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 Topic: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11

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  • Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     OP - October 08, 2009, 04:10 PM
    From Sura Yusif (verse 4) the Quran mentions that there are 11 planets.

    Quote from: Sura Yusif, verse 4
    Behold! Joseph said to his father: "O my father! I did see eleven stars and the sun and the moon: I saw them prostrate themselves to me!"


    Science say that they are only 9. What if scientists discover 2 more planets? Wouldn't this be something Muslim Creationists would be barging about?
    ...
  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #1 - October 08, 2009, 04:17 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on October 08, 2009, 04:10 PM
    From Sura Yusif (verse 4) the Quran mentions that there are 11 planets.

    Science say that they are only 9. What if scientists discover 2 more planets? Wouldn't this be something Muslim Creationists would be barging about?


    No doubt, the question is how would you falsify such a claim?
  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #2 - October 08, 2009, 04:19 PM
    Huh? It doesn't say planets. It's from Yusuf's dream, 11 stars represent his brothers, sun and moon his mother and father. Tongue
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #3 - October 08, 2009, 04:36 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on October 08, 2009, 04:10 PM
    From Sura Yusif (verse 4) the Quran mentions that there are 11 planets.

    Science say that they are only 9. What if scientists discover 2 more planets? Wouldn't this be something Muslim Creationists would be barging about?


    There will not be any more planets discovered, not at all. There used to be 9 planets, but now they are only 8 because Pluto is no longer considered a planet but a dwarf planet. Whichever way you put it, there is no chance they could be 11 planets, because there are 8 planets recognised as planets, and at least 5 dwarf planets. So if you don't include dwarf planets, there are only 8 planets and if you include dwarf planets in your definition of "planet", there would be at least 13 planets.

    Isn't it funny how when people talk about "The Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an", this verse is never mentioned? How convenient.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #4 - October 08, 2009, 04:41 PM
    Quote
    Isn't it funny how when people talk about "The Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an", this verse is never mentioned? How convenient.


    I'm sure some contortion will be made and this verse will be dug up, being among those many "hidden treasures" in the Quran. Afro
  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #5 - October 08, 2009, 04:43 PM
    There is always a way. Like when Nalaik says that the verse which is talking about the Sun and the Moon orbiting around the Earth is actually talking about the Sun and the Moon spinning on their own axis.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #6 - October 08, 2009, 04:46 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on October 08, 2009, 04:36 PM
    There will not be any more planets discovered, not at all. There used to be 9 planets, but now they are only 8 because Pluto is no longer considered a planet but a dwarf planet. Whichever way you put it, there is no chance they could be 11 planets, because there are 8 planets recognised as planets, and at least 5 dwarf planets. So if you don't include dwarf planets, there are only 8 planets and if you include dwarf planets in your definition of "planet", there would be at least 13 planets.

    Isn't it funny how when people talk about "The Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an", this verse is never mentioned? How convenient.



    Watch this..... listen carefully at 0:27

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N57UuzN_GL0&feature=fvste2
    ...
  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #7 - October 08, 2009, 04:49 PM
    There were 11 planets until neptune was discovered! But them 4 planets were demoted anyway.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #8 - October 08, 2009, 04:50 PM
    I remember trying to re-assure myself with all these "scientific miracles". But then I though that it was trying way too hard and was still very suspicious of the whole thing. The trouble is, is that when you point all this out to those muslims who keep talking about it, they very quickly retort and say that the Quran isn't a scientific book (a view which is so true) but is about "You, Allah, the grave and the afterlife".
  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #9 - October 08, 2009, 04:52 PM
    Quote from: awais on October 08, 2009, 04:19 PM
    Huh? It doesn't say planets. It's from Yusuf's dream, 11 stars represent his brothers, sun and moon his mother and father. Tongue



    OK... I will play the devil's advocate now. Awais you are wrong here. The verse says Planet and not as the translated verse. It says 11 planets. I don't know why the translation says stars?


    إِذْ قَالَ يُوسُفُ لِأَبِيهِ يَا أَبَتِ إِنِّي رَأَيْتُ أَحَدَ عَشَرَ كَوْكَبًا وَالشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ رَأَيْتُهُمْ لِي سَاجِدِينَ ﴿٤﴾

    If you can read Arabic the word in bold is planet (Kawkab). Stars in Arabic is Nojoom!
    ...
  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #10 - October 08, 2009, 04:57 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on October 08, 2009, 04:49 PM
    There were 11 planets until neptune was discovered! But them 4 planets were demoted anyway.


