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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam

 (Read 22952 times)
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  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #30 - October 13, 2009, 10:26 PM

    Prostitution of Muslim women was not allowed, but slaves or even non Muslims was allowed.

    How do you know? Sex between the master and his female slave could just be a special exception. Maybe unbelieving slaves were flogged for zina as well.

    A man can go unto his slave whenever he wants. She does not have to be married. Women captured in battle was used the very night. The Muslims were anxious as to whether the should use coitus interuptus but Muhammad said no go ahead because a child will be born regardless because it is Allah who will its.

    Yes, but that's unrelated to the prostitution verse.

    Obviously this means if they are not concerned about their chastity then its OK to be a pimp for them. But do not force them against their will.


    Hm. I don't think we have a case here. Can you prove from scripture that it was okay to have non-Muslim slave girls as prostitutes?

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  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #31 - October 13, 2009, 10:31 PM

    Thanks for clarifying the question of the status of children of slave women.

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  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #32 - October 14, 2009, 05:52 AM

    How do you know? Sex between the master and his female slave could just be a special exception. Maybe unbelieving slaves were flogged for zina as well.
    Yes, but that's unrelated to the prostitution verse.

    Hm. I don't think we have a case here. Can you prove from scripture that it was okay to have non-Muslim slave girls as prostitutes?



    Point taken. Prostitution is explicitly forbidden. But the way this verse was worded, so vaguely, one can extrapolate that because the slave girl was not concerned with her chastity and force was not required then there was no prohibition. That's the problem with the Qur'an and other religious texts, they can be interpreted in many different ways, giving much leeway.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #33 - October 14, 2009, 06:45 AM

    Point taken. Prostitution is explicitly forbidden. But the way this verse was worded, so vaguely, one can extrapolate that because the slave girl was not concerned with her chastity and force was not required then there was no prohibition. That's the problem with the Qur'an and other religious texts, they can be interpreted in many different ways, giving much leeway.


    Guys, when I was muslim, I used to search this site for answers. It's a fairly traditional site for sunni islam. Here is one possible interpretation out of many that they have put up here regarding slavery and sex etc. I'm not sure if you will find anything specific, but nevertheless there is a fair amount to go through.

    http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=1808&CATE=134
  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #34 - October 14, 2009, 01:29 PM

    Thanks Omaar. Will read it.

    In the debate I was referred to this site:
    http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/94840

    The author pretty much concedes that Islam allows Muslims to enslave their enemies after a war.

    Also see this:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukataba

    Quote
    The majority of Sunni authorities approved the manumission of all the "People of the Book", that is, Christians and Jews, but according to some jurists, especially among the Shi’a, only Muslim slaves should be liberated.


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  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #35 - October 14, 2009, 01:53 PM

    Thanks Omaar. Will read it.

    In the debate I was referred to this site:
    http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/94840

    The author pretty much concedes that Islam allows Muslims to enslave their enemies after a war.

    Also see this:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukataba



    What I tend to find with all these arguments and apologetics that muslims put forward for "their" version of slavery, the fallacy is the same, why set islam up against other religions in comparing slavery. Using excuses like treat them well, feed them and clothe them is well within the capacity of any self respecting humanist who cares for a fellow human. The issue has to with the ownership of another human being against what islam is proclaiming to be, which is the final and universal message to mankind from God. Like with anything else, it doesn't matter what spin the jurist deduces from the text whether quran or sunnah, the fact remains the same, those eternal word if they are to be taken that way still stand according to the muslims. All the jurists have done by conceding or squaring the circle is essentially admitting that slavery is bad in whatever way they choose to put it across. The verses about slavery etc will only ever make sense to them if they admit that the quran is a historical document and whatever it says is reflective of that time. Human compassion and reason has risen above this rotten institution. If muslims wish to stick to this "eternal message" then they need to see how these verses would fit in with the post enlightenment and post modernity values that we live with. Are they able to abbrogate these verses? If so what else, and is this a step they are willing to take?
  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #36 - October 14, 2009, 08:12 PM

    Thanks for the links guys. You're right Omaar, why try to justify a wrong by pointing out it was done more wrongly by somebody else? Seems a pathetic excuse.

