Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad

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- gatty
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #570 - November 24, 2009, 10:07 AM

Homer : Thanks, but you forgot about 3:86.

3: 85 And whoever desires a RELIGION other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
3: 86 How shall Allah Guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Messenger was true and that Clear Signs had come unto them ? but Allah guides not a people unjust.
3:87 They are those whose recompense is that on them (rests) the Curse of Allah, of the angels, and of all mankind.
3:88 They will abide therein (فِيهَا). Neither will their torment be lightened, nor will it be delayed or postponed (for a while).

Why cant you see that those verses dont talk about "Non Muslims", but those verses are all about Muslims who said syahadat and then trying to seek from other religion (Christianity & Judaism). And those verses dont say anything about Hell since when فِيهَا means "Hell" ? In my opinion, فِيهَا refer to لَعْنَةَ in 3:87 (curse/"unfortunity"?) and yeah that "curse" will naturally come upon people who loosed all spiritual good in them (ofc the will get disadvantage in the hereafter, it's natural "karmaic" law).

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #571 - November 24, 2009, 10:10 AM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 09:45 AM
I never said no one will go to hell :p (and i honestly cant see what "hell" exactly is, is it a planet/a dimension/a star/etc it's beyond my senses)

35:36 and 21:39 sound like when kafeer jin's burnt by human, so it's possible if God burn kafeer human's soul, and it's natural (eye for an eye/karma law/actions-reactions/etc). Of course it probably wont make sense to you. And like i said disbelievers dont equal "Non Muslims".

Are all Non Muslims disbelievers ? No the arent, infact some can fit the definition of people-who-believe.
So who are disbelievers ? Anyone in opposite with definition of believers mention in 2:3-5 about "who are the Believers".

3. Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.
4. And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.
5. These are on a right course from their Lord and these it is that shall be successful.

No one`s asking you to see what hell is. It;s in the Quran. The boiling water, the regenerating skin, the pain, blah blah blah. That`s clear. or do you think it`s a metaphor? And I dont know what you`re talking about- kafir jinns burnt by human.

If you must believe in the previous scriptures(bibles) and the quran to be a believer then ex muslims who turn buddhist will burn in hell, no? You said 3 85 is about Muslims who seek a religion other than islam. Muslims who convert to xtianity are doing this so where do they stand? The path to god entails believing in the quran-being a muslim- you cant disbelieve in the quran and make it to heaven becasue then you are believing in God`s final revelation. Yes there are verses where it says to Jews and Christians to belive in their respective revelations, but there are more that say that those who disbelieve in the quran will taste the fire. This is giant friggin contradiction. And Homer, you`re right- the quran is giant fuckin mish mash of nonsense. My head hurts .

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #572 - November 24, 2009, 10:13 AM

Quote
Homer : Thanks, but you forgot about 3:86.

I didnt forget it...I just said it was 'filler', so I spare the space.

3: 86 How shall Allah Guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Messenger was true and that Clear Signs had come unto them ? but Allah guides not a people unjust.

Quote
Why cant you see that those verses dont talk about "Non Muslims", but those verses are all about Muslims who said syahadat and then trying to seek from other religion (Christianity & Judaism).

Uhm...Those people would be 'Non Muslims' then. I honestly dont get your point. So what? I'm not allowed to not believe muhammed talked to angles, but the pope is?
Quote
And those verses dont say anything about Hell since when فِيهَا means "Hell" ? In my opinion, فِيهَا refer to لَعْنَةَ (curse/"unfortinity"?) and yeah that "curse" will naturally come upon people who all spiritual good in them.
3:87 They are those whose recompense is that on them (rests) the Curse of Allah, of the angels, and of all mankind.
3:88 They will abide therein (فِيهَا). Neither will their torment be lightened, nor will it be delayed or postponed (for a while).

Yes, I'm sorry...How could I confuse unending torment and curses for hell....(sorry for the sarcasm...just the way I talk)

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #573 - November 24, 2009, 10:16 AM

damn that seal on my heart that is preventing me from understanding what the frick gaddy is talking about!

Anyway, I going to play Sim City instead....because this is going to go nowhere.

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #574 - November 24, 2009, 10:19 AM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 10:07 AM
Homer : Thanks, but you forgot about 3:86.

3: 85 And whoever desires a RELIGION other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
3: 86 How shall Allah Guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Messenger was true and that Clear Signs had come unto them ? but Allah guides not a people unjust.
3:87 They are those whose recompense is that on them (rests) the Curse of Allah, of the angels, and of all mankind.
3:88 They will abide therein (فِيهَا). Neither will their torment be lightened, nor will it be delayed or postponed (for a while).