    Come on, isn't this eerie? I mean we are very close to the number 11 here. I would have wished that there were only 2 planets when the Quran says 11, or 100 planets maybe to be far away from a wild guess. But Having a verse that says exactly 11 and then we find that the planets as we know them are maybe 11, or 13 or maybe 9 is not that strange?

    Now I need to find out what scientists of the old time (before Islam or the old Egyptians or the Chinese knew about the solar system). Does any one here know?
    ...
  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #11 - October 08, 2009, 05:04 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on October 08, 2009, 04:52 PM

    OK... I will play the devil's advocate now. Awais you are wrong here. The verse says Planet and not as the translated verse. It says 11 planets. I don't know why the translation says stars?

    The same word is used in the bible's hebrew concerning yusuf's dream, and it was understood to mean stars.

    Quote from: Gen. 37:9
    וַיֹּאמֶר, הִנֵּה חָלַמְתִּי חֲלוֹם עוֹד, וְהִנֵּה הַשֶּׁמֶשׁ וְהַיָּרֵחַ וְאַחַד עָשָׂר כּוֹכָבִים, מִשְׁתַּחֲוִים לִי

    Kokhavim.

    Tongue
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #12 - October 08, 2009, 05:05 PM
    It is not maybe 11. There is absolutely no way it could be 11. There are 8 or, if you use a loose definition of planets, there are at least 13. It is not strange because it is wrong.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #13 - October 08, 2009, 05:06 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on October 08, 2009, 04:52 PM

    OK... I will play the devil's advocate now. Awais you are wrong here. The verse says Planet and not as the translated verse. It says 11 planets. I don't know why the translation says stars?


    إِذْ قَالَ يُوسُفُ لِأَبِيهِ يَا أَبَتِ إِنِّي رَأَيْتُ أَحَدَ عَشَرَ كَوْكَبًا وَالشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ رَأَيْتُهُمْ لِي سَاجِدِينَ ﴿٤﴾

    If you can read Arabic the word in bold is planet (Kawkab). Stars in Arabic is Nojoom!


    Okay RIBS fine, but should the verse be taken as it is literally? A dream seen by an ancient Prophet with the stars representing his brothers and the sun and moon his parents, or metaphorically? Where would one make the distinction? This is why muslims who don't go for this whole "scientific miracles" don't usually take scientific facts at face value, they prefer something that claims to be absolute, rather than what they claim is tentative. They would say that today's scientific fact is tomorrows joke and they usually cite something like Newtonian physics in the face of Quantum mechanics.
  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #14 - October 08, 2009, 08:16 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on October 08, 2009, 04:52 PM
    If you can read Arabic the word in bold is planet (Kawkab). Stars in Arabic is Nojoom!

    The Google Arabic-English dictionary also lists kawkab for star:
    http://translate.google.com/translate_t?prev=hp&hl=en&js=y&text=star&file=&sl=en&tl=ar
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
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  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #15 - October 08, 2009, 08:49 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on October 08, 2009, 04:10 PM
    From Sura Yusif (verse 4) the Quran mentions that there are 11 planets.
    Quote from: Sura Yusif, verse 4
    Behold! Joseph said to his father: "O my father! I did see eleven stars and the sun and the moon: I saw them prostrate themselves to me!"

    Science say that they are only 9. What if scientists discover 2 more planets? Wouldn't this be something Muslim Creationists would be barging about?


    The verse you quoted mentions eleven stars and stars are no planets.
    "When one bright intellect meets another bright intellect, the light increases and the Way becomes clear -- Rumi
  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #16 - October 08, 2009, 08:59 PM
    11 stars is a slightly worse approximation, considering there are about 100 billion of them  Cheesy
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  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #17 - October 08, 2009, 09:13 PM
    Quote from: asif on October 08, 2009, 08:49 PM
    The verse you quoted mentions eleven stars and stars are no planets.


    I quoted the English Translation from the Website http://tanzil.info/

    But if you have read my previous post in the original Arabic Quran the verse says Kawakib and not Nojoom.