    And the thing is they use all these hadiths to show examples of slaves being treated well by certain individuals. But if you use other hadiths from the same books to show another wrong, they tell you those are weak.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #37 - October 15, 2009, 06:03 AM

    Thanks for the links guys. You're right Omaar, why try to justify a wrong by pointing out it was done more wrongly by somebody else? Seems a pathetic excuse.

    And the thing is they use all these hadiths to show examples of slaves being treated well by certain individuals. But if you use other hadiths from the same books to show another wrong, they tell you those are weak.


    I've never bought the whole "well slavery is sanctioned by the bible!" line, even when I was a muslim. It sounded pathetic then, just as it does now. You know, if you are going to frame it against other eligions, then lets take it to it's next logical step and throw in Bahaism to see how it sees itself in front of that.
  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #38 - October 15, 2009, 06:26 PM

    By the way, for those who know German, here is my introduction thread at the Afghan discussion board: http://afghanpage.de/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=10300

    The debate got pretty large. Tongue

    The administrator there is pretty cool and relaxed. He doesn't appear like a Muslim to me, because he has a link to Edward Current's "An Atheist meets God" in his signature, and because he messaged me privately and said a few things about Muslims, atheism, humanism and science. His message indicates to me that he's pretty much a murtad. He didn't explicitly say it, though. He could just be a cultural Muslim.

    I also got a message form a girl explaining to me how she feels about Islam, God and life on this planet. She has always had doubts and could never believe everything wholeheartedly. Looks like she is some sort of deist now. Cool huh? I invited her to my German forum. Hasn't shown up yet. Oh well.

    Looks like I'm gonna stay there for a while and enjoy myself. grin12

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  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #39 - October 20, 2009, 09:23 PM

    Peace Aziz,

    Sorry I didn't reply earlier -- I suddenly got really busy with work. You asked me what my position is regarding Islam and slavery?

    I read the use of "slave" in the Qur'an both literally and, lets say, ironically. God is capable of great irony.

    Islam (specifically, Sufism) does not abolish slavery -- although it intimates we should try our best to be nice to one another. But as long as humans are alive, they will enslave each other, in some form or another.

    Thanks to humanism and progressive thinking, in the west we don't have slavery in front of our faces as we might have had 600 years ago. Nevertheless, slavery permeates our existence and is impossible to get rid of: the clothes we wear, the coffee we drink, etc are produced by what in the past would count as slaves. We can certainly try to improve their lot and be as kind and as charitable as possible. But wherever there are humans, there are egos, commanding selves, people who will set themselves up as rulers over slaves. To live in society (ANY society) is to be surrounded by slavery in some form. Even language and concepts take the form of slavery (slavery of one term to another: as pointed out by Hegel, democracy exists by virtue of the slavery of anarchy, the numbers exist by enslaving the concept of "nothing", etc).

    I would say the spiritual position is to do the best we can to give charity and fix things. But as long as we have politics and states (including any Islamic state), there will be some form of slavery.

    The Sufi position is -- yes, we should try to help people -- but the "shariah" regarding slavery is ironic, because it utilizes this unhappy prison of mastery/slavery that humans find themselves in -- and subverts the terminology itself so as to suggest how we can escape the prison -- not by transcending it -- but by finding the Nur/Light "within" the terminology.

    In this sense, the shariah gives an ironic recipe for how we can escape this prison. For example, when we say don't prostitute your slave girls, this refers to the slavery of language that I mean -- don't get all promiscuous in your ideologies and perspectives, linking everything up to everything else inside your head -- another way of putting it: don't go schizophrenic dealing with the horrible  mess humanity sometimes creates for itself. At that point, the shariah is giving a law for how the master "within" and the slave "within" should interact. We could keep going like this with other verses and narrations ... At other points, it indicates ultimately a kind of "transcendence" that can occur to through abandoning the master-slave relationship within (or without) and becoming an Abdullah, a slave of God.