Why cant you see that those verses dont talk about "Non Muslims", but those verses are all about Muslims who said syahadat and then trying to seek from other religion (Christianity & Judaism). And those verses dont say anything about Hell since when فِيهَا means "Hell" ? In my opinion, فِيهَا refer to لَعْنَةَ in 3:87 (curse/"unfortunity"?) and yeah that "curse" will naturally come upon people who loosed all spiritual good in them (ofc the will get disadvantage in the hereafter, it's natural "karmaic" law).

Hmmm, a religion other than islam....oh wait. I just got your point. Atheism isn't a religion so its got nothing to do with irreligious disbelievers. Gotcha`. But what is this disadvantage. As far as the Quran cares to explain, one of two things will happen to you-
1- you go to hell and 2- you go to heaven. I dont really think you can `lose` and go to heaven. Or do just get less houris than everyone else?

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #575 - November 24, 2009, 10:21 AM

Quote
No one`s asking you to see what hell is. It;s in the Quran. The boiling water, the regenerating skin, the pain, blah blah blah. That`s clear. or do you think it`s a metaphor?

Those could be metaphor and those could be real, so i dont know (cos ive never been there). But there's a verse about "Hills that talk", i thought it was a metaphor but somehow it wasnt cos me (and my group at that time) had talked to guardian jin of some hills (and i dont expect you to believe me either).

Quote
And I dont know what you`re talking about- kafir jinns burnt by human. Thinking hard

Of course not i knew you probably wouldnt understand that.

Quote
If you must believe in the previous scriptures(bibles) and the quran to be a believer then ex muslims who turn buddhist will burn in hell, no? You said 3 85 is about Muslims who seek a religion other than islam. Muslims who convert to xtianity are doing this so where do they stand? The path to god entails believing in the quran-being a muslim- you cant disbelieve in the quran and make it to heaven becasue then you are believing in God`s final revelation. Yes there are verses where it says to Jews and Christians to belive in their respective revelations, but there are more that say that those who disbelieve in the quran will taste the fire. This is giant friggin contradiction. And Homer, you`re right- the quran is giant fuckin mish mash of nonsense. My head hurts

No, Buddhism isnt a religion, it's a spirituality. Religions in Quran are only Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam). So if a muslim can seek spirituality from Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Paganism ?, etc i dont see it's wrong at all Besides "Shalah" i dont think it's wrong to Meditate like the budhist.

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #576 - November 24, 2009, 10:23 AM

Quote from: Angel54 on November 24, 2009, 10:10 AM
And Homer, you`re right- the quran is giant fuckin mish mash of nonsense. My head hurts .

Yep, that the trouble with having real debates about what it 'really really really means'.....because it is like debating over the real meaning of what the crazy guy in the bus station is rambling about.

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #577 - November 24, 2009, 10:26 AM

So gatty are you some sort of psychic?

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #578 - November 24, 2009, 10:27 AM

Gatty, are you Javanese?
I'll bet dollars to Donuts you're Javanese

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #579 - November 24, 2009, 10:31 AM

Quote from: Homer on November 24, 2009, 10:13 AM
I didnt forget it...I just said it was 'filler', so I spare the space.

3: 86 How shall Allah Guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Messenger was true and that Clear Signs had come unto them ? but Allah guides not a people unjust.

Uhm...Those people would be 'Non Muslims' then. I honestly dont get your point. So what? I'm not allowed to not believe muhammed talked to angles, but the pope is?
Yes, I'm sorry...How could I confuse unending torment and curses for hell....(sorry for the sarcasm...just the way I talk)

"Those who reject faith" means disbelievers, and not all Non Muslims are disbelievers (read 2:3-5 that i just posted earlier). You or Pope can disbelieve Muhammad talk to angel, Jin created by God, God's existence, so on; and if the consequence could be some place called "Hell" thats just naturally the system (like karma itself).

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #580 - November 24, 2009, 10:32 AM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 10:21 AM
Those could be metaphor and those could be real, so i dont know (cos ive never been there). But there's a verse about "Hills that talk", i thought it was a metaphor but somehow it wasnt cos me (and my group at that time) had talked to guardian jin of some hills (and i dont expect you to believe me either).
Of course not i knew you probably wouldnt understand that.
No, Buddhism isnt a religion, it's a spirituality. Religions in Quran are only Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam). So if a muslim can seek spirituality from Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Paganism ?, etc i dont see it's wrong at all Besides "Shalah" i dont think it's wrong to Meditate like the budhist.

