muslim anymore." I felt like my heart stopped, then getting over the initial shock, started racing like mad. That was an unbelievably uncomfortable feeling. I didn't know that Jamal and Abbas had ever even met before. To be honest, if anyone knows anything about how rumours can spread like wildfire in a Muslim community, then you will know that it isn't necessary that Jamal and Abbas know each other at all. They don't even go to the same mosque! But to anyone immersed in Islamic culture, that shouldn't be too surprising. The Islamic community is just freaky, man.

I'll leave it at that for now. Cool thread, man. Thanks for helping me remember and ponder over some of my experiences, fading

Btw, IsLame you said you were from the North. Would you mind me asking whereabouts?

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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #22 - July 08, 2009, 05:13 PM

Quote from: J4m3z on July 08, 2009, 05:09 PM
Btw, IsLame you said you were from the North. Would you mind me asking whereabouts?

Manchester

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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #23 - July 08, 2009, 05:21 PM

Quote from: IsLame on July 08, 2009, 05:08 PM
see http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=5825.msg149372#msg149372

Thank you

(ha, your post had a quote button at the bottom, but billy and j4mez's didn't)

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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #24 - July 08, 2009, 05:24 PM

Quote from: fading on July 08, 2009, 04:54 PM
You said that pretty much every Muslim convert you met - other than yourself of course - only converted for marriage. In other words, not for any genuine reason having to do with faith. I find this meme highly insulting to women (against whom it is lobbed almost all of the time) and, what was the word, fallacious. Many people have multiple motivations and intentions, not just "I'm converting to get married even though my new husband's religion doesn't require me to, because I'm such a fembot, I would easily shed my entire way of living and points of view just to fit a man's."

And then you assumed that I was one of those women.

Presented with myriad other reasons why someone might convert, your next response is to insult me twice? Got it, homey.

(I mean, disagree with me, but bring some reasoning... otherwise, it's too much like the way Muslims disagree with each other).

(Also, why is there both an edit and a modify function?)

To be honest with you, I don't really care if it is insulting to women. In fact, I don't really see how it can be seen as insulting to women. I saw what I saw, and if what I saw is insulting to women, then I still saw it.

And when did I assume you were one of these women? I asked you if you converted for marriage like every other female convert to Islam I know of who converted to Islam for reasons of marriage. I didn't say you did, I asked a question. Sorry if giving you that respect made you feel just as insulted as if I didn't give you that respect.

And what's with the "except you of course". You say it like I have to be coherent with what I said about other converts to Islam and say that I converted for reasons of marriage. Of course I didn't convert for reasons of marriage! I was 14 when I converted, 17 when I left, and I never married anyone!

And it does seem to be mostly women who convert to Islam for reasons of marriage. I know of male converts to Islam but I don't know of any married male converts to Islam except my brother. I think statistically the overwhelming majority of converts to Islam are women. I can't remember where I heard that, but I think it's right. Feel free to correct me though. I think it is because a lot of women are willing to change their religion for their partner, whereas men are not so much. I have no idea why that is, however, so don't accuse me of being sexist or anything like that.

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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #25 - July 08, 2009, 05:26 PM

Quote from: fading on July 08, 2009, 05:01 PM
How come some people's posts don't have the "quote" option and others do? I've had this problem for a few days before. I never noticed it before.

It's only the last person's post that doesn't have a quote button, because you are just replying to the post above you then, and admins think you don't need to quote them then

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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #26 - July 08, 2009, 05:41 PM

Quote from: J4m3z on July 08, 2009, 05:24 PM
Then he dropped me off in an alleyway somewhere in the middle of town. I never go there but I hear that is where all the backstreet prostitutes and drug dealers hung out. He kicked me out of the car screaming so hard that his voice was breaking: "I NEVER WANT TO SEE YOU OR THAT COW (his word for my sister. I don't tell her that though, she'd be too upset) IN MY LIFE EVER AGAIN UNTIL THE NEXT TIME I LOOK IN MY BANK ACCOUNT I SEE A BIG LUMP OF MONEY EQUAL TO A THIRD OF THE INHERITANCE. ONLY THEN WILL I BE INTERESTED IN SEEING YOU AGAIN!" I got out and walked all the way home from the middle of town, hungry and crying.

Nice post J4 - Islam definitely makes life interesting, otherwise we would probably be on some soccer forum discussing the latest scores instead!

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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #27 - July 08, 2009, 10:23 PM

Quote from: J4m3z on July 08, 2009, 05:09 PM
He started giving me creepy phonecalls and texts where he asked the same thing every single time, "are you a Muslim?" Really weird... anyway, one day I decided to give these books back to another mosque friend I had who was much older than me and could drive. His name was Abbas. I met up at an agreed place and had a chat with him. I just wanted to give him the books and go, as I did not want to be in the company of a fundamentalist. Deep down it made me sick to the core. I guess I was also scared that he might figure it out that I wasn't a Muslim. Lol, paranoid or what? How could he just "figure it out"? Of course he couldn't do that. So I just laid back a little bit and I was beginning to enjoy the chat. Then suddenly he says "I heard your not a Muslim anymore." I felt like my heart stopped, then getting over the initial shock, started racing like mad. That was an unbelievably uncomfortable feeling. I didn't know that Jamal and Abbas had ever even met before. To be honest, if anyone knows anything about how rumours can spread like wildfire in a Muslim community, then you will know that it isn't necessary that Jamal and Abbas know each other at all. They don't even go to the same mosque! But to anyone immersed in Islamic culture, that shouldn't be too surprising. The Islamic community is just freaky, man.

I was going to say that the above is like a horror movie, but that would belittle it into sensationalism.

It's actually like something from an unpublished novel by Kafka. I mean, really, it is so dark and insidious it's like something Kafkaesque.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #28 - July 08, 2009, 11:27 PM

What does Kafkaesque mean and how is sensationalism belittling?

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Re: The Converts (And Their Kids) Thread
Reply #29 - July 09, 2009, 12:03 AM

Quote
Then suddenly he says "I heard your not a Muslim anymore."

My experience has been that people will even say this when they don't have any confirmation or someone saying to them "Jill isn't Muslim anymore" but say if you take off hijab or you shave your beard, or you even start to be a more liberal Muslim or whatever, it's all "I heard you left the deen." There was a brother I knew who stopped going to his local Sufi majlis and then they were all, "Yeah he's not Muslim anymore." It's like "No he's just not interested in you anymore."

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