    I say this is ironic because it takes the horrible situation of slavery in society, that we perceive all around us (even today within the comfort of the west) and subverts our perception, so we see -- yes, there is a relief from it all. The Qur'an (and other Abrahamic documents) do this a lot, particularly whenever you see some seemingly (spiritually) crazy laws.

    Maybe more later Smiley

    Love and Light,

    The Tailor


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  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #40 - October 20, 2009, 10:35 PM

    Salam tailor,

    Thanks for your reply. I say this kindly, but boy, you really like to see meanings in texts, which aren't there. You must have some kind of religious synesthesia. Tongue

    You are right that slavery exists in some form or another even today. Though it's definitely not as bad as real slavery, which also still exists in a few countries (like Mauritania.)

    You know what I find ironic? That Muslims think Islam came to slowly abolish slavery, yet it lasted for 1200 more years.

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  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #41 - October 20, 2009, 10:39 PM

    Tailor, do you accept the prophet used slaves and Allah approved of their usage?  If so, do you accept the prophet and the Quran as a perfect example of all time?

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  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #42 - October 20, 2009, 10:44 PM

    And one more question from me: Do you know that Islam allows acquiring new slaves from prisoners of war? Women and children are legitimate war booty, and men can expect sexual favours from their slave girls.

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  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #43 - October 20, 2009, 10:51 PM

    Can I answer that one for you Aziz  Wink

    And one more question from me: Do you know that Islam allows acquiring new slaves from prisoners of war?

    Slaves are books and prisoners of war are libraries.
    Quote
    Women and children are legitimate war booty, and men can expect sexual favours from their slave girls.

    war booty is your family, and sexual favours is knowledge and slave girls are scientific books

    Sorry Tailor, I jest, but am trying to make a point too.  Can you see how your interpretations can almost make a mockery of the religion itself?  How do you know you have the correct interpretation?  Why did God say he was clear/ why wasnt he?

    And last but not least, how do you really know that the Quran is just not man-made?

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  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #44 - October 21, 2009, 09:14 AM

    Peace all,

    Thanks for your replies -- I would like to respond in greater detail, but perhaps this note will suffice.

    IsLame's jest is quite close to reality: sexuality IS information. Not a metaphor: they ARE the same thing. If you follow much (atheist) European philosophy of the 20th century, this is pretty commonly accepted.

    I believe many of you guys are living this reality, but probably unconsciously. For example, I notice recently there was a post here regarding jerking off to an Iranian porn star's videos on the internet:
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=7135.0

    Actually, there are a LOT of posts about porn and jerking off in this forum Smiley Now, if we enter into a feminist critique of porn, we know that its status is one of slavery (often consensual, agreed slavery, but slavery nonetheless). I don't condemn it, I say it is permitted: there is a hadith about exactly this (regarding the practice of coitus interruptus on slaves, I'm sure it is the one you are thinking of -- but can bring it out if you want), wherein it is said -- yes, this is permitted.

    Porn is slavery. But, if you think about it carefully, what are you jerking off to exactly? 0's and 1's, transmitted over the internet. Information.

    Sexuality and slavery is information: those of you who elect to jerk off are living this reality Smiley And our narrations guide you through this, and do not condemn it, but lead you away from the dangers inherent within this situation (and other situations in life, all of which are some form of interaction with information, with the 0's and 1's of reality): in this way, Hound Dog Sufism will lead you ultimately ... to

    Love and Light,

    The Tailor

    (PS some references from philosophy -- pornography as both Speech/Language AND slavery from one of my old -- atheist -- teachers:
    http://web.mit.edu/langton/www/pubs/Scorekeeping.pdf
    http://web.mit.edu/langton/www/pubs/SubordinationSilence.pdf
    )

    PPS: The relevant verse of Quran and hadith again (so that you may wank away with impunity, but with the observation that to bring an Enlightened Soul out from the micro Male-Female intercourse of the Mind is better) ...