    Quote from: RIBS on October 08, 2009, 04:52 PM

    OK... I will play the devil's advocate now. Awais you are wrong here. The verse says Planet and not as the translated verse. It says 11 planets. I don't know why the translation says stars?


    إِذْ قَالَ يُوسُفُ لِأَبِيهِ يَا أَبَتِ إِنِّي رَأَيْتُ أَحَدَ عَشَرَ كَوْكَبًا وَالشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ رَأَيْتُهُمْ لِي سَاجِدِينَ ﴿٤﴾

    If you can read Arabic the word in bold is planet (Kawkab). Stars in Arabic is Nojoom!




    Quote from: Aziz on October 08, 2009, 08:16 PM
    The Google Arabic-English dictionary also lists kawkab for star:
    http://translate.google.com/translate_t?prev=hp&hl=en&js=y&text=star&file=&sl=en&tl=ar


    Nopes, Kawakib = Planets..... Nojoom = Stars

    Attached image is missing * Planet-Star.PNG (53.87 KB, 431x545 - viewed 6133 times.)
    ...
  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #18 - October 08, 2009, 09:16 PM
    I am not defending the fact that the Quran mentions 11 Planets. I am actually surprised how close the number 11 is to the number of planets as we know them now.

    And I still wonder if there is any knowledge of the solar system before Mohammed?
    ...
  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #19 - October 08, 2009, 09:16 PM
    It looks like there is even disagreement from the 3 main english translators - pickthall says planets, and Yusuf Ali & Shakir say star (see http://www.themuslimweb.com/quran/browse.cgi?val=12:4-101).
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  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #20 - October 08, 2009, 09:18 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on October 08, 2009, 09:16 PM
    I am not defending the fact that the Quran mentions 11 Planets. I am actually surprised how close the number 11 is to the number of planets as we know them know. And I still wonder if there is any knowledge of the solar system before Mohammed.

    I think in the case of ambiguity it is only fair to go with what the majority of these translators are saying, which is in this case stars.  Even if it is planets, Joseph by no means making the claim that there are only 11 planets.  He is just making the claim that they worshipped him.
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  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #21 - October 08, 2009, 09:21 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on October 08, 2009, 09:18 PM
    I think in the case of ambiguity it is only fair to go with what the majority of these translators are saying, which is in this case stars.  Even if it is planets, Joseph by no means making the claim that there are only 11 planets.  He is just making the claim that they worshipped him.


    No IsLame. I am a native speaker of Arabic and the Quran to be fair here, has mentioned several times Planets and in other ocasions mentioned Stars. So in that particular verse the word was Planets.
    ...
  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #22 - October 08, 2009, 09:36 PM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on October 08, 2009, 05:06 PM
    Okay RIBS fine, but should the verse be taken as it is literally? A dream seen by an ancient Prophet with the stars representing his brothers and the sun and moon his parents, or metaphorically? Where would one make the distinction? This is why muslims who don't go for this whole "scientific miracles" don't usually take scientific facts at face value, they prefer something that claims to be absolute, rather than what they claim is tentative. They would say that today's scientific fact is tomorrows joke and they usually cite something like Newtonian physics in the face of Quantum mechanics.


    I am just wondering why I have not heard this as a miracle from the quran. Because it seems very close to me to what we know about the number of the planets. In the Muslim belifes (not mine) all profits dreams are meant to be real. Yusif had a dream that all the 11 planets are bowing beofre him.

    I just got surprised that there are 9 planets (or eight if you take off Pluto) but if you say 9 counting Pluto, plus the Sun, plus the moon, then there are 11.

    No one by the way have mentioned this to me. I mean I was not in a debate with a muslim or anything. I am actually surprised that no one mentioned this before. i looked at Youtube for scientific Miracles of the Quran but did not find anything about this Yusif verse.
    ...
  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #23 - October 08, 2009, 09:39 PM
    It doesn't say anywhere that there are 11 planets

    It says that 11 planets bowed to him-this is ambiguous-even in Muslim times people knew that there were hundreds of planets just be looking up at stars-thus 11 planets bowing to him has no significance

    Plus this number 11 and this story is just plagirised from the old testament wherein Joseph had a dream where 11 sheaths of corn and 11 this and that bowed to him (signfiying his importance above his 11 other brothers)

    None of it matters.
    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #24 - October 08, 2009, 11:25 PM
    I thought a kawkab was a shooting star.
    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #25 - October 08, 2009, 11:59 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on October 08, 2009, 09:36 PM
    I just got surprised that there are 9 planets (or eight if you take off Pluto) but if you say 9 counting Pluto, plus the Sun, plus the moon, then there are 11.