Fine, buddhism`s not a religion. What about scientology? No, it didnt exist at the time, but now you`re restricting the quran to its time. In which case screw cuz its got no relevance to us now. The quran aint right because of jinns. plenty of religions and tribe that predate islam talk about the same damn thing.
And if you`re so sure Im not gonna `get it`, then odds are, it`s not really a good way to get your point across. Just sayin`.

Ummm, religion in the quran is not just the three and i thought before you said that islam wasnt abrahamic. maybe i misread you. But whatever, seek spirituality all you want from wherever. Being a Muslim= believing there`s one god and believing Muhammad is the last prophet of god, or am I wrong?

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #581 - November 24, 2009, 10:37 AM

Quote from: ras111 on November 24, 2009, 10:26 AM
So gatty are you some sort of psychic?

Im not a psychic, but some people said im indigo generation (i personally dont believe the definition, i just believe some people are "a glitch in universe" so can witness the unseen), so sometimes i can see/touch/hear stuffs that only me & people like me able to see at once. Sometimes i dreamt what happen the next days, but it's very rarely happen (and more vivid when i was "pure"/in childhood).

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #582 - November 24, 2009, 10:41 AM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 10:31 AM
"Those who reject faith" means disbelievers, and not all Non Muslims are disbelievers (read 2:3-5 that i just posted earlier). You or Pope can disbelieve Muhammad talk to angel, Jin created by God, God's existence, so on; and if the consequence could be some place called "Hell" thats just naturally the system (like karma itself).

You speak of this `system` as if it operates independently of anyhting. As if it must just be. God could easily choose not to burn poeple in hell for an eternity. It`s his free (ill) will and omnipotence that cause hell to exist. He could just as easily zap people out of existence and leave it at that, but no, why shouldn`t people burn forever for not making the right decision based on shoddy information? Muhammad`s perfect, Allah`s merciful and all that jazz . excuse the sarcasm.

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #583 - November 24, 2009, 10:42 AM

Omfg, I just saw a youtube vid where Kim is referred to as "The late KimDonesia" she's not dead dammit.

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #584 - November 24, 2009, 10:42 AM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 10:31 AM
"Those who reject faith" means disbelievers, and not all Non Muslims are disbelievers (read 2:3-5 that i just posted earlier). You or Pope can disbelieve Muhammad talk to angel, Jin created by God, God's existence, so on; and if the consequence could be some place called "Hell" thats just naturally the system (like karma itself).

OK......forgeting the hell stuff for a sec.
"not all Non Muslims are disbelievers (read 2:3-5 that i just posted earlier)"
Those people in 2:3-5 are muslims....remember how Isa and his disciples were muslims, and Musa was a muslim, and so forth and so on. They must 'believe what was revealed' as in the 'original' (the revealed) Injīl, and so forth, remember. They must do prayers, and believe in Judgement day.

why am I still here?

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #585 - November 24, 2009, 10:43 AM

Quote from: awais on November 24, 2009, 10:42 AM
Omfg, I just saw a youtube vid where Kim is referred to as "The late KimDonesia" she's not dead dammit.

Why are you trying to change the subject back. I forgot this thing as even about KIm lol. She prob stopped reading 10 pgs ago.

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #586 - November 24, 2009, 10:43 AM

Quote from: xoBadr on November 23, 2009, 09:10 PM
lol.

Apology accepted. Now don't do it again.

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #587 - November 24, 2009, 10:44 AM

Quote from: Homer on November 24, 2009, 10:42 AM
OK......forgeting the hell stuff for a sec.
"not all Non Muslims are disbelievers (read 2:3-5 that i just posted earlier)"
Those people in 2:3-5 are muslims....remember how Isa and his disciples were muslims, and Musa was a muslim, and so forth and so on. They must 'believe what was revealed' as in the 'original' (the revealed) Injīl, and so forth, remember. They must do prayers, and believe in Judgement day.

why am I still here?

What happened to simcity?

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #588 - November 24, 2009, 10:44 AM

Quote from: Angel54 on November 24, 2009, 10:32 AM
Fine, buddhism`s not a religion. What about scientology? No, it didnt exist at the time, but now you`re restricting the quran to its time. In which case screw cuz its got no relevance to us now. The quran aint right because of jinns. plenty of religions and tribe that predate islam talk about the same damn thing.
And if you`re so sure Im not gonna `get it`, then odds are, it`s not really a good way to get your point across. Just sayin`.