    Quote
    Narrated Ibn Muhairiz:
    I saw Abu Said and asked him about coitus interruptus. Abu Said said, "We went with Allah's Apostle, in the Ghazwa of Barli Al-Mustaliq and we captured some of the 'Arabs as captives, and the long separation from our wives was pressing us hard and we wanted to practice coitus interruptus. We asked Allah's Apostle (whether it was permissible). He said, "It is better for you not to do so. No soul, (that which Allah has) destined to exist, up to the Day of Resurrection, but will definitely come, into existence."
    (Bukhari 3, 46, 718)


    and

    Quote
    Marry off the single among you and those of your male and female
    slaves who are fit [for marriage]. If they are poor, God will provide
    for them from His bounty: God's bounty is infinite and He is all
    knowing. Those who are unable to marry should keep chaste until God
    gives them enough out of His bounty. If any of your slaves wish to pay
    for their freedom, make a contract with them accordingly, if you know
    they have good in them, and give them some of the wealth God has given
    you. Do not force your slave-girls into prostitution, when they
    themselves wish to remain honourable, in your quest for the short-term
    gains of this world, authough, if they are forced, God will be
    forgiving and merciful to them. (Qur'an 24:32-33)


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  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #45 - October 21, 2009, 12:08 PM

    What I am surprised about isn't necessarily the fact that there is no explicit mention in the Qur'an against slavery but how many Muslims refuse to acknowledge that not only were Muslims were involved with the slave trade, they were also the last to stop doing it.

    When I hear African Americans embracing Islam I look at them sideways and wonder whether they're sane.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #46 - October 21, 2009, 04:47 PM

    IsLame's jest is quite close to reality: sexuality IS information. Not a metaphor: they ARE the same thing.


     mysmilie_977

    I made that up in 30 seconds, does that make me an enlightened Sufi too  Wink

    Can you answer these questions for me which I think you missed :

    Tailor, do you accept the prophet used slaves and Allah approved of their usage?  If so, do you accept the prophet and the Quran as a perfect example of all time?

    Can you see how your interpretations can almost make a mockery of the religion itself?  How do you know you have the correct interpretation?  Why did God say he was clear/ why wasnt he?

    And last but not least, how do you really know that the Quran is just not man-made?


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  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #47 - October 21, 2009, 10:09 PM

    I made that up in 30 seconds, does that make me an enlightened Sufi too  Wink


    Enlightenment is often accidental, unconscious, momentary and even more often missed. Nevertheless, it underlies all Jouissance and laughter we gain, so I am thankful for your enlightenment and laughter, and the bawdy Truth of your brethren in the other post regarding the delectable Aylar Lie.

    Think about how your humorous comment runs into a deep perception of your brother apostates' wanking in this forum: there is profundity within everything, even in your humour and their jism on monitor screens. But after the jism has dried, and after the laughter has quieted, do we keep the Truth close to us? The Sufis are those for whom the laughter continues after the porn show finishes (as, by definition, it must, in climax).

    Tailor, do you accept the prophet used slaves and Allah approved of their usage?  If so, do you accept the prophet and the Quran as a perfect example of all time?


    I accept that he had slaves, just as you and I have slaves (we -- everyone, even Kings -- cannot "physically"/"socially" escape the master-slave system -- the only way we can do this is to live as a naked hermit). The Buddha was an exception. But the King -- he was ultimately an illuminated management consultant, and did not "give it all away", he just understood completely both how to Love Me Tender and the commandment Not to Step on Blue Suede Shoes. He STILL lived within the system and played the role of commander in the war:
    http://images.easyart.com/i/prints/rw/en_easyart/lg/8/7/Elvis-Presley-at-press-conference-in-Germany-March-1960-MirrorPix-87004.jpg
    But rumour has it that he spent most of THAT time making love to 12 or 13 chicks in a go, hyped up some form of stimulant.