    That's a slightly dodgy definition of "planet" if you're including the sun and the moon...
    In ancient times, there was knowledge of 7 planets (in Ibn Warraq's book he mentions a theory that the 3 quick and 4 slow trips around the Kaaba is based on pre-Islamic Arabic practice (3 inner planets, 4 outer planets), as they worshipped the stars, planets etc.
    Maybe you can start with the number 7 and work out where 11 came from?
  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #26 - October 09, 2009, 06:04 AM
    Quote from: hupla on October 08, 2009, 11:59 PM
    That's a slightly dodgy definition of "planet" if you're including the sun and the moon...
    In ancient times, there was knowledge of 7 planets (in Ibn Warraq's book he mentions a theory that the 3 quick and 4 slow trips around the Kaaba is based on pre-Islamic Arabic practice (3 inner planets, 4 outer planets), as they worshipped the stars, planets etc.
    Maybe you can start with the number 7 and work out where 11 came from?


    Thanks Hupla, i would be very grateful indeed if you could provide me with a reliable source about Ibn Waraka's knowledge of the stars. i was looking for this for a long time. I really need this. Actually, If you have any source that indicate Waraq Ibn Nofal was knowledgeable with not only religion, but also with science, you would have done a gr8 favor to me.
    ...
  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #27 - October 09, 2009, 03:02 PM
    Calm down guys, whether Kawkab means star or planet is irrelevant here. This verse refers to Joseph's(Yousuf) dream of 11 planets/stars and the sun and the moon prostrating to him which represents his father(moon), mother(sun) and 11 brothers(11 planets), which according to the Quran itself has been fulfilled later in his life

    "And he raised his parents upon the throne and they (the brothers) fell down in prostration before him, and he said: O my father! (yaa abati) this is the significance (tawil) of my vision of old; my Lord has indeed made it to be true; and He was indeed kind to me when He brought me forth from the prison and brought you from the desert after the Shaitan (Satan) had sown dissensions between me and my brothers, surely my Lord is benignant to whom He pleases; surely He is the Knowing, the Wise." (Qur'an 12:100)


    As regarding the actual meaning of Kawkab, in contemporary Arabic(MSA) it refers to planets and NOT stars. Not sure about the meaning in Classical Arabic and if it was any different.
    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #28 - October 09, 2009, 06:01 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on October 09, 2009, 06:04 AM
    Thanks Hupla, i would be very grateful indeed if you could provide me with a reliable source about Ibn Waraka's knowledge of the stars. i was looking for this for a long time. I really need this. Actually, If you have any source that indicate Waraq Ibn Nofal was knowledgeable with not only religion, but also with science, you would have done a gr8 favor to me.

    It's Ibn Warraq the guy who wrote "Why I am not a Muslim" rather than Ibn Waraka  - I'm afraid I no longer have a copy of the book, but he does reference the originator of the theory.  It's a knowledge of the planets rather than the stars as such though - the 7 planets were very well known in the ancient world (Egypt, Babylon, Greece, Rome - probably other places too).

    (The name Ibn Warraq was apparently historically used as a pseudonym in Islamic countries when one needed to hide one's identity when writing "inflammatory" materials.  I believe it means "son of a papermaker"- hence why it appears often)
  • Re: Quran mentions that the Planets are 11
     Reply #29 - October 09, 2009, 07:42 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on October 08, 2009, 09:13 PM
    I quoted the English Translation from the Website http://tanzil.info/

    But if you have read my previous post in the original Arabic Quran the verse says Kawakib and not Nojoom.



    Nopes, Kawakib = Planets..... Nojoom = Stars





    I think Aziz is right...  I was always familiar with 'kwiekeb' refering to stars.   Perhaps it refers to them as stars because of the way they shine in the sky...
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
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