Ummm, religion in the quran is not just the three and i thought before you said that islam wasnt abrahamic. maybe i misread you. But whatever, seek spirituality all you want from wherever. Being a Muslim= believing there`s one god and believing Muhammad is the last prophet of god, or am I wrong?

To me Scientology's created by human, so i recognize it as spirituality/cult/sect rather than religion. And clearly "Religions" in Quran were restricted to Abrahamaic religion. Yes im Javanese (but im not Kejawen).

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #589 - November 24, 2009, 10:44 AM

Quote from: Angel54 on November 24, 2009, 10:43 AM
Why are you trying to change the subject back. I forgot this thing as even about KIm lol. She prob stopped reading 10 pgs ago.

This is bigger than Kim, Damn it!

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #590 - November 24, 2009, 10:46 AM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 10:44 AM
Yes im Javanese (but im not Kejawen).

Did I call that or what

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #591 - November 24, 2009, 10:46 AM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 10:37 AM
Im not a psychic, but some people said im indigo generation (i personally dont believe the definition, i just believe some people are "a glitch in universe" so can witness the unseen), so sometimes i can see/touch/hear stuffs that only me & people like me able to see at once. Sometimes i dreamt what happen the next days, but it's very rarely happen (and more vivid when i was "pure"/in childhood).

You do know that it is not extraordinary for children to 'see things' that are not there don't you? Their minds can make up characters and people, and their apparitions become less frequent as they grow older until they grow out of it.

The mind is a very powerful simulator

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #592 - November 24, 2009, 10:47 AM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 10:37 AM
Im not a psychic, but some people said im indigo generation (i personally dont believe the definition, i just believe some people are "a glitch in universe" so can witness the unseen), so sometimes i can see/touch/hear stuffs that only me & people like me able to see at once.

Stop Lying.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #593 - November 24, 2009, 10:48 AM

Yes, `clearly`. Mubeen. Gotcha. And `to you`does not make things so just because you want it to be. What about Bahaism. Plenty of religions claim to come from God. Why believe Islam did?

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #594 - November 24, 2009, 10:48 AM

Quote from: Homer on November 24, 2009, 10:46 AM

Clearly the old pre islamic or pagan beliefs there have not died out completely.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #595 - November 24, 2009, 10:51 AM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 10:37 AM
Im not a psychic, but some people said im indigo generation (i personally dont believe the definition, i just believe some people are "a glitch in universe" so can witness the unseen), so sometimes i can see/touch/hear stuffs that only me & people like me able to see at once. Sometimes i dreamt what happen the next days, but it's very rarely happen (and more vivid when i was "pure"/in childhood).

As a child I used to be like this too.

But when I grew older and studied human development and psychology....I understood why that was the case.

Nothing to do with the supernatural. It's the way that our brain develop.

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #596 - November 24, 2009, 10:51 AM

Quote from: Baal on November 24, 2009, 10:47 AM
Stop Lying.

Calm down. Perhaps she's not lying. Perhaps she simply does not know what hallucinations are, and what the mind is capable of doing. I wonder what she would be like on mescaline...

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #597 - November 24, 2009, 10:52 AM

Quote from: Rubaiyat on November 24, 2009, 10:51 AM
As a child I used to be like this too.

Fascinating... what did you experience?

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #598 - November 24, 2009, 10:53 AM

Na, its cool, I get her now...dees my peeps

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #599 - November 24, 2009, 10:56 AM

Quote from: Homer on November 24, 2009, 10:42 AM
OK......forgeting the hell stuff for a sec.
"not all Non Muslims are disbelievers (read 2:3-5 that i just posted earlier)"
Those people in 2:3-5 are muslims....remember how Isa and his disciples were muslims, and Musa was a muslim, and so forth and so on. They must 'believe what was revealed' as in the 'original' (the revealed) Injīl, and so forth, remember. They must do prayers, and believe in Judgement day.

why am I still here?

Isa, Musa, and their disciples were mentioned in 2:3. You forget about the Sabians and believer of the unseen, those who pray, those who do good deed for the others who were mentioned in 2:2. Those people are the people who believe and fear the One God (Allah/Yahweh/Sang Hyang Widhi/whatever you call it).

Thats why in 2:62 even if someone believes in "the unseen", if someone's Christian or a Jew, if he believe in the One God, believe that all our "treasures" in this earth is mortal and will vanquish in the judgement day, and do good in life, Allah said "Them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve".

http://www.quran-islam.org
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