    I consider this to be a good example for the kids to follow, yes, cause I dig on the Rock and Roll lifestyle, man. I accept that, for puritans, his swagger and machismo, the fact that the girls flock to him so ... it's scary and they disapprove. And yes, some wierdos try to transform him into a celebate Stalin (or Victor Hugo) figure, but nevertheless: I've bought his album and dig the records. Yes, I admit I would like to follow his example and make such music.

    Regarding Allah's approval ... Allah does not approve nor disapprove of a whole bunch of stuff that we humans get up to, but nevertheless in the CONCEPT of master and slave there is much meaning to be gained -- in particular, the only escape possible.

    Can you see how your interpretations can almost make a mockery of the religion itself?  How do you know you have the correct interpretation?  Why did God say he was clear/ why wasnt he?

    And last but not least, how do you really know that the Quran is just not man-made?


    Yes, thanks mainly to my blog, I've got all kinds of threats and lesser bad vibes from people who claim to hold the keys to the Qur'an. They claim that I make a mockery of the religion. But I say that it is they who mock and obfuscate! If you saw things through my (Sufi beer glass eyes) things would be reversed and everything I say of Qur'an and hadith would be clear as day, and everything THEY say would take a LOT of thinking to even appreciate as an admissible potential interpretation. That's how drunk the Tailor is. But wine is Truth. Wine is Truth. Wine is Truth.

    How do I know that my interpretation is correct?

    I could give some intellectual arguments -- I tend to give them to my Sufi brethren, because they are so anti-intellectual that I like to wind them up by citing logic and philosophy of language. For example, I could say that I know I am correct because the Revelation is a process of uncovering within each sign (everything we read and everything we perceive) an illuminated reference to how we read the sign itself: this self-reference, a reference that refers to perception, is the "correct" way of reading, and leads simultaneously (via Heidegger and Derrida) to both self-awareness and God-consciousness. (This is in my blog).

    But yknow, I am really a True Blue Sufi, and ultimately, my faith in my interpretation derives from a personal experience, where -- well, basically -- the Prophet told me this is so. That's a shocking thing to say for a Muslim. Shows you how dire the state of the Ummah is. In the past we were having visions aplenty. And the Christians -- well, they got the spirit, though we know from Dhul Quranain that there are dangers also in the visonary. If we were Christian apostates, we'd have  a different discussion as visionary experiences would be de rigueur:  Sarah Palin and George Bush apparently speak to Jesus and and the Holy Ghost on a regular basis. So I would not expect you (or anyone) to convert to the Hound Dog way on the basis of my personal experience. Nevertheless, historically, this is exactly what happened: and certain Sufis remain a lineage to that, based on the Real King, not a restaurant impersonator such as myself.

    Why didn't God say it clearly? Things weren't that bad under the pagans: they were just as bad before as they were after. God can't change a state: only a state of mind. And this change of mind happens through learning jihad-ninja tactics according to the Drunken Hound Dog Aikido. Hi-yah!

    Love and Light,

    The Tailor

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #48 - October 21, 2009, 10:38 PM

    And this change of mind happens through learning jihad-ninja tactics according to the Drunken Hound Dog Aikido. Hi-yah!



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  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #49 - October 21, 2009, 10:40 PM



    Because I count the brethren of the fire here as my friends, this sparring is practice and in good humour.

    But dread an Obi-Wan/Darth Vader moment from the real enemy ...

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #50 - October 21, 2009, 11:03 PM

    The reason I dont agree with your views, is bcos I dont think your translation is the way Allah intended.  Most Muslims take a predominantly literalist view of the Quran, so in effect you are assuming Allah got it wrong.

    I checked your blog which is interesting reading by the way (even if I dont understand half of it)

    I particularly liked your response to 'Abdallah al-Sufi' here http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/about/

    I think its the best way to handle people like that - they are never going to come round, so the best way to leave them is with a pleasant taste in their mouth and if they ever change their mind, then they know where you (or your site) is..

    For what its worth if it was a choice between literalist Islam or the Sufi version, then I'd go for the yours..

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  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #51 - October 21, 2009, 11:04 PM



    Because I count the brethren of the fire here as my friends, this sparring is practice and in good humour.

    But dread an Obi-Wan/Darth Vader moment from the real enemy ...


    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #52 - October 22, 2009, 05:55 AM

    The reason I dont agree with your views, is bcos I dont think your translation is the way Allah intended.  Most Muslims take a predominantly literalist view of the Quran, so in effect you are assuming Allah got it wrong.


    +1. I think the way it has been practitised and interpreted over the past 1400 years is probably the closest to the way the early generations looked at it. When I talk about the early generation I talk about the four schools of Sunni Islam and the Shia.

    Quote
    For what its worth if it was a choice between literalist Islam or the Sufi version, then I'd go for the yours..


    +1. However, like the 19th century existentialist philosopher Soren Kierkegaard puts it, that faith is something subjective and is a choice you make, which includes his famous phrase "leap of faith". Although he was a christian, he said that most christians had a herd mentality and generally followed the crowd rather than really having belief.

    He has had his critics and I disagree with his leap of faith statement, nevertheless I agree with him when he says that faith is completely subjective and *only* true for the individual concerned. Saying that though, it says nothing about whether or not it is actually true. The monotheism's usually impose themselves upon the masses as though it is some sort of objective truth.

    Here is something about Soren Kierkegaard:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B8ren_Kierkegaard
  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #53 - October 22, 2009, 06:29 AM

    +1. I think the way it has been practitised and interpreted over the past 1400 years is probably the closest to the way the early generations looked at it. When I talk about the early generation I talk about the four schools of Sunni Islam and the Shia.


    I agree. But, as you mention Sunnis and Shias, there are quite (on the face of it) contradictory reports on practice and outlook coming from their earliest sources. I employ all these early sources in my thought, giving them pretty much equal status to one another. What results is a picture of major dischord between the members of the early generation, during, but even more so, after, the Prophet's lifetime. Not all roses at all: more like a sea of egotism, backbiting and spirituo-political competition. Together with some really important things, often from the same people. One member of the sahaba is depicted as a demon one day and an angel the next: extremes of our human condition.

    I'd argue that traditional Islam often simply glamorizes these early narrations -- or else falls into political schism and fitnah -- and therefore misses the point about the behaviour of the earliest practioners. They were not saints: they were extremes (often in one body). For this (let's call it a textual criticism) reason, I say that people do get the early days wrong -- because they don't read it all carefully enough. I've got my other reasons as well, enumerated above, of course.

    +1. However, like the 19th century existentialist philosopher Soren Kierkegaard puts it, that faith is something subjective and is a choice you make, which includes his famous phrase "leap of faith". Although he was a christian, he said that most christians had a herd mentality and generally followed the crowd rather than really having belief.


    I (obviously) have a lot of time for Kierkegaard.

    Of course for him, the implication is the subjective/objective distinction needs to be abandoned. This doesn't mean we need to abandon empirical sciences, for example -- but it does mean we need to abandon the objectivist philosophy of science that has become quite common today, amongst atheists and religious folk alike. To see a chair (or a film of an enslaved porn star) as 0's and 1's of my perception, rather than an objective reality. Everything is information, etc. I can't see either Richard Dawkins or the Sheikh of Saudi either coming round to such a "Matrix" type of position, which must be a precondition for a Kierkegaardian leap of faith (otherwise it would always be insincere).

    Thanks for your responses: my recent thread participation here has been a lot of fun for me!

    Love and Light,

    The Tailor

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #54 - October 22, 2009, 07:06 AM

    This looks like a scholarly work on the topic of slavery and Islam:

    Islam and the Abolition of Slavery
    by William Gervase Clarence-Smith (Author)
    http://www.amazon.com/Abolition-Slavery-William-Gervase-Clarence-Smith/dp/0195221516/

    "Contemporary debates about Muslim slavery occur in a context of fierce polemics between Islam and other belief systems. While Islamic groups had an ambivalent and generally muted impact on the legal repudiation of slavery, a growing religious commitment to abolition was essential if legislation was to be enforced in the twentieth century. Drawing on examples from the whole 'abode' of Islam, from the Philipines to Senegal and from the Caucasus to South Africa, Gervase Clarence-Smith ranges across the history of Islam, paying particular attention to the period from the late 18th century to the present. He shows that 'sharia-minded' attempts to achieve closer adherence to the holy law restricted slavery, even if they did not end it. However, the sharia itself was not as clear about the legality of servitude as is usually assumed, and progressive scholars within the schools of law might even have achieved full emancipation over the long term. The impact of mystical and millenarian Islam was contradictory, in some cases providing a supportive agenda of freedom, but in other cases causing great surges of enslavement. The revisionist Islam that emerged from the 18th century was divided. 'Fundamentalists' stressed the literal truth of the founding texts of Islam, and thus found it difficult to abandon slavery completely. 'Modernists,' appealing to the spirit rather than to the letter of scripture, spawned the most radical opponents of slavery, notably Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan, the Islamic William Wilberforce. Once slavery had disappeared, it was the Sufi mystics who did most to integrate former slaves socially and religiously, avoiding the deep social divisions that have plagued Western societies in the aftermath of abolition. In this important new book, Clarence-Smith provides the first general survey of the Islamic debate on slavery. Sweeping away entrenched myths, he hopes to stimulate more research on this neglected topic, thereby contributing to healing the religious rifts that threaten to tear our world apart in the 21st century."

    I'm in Pakistan right now, so I can't order and read this, but someone ought to read it and post a summary/book review here at some point.
  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #55 - October 22, 2009, 07:18 AM

    I agree. But, as you mention Sunnis and Shias, there are quite (on the face of it) contradictory reports on practice and outlook coming from their earliest sources. I employ all these early sources in my thought, giving them pretty much equal status to one another. What results is a picture of major dischord between the members of the early generation, during, but even more so, after, the Prophet's lifetime. Not all roses at all: more like a sea of egotism, backbiting and spirituo-political competition. Together with some really important things, often from the same people. One member of the sahaba is depicted as a demon one day and an angel the next: extremes of our human condition.


    No doubt, the sunni and shia have their own interpretation of the historical events that took place in early islam, with each of them bringing along some sort of daleel. The only thing one can make of it, is that one of these two groups is clearly mistaken about what actually happened and with no way of falsifying one or the other. The hadith literature and sira in this regard from both sides clearly presents a polemic taking place.

    Quote
    I'd argue that traditional Islam often simply glamorizes these early narrations -- or else falls into political schism and fitnah -- and therefore misses the point about the behaviour of the earliest practioners. They were not saints: they were extremes (often in one body). For this (let's call it a textual criticism) reason, I say that people do get the early days wrong -- because they don't read it all carefully enough. I've got my other reasons as well, enumerated above, of course.


    I like your explanation, it's honest and true to the human nature, rather than trying to romanticize the early community, which often the traditional guys and even people in groups like HT put across.

    Quote
    I (obviously) have a lot of time for Kierkegaard.


    I have a lot of time for all the existentialist philosophers.


    Quote
    Of course for him, the implication is the subjective/objective distinction needs to be abandoned. This doesn't mean we need to abandon empirical sciences, for example -- but it does mean we need to abandon the objectivist philosophy of science that has become quite common today, amongst atheists and religious folk alike. To see a chair (or a film of an enslaved porn star) as 0's and 1's of my perception, rather than an objective reality. Everything is information, etc. I can't see either Richard Dawkins or the Sheikh of Saudi either coming round to such a "Matrix" type of position, which must be a precondition for a Kierkegaardian leap of faith (otherwise it would always be insincere).


    Yes, some of what we think such as morals and ethics are situational and subjective. Empirical sciences shouldn't be abandoned. But science concerns itself with hypothesis and evidence. It's not making claims to absolute truth the way religion does. It's presenting you evidence, you take it or leave it. It's not saying accept or else. This is what I mean when I say claim to objective reality. Islam claims to be an objective reality alongside other equally faith based claims to objective reality. The nature of religious text whether it's Judeo/Christian or Islamic is that they are always open to multiple interpretations, always have and always will be. The trouble is though, is that the orthodox have put in certain criteria for interpretation, such as rhetoric, logic, grammar and a thorough knowledge of Arabic. Without these things, any interpretation outside it counts for nothing as far as they are concerned. Also remember "ijmah", without this, it remains completely subjective. Also remember interpretations are simply attempts at approximations, it tells you nothing about what Allah is actually conveying to you in the Quran or what the Prophet means in the hadith.

    Quote
    Thanks for your responses: my recent thread participation here has been a lot of fun for me!
    Love and Light,

    The Tailor



    Likewise, I enjoy your posts.
  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #56 - October 22, 2009, 07:36 AM

    I particularly liked your response to 'Abdallah al-Sufi' here http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/about/

    I think its the best way to handle people like that - they are never going to come round, so the best way to leave them is with a pleasant taste in their mouth and if they ever change their mind, then they know where you (or your site) is..

    Yikes, I just saw this. Hadn't been checking Brother Musa's blog for a while. The 'stumblingmystic' he's referring to is of course yours truly. I couldn't resist leaving some replies there.

    Overall I remain convinced that Islam started off as a spiritual movement, but became a political movement, and that the Prophet Muhammad himself was responsible for that politicization (though it also had to do with the culture and circumstances of that era and geographical region). The aftereffects of this remain evident today as well.
  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #57 - October 22, 2009, 12:05 PM

    But Ned, you speak as though he was an Imaginary figure, like you and I are. When in fact he was Real, as Real as Arjuna or King Arthur. No?

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #58 - October 22, 2009, 12:53 PM

    Sort of off topic, I read this from Jewcy, thought of Tailor.

    Many Sabbateans believed that the redemption had come, and our job was to experience it now, by deliberately transgressing the laws of the old regime -- especially regarding sex. One of their notorious rituals involved having a young girl dress as the Torah, her breasts exposed, while (male) devotees danced around her kissing her breasts. This was, in a sense, a recorporealization. The Torah is itself a stand in for the Shechinah, the feminine aspect of God (a/k/a the Goddess): She wears a beautiful velour dress and a crown, and then at a special time, we take the dress off, open her parchment legs, and with our phallic pointer open her to reveal the secrets that lie between them.


    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Hadiths and Verses about Slavery in Islam
     Reply #59 - October 22, 2009, 01:29 PM

    But Ned, you speak as though he was an Imaginary figure, like you and I are. When in fact he was Real, as Real as Arjuna or King Arthur. No?

    Actually, no. I think he was an imperfect vessel, and no amount of symbol-games changes that simple observation. Only the Real is Real ... the rest is a play of masks and appearances. Some appearances are more purified than others, but appearances are still appearances.

    And even the most enlightened being is still limited by their embodiment, however purified it may be. I never claimed Arjuna or even Krishna were perfect either. Much as I love the Bhagavad-Gita, I would never say every literal word of it is timeless and applicable for all times, nor do I tie myself up into intellectual knots trying to change the meanings of shlokas that clearly sound patriarchal or casteist. The Gita, for all its wisdom, obviously presupposes a premodern social order that is invalid and inapplicable in this humanistic era.

    Why Muslims get so defensive when one points out such obvious and simple things is a mystery for me.
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